Snake,

First of all you have not addressed a single point I have made, other than to argue that the book of Revelation is Chronological except when it isn’t necessary to see it that way.  Note: Apparently, that is only when it destroys the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture because only then it isn’t because you have to pretend it is a different perspective such as from heaven as opposed to earth.  That is a load of pre-trib crap just like your Rev 4 rapture and 24 elders = the church in heaven claim.  With that kind of interpretive skill you could pretty much make the Bible say whatever you want.  You have no clue and no evidence to support your claim.  Unless I lost my Bible decoder manual it doesn’t say anywhere in the instructions that the objective to Biblical interpretation is to make it fit the pre-trib view no matter what.

Snake said “God says we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Do you agree?”

Of course I agree.  However, tribulation for the saints does not equal wrath for the last time.  Do you not agree that there will be believers on earth that will suffer tribulation at the same time the trumpet judgments take place? Who are those believers if they are not likewise beneficiaries of the promises of God?  This is at the same time when wrath is being poured out upon the earth for the sake of unbelievers.  Do you not believe that the early Church suffered tribulation?   Their bodies were used as torches and they lined the roads leading into to Rome.  They were torn to pieces in the coliseum.  They were thrown in prison, persecuted and tortured, yet in their afflictions they rejoiced because they believed it was an honor to suffer for the name of Christ.  But then who is going to be suffering wrath?   Those who are doing these things to the believers will suffer God’s wrath and God’s wrath is not indiscriminate nor is it directed upon the saints.  

If you lose your job and your property is stolen, your 401(k) becomes worthless and somebody persecutes you and calls you names for carrying your Bible, you might call that wrath.  That isn’t wrath, that’s just the minor tribulation of what being a Christian will be like in the days to come.  However, eventually you may be put to death for the name of Christ.  You may be thrown in prison, killed, beheaded or tortured much like the early Christians and so many since then.  What are you afraid of?  What is the worst thing that could happen to your body for the sake of Christ?  That body you have is a worthless stinking piece of flesh anyway.  It is going to die even if you live.  Do you think if your flesh suffers in any way for the sake of Christ that is wrath? Give me a break.  Trust me, even if you attempt to save your stinking flesh you will lose it anyway and not one part of it will inherit the kingdom of God in any case.  I am saying this because it equally applies to each of us.  Our bodies are sinful flesh that will either die and be resurrected anew or they will be changed in a flash, in the blink of an eye at the moment Christ returns.

We are simply arguing over the timing and yes there is much that we can dispute about on the matter of how to interpret the Revelation of Jesus Christ.  But there is a reason why pre-tribs do not include many of the verses of scripture in their exegesis that I have related to you.  They simply leave them out because it doesn’t fit their point of view.  You want to talk about different perspectives and all of that to explain it away.  You are destroying the whole concept that Revelation is describing chronological events.  You can’t even argue that the rapture that takes place in Rev. 16:15 is a chronological event instead you say it is the pre-trib rapture from a different perspective or whatever. That’s hogwash.  It talks about the battle of Armageddon taking place at the same time.

I challenge you to try for just once to forsake all of your man made interpretations and let the Word of God speak to you.  Forget everything I have said and everything any man has told you.  You love to quote what other people think, what other people say and what other people write about, but forget all of that.  Read the Bible and let God speak to you. I was a more ardent defender of what you believe than you are at one time.  I read every book I could get my hands on, I listened to every tape and message and so on, and then one day God spoke to me.  I may not be going about this the correct way but it is my calling to destroy this pernicious doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.  IT IS NOT OUR BLEESED HOPE to be rescued from impending tribulation based on the alleged Philadelphia exception.  On the contrary, it will be a blessing to be here to the bitter end if that is God’s will.  It will be a blessing to see Israel saved and come to Christ.  I can guarantee you that if you remove the dispensational blinders you will see things in a different light that will bring a new understanding to God’s Word, both Old and New Testament.  It is my opinion that dispensational pre-tribulationism is the worst of all lies that is corrupting the evangelical Church.  It is a doctrine of utter complacency and defeatism for the Church.  

I would love to hear your specific interpretation of Rev 16:14-17 in the full context of the verses that accompany it concerning the final battle and especially the “it is done” quote from 16:17.  You also have failed to address the fact that the only second coming passages mentioned in scriptures that are “a surprise second coming” are those that are clearly post-tribulational.  Indeed all of the second coming verses are either post trib as to their explicit timing or neutral in the since that only out of context one can perhaps imply some other timing.    

You have completely ignored the points I made concerning the resurrection of the saints, and the fact the Jesus said that he will resurrect those who believe on the last day.  You can’t possibly explain the timing of Old Testament saints in the rapture nor specifically the prophet Daniel who is told that he will not arise until after the end of days.  You have not disputed one thing I have said from scripture.  I am aware of so much more propaganda that you could come up with, being ever so familiar with your point of view.  Let’s try the seven year day, while at the same time claiming to be the ONLY VIEW that takes the scriptures literally (except where it doesn’t agree with the pre-trib view).   I have read that crap so many it makes me laugh.
 
