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Theology / Debate / Re:Seventh Day Adventists
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on: July 01, 2004, 11:27:38 PM
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As I have said all along, God never asks the impossible. And to prove it was possible to keep His laws, He came to earth as a man and never sinned. If we only had His strength... But we don't (at least I don't). God wants us to live perfect lives. I certainly can't - though I wish I could. God Bless, JN Well you said it. It is possible to keep His laws. I am not even sure why we are discussing this. It seems we are on the same page here. In our own strength, our righteousness is as filthy rags;however, Christ promised in Philippians 4:13 that nothing is impossible as long as He strengthens us.
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Theology / Debate / Re:Seventh Day Adventists
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on: June 27, 2004, 11:09:03 PM
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Do you think God would give us a law which is impossible to keep? I'm not answering for Reba (I'm not wise enough), but if God's Old Testament laws were possible to keep, then Jesus Christ died for nothing. I don't think I am following you. Why would God give us the Ten Commandments if there was no way of keeping them? I don't understand how God can ask the impossible. The Bible says "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13 KJV As I have said all along, God never asks the impossible.
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Theology / Debate / Re:Seventh Day Adventists
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on: June 26, 2004, 05:25:17 PM
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Hey Reba. impossible
Your word was impossible i used the word hard because i cant spell well so i went and copied from your post the word impossible.
Where have I used the word "impossible" to mean that God's Sabbath is impossible to keep? Please refrain from taking one word out of context of the entire sentence. These are the sentences I wrote which contain the word "impossible": My point is simply this: God would never ask the impossible. God knows everything, and He knows that it is possible to keep the Sabbath. Do you think God would give us a law which is impossible to keep ? Here I was asking you a question, and I am still awaiting a response.
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Theology / Debate / Re:Seventh Day Adventists
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on: June 26, 2004, 02:47:57 PM
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SDA pride themselfs on the keeping the sabbath. And yet you are saying the law is too hard to keep. Firstly, SDAs take pride in loving Jesus. Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments" Secondly, where have I said that the law is to hard to keep?
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Theology / Debate / Re:Seventh Day Adventists
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on: June 26, 2004, 01:50:17 PM
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You really dont keep the sabbath.
And ifGod knew? Now i coudl be reading you wrong but there is no way God didn't know, correct?
My point is simply this: God would never ask the impossible. God knows everything, and He knows that it is possible to keep the Sabbath. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13 KJV You really dont keep the sabbath. Do you think God would give us a law which is impossible to keep ?
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Theology / Debate / Re:Seventh Day Adventists
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on: June 25, 2004, 11:32:24 PM
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Interesting thread. I didn't think SDA's could generate this much talk. I guess I was wrong Jesus is our leader (not Ellen White), and if that classifies us a "cult" then that is fine with me. From sunset friday to sunset saturday one keeping the law will not cause another to labour. We live in a service laden country. If one flips a light switch or 'flushes' uses their computer etc they are breaking the law as written in verse 10.
We do live in a "service laden country". Many other countries would also fall into this category. But remember God never gives us more than we can bear. It does not matter what the crowd does on the Sabbath. We have a responsibility to do as God commanded. The Sabbath is about centering our thoughts and actions on God, and I don't see how turning on a light switch or flushing violates that. If God knew that a trivial task such as turning on a light switch would violate the Sabbath, He surely would not have asked us to keep it holy. God would never ask the impossible. One of the reasons I look forward to the Sabbath is because I like the break from normal life. When kept, the Sabbath is truly an uplifting spiritual experience. God promises a blessing when we keep the sabbath " If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 58:13,14 KJV I think we all agree that God keeps his promises. Perhaps the best example on how to keep the Sabbath is found in Jesus. The rulers of Jesus' time imposed strict rules and restrictions on the Sabbath. They did not see that such rules only made the Sabbath a burden. Their many heartless rites could not supply the lack of that truthful integrity and tender love which will ever characterize the true worshiper of God. In Matthew 12, the disciples were hungry so they picked grain on the Sabbath. Obviously this involves more work than turning on a light switch yet when the Pharisees began to accuse them, Jesus defended the disciples’ actions. I have not seen a SDA, or anyone, keep the law as written . You may have overlooked The Man himself. Jesus saw it fit to keep the commandments. "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10
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Theology / General Theology / Re:"Interesting" Verses
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on: June 20, 2004, 10:36:22 PM
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I guess this is an intersting verse. What is the meaning of Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." ? Is He actually creating evil?
