[no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.]

Sorry, but the ten commandments were not given that anyone by keeping them perfectly could ever be saved, they were given that man could know, when he had sinned against God, by considering whether or not he had broken them.  and it only took breaking one to break the whole law.

Rom 3
20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The 10 commandments, were only, past of the law given to Moses.  The law in view in Rom 3:29, above was the Law of Moses.

Notice how man is justified before God;

Rom 3
28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

And then the scriptures use Abraham, as an example to us of how he was justified;

Rom4
1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

King David, knew of the blessedness of Grace, since God who justified him, even forgave his sin, of causing the death of Uriah, Bathsheba's husband  (2 Sam 12:13-15), And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David.

Now is there any truth to the statement that the ten commandments will be used to judge men, on judgment day??

The answer is NO;

Notice what;

Rev 20;  says..
11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Since noone can be saved by the keeping the law (ten commandments) perfectly (and this is the only work, which could possibly be accepted by God, since it was His law, written on tablets of stone, written by His own finger), then it stands to reason, the ten commandments cannot be used to judge mankind, since it is by what man does to try and justify himself, apart from the law, he knows he has not kept, that is offensive to the Spirit of Grace.

Whoever works, does dispise to the Spirit, and this is what is the real blasphemy spoken of by Jesus.

At any rate, all men will be judged according to their works.

And only those who are of the same faith as Abraham, have their names written into the "book of life"

Rom 4, David speaking;
7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9  Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10  How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12  And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18  Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19  And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20  He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21  And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22  And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23  Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24  But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25  Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

As for judgement at the house of God, it cannot be the 10 comandments either because, all believers are no longer under the Law of Sin and Death , but under the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ, which sets every believer free from the Law of Sin and Death. (Rom 8:2)

So what is the conclusion of this matter;

Those who are saved are...." justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Rom 3:24-28)

And that faith is a gift of God Eph 2:8-9.




Blesings,

Petro

Well, pnotc,

I guess you can give us the poop, whether we want it or not..

Heh........

Petro

[12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.]

Revelation 22:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that DO his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Ollie,

On reply #25, you gave us your take on this passage,;

posted by Ollie, reply#25;

Are doing His commandments considered work?
Is doing something necessary to have the right to the tree of life and entrance through the gates into the city, ( New Jerusalem)?

You did good, though on your other posts..I totally concurr with them, except for Reply #47, you are just simply presuming Rev 22:14, reads according to your take on it.

However you do greatly error here..........the doing (work) emphasized, is not for the right, to the tree of life , but evidence of having that right to access the tree of life by virtue of being an heir, of the promise by faith in Christ, and as we have already established,   that faith was a gift by the Grace of God.

Keeping the commandments, is not work at all....it is a privilige... wouldn't you agree??

Revelation 22:14.  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Little by little, were getting to the truth, that God may be glorified in the end;

Read the margin, of your bible, and you will find the preferreed reading for this verse in the portion you rely for your faith, works,  version of what you keep trying to emphasize.

Its coming, little by little, word by word, precept upon precept, its like pulling teeth, but I know we are making progress, here a little and there a little.

The preferred reading for ;

14  Blessed are they that do his commandments,.....

is,

14  Blessed are those who wash their robes,  .........

there is no need for me, to expound this for you, since if you take the time to research it, you will, understand why the different translation, and it will be a blessing to you..cause you will have found it on your own.

PS  Even the Greek English Lexicon/Interlinear, reads "who wash their robes" at the margin.. as the preferred reading, of this translation.

Neither reading teaches salvation by works but rather works as the fruit and proof of salvation.

Only true believers have access to the tree of life and to the eternal city.


Praise Him..Amen??

Petro

[weren't all that]

It's a wonder anyone can be a believer. I can't do anything. I can't have faith, I can't receive, I can't open a door, I can't shut a door, I can't hear, I can't obey, I can't repent, I can't respond, I can't ask, I can't knock, I can't seek, I have nothing to do with anything, I can only rebel.
Grace is meaningless to me because I have no part in it. It is fruitless to tell anyone anything 'cause they can't do anything about what I tell them anyway.
Jesus should have said, Don't repent or believe 'cause you can't do it anyway, I have to do it for you.
You make the word of God of none effect because it cannot bring about a response in me. I am a puppet with no free will.
Now you can begin to speak out of the other side of your mouth.

In His Love,

asaph

asaph,

You are begining to get it..

You can't because you are dead...............in sin and tresspass, in your case, it may be you weren't all that dead.

I wouldn't claim otherwise.

Understanding that one is spiritually dead, to God, is a good place to begin.  Unless God calls any man forth by name from the dead, he can never hear God.  

