[I am.]

Quote from: Jury on March 22, 2005, 08:34:43 AM

4. Jesus Christ Himself didn't exist in the beginning. He didn't exist before He was born. He was proclaimed as "the firstborn to all creations" because He was FOREKNOWN by God before the foundation of the world.

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

5. According to the Bible, there is only ONE Creator - the Father. Since the Father purposed everything for Christ, He [Jesus] became the sole reason why God, the Creator, the Father, created everything.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Those passages do not prove that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. Jesus was born after Abraham. Being a descendant and a Seed to Abraham - that means AFTER. So why did Jesus said, "before Abraham was born I am" ?

As I said, Jesus Christ was called the "firstborn to all creations" ... but not literally born first. In what manner then? Apostles proclaimed "Jesus was FOREKNOWN" before the foundation of the world. If Jesus Himself existed before the foundation of the world, why need to be "FOREKNOWN"?

Again, my contention remains TRUE when the Bible said that the Creator is the God our Father. When it says, its the Father - its the Father. So why the Bible says "everything created BY Jesus" ? Does it mean that Jesus Himself is the Creator? No. The Bible says: The world was made THROUGH Him and BY Him... in what manner? God our Father created everything FOR Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ our Lord became the sole reason why God our Father created everything.

Now, again, I asked:

If Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is God, and we only have one God, and the Father of Jesus is not the Son [because Jesus Himself is the Son], WHY did Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed that the ONLY true God is the Father - His Father - our Father? If the Father is the only true God, what is Jesus? Is Jesus the Father? If God is made of the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spririt - and each is recognized as God - how come that Jesus introduced the Father as the only true God?


Simple questions.

[If Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is God, and we only have one God, and the Father of Jesus is not the Son [because Jesus Himself is the Son], WHY did Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed that the ONLY true God is the Father - His Father - our Father? If the Father is the only true God, what is Jesus? Is Jesus the Father? If God is made of the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spririt - and each is recognized as God - how come that Jesus introduced the Father as the only true God?Confusion raises questions. Please don't ignore.And don't use any Biblical passages that contradict these truth... and please don't self-interpret them.Thank you.]

Now, my question was ignored.

Nobody answered my question. Instead, it was responded with many self-interpreted passages, malicious notions, and Scriptural contradictions.

Taking, the instance of the one who is confused asking: If Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is God, and we only have one God, and the Father of Jesus is not the Son [because Jesus Himself is the Son], WHY did Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed that the ONLY true God is the Father - His Father - our Father? If the Father is the only true God, what is Jesus? Is Jesus the Father? If God is made of the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spririt - and each is recognized as God - how come that Jesus introduced the Father as the only true God?

Confusion raises questions. Please don't ignore.

And don't use any Biblical passages that contradict these truth... and please don't self-interpret them.

Thank you.

So, that's all? Maybe, for now.

You didn't even comment on my post regarding how can Jesus forgive sins. Maybe, it's clear for you for now.

We'll take John 10:30 first.

I've read your contention regarding the passage.

But you haven't emphasized why did Jesus said "I and My Father are one."

There must be reasons.

Again, in what sense are Jesus and Father one?
Focus first, which is important, on the discussion going on in that particular moment.

By saying "I and My Father are one", we cannot directly conclude that Jesus has meant that He and His Father are one God. However, those who have heard those words thought that Jesus was claiming to be God Hmself.

Actually, Jesus rebuked them. Jesus was not claiming He is God Himself.

Now, in what sense are Jesus and His Father one? I like to hear this from you.

Thank you.

Jury

["Who can forgive sins but God alone?"]

Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you God are MY SAVIOR, my hope is in you all day long.

(Note: If you'll remember in the NT, i believe our HOPE is in Christ Jesus. I may be stretching a bit here, but if David's hope was in God, and our Hope is in Christ Jesus, If i remember correctly, OT saints and NT believers share the common hope)

(Note who is speaking there, it is God Almighty. He is claiming that He is the Savior, and according to Him, there is no other Savior. Yet you still say that Jesus still died on the Cross for our sins.)

Again, I ask you, how is it that if Jesus was not God, that He had the power to forgive sins that had been committed against God Himself. No mere man can forgive the sins of another man that has been committed against God Himself. It's impossible because we are sinners!!! Jesus was perfect, that alone attests to His deity. Again, it is a concept that Jesus is God, all you gotta do is read John 1:1-14. That's clear in itself. If you know a bit of  greek you'll learn that the language is emphasized, meaning John the Apostle thought He was God, as well as Paul in His Epistles. Again, it doesn't have to be word for word that Jesus said "I am God" even though He came close to saying that more than once. Of course, i'm sure you know of John 10:30 where it says "I and my Father are one" Signifying equality with the Father, in nature, and deity. I can get alot more in depth about thist, but I don't have the time. I'm going to have to cut it short here.