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Theology / General Theology / Re:The Lord's Day has replaced the Sabbath Law
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on: June 13, 2004, 11:54:25 PM
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Hey Left Coast. How is life man? Matthew 28:1 In the end of the 7th day sabbaths <sabbatwn>, as it began to dawn toward the first of the 1st day sabbaths <sabbatwn>, came Mary Magdalene …
No matter what, to take the exact same Greek word, ‘sabbatwn’, and translate it two completely radical different ways, in the same sentence is absolutely WRONG. I am sure there is a perfectly good word for week in the Greek, sabbatwn isn’t it. I searched the Greek Lexicon Dictionary for Strong’s number “4521” found here: http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=4521&version=kjv&type=engThese are the results I obtained: “1. The seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work a. the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week b. a single sabbath, sabbath day 2. Seven days, a week” I want to draw your attention to the second definition, “ Seven days, A WEEK.” Here we see that the word can mean both sabbath and week. Here is some additional scholarly commentary for you to consider: J. H. Thayer, in A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, fourth ed., Edinburgh (1901), p. 471, says: "OYE SABBATWN, the sabbath having just passed, after the sabbath, i.e. at the early dawn of the first day of the week-(an interpretation absolutely demanded by the added specification TH EPIUFWSK KTL [TH EPIFASK(OUSH) . . . , "when it was growing light" etc.]), Mt. xxviii. 1." Also, Zorell-Gr, column 969, says: "post [after]: OYE SABBATWN Mt 28:1 'post sabbatum' ['after the sabbath']." Moreover, Bauer, p. 601, says under OYE: "after OYE SABBATWN after the Sabbath Mt 28:1." I also want to restate that the chances of the translators making an error of this importance, not once, not twice, but FOUR times is impossible. If I tell my kids, “Remember, next week we go to Disney Land.” It isn’t because we have done it before, trust me on that. This is certainly a possible case; however, this implies something to come. As I proved in my last post, this situation does not apply to the fourth commandment. Exodus 20:11 clearly shows that the word “Remember” is being used to refer to something that happened at creation. 4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. -- Ceremonial in nature. It relates to a ceremony. It is not moral in nature. Everything you need to answer any questions about this can be found here. It is too long to paste into this post. http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath_books_read.asp?ID=654I sincerely hope you will take a few minutes to check it out. The seventh day sabbath represented the rest that believers have in Christ. We can see this in Hebrews 4:9-11: “The context of Hebrews three and four does not indicate that Paul was trying to convince the Hebrew Christians which day to keep holy. They already knew that. His great burden was for them to enter into a spiritual relationship with Christ-to have an experi-ence of rest from the works of sin. He proved that the children of Israel did not find that true rest because of their lack of faith and disobedience in the wilderness. Although the Greek word for rest, KATAPAUSIS, means simply "cessation from work," the context seems to indicate that the author is talking primarily about finding a spiritual rest in their experience. Nevertheless, the two chapters definitely tie the spiritual rest to the seventh-day Sabbathkeeping initiated and commanded by God in the beginning. Otherwise, we would not find in verse 4 a direct quote from Genesis 2:2. "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works" (Hebrews 4:4). The reason for citing God's resting on the Sabbath from His work of creation is revealed only when we analyze verses 9 and 10. Paul says that what remains for God's people is not KATAPAUSIS (a spiritual rest), but SABBATISMAS, meaning a literal keeping of the Sabbath. Then