Ebia, thank you for your contribution.  Nonetheless even at seven hundred yards away Jesus was still not talking to those standing around the temple.  Point made!

[Rev 16:15, "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."]

Snakums Maximus

You are in for it.  Let me pick it up where I left off.  

You said “Your theory of the rapture and the second coming happening at the same time does not fit the scripture.”

I am flabbergasted you can actually make that statement but let’s try it one more time.  

These are the words of Jesus in Rev 16:15, "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

What is being described here in the words of Jesus?  Let’s break it down, He comes and we go!  It’s the rapture!  Pre-tribs love to ignore this second coming like a thief, rapture verse because blows away all of their secret rapture theories they hang there hat on.  Low and behold the surprise rapture occurs at the moment of the battle of Armageddon just like it is further described in chapter 19, where you see those just raptured coming with the Lord to the scene of the battle.  Rev. Chapters 17 through 19 beautifully recaps what has already been said before in Rev, the destruction of Babylon and the very events leading up to the final battle and the return of Jesus Christ the King of Kings.  

Pre-trippers claim that the actual second coming will be so well known that they can count it down to the very day but they claim the rapture is secret (like a theif).  What they don't tell you is that all the thief verses point ONLY to a post trib rapture.  They believe the second coming is such a distinctly prophesied event that it would be impossible for it not to be known up to the very day.  I won’t mention any names.  Yes I will, Tim LeHaye and his wind bag pre-trib council and all the rest.  Then what the heck is this?  Well it seems like at least some folks get surprised and those people are Christians by reference to those who still go but go naked and shamefully exposed.

Is there further evidence of this?  I am glad you asked.  Let’s examine some more thief references.  

Matthew 24:42-44, “"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.  So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

Let’s play a little game called Truth or Dispensationalist.  I love to include this verse because in the pre-tripper world they exclude the entire Olivet discourse from the church age column.  That would be all of Matt 24 and 25 which they claim is in reference to the Jews.  So here we go.  We have to ask, who is Christ talking to?  If you said the disciples [nucleus of the Church] you are correct.  If you said the clueless Jews milling around the temple miles away from the Mount of Olives and those who now live in present day Palestine who have not read this scripture you would be a dispensationalist.

Do you remember the verse in Revelation?  Who is Christ talking to?  Here is a hint.  Rev: 22:16, “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches.”

If you said the Church only in chapters 1-4 and for the remainder of the chapters 5-22 the clueless Jews milling around the temple and those living in present day Palestine and those gentiles who are “left behind” then you would be a dispensationalist.  If you said the Church then you are correct.

Let’s look at another one.  

1 Thess 5:1-4,  “Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.  While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”  

If you believe that what this verse is saying is that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night and yet be accompanied by His wrath and destruction and that Paul is talking to the Church then you would be correct.  If you believe that Paul is talking to the clueless Jews milling around the temple and those living in present day Palestine and those gentiles who are “left behind” then you would be a dispensationalist because obviously the day of the Lord that the Church is expecting is a secret rapture and this could not possibly be it because it is accompanied by wrath and destruction.  And if you believe that Paul says the real second coming is sort of like a thief, but it won’t be a day of destruction or anything like what the Bible actually says it will be and even though real second coming won't be a surprise and the rapture will be a surprise, even thought it says the church should not be surprised because after all we are pre-trib dispensationalist and this verse is contradicting our theory and frankly we wished you hadn’t brought it up…where is the nearest nipple, I need some baby milk?

Let’s look at another one

2 Peter 3:10-12, “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.  That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.”

If you believe that what this verse is saying is that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief and yet be accompanied by His wrath and destruction and that Peter is talking to the Church then you would be correct.  If you believe that Peter is talking to the clueless Jews milling around the temple and those living in present day Palestine and those gentiles who are “left behind” then you would be a dispensationalist because obviously the day of the Lord that the Church is expecting is a secret rapture and this could not possibly be it because it is accompanied by wrath and destruction … where is that bottle?  

Oh the contradictions!

Let’s do one more for old time sake.  I love to hear pre-trib exegesis try to explain this one.  They get really twisted.

2 Thess 2:1-8 “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.  Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?  And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.  For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.”

First of all if you believe Paul is telling the Church what to expect concerning the Day of the Lord then you would be correct.  If you believe that Paul has had a case of beer and does not mean what he is saying then you would be a dispensationalist.  Or, if you believe that what this verse is saying is that the day of the Lord “will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed…..” then you are correct.  If you believe that it says exactly the opposite of this then you are a dispensationalist because obviously the Day of the Lord that the Church is concerned with is a secret rapture that precedes the antichrist because obviously the antichrist does not come until the tribulation and will not be destroyed until the battle of Armageddon and that isn’t right because it contradicts us and besides…MILK!

