ChristiansUnite Forums

I beleive Jesus is the son of God,not God himself.

John 7:16 "Jesus answered them and said, 'My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.' "

John 14:24 "He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but The Father's who sent me."

John 12:49 "For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak."

I believe in the Trinity which is one God-head – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - so, in fact I believe Jesus IS (not was) God.  However when Jesus walked the earth as a man, He walked in two roles – one as human and the other as divine.  When Jesus acted in His human nature, He was God's Son.  When Jesus acted in His divine nature, He was God (and still IS).  Sounds schizophrenic – but I assure you God has it all worked out.  For God to die for our sins He had to come to earth as man and be tempted as man is tempted.  The logical way to do that was as the Son.  Read the first few lines of the Gospel of John: I understand it to say Jesus is the Word, and the Word IS, WAS, and always WILL be.  That can only be said about God; hence, Jesus is God.  Another example – only God can forgive sins.  Jesus forgives sins.  Thus, again, Jesus is God.

Posted by: Jabez  Posted on: Today at 01:57:08pm  
I beleive Jesus is the son of God,not God himself.
 
Geetings, and shalom :

Let us look at the scriptures, and see what the word of God
has to say in answer to your question!

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not

We see here that Jesus(the Word) was in the very beginning
with Eloim, and the Word was God.  In verse 3 we see that
all of creation was made by Jesus. now let us go for a trip to
the book of Gen.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the flesh--Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

justified in the spirit---1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

seen of angels---Joh 20:11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
Joh 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

preached unto the gentiles--see book called bible  (lol  :))

believed on in the world--act 2:38-Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

received up into glory--Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

In the book of col. we are told that all of the godhead was in
Yeshua(jesus)-Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Let us now go to the book of Phil.
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I can list scriptures from the book of Gen--to the book of Rev.
but I believe that this is a good start, if you would like more
scriptures please ask, and I will gladly present more proof of
the deity of Yeshua.

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

 :)ravenloche :)

Amen ravenloche!

Very well said.

Grace and Peace!

AMEN! JudgeNot and Ravenloche.

Jabez, Almighty God is indeed a Holy Trinity, 3 Holy Deities in ONE ALMIGHTY AND ALL POWERFUL GOD. Jesus Christ took the lowly form of a man and died on the Cross for you and me. Yes, they crucified GOD, VERY GOD, but HE arose from the dead and is our Precious Lord and Saviour.

Jabez, this is part of the mystery not known to men of other ages. Jesus Christ did suffer pain and death in the form of a man to be offered as a perfect sacrifice and GIFT! HE LIVES so that we might live and call upon HIS NAME to be the Lord and Saviour of our lives. If we accept God's Grace, Love, and Perfect GIFT, HIS Holy Spirit indwells our hearts and sets us apart as children of God. The Holy Spirit is also GOD, VERY GOD.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!

Love in Christ,
Tom

Ive always beleived in God,The Son and the Holy Ghost.God knows my heart yet i feel awful for not knowing this.I tell you the truth, i have been learning so much and iam filled with great joy beyond words.May God continue to guide me in truth.Thank you all for your wonderful responses.

Ray

Oklahoma Howdy to Jabez,

Brother, I know you are learning a lot. I'm thinking that it might be possible you are going too fast and trying to digest too much at once. It's nothing to feel bad about. I think you will enjoy it much more if you slow down just a little. The real beauty and power of the Holy Bible is seen when you see how various portions link together and compliment one another. When you start to see this, you know beyond any doubt that it must be the Inspired Word of God.

Maybe we could make some suggestions if we knew what version of the Bible you are studying and what method or plan you are using to study. I will be happy to help you in any way that I can.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Jesus always claimed to be the son of God, not God. He talked about one greater than Him all the time. Also, when talking about the end of the age Jesus said, "No one knows the hour, not even the son." He acknowledged He is not omniscient. He was WITH Hi Father in the beginning and will sit at the RIGHT HAND of the Father in the end. He was conceived of a human being and the Holy Spirit. God is and always was. I have no problem with the fact that Jesus is the son of God, not God Himself. He is still the only way to God.