in verse 10 we find the real key which proves beyond a question that the SABBATISMAS rest was not spiritual only, but a cessation from physi-cal work. "For he that is entered into his rest (KATAPAUSIS-spiritual rest), he ALSO (in addition to the spiritual rest) hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS." The big question about this verse focuses on the works which one ceases from. Are they works of sin? Are they works to obtain salvation? Or are they the physical works from which we cease on the Sabbath? The answer is plainly revealed by the phrase "AS GOD DID FROM HIS." Go back to verse four and we begin to understand why this quote from Genesis is included in Paul's discourse. It is necessary to establish which works God did rest from. God ceased from His physical work of creation on the seventh day, and we are admonished to cease from ours, as He did from His. He did not just enter into a spiritual rest on the seventh day or we might conclude that He was not at spiritual rest on the first six days. The fact is that God is always at spiritual rest. Neither did He have any works of sin or the flesh to cease from. He simply rested on the seventh day from His work of creation, and we are being told by Paul that the ones who truly have received the spiritual rest of salvation will ALSO cease from their physical works on the Sabbath, AS GOD DID FROM HIS.” This was taken from http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath_books_read.asp?ID=654If you did any work on the 7th day you were to be put to death, pointing to judgment. Believing is also Gods work in us. If you committed adultery you were put to death, yet you say this is a moral law that was not changed. Leaving was not by their work. Their leaving is a picture of salvation. That is why it is tied to the sabbath. Deuteronomy 5:14, 15: "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day." It was already proven that the seventh day Sabbath is a memorial. “The key to understanding these two verses rests in the word "servant." God said, "Remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt." And in the sentence before this one He reminds them "that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou." In other words, their experience in Egypt as servants would remind them to deal justly with their servants by giving them Sabbath rest. In similar vein God had commanded, "And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him ... for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt." Leviticus 19:33, 34. It was not unusual for God to hark back to the Egyptian deliverance as an incentive to obey other commandments. In Deuteronomy 24:17, 18, God said, "Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge. ... Thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the Lord thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing." Neither the command to be just nor to keep the Sabbath was given to memorialize the Exodus, but God told them that His goodness in bringing them out of captivity constituted a strong additional reason for their dealing kindly with their servants on the Sabbath and treating justly the strangers and widows.” Taken from http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath_questions.aspA final note. In Acts 3 Peter and John went and preached on the seventh day sabbath, no one became saved. In Acts 4 the very next day, on the new Sabbath; 5,000 were saved. Think about it. I quickly read through Acts 3, and I did not find the “seventh day sabbath”. I may have missed it, but it does not matter. The important thing is that people were saved. I don’t think God cares if you are saved on Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.
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Theology / General Theology / Re:The Lord's Day has replaced the Sabbath Law
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on: June 12, 2004, 12:51:07 AM
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Because Gods commandment relating to the 7th day sabbath was FULFILLED by Christ we are no longer to keep the 7th day sabbath.