I have more but I rest my case for now!  Unless you want to cross examine, then I’ll go a few more rounds.

The Kraken
sinker of pre-trib ships

First of all I did not mean to suggest that you can’t say whatever you please.  It was merely a rhetorical statement in reference to the fact that I believe you are claiming things that are not scriptural.  The reason I annoy most pre-tribbers is because it has been my experience they don't like to debate with anyone who disagrees with them especially if that person is certain about what they believe.  Please don't take it as being arrogant and condescendingly retreat to uncertainty.  I'm just confident.  So if your confident, go for it.

I'm loving this!  I really appreciate it.  Your pretty good. Dead wrong, but your good!  I mean that sincerly.  You could beat the crap out of that weenie Tim LeHaye.   Now give me a chance to prove your wrong thats all.  You see I have had this pre-trib junk shoved down my throat all my life and I never get to debate them on it.  The ones I know are mindless minions to the cause, but you are different.  I mean that as a complement.  We could possibly approach a mistrial here.  But we'll see.

First of all Revelation 4 says absolutely nothing about the rapture.  Can we agree that's speculation on your part.  John is having the experience here not the whole Church.  I believe Revelation is mostly chronological, but it does back track on the destruction of Babylon and a few other things in later chapters.  I believe the bowls of wrath are also an adjunct part of the seventh trumpet and not completely separate from it.

You said “They have been judged by Jesus and have received their rewards!  This does not happen until after the rapture my friend.”  

So you are saying we are all judged after the rapture, even those who have died before?  Someone is telling you a lie.  The Bible clearly says that judgment takes place when you die.

First let’s blow away your white robe and 24 elders are the church theory.  You need a little lesson on the resurrection.  Dying and going to heaven is not the same as being resurrected.  Did you know if you croaked tonight, before the rapture, that you will go to heaven right away and you will be judged as to whether you are in the book and have received the crown of life, at least your soul does?  Wow, where is your theology coming from?  Yes indeed, there are Christians in heaven right now who have received a crown!  And that’s before Christ returns for the rapture.  Do you believe in purgatory or limbo or something?   We go to be with Christ when we die, but that does not mean we are resurrected or raptured, but it does mean we are judged immediately.

How is that 24 elders can represent the raptured Church in heaven but the multitudes in Rev 7 don’t?  They are humans also, who are also wearing white robes and yet they “come through the great tribulation”.  Even so the Elders are not necessarily raptured or resurrected at this point either just as the souls of those in Rev 6 were not yet resurrected and they were given white robes but told to wait a little while longer for those to be killed just as they had been.   These are the SOULS of saints, not resurrected humans!  As far as crowns go, let me see.  Lie I said, do you not believe that we are immediately judged as to our ultimate disposition when we die?  Those who are left will not receive a crown until Christ returns, but those who die before receive their crowns in heaven when they die. Phil 1:21-23, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.  If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;” AND Hebrews 9:27. “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,” AND Rev 14:13, “Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."   "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."” AND Paul alludes to the crown he will receive when he dies, Timothy 2:4-6, “For I am already being poured out like a drink offering and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.”  

Good greif its late,  I have to start earlier tomorrow.  I'll pick it up again later.

Bye

Wow,

So many excellent posts to respond to I don’t know where to begin.  The bronze serpent wins the award for having the most well ordered and logical arguments in favor of pre-tribulationism but unfortunately he has read too many books that I am about to slaughter with the sword.  This is evidenced by virtue of his backing down at the last minute and confessing that what he is proselytizing is merely his opinion.  I get that a lot.  

According to Pre-tribs there are:

2 First Resurrections (The one mentioned in the Bible and their fairytale)
2 Second Comings (The one mentioned in the Bible and their fairytale secret rapture)
2 Raptures (The one mentioned in the Bible that they have coopted as being theirs and the one that is clearly post trib mentioned in Revelation 16:15 and other places even though they are one in the same event)
2 Days of the Lord (The one God is telling us about that is going to bring wrath and massive destruction in a final cataclysmic event and their fairytale secret rapture that makes what God is telling us about in the real day irrelevant to us because we won’t be here)
2 People(s) of God (The Church and Israel, totally separate at the end according to dispensational speak)
2 Elects of God - (We are the elect elect who don’t go through the tribulation unlike the elect of Matt 24)
2 sets of Saints (The Church is the “other” saints mentioned throughout the NT who do not go through the tribulation in Revelation)