Maybe you heard  of your own doing, according to your version, I don't think this is true, you may..

If one begins understanding he was spiritually dead, he won't allow the idea that he believed go to his head.  And give occasion to the flesh to claim, in boasting  "I beleived", which you all do...

The truth is, everyone whom God saves, was given the gift to believe..what he could never believe, and without divine intervention everyone will have perished.

I am amazed, christians want to take credit for it..

What you and those who believe your version of God's great work, abhorr (because you don't want God to get all of the Glory, you seek a little bit your own glory), I find confort in, that God did all that was necessary for my salvation, even giving me, the faith, to believe in Jesus, whom I never cared about and would have never come to left to my own devices.

Praise God..



Petro

[Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.]

Psam 119,

Amen,  

I love this verse;

Eph 6
13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18  Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


God Bless,  

Petro

[These things saith He that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;]

Ollie,

On the surface, this one verse by itself, sure sounds as thou it, would support your theory.

However, the context of this passage must be considered in its entirety, and then in order to understand it, must be supported by the entire teaching of all other scripture.


Here is the entire passage:  Please keep in mind who is speaking here:

Rev 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The key to understanding this passage, is found in verses 7 and 20.

But this is not where it ends, consider this passage; the Apostle John writes, concerning Jesus;


Jhn 12
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38  That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41  These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42  Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43  For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44  Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Now the key verses in this passage, shed light on the idea who hears and opens at verse you quote (Rev 3:20)

And in this final passage the answer is found to your theory, only those who receive the words of God and keep it, by doing it are given to Jesus by the Father.

Jhn 17
17:1  These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4  I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 [/b]I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were,[/b] and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


And finally, please note verse 6, them whom God gives to Jesus, belonged to Him, before they were given to Jesus,

So,  then if this is true, those who hear Jesus knocking at the door, do so, because they believed God, and because it was given to them to hear from  heaven of God.

Jhn 3
27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Where is free will here, the best that can be made of this is that any man who receives hearing and understanding from God,  to do anything that regards God or the things of God, for God, is excersicing that which has been given to him, honestly..


God Bless,

Petro

pnotc,

you said;

Yeah, those of us who believe know grace is free and salvation unmerited.  A gift of pure mercy and benevolence, unearned and unforced

According to SoA, grace is not part of the gift, it is the vehicle God uses to impart salvation which is the gift, of Eph 2:8-9.    Which is it??


and then again;

All we claim to do is respond to God's offer of Grace.  I'm sorry that bothers you so much, but it isn't a "work", it isn't earning our salvation or saving ourselves.  It is the acceptance of the free gift of grace, the grace which brings salvation.  You know, you never did answer my question:  how would you react to your 2-week old son if he pooped on the rug, even after you told him not to and made it perfectly clear you abhorred it, hated it and could not even stand to look upon it?  

Are you likening yourself to a two year old child still, pooping whereever it please you??  

You said, You were 33 years old bible school graduate, as I recall, by know you ought to be a teacher  (remember you taught bible to high school and college aged young people)
and yet from what you would teach herein, it appears you need to be taught the first principles of of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk.

This is evidenced by your wanderings, from the Wesleyan (non-denominational camp) to nearly the opposite end of the spectrum of mans version of christondom, Orhtodoxy, because of every wind of doctrine, that catches yopur fancy.

You have to admit you have gone a long way, from praying directly to God, through Jesus, to praying to God, through dead saints, which can't hear...............you, anyhow.



Petro

[this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.]

Petro,

I used to believe that it reallly didn't matter as to whether one is pre, mid, or post trib.....but over the years I have seen the rotten fruit of the pre trib view.

Many that adhere to the pre-trib view have an escapism mentality. Many believe they will never suffer persecution, or even martyrdom....that it's a very remote chance....since  they will be gone when it all occurs.

This doctrine flies in the face of the millions of Christians who have been martyred for their faith in the past century. They were not raptured out....maybe it's because they're not Americans? It's like American Christians are somehow immune to persecution or martyrdom....unless you go to the mission field in some foreign country.

I know this isn't a salvation issue, but sound doctrine does matter. If one does not believe that he could be persecuted or martyred, could that make one a possible canidate for the "great falling away?

We should hope for the best (in the Lord) but be prepared (spiritually) for the worst case scenario .(actually receiving a martyr's crown would be an honor)

Blessings,
Psalm 119

Psalm 119,


I agree with you, and you are right, the teaching, doies lead to other doctrines which are questionable, Just 2 weeks ago, when questioning a Christian Pastor, who is solidly, entrenched in this teaching, abruptly, ended the conversation, saying, I am sick an tired with people  arguing with me on this matter, and walked away, and then in talking with a member of his church, come to find out, this was a big issue in his church, because of his, unyielding stance to a questionable doctrine.  Oh, well; he later apoligized, and we patched things, over, I told him, I never new about the problems he was experiencing, but simply wanted to see, what scriptures he relied in to stand so firm, on such teaching, but he never answered, mainly because there are no air proof answers.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in a rapture, but, not Pre Trib.