It seems as if you are interpreting the word "fulfil" (in Matt 5:17) to mean putting an end to the seventh-day sabbath alone, and taking up Sunday as the sabbath. This is indeed strange because it is only one of the commandments. Why would God "fulfil" only one commandment? Aren't all equally important? The explanation of the word "fulfil" in the text Matthew5:17 is given below. (taken from http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath_books_read.asp?ID=1196) "What does it mean to fulfill, friends? Some folks think that means to bring it to an end, but notice Matthew 3:15: “And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.” There’s the same word, even in the original, the word “fulfil.” What does it mean? “Fulfil all righteousness” means to obey or fill it up with obedience—that’s what it means. It doesn’t mean to bring to an end. You’ll find that Jesus put emphasis upon the idea that the Law could never be changed or destroyed. In fact He said that whoever would think of breaking even the least of those Ten Commandments and would teach others to do so, would be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19.) " As the scripture says, it was the end of the 7th day sabbaths, (Jesus even rested on that last 7th day sabbath), as dawn came on the first of the new sabbaths, (1st day sabbaths). Did you check out the Greek? I gave you the tools and the directions on how you could do that. Firstly, I would just like to state that I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to Greek; however, I noticed some inconsistencies in your explanation. This your "corrected" version of Matthew 28:1 "Matthew 28:1 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre." The others (Mark 16:1,2 Luke 23:56 & 24:1 John 20:1) are similar to Matthew 28:1. God and the early writers of the Bible would surely have noticed such an important change. I know there are subtle differences when it comes to a few numbers in different parts of the Bible; however, if something was mistranslated not once, not twice, but FOUR times then surely it cannot be human error. For me this is all the proof I need. Neither the scriptures nor your explanation does God say that it was "the end of the 7th day sabbath". From your explanation I notice that sabbatwn means "first of the sabbaths". If this is true the text should read “And on the eve of the first of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.” The logical error here is obvious. Also if I assume your explanation is correct, then you have to observe Sunday the same way we observe Saturday because these texts speak nothing of a change in sacredness of the day. Finally God could not have changed it because Malachi 3:6 says “For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” Further explanation of this point is given in Reply #13 on: May 28, 2004, 10:28:41 PM of this same thread. Some people feel some parts of the bible are to be held above others. Some read the red letter edition of the bible because they feel the words of Jesus are more important. I never said that I hold the Ten Commandments above the rest of the Holy Bible. I believe that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2 Timothy 3:16 By stating the fact that the commandments were engraved in stone, I was merely pointing out the very nature of something written in stone, ie, unchangeable. For an explanation of 2 Corinthians 3:14-16, please read the following excerpt taken from http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/covenants/cov-right.htm“A more complete detailed explanation of the Jewish failure is recorded in Romans 9:31-33. "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. They failed because, instead of trusting wholly in Christ, they trusted in themselves. Theirs was a failure of faith. They depended upon the arm of flesh. Again, Paul illustrates this failure in 2 Corinthians 3:14-16 as like unto a veil which was upon their faces and which had remained there even unto Paul’s day. The veil which is said to cover their faces symbolized their unbelief, "because only through Christ is it taken away. . . . But when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed." (R.S.V.) The Jews had insisted on trying to keep the law by their own efforts, and had arrived only at self-righteousness. The first blessing of the new covenant then is to take away all self-righteousness. 2. The positive aspect of the new covenant concerning the unity of the law and the gospel makes very specific the work of Christ for man: "I will put my laws into their minds, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people." Heb. 8:10.” The garden of Eden is a picture of heaven. Adam and Eve were invited to live forever in God’s rest. But you know the story, they had to leave the garden, (God’s Rest). How do we get back to God’s rest? Only through Jesus. We rest on His work. (we contribute nothing) Can you tell me where Jesus commanded us to “rest on His work.”? When God rested on the 7th day this was not a sabbath day. God introduced the sabbath at Sinai. Did he? Maybe he introduced the term “sabbath” but concept and sacredness were the same from creation. Take the first word of the fourth commandment (entire commandment—Ex 20:8-11) “Remember” –One can only remember something that has happened BEFORE. Remember what? “the sabbath day to keep it holy” – here we see that we are to remember the sabbath, and the tense indicates that it is still to be kept holy; however, we find no indication of WHEN the sabbath was given. To answer the question of when, one must read verse 11. “…and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” Here we have a reference to creation, and thus our question is answered. We see that the sabbath was hallowed at creation. This is proof that the Seventh-day Sabbath is a MEMORIAL (of something which happened at creation), not something which points to Christ. A sabbath was established at Sinai. A sabbath is a day that is set apart for God. It is to be Holy. The 7th day sabbath was holy because it pointed to Christ. This was disproved. Christ was made for man. Man was not made for Christ. We find this reflected in the 7th day sabbath. This is a very general statement, and one for which I have found no scriptural support. The seventh day sabbath does not reflect that “man was not made for Christ”. You quoted Mark 2:27 out of context “And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:” This does not show that “man was not made for Christ”. It shows that “sabbath was made for man.” Also take note it does not say that the sabbath was made for Jews, Israelites, Gentiles, Pharisees or any other creed or race. Egypt is a picture, sort of a parable for the dominion of Satan. If you are an Egyptian don’t freak out. It is not literally the dominion of Satan. Jesus was not crucified in Egypt and yet we find this reference:
Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Egypt is a picture of the dominion of Satan, God established the sabbath in relationship to bringing Israel out of Egypt. Revelation 11:8 says nothing about the sabbath. A full explanation of this passage can be given if requested. Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. I’m not exactly sure why you mentioned this text, but I assume you are using it to try to show that the “Lord established the sabbath in relationship to bringing Israel out of Egypt.” It was proven earlier that the sabbath was not established for this purpose. It was made for man (Mark 2:27).