1. Snake says we ignore Rev 19:14 where “God says we are in heaven”.  Where does God say that?  I am sorry but it simply says that the armies of heaven are following him [Christ] upon his return.  Stop quoting pre-trib propaganda and adding to the scripture.  This is a reference to those Christ will bring with him on his REAL return and actually since at the same time the rapture also takes place and those who are alive will join him in the air it means that those alive when he returns also are following him don’t you think?.  It never mentions that we are ALL in heaven via the rapture seven years earlier, so don’t say it.  Remember that little passage in 1 Thess 4:14 which YOU conveniently left out, “We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.  This also agrees with Zech 14: 5 where God says he will bring the Holy Ones with him.  Hey pre-tribs you can’t reconcile this Old Testament verse or the pre-trib rapture to when Daniel is resurrected which God clearly places at the end of the tribulation in Daniel 12:13 unless you say that Daniel alone is not resurrected at the time of the rapture and has no part of the wedding feast that you’ll be supposedly digging in heaven for seven years.   Since the Resurrection of Daniel would also likely be at the same time as other Old Testament saints, are you suggesting that none of the prophets, David, Joshua, Moses, and all those guys will be part of the first resurrection you’ll be participating in.  The most slovenly backslidden Christian gets resurrected before all the Old Testament Saints?  But, keep in mind this is not the first, but the first, first resurrection before the first one actually mentioned in the Bible.  You guys are in trouble and you add a little here, take a little there.  

2. Snake says, “Here in Revelation 4:1 we once again here the trump of God…this is the last time you can find the trump of God sounded in Revelation”.  Excuse me!  And I suppose those next seven trumpets sounded by the seven angels are not the trumpets of God but the Boston philharmonic?   There should have been trombones given to the angels.  Give me a break.  I have heard a great many outrageous lies by pre-tribs but his one is a new one I haven’t heard before.  But this has to take the cake.  Someone has been reading their Bible and discovered yet another inexplicable contradiction to reconcile.  The reason is you have to say this is because you can’t reconcile it with Cor. 15:52 where it says “the Last Trumpet” even though it doesn’t say the last trumpet of God there.  Again I give you pre-trib exegesis at its best.  Take a little bit here, add a little bit there, we will make it fit no matter what we don’t care.

I’ll pick the rest up tomorrow.  It’s late and I have had to deal with a little witch on another thread so I’m tuckered out.  

Kraken

Crystal

Way to go!   Diddo here!  I have had this pre-trib propaganda junk taught to me ever since I was a little nub.  I was always very interested in prophecy so I wanted to find it for myself.   So, I started to read the Bible and low and behold the rapture is not only absent from the Bible it is directly and convincingly refuted by the Bible.  I was crushed for a little while, and then I became increasingly upset that I was not being told the truth.  I had an epiphany that I should fight it because it is deceptive and in my view that makes it evil.


Ebia,

I hardly understand a darn thing you said.    Other than I gather you believe Revelation is a metaphor for what has already taken place.  I have to disagree because it is linked to so many events in the Old Testament and New that have yet to see their fulfillment as it concerns Israel and the Church.  

Snake,

There is a distinction between tribulation for the saints and the wrath of God for the unbeliever.  The saints will suffer many things, no less than what the early Church suffered in its infancy, at the hands of the beast in Revelation.  Just as many were put to death for their faith and overcame, so too will those who are alive during this time make no less a sacrifice.  

Rev 7:14.  “I answered, "Sir, you know."   And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

John 16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

Romans 8:35-25, “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?  As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."”

Rev 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Rev 6:9, “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.”

Rev 13:7, “He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them…”

The problem with so many in the Church in America is that they do not have any idea what is going to happen to them.  Suffering for their faith to them means they will have to face some office ridicule or suffer a financial setback.  They truly believe they will be raptured from behind the steering wheel of their SUVs or while in an easy chair watching a ball game.   Amazingly they have conveniently left out what the Bible says and they neatly segregate themselves from the saints of Revelation by virtue of dispensationalism.  They won’t be here, so they claim, and the scriptures are only references to those unfortunate fools who are left behind and become saved afterward.  There will come a day when ALL your gold and money will be worthless.  The Church needs to wake up!

Bomber,

The Church and its association with Israel in the last days is an interesting portrait in scripture.  One of the important things that I do not agree with concerning pre-trib doctrine is that it assumes incorrectly that all Christians, rather than many being Laodiceans, are all Philadelphians and are promised not to go through the tribulation because they equate that with wrath.  In other words the final condition of the Church is perhaps no better than it is today, a deeply divided and quarrelsome bunch of denominations.   But the Bible speaks of a singular purified Church.  It speaks of a Church purified and made righteous through tribulation and a time of trouble.  It speaks of a people that God himself does a work among to bring about a truly righteous Church that will be without spot or blemish when Christ returns.   This is not a work we can undertake ourselves but it is one in which the Holy Spirit will guide.  Pre-tribs at present consider this a fairytale even though it is clearly illustrated in the prophetic scripture.  That is why I see the pre-trib doctrine as a great evil.  Furthermore, this Church will include the remnant of Israel who will make a wholesale return to Christ at some point.  There is nothing but a cataclysm of Biblical proportions that can propel these events.  This is precisely what the verse in Daniel 11:35 alludes to.