The biggest question I have is how do they, get around, the return at Jesus second coming;
where the angel said;

Acts 1
10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


The Pre Trib rapture, as explained by those that subscribe to it, have Jesus, simply returning in the air, and never setting foot on the earth, yet;

There is no scripture, which supports the idea that Jesus, leaves His place at the right hand of the Father in heaven twice.

God Bless,

Petro

Psalm 119,

I wanted to add to what I had said, that the belief or teaching of the rapture itself are secondary issues, which to my knowledge are NOT based of heretical teaching or otherwise, and therefore are not as important as the doctrines, which lay the foundations to repentance, faith, baptism and works, so, whether one believes in Pre Trib, Post Trib, No Trib or is Almillial or not, in itself are not a big deal;  what makes them a big deal is when other teachings are incorporated into it, that change the truth of scripture, to that of lies and contradictions.

For instance, if one believes in the Tribulation, or not and then, rejects the earthly reign of Jesus, it ususally does not end here, but goes on to teach other doctrines which in turn reject, the saving of national Israel, then we've got problems.

Because this is the period of time, when God re establishes the Nation as the head isntead of the tail, and fulfills His promises to Jacob, and the Nation.

And if God does not fulfill promises to srael, what hope can we have he fulfills, the promises he has made to us (gentiles).

The Tribulation, will bring on the "Day of the Lord", and it is a day, wherein He has set, whereby He will pour out His wrath on the Earth, a vivid picture of this day, is painted in the Books of  Isaiah, Ezekial, Joel, Zephaniah.

If Christians, are not taken out the earth, prior or during to the Tribulation, God is perfectly well and able to keep, His elect from His wrath, according to His  Will.

So either way, Cristians, should not worry..about the wrath of God.

Blessings,  
Petro

Good Bless,

[your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ,]

Petro,
Some thoughts on your question and mine.


The work of faith is the work refered to in Revelation 2 and 3 inn Christ's messages to the seven churches. Christ goes into more detail on this work of faith in the individual messages.

1 Thessalonians1:3.  Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

2 Thessalonians 1:11.  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
 12.  That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Christ's words and doctrine are the commandments to be done.

John 14:23.  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Commandments were given to the Apostles through the Holy Ghost which were given to first century people by word, and  to us in their writings.

Acts 1:2.  Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

1 Corinthians 14:37.  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


Again God's people are to keep His word. His words are the commandments.

1 John 2:3.  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
 4.  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 5.  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
 6.  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


 1 John3:22.  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
 23.  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
 24.  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.:


1 John 5:1.  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
 2. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
 3.  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 4.  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
 5.  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


 2 John 1:5.  And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
 6.  And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.


 Revelation 12:17.  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Revelation 14:12.  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 
Jesus' words and the words of the inspired writers are the commandments to do and keep.
The work of faith is that which justifies Christians before God and will allow Christians into that final rest.

Ollie,

you said;

posted by Ollie,
The work of faith is that which justifies Christians before God and will allow Christians into that final rest.

None of the verses, you quoted above are tied to the final sentence , which I posted above for you.

Because they are based on obedience, due to already being saved.

Do you see, the "faith" that justifies, as a gift from God??


Rom 10
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by the hearing of Gods word.

And yet faith cannot be received unless it is given from above, according to Jesus;  He said;

Mk 4
23  .................. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

So then the faith that justifies, is it really a work produced by man or God??

Consider this verse before you answer this question.

Jhn 6
26  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Is the faith necessary to believe, a gift of God??

and secondly??

Is the work of faith a work of man,  or of God, who works in those whom God elects to believe, what man cannot believe , on his own,..........

without God working in him, to "will and do of God's own pleasure"??

Phil 2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This is hard to accept, isn't it??

Blessings,

Petro

Ollie,

So what are the commandments, which are to obeyed, in order to enter, the city and have right to the treee of life??

or,  if you cannot answer this;

What is the labor or work in the verses, you have shared, needed to be done.

Petro

[IF]

So it sounds as though, after Rev 20:4-5, IF all the Christian church is removed from off the earth, there shouldn't be anyone that is a Christian on the earth.

This passage does not give the impression there is a rapture at this point, at verse 11, there is the great white throne judgement. It sounds like the end of the age.


