Amen!  

Do you believe we can choose Christ and be saved or do you think we are pre-destined (calvanist) to be saved or judged?

Oklahoma Howdy to Sean,

I think that many people have a lot of confusion and trouble with the term, "Predestination". Almighty God knows all in eternity past and eternity future. This is the meaning of predestination. Jesus wants all of mankind to love HIM, accept Him as their personal Saviour, and follow HIM as the Lord of their life. Almighty God's foreknowledge of all does not mean that HE has commanded some to be saved and some not to be saved. Almighty God simply knew before the foundation of the world your name, the number of hairs on your head, and whether or not you will accept Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour.

Some take the term of "Predestination" and claim that God commands and programs some people, much like robots, to become children of God. If this were true, HE would command all people to become children of God and obey HIS will and purpose. The world would be a beautiful place if this was true. However, Almighty God gave mankind will and choice to accept or reject Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

In Christ.

I agree with this, it is un-nerving to think it's not our free choice.  I certainly understand the difference between foreknowledge and pre-destination.  God is all knowing, but we have free will.  I was reading an arguement with people who believe God already made us "one way" (without will) and we do not have the abiblity in ourselves to choose or reject Him.

Ambassador4Christ,
I believe our very faith comes in realizing that we are broken spiritually, and can by no means save ourselves.  It is not until we set aside our sinful worldly view for a moment, and see our inability to please God in any way, that we call on Christ.  A new believer must realize this.  I talk to "believers/chuch goers/religeous people" that say, "I just live my life the best I can and hopefully it's good enough."  You can't be good enough, it seems they have missed the point because since they feel they are "good enough" that they don't need a saviour.  Until someone realizes they need a savior, they won't have faith in the Savior.

Do you believe we can choose Christ and be saved or do you think we are pre-destined (calvanist) to be saved or judged?

Are you a (pre-mil) dispensationalist?

I don't think you are being smart, as a matter of fact, you have driven me to "dig deep" in my heart and in the Bible.  I just think I have been misunderstood.  I just don't want potential Christians to see this forum and think that if they just "say the magic words" they will be saved and can continue in sin and they won't be held accountable.  Being saved is a serious conviction of your life and not to be taken "half-heartedly".

Read Ephesians 4 & 5.  They pretty much sum up what I mean.  To do what is good, because it is our way of giving thanks to the Lord.  I understand Ephesians 3 also.  It was not my intent to try and disprove Grace in any way.  Just that not all receive it.

[not to gain salvation]

His words are great to follow and to base our life upon.  They are not a new Law for us to receive Salvation.  

I wish you could receive the truth and be set free.

Can you please show me where I said there was a new Law that must be followed to receive Salvation.  This has never been a part of what I am saying.  I have been saying: Saved person [pasted tense] follows God and His will [present and future tense] because he/she loves the Lord.  It's done out of respect, not to gain salvation.

The saved should do the will of Jesus not to be saved but for 3 reasons.  

1.  To build treasure in heaven as Jesus teaches.

2.  To live a productive life, knowing you are saved you no longer   worry/obsess about money, power and other earthy worries since this life is temporary and will pass away but the saved will have etrernal life in His kingdom.

3.  So that the non-believers will see by your actions that we are loving and respectful, and no longer fear the very things the non-believers fear (as noted in #2) because of Jesus Christ.  When non-believers see the earthy things we do are good, they eventually ask what your "secret" is.  They think 'If Jesus could do that to them,  if He can take away the fear and worry, then maybe Jesus could transform my life as well.'  Obviously, the transformation Jesus has made in our lives is much more than our actions, it is the promise of our sins being coverd by His death on the cross and etrernal life in His kingdom.

[of all the nations]

Did Jesus say " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." ?

I know, I know. I know the answer  

Do you Sean?

Yes, He also said:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you"

[By that logic, You could take the term "By Grace you have been saved" to only apply to the Jews/Isrealites since that is who Jesus ministered to. For Jesus said: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24)]

 

You are missing my point.  Jesus came for the lost sheep of Isreal but they rejected Him so his grace has been extened to Gentiles as well.  I used those points to illustate your logic path, which I don't agree with, not to say Jesus Grace does not include us.