I must disagree with your assessment of what it means to be a Christian.  People do not come to Christ under false pretense if they truly have come to him.  The soundness of the doctrine of salvation makes it very easy to become saved so that even a child can understand, but very difficult to accept on a purely intellectual level.  Once in that infantile condition it is up to Christians to allow God to perform a work in our lives that transforms us into mature Christians.   The problem is there are many suckling infants in the Church who have never grown past the desire for milk to a level where they eat solid food.  That food is the Word of God and doing the will of God.

I do not see how the “lie” has any connection to the war in Iraq or against terrorism.  That is a purely short sighted political statement that has no basis in fact.  The US war against terrorism is NOT part of the great lie.  If you are convinced that the mark of the beast is merely a chip then that is your opinion, but it is much deeper than that.  I personally would not accept a chip for numerous reasons, but it certainly has no basis in scripture for being the mark that condemns someone to hell unless it is accompanied by an affirmative denial that Jesus Christ is Lord.  That is the lie.  The mark is a statement of what you believe and it is accompanied by what you do.  The mark on the forehead or right hand alludes to one’s beliefs and the works of your hands.  It is the counter to the seal of God that will accompany believers.  For this reason it will be impossible for someone who is truly saved to accept the mark and worship the beast.  The Bible mentions a day when there will be a separation of the peoples before the day of the Lord into two camps, those who are truly righteous and those who are not.   There will be a clear distinction between the two.  Those who are not born of Christ will accept the mark and those who belong to Christ will not.  The Bible also says that Jesus will not lose a single one that is promised to Him

Rebia,

I am not confusing your uncertainty with anything having to do with whether you are a believer.  I was only implying that I thought you sounded uncertain about your beliefs concering the rapture.  But I have noticed that you simply like to disagree without saying what you do agree with.  I thought you were an atheist before but that was another....nevermind I am trying to forget.  So what is orthodox preterism with respect to post tribulational.  I really want to know.  Can you give me some insight on that.  Heck, for all I know I might be a postribulational unorthodox discombobulationalist.

Rebia,

One more time for Rebia! Because nothing IS nothing it cannot possibly foster the creation of anything.  People who believe in nothing have only two choices.  They must believe that everything came from nothing or that everything is eternal which can be proven to be untrue by the laws of entropy.  That is the paradox but apparently you don't get it nor will you ever and frankly I am sick of talking to you.  With over one thousand post you must be the most annoying person on this forum.  Thank you for ruining this thread.

Reba,

The problem is, there is no popular view about the rapture.  You are correct for being skeptical of what men say.  I desired to prove what I was taught to believe by finding it in the Bible.  To my despair I was proven wrong.  So I decided to accept what the Bible says instead of all the man made theology surrounding the pre-trib rapture.  I also discovered along the way there were many who agree with what I found out on my own.  You apparently aren't certain what you believe at this point.  I have trouble with understanding where you are coming from on this issue.   Please elaborate on your position so we can converse.  Its a complicated subject but surely you have reached some conclusions.


2 Bombs,

I don't want you to lure me into a debate on this thread about whether one can lose their salvation.  This is about the rapture but If you want to debate it please post a topic and I will be glad to get into it with you.  But for the record I believe you are flat out wrong.  

Have you sinned since you came to Christ.  If what you say is true then you were lost at that moment and must be saved again.  We do not have the power to lose our salvation just because we sin again.  If we say we do not sin then we are liars.  Just as we did not have the power to obtain a free gift on our own merits we do not have the power to lose it on our own merits.  It was given to us freely once and for all including the faith that it takes to accept it.  All we have to do is believe and act on that faith.  Once we believe, if we truly do, we are transformed and that is something that is not up to us to accomplish but it is the gift of God.  You put to much stake in what YOU did verses what GOD did if you believe otherwise.  You didn't save yourself God saved you and he will not lose a single one promised to him and nothing can take you away from him.  The reality is that even once we are saved we are not perfect but we are saved for the purpose of becomming perfect in Christ and that will happen, but it doesn't happen as long as we are in this body.

By the way, how's life treating you in South Africa.

All,

The Kraken still awaiteth for someone to defend the pre-trib rapture.  The jury is getting wrestless.  Perhaps some of you are reading your books again, consulting with experts and going over your charts and need a little more time.  Let me give you a little advice.  It wont help.  I am glancing up at my bookshelf and laughing at all the pre-trib prophecy books I have from all the different authors like Wolvoord, LeHaye, Lindsay, Hagee Bloomfield and others, just to name a few.  There is only one book that counts and that is the Bible.  Meanwhile I am just waiting here chatting with the Bomber, Reba and the Snake.

Ebia,

One more thing.  You say that my argument is garbage.  It's simply a paradox that says something can't come from nothing and if you believe it can then you believe nothing is as powerful as God.  This is not a statement of my entire faith.  Keep in mind that I actually do believe in someone (God) and that it is impossible for something to come from nothing unlike you who ridiculously demands proof of that.  I've had dedicated atheist give far more cogent arguments against this paradox than what you have done by simply saying prove it.