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Theology / General Theology / Re:The Lord's Day has replaced the Sabbath Law
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on: June 07, 2004, 12:00:24 AM
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Acts 15:5-11 Ok, so you must believe that anyone who works on the 7th day should be put to death? Exodus 31:15
Jewish law and Christian law are not the same. If you keep part of the Jewish law, you must keep all of the Jewish law.
Do you believe in putting to death anyone who curses their mother or father? Exodus 21:17 Do you believe that adultery is an automatic death sentence? Leviticus 20:10 Do you believe that an act of homosexuality is an automatic death sentence? Leviticus 20:13 Do you believe that all non-believers who blaspheme should be put to death? Deuteronomy 13:5 Do you believe that ‘contempt of court’ should be a death sentence? Deuteronomy 17:12
I notice you said you depend on God's grace for salvation. I just want to add, so do I. It is because of His grace we do not have to pay the penalty for sin. Our debt was paid in full on the cross. This is why now we are not put to death. I also want to stress that this does NOT give me a reason to continue disobeying God. In fact, because I was redeemed I will obey God and his instructions. Please read the following excerpts for a further explanation taken from http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath_questions.asp#8 (emphasis was added) "Often we hear this argument in an effort to belittle the law of God: "Well, since we are not under the law but under grace, we do not need to keep the Ten Commandments any longer." Is this a valid point? The Bible certainly does say that we are not under the law, but does that imply that we are free from the obligation to obey it? The text is found in Romans 6:14, 15. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." How easily we could prevent confusion if we accepted exactly what the Bible says. Paul gives his own explanation of his statement. After stating that we are not under the law but under grace, he asks, "What then?" This simply means, "How are we to understand this?" Then notice his answer. In anticipation that some will construe his words to mean that you can break the law because you are under grace, he says, "Shall we sin (break the law) because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid." In the strongest possible language Paul states that being under grace does not give a license to break the law. Yet this is exactly what millions believe today, and they totally ignore Paul's specific warning. If being under grace does not exempt us from keeping the law, then what does Paul mean by saying that Christians are not under the law? He gives that answer in Romans 3:19. "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Here Paul equates being under the law with "being guilty before God." In other words, those who are under the law are guilty of breaking it and are under the condemnation of it. This is why Christians are not under it. They are not breaking it - not guilty and condemned by it. Therefore, they are not under it, but are under the power of grace instead. Later in his argument, Paul points out that the power of grace is greater than the power of sin. This is why he states so emphatically, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Grace overrules the authority of sin, giving power to obey God's law. This is the effective reason that we are not under the law's guilt and condemnation and also why Paul states that we will not continue to sin. Suppose a murderer has been sentenced to death in the electric chair. Waiting for the execution the man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word - under the guilt, under the condemnation, under the sentence of death, etc. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man's case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now he is no longer under the law but under grace. The law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned. He is free to walk out of the prison and not a policeman can lay hands upon him. But now that he is under grace and no longer under the law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Indeed not! In fact, that pardoned man will be doubly obligated to obey the law because he has found grace from the governor. In gratitude and love he will be very careful to honor the law of that state which granted him grace. Is that what the Bible says about pardoned sinners? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31. Here is the most explicit answer to the entire problem. Paul asks if the law is nullified for us just because we have had faith in Christ's saving grace. His answer is that the law is established and reenforced in the life of a grace-saved Christian." “Only by His strength and indwelling power can the requirements of the law be fulfilled by anyone. Paul said, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13.” Also, you may want to note Col 2:14-17. This passage gives some of the practices that have ended.