I said:

How do you interpret:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you"
to mean only the Jews/Isrealites?  By that logic, You could take the term "By Grace you have been saved" to only apply to the Jews/Isrealites since that is who Jesus ministered to.  For Jesus said: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24)

His teachings and grace are for all that are willing, not just the Jews/Isrealites.

My point is that you say everything Jesus said including after his resurrection does not apply to Gentiles even though he said "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you."  That's a dangerous statement since he spoke of our salvation too.

house of Israel, house of Judah,

The covenant was origianlly for them but since they rejected Christ 'The chief corner stone that was rejected' the covenant was extended to the Gentiles since the Jews rejected it.

I'll ask 2 questions:

Is it possible for someone under physical (water) baptizm in a church setting and not accept Christs' Grace?  (i.e. getting baptized because your family told you to, etc.)  Resulting in not being saved.

Do you believe any of Gods' commandments are sacred are have they "passed away" with the new covenant.  What would you tell someone who you are preaching too?  Do you tell them that once they are saved they will no longer be subject to the law or do you tell them that there is no law, no guide for the saved.

[of all the nations,]

Sounds like new covenant to me.

Point number one.  Jesus was still speaking to Isreal, the Gentiles are not on the list at that moment.

He was commanding the Isrealites to tell the other Isrealites to obey all that he commanded.  Paul/Saul was not even converted yet and He was the one who would be sent to the Gentiles with a new and living way.  The Jews were and are still the Jews.  

How do you interpret:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you"
to mean only the Jews/Isrealites?  By that logic, You could take the term "By Grace you have been saved" to only apply to the Jews/Isrealites since that is who Jesus ministered to.  For Jesus said: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24)

His teachings and grace are for all that are willing, not just the Jews/Isrealites.

Point number two, you have jumped from Matt 5 to Matt 28

That is a pretty big leap.

You can use all of Matthew (and the other Gospels) to learn of what Jesus commands, the Beattitudes are just one (but a big) example.

[except]

Sounds like new covenant to me.

That is a pretty big leap.

Yes, it is a pretty big leap & a bold claim to say that the Bible means nothing and you should not abide by anything Jesus taught except that we are saved by grace.  (Is that the only part of it that is still true?)  

Jeremiah 31:
31   "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32   not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33   "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Matthew 5:
17   "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18   "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19   "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20   "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

"All" has not yet been accomplished!  Unless you believe all things have been completed and we are in a renewed Heaven and earth with Satan locked up.

Here is another thread on the topic: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/43288-1.html

["Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,]

You still haven't addressed my quotes, or shown how they are out of context.  All your quotes are true, for those who are truely saved in Christ are saved!

Again Matthew 5:

1   When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
2   He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
3   "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4   "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5   "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6   "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7   "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8   "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9   "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10   "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11   "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
12   "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

The sermon on the mount was not about old covenant law, if it was, it would have been a little late since the old covenant was passing away.  These are not "Laws" that guarentee salvation.  
Someone can't loose something they never had.  If you reject the words of Christ, you reject Christ.  Then who will save you?

Matthew 28:
18   And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19   "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20   teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Sounds like new covenant to me.  Jesus [after his resurrection] says those who baptize us are to teach us to abserve all that He commanded [past tense].  

We are not saved by what we do...those who are saved do the things commanded by Jesus because they are saved.  Not in a willful act of compliance for salvation but bacause they are filled with the Holy Spirit & the Holy spirit is acting inside them.  It is not for us to judge the heart of others as to weather or not they are saved, but it is more a warning to new christians who don't know anything in the bible and get baptized without knowing what they are doing and go back to their lives before baptism and think they will make it.  It takes a willfull act of giving yourself to Christ.  "You must be born again [from above]".  Just getting water dumped on your head doesn't save you any more than circumcision saved in the OC.  "Flesh gives birth to flesh & spirit gives birth to spirit".  The Holy Spirit must be accepted.