Bronzie,

Hey, since when is Christianity at odds with good science.  I find it incredible to think that some Christians actually argue with known facts such as the universe "appears" to be older than 6,000 years.  I mean c'mon it takes the light from the closest stars longer than that to reach us.  From the closest galaxy I think we are talking tens of millions of light years.  When they focused the hubble telescope on the blackest part of space what came back were images of countless galaxies billions of light years away.  On the other hand that is perfectly in line with what the Bible says.  God says we will never be able to search out the heavens.  Its a big place.  I think it's in Psalms or somewhere like that.   I find it inconcievable that God would have actually created a universe that we could one day look out and say, Wow, there's the end of that sucker, it ain't so big.  It simply shows me that HE is indeed a magnificent creator.  Also, I believe the God who created the vast array of heavens would have done so in such a way that we could also never point to it and say that is how he did it and that is when he did it.  He could have laid it all out in seven days or seven seconds for that matter just the way it is because he IS GOD and He created time in the process as well. If you need more rational evidence there are actually physicist who say that God could have created everything at a single point in space (ala BB) and it could have been spread out from there and as a result it could have actaully been only so many thousands of years but appears much older.  I don't know.  All I know is that it was done exactly the way the Bible says it was done, in six days.   He could have created rocks that actually looked like they were here forever also.  I mean what would a world full of brand new rocks and brand new elements look like anyway.  Elements with supposed half lives of millions of years that help us date rocks by virtue of their radioactive decay.  Alot of science is purely a wag.  God still created it all!

[uni]

Ebia,

You asked me to prove that something can't come from nothing and I offered it.  But you don't acccept scientific evidence apparently any more than you have faith in God.  You argue against every point of view and offer nothing in response but contrary remarks.  Ok, here is some additional proof.  I tried really hard to create something out of nothing and I could'nt do it. You give it a try just to back me up.  Then let's hear your world view.  Please explain.

I'll take a guess.  Apparently in Ebia's world the universe isn't a closed system.  Ok, but first, I think you need some basic understanding of what the word universe means.  The freaking universe IS a closed system because there is only one universe.  That's what the name universe means.  If we look way way way out there, lets say as far as 9 trillion light years away and find some more stuff we didn't see before, well wiz bang what do you know, its still in the universe.

On the other hand in Ebia's world there may be parallell universes with a portal that adds cool stuff to our universe to keep it from being closed.  I'll run with you on that for a minute.  If you take ALL the parallell universes and put them together and call them the megaverse then I'll say the same thing.  The magaverse is a closed system.  I guess there could be parallell megaverses also.  So let's take all the paralless megaverses and any other the physical space that exist anywhere and call it Ebia's brain.  Ebia's brain is a closed system.     JK, that was mean, I'm sorry!  

 

Ok, Lets see if I can break this down.  By the way very very weak defense pretribals.  Surely you can do better.  Where is your golliath?  Please take if from me, a recovered pre-trib junkie.  Life is great once your cured.  

Two Bombs,

Although I adamantly disagree with pretribs I must also disagree with your assessment of their fate.  I do not believe that pre-tribs will wear the mark of the beast.  This issue is an inhouse debate upon whose position ones salvation does not depend.  I was saved long before I gave up that idea.  I go to a Church with nearly 10,000 of them and I belong to a denomination of nearly 16 million (wag) of them.  They are by far the best Christians I know and I admire them and love them dearly.  But something happens to a persecuted Church that is likely to kindle a flame not ever seen in this land or this church.  They will come around sooner if not later.  However, I do believe some among them will suffer serious retribution from God for adding to what is not written and taking away what is written.

Aiki,

You are incorrect.  Wrath for the unbeliever does not equal tribulation for the saints.  The saints will suffer tribulation, but not the wrath of God.  The tribulation we will suffer will have a purifying effect even though some (many) will actually lose their lives for the cause of Christ.   Also, arguing about this issue is not useless to me; I believe it is important for the Church to know the truth, even so you don’t have to debate it if you don’t want to.  But let me tell you about arrogance.  My Sunday school teacher was teaching a lesson on the pre-trib rapture the other week.  He knows my point of view and so he came up to me before class and insisted I remain silent during the lesson.  I had him in my crosshairs several times while he spewed his propaganda but I refrained.  My pastor teaches it routinely as gospel truth and mocks anyone from the pulpit who believes otherwise, boldly stating that he will say “I told you so” all the way to heaven.   Yet when I write him a letter he kindly declines to respond to any Biblical point made and offers a simple reply that “many have different opinions”.  Opinion?  That is not what you called it last Sunday dude.  Arrogance and condescension abound in the pre-trib camp but they do not want to debate the issue one on one with a Bible in hand.  They are like Mormons and their talking points.  They can’t debate with the scripture on this! I have had this stuff shoved down my throat all my life yet I have yet to find anyone in a congregation of 10,000 to even give me a hearing on what the Bible says when challenged.  But if one of their leaders would turn from that belief the whole lot of them would gasp in despair and probably change their own beliefs they are so codependent on others for what they believe.  I have talked to dozens and dozens of them and not a single one has yet been able to defend his belief from the Word of God.  