God Bless

Joshua

(Oh yea, you're debating a 17 year old...so I ain't shying away that easily )

I am not against what the Biblical pronouncement that God our Father is indeed the Lord and Savior. But this authority is inherent to Him. UNLIKE Jesus, He was given by God the authorities in heaven and on earth. That's why He became Lord and Savior. He was made by God Lord and Savior.

"Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Mark 2:5-7

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic,
"Son, your sins are forgiven."
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there,
thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that?
He's blaspheming!
Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Mark 2:5-7 (NIV)

Yes. God is the only one who can forgive sins. But if Jesus is not God, how can He forgive sins?

Jesus Christ Himself clarifies such query in the succeeding verses.

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts,
and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things?
Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up, take your mat and walk'?
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...."
He said to the paralytic, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."
Mark 2:8-11, (NIV)

As emphasized, Jesus Christ according to Himself, declared that He has the authority on earth to forgive sins.

How did He gain this authority?

Then Jesus came and spoke to them,
saying,

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Matthew 28:18, (NKJV)

And who gave Him all the authority in heaven and on earth?

My Father has given me everything, and he is the only one who knows the Son.
The only one who truly knows the Father is the Son.
But the Son wants to tell others about the Father,
so that they can know him too.
Matthew 11:27 (Contemporary English Version)

Clearly, it is the Father (the only true God) who gave Christ the authority to forgive sins. If Jesus Christ is God, He don't need to be given such authority because all authorities are God inherently (the very sense of being omnipotent).

Now, you cited John 10:30:

Of course, i'm sure you know of John 10:30 where it says "I and my Father are one" Signifying equality with the Father, in nature, and deity.

Are you sure this is what the passage is dealing about? May I ask what your contention is by citing John 10:30? I suggest you read both preceding and succeeding verse of John 10:30.

To make my side clear first, my contention is this:

When I say Jesus Christ is not God, I am not saying that He is just a man - nor He is a mere man - nor He is only a man.

Jesus Christ our Lord, was a MAN accredited to us by God through miracles and signs... Again, when I say God, I directly refer to the Father.. for according to Jesus Christ Himself: the one and only true God is the Father.

Upon saying that the Father is the only true God (as Jesus declared) and the Father is definitely not the Son and not the Holy Spirit... then the Son is not God... the Holy Spirit is not God.

For ONE is Gd - and that is the Father. He is YHWH of Old Testament. He is the Creator of Adam, the Father of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Israel, the Creator of everthing.

This same God is the God of Jesus, the Faher of Jesus, the Creator of Jesus, the Father of the Apostles, the God of the Apostles, the Creator of the Apostles.

This same God is our God --- our Father.

Nowhere in the Bible it does say that Jesus Christ is God. Not even a concept.

Jesus can never be God for one is God - the Father. If He Himself a God, it would result into a concept of having two Gods: the Father and the Son.

Again, according to Jesus Christ Himself: Only one true God is none other than - the Father. Jesus' Father - our Father. Jesus' God - our God.

My contention again is this:

God had purposed Jesus to fulfill His will for salvation. How can Jesus fulfill this? God must give Him first the authorities over everything. He must give Him first the qualities simlar to God Himself... but this doesn't make Jesus God. Jesus is not the Father who gave Him everything. Jesus, while having the qualities of God given to Him by God, still chose to become a servant to God's will... He chose to be found in the likeness of man who suffers in death... This is because part of God's will is that He (Jesus) must die on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

Is Jesus God?

Well, for me. No. I am a Christian but not a member of Jehovah's Witnesses who don't believe that Jesus is God.

I am pro-Bible and my contention is this:

1. Jesus Christ was a man purposed by God to fulfill His will on salvation. When I say God, it directly refers to the One introduced to us by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself as the One and Only true God - the Father.

2. Jesus can never be God for God is one. Jesus Christ is not the Father because definitely He is the Son. When Jesus said that the Father is the only true God, it means that the Son is not, the Holy Spirit is not, or NO ONE is - ONLY the Father.

3. Jesus Christ, being a man, was found in the form of God, in the sense that God has given Him authorities and qualities similar to God Himself. This was needed for the fulfillment of God's will for salvation. But this doesn't mean that He is God. For a God is not a man. And a man can never be God.

4. Jesus Christ Himself didn't exist in the beginning. He didn't exist before He was born. He was proclaimed as "the firstborn to all creations" because He was FOREKNOWN by God before the foundation of the world.

5. According to the Bible, there is only ONE Creator - the Father. Since the Father purposed everything for Christ, He [Jesus] became the sole reason why God, the Creator, the Father, created everything.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus is God... or God has three persons namely: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.