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Theology / General Theology / Re:The Lord's Day has replaced the Sabbath Law
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on: June 05, 2004, 04:34:15 PM
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It isn’t that we don’t keep the 4th commandment, we do. The Sabbath day was changed, by God.
Let us assume this is true for a moment. Psalms 111:7,8 KJV “7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.” If they stand fast forever here and in another part, they are abolished or changed, that would be a contradiction wouldn’t it ? Even God cannot change it. Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Another interesting point is that the commandments were written in stone. Once something is scraped out in stone, you can't change it at a later time. God knew what he was doing when he used his finger to write it in stone. He knew one day we would be wondering if the commandments were changed. This is why he chose to write them in stone so that nobody could change it. For me this is sufficient proof to settle the matter. The 7th day sabbath like the new moons and other ceremonial laws were shadows pointing to Christ.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Another key to understanding what Paul meant by "sabbath days" is given when Paul appears to refer to it as a "shadow" in vs. 17. When compared with the facts that a) the seventh-day Sabbath was instituted before sin and thus before any shadow was necessary and b) in both accounts of the Law it is explicitly given as a memorial (note the word ‘Remember’ in Exodus 20: and not a shadow or type of something to come.17Thus, it would be mis-leading, at best, to refer to the seventh-day Sabbath as a "shadow-sabbath."18 The reasons just given alone, at a minimum, strongly imply that Paul is not talking about the seventh-day Sabbath in vs 16 but rather the ceremonial sabbaths. When a person is born on a certain day, that day thus becomes his birthday. Unless you can go back in time and change the day you were born, you birthday will always be on a certain day. So when God rested upon the seventh day, that day became His rest, or Sabbath, day. Where in the Bible does it mention the first day as a "day of work" ? It is the day Jesus rose from the dead and the day God began the creation, but God NEVER said to keep it holy. Romans 1:25 says “Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.” When one worships on the 7th day, one worships the Creator according to the commandment (Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.) If one worships on any day other than the seventh, then one is not worshipping the Creator. Further explanation of this point is given on the first post of this page.
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Theology / Debate / Re:Seventh Day Adventists
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on: June 04, 2004, 01:43:44 AM
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Let us not forget that doing good on the Sabbath is a good thing. Jesus taught us this by healing on the Sabbath, etc.. Since we are on the topic of Jesus’ actions, does anyone remember Jesus going to the synagogue on the Sabbath (Seventh day)? (Mark 6:2) “And picking out one little law out of the ten and wrapping it around a whole bunch of rules is not what gets folks into a love relationship with the Lord and Savior Jesus.” Firstly, it because of our love for Christ and fellow man that we keep the 10 commandments. Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. People seem to think that because we keep all 10 instead of 9 we are a bunch of legalists. Let us not mistake legalism for obedience. Jesus had to deal with the cold formalism of the Pharisees over and over again. And because He so thoroughly condemned the program of salvation by works, many have hastily assumed that He considered obedience unimportant. Now we need to see the beautiful balance in Christ's doctrine of faith and works. He taught that obeying in order to be saved is the worst kind of legalism, but obeying because we are saved is the acid test of a true religious experience. Obedience follows true faith just as surely as day follows night. Never forget that a legalist is one who believes that he can be saved by his works. The person who keeps the commandments because he doesn't want to displease the God he loves is not a legalist at all. There is nothing Secondly “picking out one little law” is a big deal because if you break one you are guilty of all (James). Finally I would like you to explain your term "Freedom in Christ". Thanks We love the Lord just as much as you do. We are not a cult.