Do you know why pre-trib prophecy books sale so well?  Because it aint in the Bible!!! Otherwise folks would read that instead.  But, everyone is looking for some authoritative answer to reassure them.  I used to buy their books and read them by the score to console myself. It's like a drug that temporarily alters reality.

There is something very interesting you should look in to.  Every time the rapture or Day of the Lord is mentioned in the Bible with respect to His coming at a time which is unknown or as a thief it is in reference to it happening in a post tribulational context.  I give you the verses in Matthew 24 & 25, Luke 12, Revelation 16:15, 1 Thess 5, 2 Peter 3 as examples.  However, our command is clearly to know the time and the season, but not necessarily the day and the hour.  Hence Revelation 3:3 says, “Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.” Also 1 Thess. .5:4 says “But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”  Matt 24:43-44, “But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”   So clearly the emphasis is that the unbeliever will be caught completely unaware while the believer should be watching and ready when he comes even at an hour when we do not expect him.  To me that means we are not going to be totally surprised nor are we going to be certain exactly when the prophetic clock begins the countdown on the number of days.  

The 144k which consists of 12K each from the 12 tribes of Israel is a very difficult issue because Revelations is so full of figurative language.  But I believe it means far more than just 144k Jewish evangelist.  Rather I believe this is representative of ALL nations who are part of the People of God that come together during this time.  There is serious Biblical evidence for this, for example, in Duet 32:7-9 the Lord says, “Remember the days of old; consider the generations long past. Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you.  When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.”  Jacob is also called Israel as you may know.  This is an ancient messianic text that implies that God would at some point gather the nations to himself according to the twelve tribes of Israel and they would ALL be his inheritance.  Amazing! Consider also the description of the Holy City and its inhabitance in Revelation.  Notice how both Israel and the Church appear in the architecture and how often 144 appears in the dimensions of the City described as the Bride of Christ.  You will not find this teaching anywhere else as far as I know, but this is a personal Revelation so I am not going to tell you this is matter of fact, only evidence that this somehow points to the truth.  Wow, I am getting fired up.  There is so much more I could write a book.  Rats, I have no credentials from pretrib institutions so it would never get published in evangelical Christendom.

To Reba,

The word rapture is simply a term used to describe what the Bible says is going to happen when Christ returns.  You know, “we will be caught together with them in the clouds…” that sort of thing.  It signifies what is clearly going to happen to those who are still here on earth when Christ returns regardless of when you believe it takes place.  You can call it foodlemorph if you want but those who are alive when he returns shall be transformed and will be joined with Christ at his coming.  The question is whether you believe in a pre-trib foodlemorph or post trib foodlemorph.  After the foodlemorph which the Bible says will take place on the last day, comes the millennial reign and then eternity.

As for the people of God issue please don’t get me started.   This is really a very deep issue, but I would ask you to look in your Bible and ponder the meaning of the two olive trees or two olive Branches as described in Zech., Romans and Revelation.  There is a separation of the two at present, meaning Israel and the Church but there is clearly a point in time when the two shall be joined together.


C'mon pre-tribbers, lets get those charts out.  Read a few more books if you must.  The challenge you are dealing with is that I have read your books and the entirety of the Bible more than once with specific emphasis on finding evidence to support exactly what you believe.  You see I was once a pre-tribber determined to prove it was true.  Yet I was convicted to believe otherwise not by some book, preacher or pamplet but by what I did discover in the Bible and that is what I decided to believe.  As an ex pre-tribber I can say with conviction you have probably not read the Bible in search of this question as I have, otherwise you would not be a pre-tribber.  You will not find something that I haven't read and pondered it in light of this question, but good luck anyway.  The Kraken prince (child of the king Jesus) awaits to sink your ship.

Why does the evangelical Church largely ignore Israel.  The answer is dispensational Pre-tribulationism!  One of my deepest concerns is for the people of God.  If you would read your Bible without dispensational lenses on you would realize there will come a day when we will all be ISRAEL (including Israel) and Israel will return to God!

C'mon all you pretribs.  Surely there is someone among you who can be your champion to refute the Bible.  Perhaps Lehay himself can come wrestle the Kraken.  There must be one among you educated enough in the complexities of dispensational theology to explain away what is and will be in favor of what isn't.  Trust me, I have read enough books and heard enough lectures from your teachers and authors to know there is a way to ignore a third of Biblical prophecies if necesarry and also twist the remainder.  

Here is a little diddy I just thought up for you:

Pick and choose, slice and dice, turn it upside down.  
We like two of everything, part of what is sound.  
Second comings, raptures all, resurrections too.
Tribulation, not for us, only for the Jew.  
Don't blame us for leaving soon, we care not much for you.  
There is little we imagine we can ever do.
Listen cloesly when we say, surely comes a day.
When Jesus Christ, has not a soul that's saved and here to stay.    