It is clear from Mat 24:29-30, Jesus returns "imediately after the tribulation of those days,

And verse 31, says;  "his angels will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Question.............. if this is after the end of the Tribulation of these days, and this is the Rapure, which according to vs 31, includes every last Christian from one end of heaven to the other;

How is it there is a camp of the saints, here on the earth??,  surrounded by the armies of the nations of the world which Satan (at verse 9 of Rev 20), brings around the beloved city, Jerusalem, and this can not be the heavenly Jerusalem, since it has not come down from heaven, yet..

The heavenly Jerusalem comes down after God creates a new heaven and a new earth.

Something doesn't sound right, here??




Petro

Petro-

Nope, I'm not the one who talked about misintepretations of Romans, though I certainly agree with that statement.  I think it was offered by SOA.  

And just as I thought - you can't reconcile the verses. Your proof-texts fall apart when taken in light of the totality of scripture.  I can reconcile them perfectly well.  My challenge was to see if you could, and you clearly cannot.  

"The POV's shared here from those who claim to possess faith, is self evident, that their faith is not on what God, has done and continues to do, but in what they (those who claim it)themselves do."

All we claim to do is respond to God's offer of Grace.  I'm sorry that bothers you so much, but it isn't a "work", it isn't earning our salvation or saving ourselves.  It is the acceptance of the free gift of grace, the grace which brings salvation.  You know, you never did answer my question:  how would you react to your 2-week old son if he pooped on the rug, even after you told him not to and made it perfectly clear you abhorred it, hated it and could not even stand to look upon it?  

"But unto us who believe, the Holy Spirit is given, that we might know the things that are freely given to us by Him."

Yeah, those of us who believe know grace is free and salvation unmerited.  A gift of pure mercy and benevolence, unearned and unforced.  

"Proof of this is in the doctrines you espouse to, which deny the gift of eternal security,  you simply deny it, making God out to be a liar."

Really?  Why are we told then, that those who endure to the end will be saved?  Why does Paul himself state it may be possible for even him to lose his final reward?  Why does Hebrews 6 talk of those who fall away, never to be brought back to repentance?  Likely more references you cannot reconcile.  

"That you are a sinner is true, and so am I, but thank God, he has forgiven me.. He can do the same for you.."

He already has.

You know, I'm sometimes gifted with prophecy.  I prophesy that you will not respond to a single argument or question, will not even attempt to reconcile the scripture references, and will respond in a post laced with invective and insults.  

pnotc,

You stated, you do not believe in "eternal security" a mere page back, (maybe not even that), are you saying you have found faith in it, today..??

If you have I congratulate you..there still is hope for you..


Petro

Petro-

Your ignorance and arrogance are just astounding!  Yes, I attended a non-denominational church and I led college aged and senior high Bible studies.  But that church has never even come close to accepting any of your Calvinist garbage!  So how am I being dishonest in denying its tenets?  Why should I have divulged to the parents of the youth I taught that I didn't buy into Calvinism's lies, when they didn't believe it either?  Are you really so ignorant as to think that every non-denominational church believes as your church does?  The church I attended was affiliated with the Church of God out of Anderson, IN, which falls distinctly into more a Wesleyan-Arminian perspective. Furthermore, my church wasn't in full agreement with the Church of God's position on many pietistic issues.  Look it up for yourself and see how far off your beliefs about me really are.

"This is the epitamy of decit, to withold your repugnant feelings towards doctrines, these  parent  wanted their children to know, learn, and understand."

Really?  Then I guess the youth pastor, senior pastor, worship arts pastor, children's education pastor, small groups pastor and every other volunteer and leader at my church had best quit.  The epitome (get a spell checker!) of deceit?  Hardly!  No one wanted their children to know, learn and understand those doctrines: the parents didn't believe that nonsense themselves.  

As for your statements on exactly what councils did or did not teach, you'll excuse me if I call into question your ability to accurately interpret their pronouncements, since you obvsiously rush to judgment in areas where you are completely devoid of knowledge.  

For your research, here is the Church of God website:
www.chog.org

And my former church's site:
www.mountainpark.org (but the link appears to be down right now)  

Take a look for yourself.  I won't hold my breath on an apology.

pnotch,

You said non-denominational, if you would have said, Weslyan, or Methodist, with another name, then we would have understood.

There are churches today who hold the name Chruch of God, which have roots in Mormonism, just as the Catholic chruch has churches, which have Christian Charismatic Fellowships, or Assembly of God churches with names like Christian Centers.

These try to pass off as non-denominational, but their theology, make them denominational..

So, you should have used more precise words.



Petro

Harry,

The natural man, cannot do spiritual good at all, unless he is first born of the spiritual incorruptible seed.
 
The Word of God.

Anyhow, how did you mean to tie this to your caption, of repentance??


Blessings,

Petro