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Theology / General Theology / Consider this theory about the Sabbath and Sunday
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on: June 02, 2004, 11:19:08 PM
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Whether consciously or not, most christians do keep at least nine commandments. Read the fourth commandment then consider the following 2 paragraphs:
Exodus 20:8-11 KJV "8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
God issues a strong warning in Revelation 14:7 clarifiying that we should "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." This strong warning is needed because the devil has deceived almost the entire world into accepting his substitute and thus multitudes worship or obey him rather than the Creator. The call to worship in Revelation 14:7 brings us back to the Sabbath Commandment which God set aside specifically for holy purposes
"True to his (Satan's) purpose to exalt himself above God, he undertakes to change that commandment which, among them all, is the fundamental commandment of the law, the one which makes known who the lawgiver is, and contains his signature of royalty. The fourth commanment does this; no other one does. Four others, it is true, contain the word God, and three of them the word Lord, also. But who is this Lord God of whom they speak? Without the fourth commandment it is impossible to tell, for idolaters of every grade apply these terms to the multitudious objects of their adoration. With the fourth commandment to point out the Author of the decalogue, the claims of every false god are annulled at one stroke. The God who here demands our worship is not any created being, but the One who created all things. The maker of the earth and the sea, the sun and the moon, and all the starry host, the Upholder and Governor of the universe, is the One who claims and who from His position has a right to claim, our supreme regard in preference to every other object. The commandment which makes known these facts is therefore the very one we might suppose that power which designed to exalt itself above God would undertake to change. God gave the Sabbath as a weekly reminder of Himself, and as a memorial of His work in creating the heavens and the earth, a great barrier against heathenism and idolatry. It is the signature and seal against atheism and idolatry."
This is taken from the book Daniel and the Revelation, Uriah Smith, Page 613
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Theology / General Theology / Re:The Lord's Day has replaced the Sabbath Law
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on: May 28, 2004, 10:28:41 PM
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Deut. 10:5, Heb 9:4, and 1 Kings 8:9 tell us that Moses placed the commandments, written on stone, inside the ark. Revelation 11:19, “The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple, the ark of His testament…” It was called “the ark of His testament,” but it could not have been so called, had it not contained the law. Here then was the ark in heaven, which must consequently be the great original of which the commandments on the tables in the earthly ark were but a copy. In other words, the commandments are also in heaven! We have a copy that must be exactly like the original. Psalms 111:7,8 “7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.” From this I understand that the commandments are eternal. No part can be changed or abolished.
Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Revelation 14:12, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” From these two texts one can see that one of the signs of the true church in the end times is the observance of God’s commandments.
If keeping all 10 commandments instead of 9 makes one a "legalist", then I am guilty.
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Theology / General Theology / Re:The Lord's Day has replaced the Sabbath Law
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on: May 28, 2004, 07:40:05 PM
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Which day is the Lord's Day? While John was on the Isle of Patmos he wrote "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day" (Rev. 1:10). This is the first place in the Bible that we have the expression "Lord's Day." The most generally entertained view is that the "Lord's Day" is the first day (Sunday). The only inspired writers who speak of the first day are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Paul; and they never speak of it in a manner to distinguish it above any other of the six working days. If it were to be called the Lord's Day from the fact of Christ's resurrection upon it, the Bible would have said so. There are other events that are just as important to the plan of salvation such as the crucifixion and the ascension. Since there is no instruction, why not call one of these days the Lord's Day?
On the other hand, Mark 2:28 says, "The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.” In other words, the Sabbath is the Lord's Day. Matthew 12:8 (KJV) says it better "The Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." When God gave to man in the beginning six days of the week for labor, He expressly reserved the seventh day to Himself, placing His blessing upon it, and claimed it as His holy day. (Genesis 2:1-3.) Thus we see that whether it be the Father or the Son whose title is involved, no other day can be called the Lord’s Day but the Sabbath of the great Creator.
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