Who will tell them, thats a q, we don't really care
We are having steak tonight living way up there.
They will see that we are gone and then they will despair
Some may find a Bible that we left behind down there.

What a Church what a mission left in rubble great commission, double trouble for the rubble, we are GONE way past the Hubble!!!

...We Hope, but who gives a crap about all those Jews anyway!  

Christian,

The last great command that we have is to evangelize Israel.  The entire remnant will be saved when the full measure of Gentiles has been brought in.  We must return to the point of our origins and reach the people of God.  When she awakens to the gospel and her hard heart is melted it will be a marvelous sight that will be the most awesome event every witnessed on earth.  There will again be One People of God. Trust me when I tell you this, it will also unleash the most awesome persecution the Church has ever witnessed.  Who will be willing to go when the time is right?


I'll go and if necessary I'll die.

CONQUEST OF LO DEBAR
(The paradox of nothing)

In Hebrew the name Lo Debar means nothing.  It is a place name whose image conjures up a desolate condition enveloped in a sense of hopelessness and its conquest is a meaningless pursuit.  What we are going to examine is the paradox of those who mistakenly pursue the belief in nothing.  While thinking they are truly wise, they are, on the other hand, grasping at less than a void, naively attributing to “nothing” the very virtues of God. For if nothing is God then God is nothing.

Perhaps the most enigmatic belief in this world is that of pure atheism.  In its most fundamental capacity it is the belief that God does not exists and nothing or no one, certainly not God, is credited with creating all things.  Requisite to that premise is the conviction that everything that does exist is simply the byproduct of random chance, somehow evolving over eons of time from nothing.  For this, atheists hold the distinction of being the most ardent defenders and many even worshippers of probably the most faith-based religion the world ever imagined.  Evolution!  

To the atheists God is just perhaps the figment of our imagination and he is no more than the result of and even bygone remnant of the evolution of our intellect.  But atheistic faith must go much farther than worshipping at the shrine of evolution and human achievement.  Evolution, even if it were possible to accept as the means by which the universe is ordered, fails miserably to offer an explanation for the existence of the universe itself.  The progression of matter and energy from one form to another is insufficient to explain how it all came to be in the first place, even if the universe was once or at numerous times collapsed to a point as small as what the “big bang” theory postulates.  Atheists, even those who do not profess to believe in evolution, are simply without options to describe how the ordering principles of life began.  Even so, without God, they have little choice except to believe that the universe and all it contains was created by and from “nothing”.  “Nothing” it seems plays the prominent role in atheism, for it must be either creator or dreamer.  For them “nothing” is maker of law, ruler of worlds and unknowable god of the entire universe.  Yet, self-defined as logical pragmatists, atheists are faced with a long list of impossible paradoxes.  While the existence of God is no easy concept, at the very least, He can be logically demonstrated to be the uncaused first cause for everything, and beyond that there is only faith that He is who He says He is.  Atheism on the other hand must desperately grasp with all of its intellect and logic to the belief that “nothing” is as great or greater than God in its creative capacity to order worlds seemingly without end into being.  To the atheist, the child of nothingness, random chance, is the singer of songs and the director of music orchestrating the beautiful tapestry of life ever progressing in synergistic fashion.  It is the blind impartial organizer and architect for the countless particles of nature, each progressing in harmony to build ever more intricate systems of life, acting both at the same time in defiance of and in accordance with the profoundly faultless laws of nature, which “nothing” created. This in and of itself is a paradox of overwhelming contradictions that proves intelligent design requires an intelligent designer.  Yet chance never created anything and chance cannot even spell "The Theory of Evolution" if given a chance to draw random letters every second for all the time that ever was and ever will be.

From the vantage point of those who believe in God it is that we see an inexplicable blindness to the truth of God’s existence.  Notwithstanding this, those who are blind to this truth are often heralded by the world as the most intelligent and logical.  Those who hold to a belief in God are frequently ridiculed as the most simple-minded and foolish.   But it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a God and creator of it all.   The only alternative, even if you accept nothing beyond aliens bringing us here or that the world rest on the back of a giant turtle, is to believe in something that is paradoxically impossible.  Therefore, it is not those who believe in God who rely on faith the most, but it is those who do not believe in God that must have a greater faith in the magical power and mystical properties of Lo Debar.  Nothing!

Something cannot come from nothing, but what an Atheist is forced to believe is that something can come from nothing and indeed nothing by conquest of nothing created everything.  That takes more faith than anything.  That, my friend, is the great paradox of nothing.  

If God can thus be logically proven to be, then would it not be wise but to try and find out more about him and who he is?   For in the end there will be no excuse for anyone, because we are all witnesses to God’s eternal power and his invisible qualities as evidenced by creation.  

Psalms 14:1-3, “The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."