I didn't mean to junk up your thread.  I just wanted others to know that just going through the act of baptism doesn't "save" you.  You must know what you are getting into and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior (and know what that means).  It doesn't mean "Ok, now I can go back to sinning and not be judged for it".  This attitude is that of someone who has decived himself and not accepted Christ.

May the Lord bless all of you.

[willfully]

If you become saved and never develop spiritually in the will and word of God and fall away willfully and love the world instead of the Word of God then you also turn your back on the on who saves by grace.  This person never was saved to begin with, so there was no salvation to loose.  Grace is a free choice.  If we do not chose it, will will not get it.  

Turning your back on the Word of God is a sure way to not receive salvation in the first place, because this means you are turning your back on the Savior, Jesus Christ who is the Word of God.

God knows the beginning from the end & knows the heart.  God cannot be mocked.  

"There is only ONE GOSPEL, THE GOSPEL OF GOD'S GRACE. One can end tremendous confusion by trying to understand GRACE, the reason for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and the PROMISE OF GOD for those who believe and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. Every child of God should have and can have 100% assurance they are SAVED FOR ETERNITY. GOD SAID IT, IT'S DONE!"

I agree with this.  The point is simple, saying your saved & getting baptized does not save you anymore more than keeping the law.  What saves you is belief and acceptance of the Savior Jesus Christ.  There is no "easy grace" that saves everyone who merely calls to Jesus. it is belief and acceptance which are defined in the NT passages I have quoted.

Matthew 7:
21   "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22   "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23   "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Merely calling to the Lord Jesus is not enough.  Jesus was clearly talking to people who believed Jesus was the Christ and was not talking just to non-believing Jews.  This is apparent by the passage "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

You must believe and accept that Jesus is your savior and you will be saved forever!

[profess]

So you are basically saying that what Jesus said in Matthew is irrelevent and that Jesus didn't realize he was wasting his breath because the old covenent passed when Jesus was crucified.

So the Sermon on the Mount & the Beatitudes are irrelevent?  We shouldn't even worry about doing Gods' will since we will be saved anyway?  And all the passages I cited don't have merrit, but your opinion does?  Sorry but I believe Jesus' teachings are not irrelevent.  You can't pick and choose what part of the Bible you want to believe.  

No one can serve two masters.  Either you love the Lord or you love earthly sinful things.  If you follow the Lord and stumble along the way you will be forgiven.  If you follow the sinful world you cannot also follow the Lord, even if you think you are saved.  You cannot accept Christ as Lord and savior if you love worldly things.  That would be turning you back on Jesus and his free grace.  It's a choice we all have.


Titus 1:
15   To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
16   They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

1 John 1:
 5   This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6   If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7   but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8   If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9   If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10   If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 2:
1   My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2   and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3   By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4   The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5   but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected.  By this we know that we are in Him:
6   the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

[Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.]

Matthew 6:
14   For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15   But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Matthew 7:
1   "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2   "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3   "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4   "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5   "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Not everyone that claims Jesus is Lord will be saved:

Matthew 7:
13   "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14   "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
---
19   "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20   "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21   "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22   "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23   "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Here are those that performed miracles in Jesus name and call Jesus Lord and are still not saved.  Why?  Because they did not do the will of the Father.

Matthew 7:
24   "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25   "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26   "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27   "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."

Jesus doesn't say to hear him and believe and you automatically get saved, but those who hear his words and act on them will be saved.  But if you hear his words and continue to live in sin with the attitude that your sins are covered anyway, you will not be saved.

Matthew 13:
20   "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21   yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
22   "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23   "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

Sean, to many twists and turns Bro. Christ died"FOR"our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Thats ALL sins, Past, Present and Future. I dont agree with you on some of your points, but thats OK  

Yes, that's ok.  So lets talk about it.  What part don't you agree with?  Are you saying that everyone is automatically saved?