If I had a nickel for every time I've felt this way brother... ;)  Follow Tom's advice.  It is very sound.   :)

This has been the hang up for so many people for so many years, and it's basis is in a lack of understanding.  Not biblical/spiritual understanding alone, but also in scholarship.  Christ Himself stated to the disciples on the road to Emmaus...


I find it very interesting how Jesus began teaching them - with Moses (the Pentateuch - first five books of the Old Testament) and the Prophets.  Moses laid the very ground work for the need, and the inevitable beginnings of provision for Christ's birth, and sacrifice.  The prophets shed further light and revelation on the form that sacrifice would take.

Now.  It is simple to say that this is in prophetic understanding of Jesus being born as Son of God.  However, if you look at the Old Testament, and the light that the New Testament sheds thereon...we see an eternal member of the Godhead, 3 in 1, from the very beginning.  Genesis 1 tells us of Elohim, a plural form of the word we translate God.  Is this then a wrong translation?  No!  We must remember how it was received by the Jews to whomst it was originally written.  They understood it to be God, not Gods.  Even the word the Hebrews used in describing the One God meant a duplicitous nature - One God, More Persons.  The New Testament sheds further light.  One God, Three Persons.

The New Testament irrevocably presents Jesus as God.  Yes, as the Son in the Godhead, but no less, or no more God than the Father.  Uniquely, the Holy Spirit is likewise presented.  

It takes faith to accept what we cannot fully comprehend.  But then, is that not how God deals with us at all times?  It takes faith.  But it is not a faith that is without basis.  It is faith based upon the word.  And is that not the very definition of faith?

Hey guys,
Let’s do this – let’s just ask Jesus.  (After all – most of us speak to Him several times a day, anyhow.)
Dear Lord Jesus, are you God?

John 10:30

Thank you, Dear Jesus for showing us Your answer. AMEN!
 ;D

Amen Judgenot!  :)

Thank you Tom and all!

Bibles iam useing are:
1-New International Version-I read this mainly
2-King James Version-Reference with what i read in the above.

My plan as of now is just to read the whole NT,which ive never done.Allow the spirit to guide me truth!

Oklahoma Howdy to Jabez,

Brother, I highly recommend e-Sword, the computer Bible Study package that is available free if you download it:

http://www.e-sword.net/ (http://www.e-sword.net/)

Others may disagree, but I would be studying the KJV. If you download e-Sword, there are a ton of free dictionaries, commentaries, and Bible Study aids you can add to e-Sword and quickly switch back and forth between various translations of the Bible and all of the study aids. I like to use the KJV with Strong's Numbers built in. You put your mouse over a Strong's Number, and the Strong's definition pops up for the word. There is a huge selection of Bible Dictionaries that are interactive with the Bible while you read it. Other than Strong's, I use Easton, Naves, Vines, and Webster's fairly often. If you click a word while reading, a symbol comes up on the dictionaries with addional information. I have all of the commentaries installed. If you click on a verse, a symbol comes up on the commentaries with additional information. e-Sword is excellent.

If you click on a book of the Bible, a symbol comes up on each commentary with a preface to the book. This really helps in giving you an idea about the purpose, audience, and writer of the book. It's simply nice to set the stage before you start reading.

Reading the entire New Testament very slowly is a good idea. However, I would recommend that you do considerable study of the entire Bible before trying to read and digest Revelation. I'll try to come up with some ideas for you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

jabez,

What do you make of these verses??

1 Tim 3
16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jhn 1
1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


These are the types of excersizes that strengthens the FAITH.

Heb 5
13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Your questions show plainly you are doing some heavy chewing, this is a good sign..it means you have strong teeth... and growing in the knowledge of the Lord.

God Bless,

Petro

If we were to go on just two verses,then yes,Jesus WAS God:-
Jesus said:-"I and my Father are one and the same" (John 10:30), and "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:8)But a number of other verses make it clear that he was using a figure of speech only,and that in fact he WASN'T God:-
"Why do you call me good? Only God is good" (Luke 18:18)
and "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be,I don't know myself" (Matt 24:36)
 Jesus himself said he was SON of God  (NOT God) when the High Priest asked:-"Are you the Son of God?", and Jesus replied:-"I am" (Mark 14:61)
Finally,Jesus often prayed to God. But if he WAS God why would he pray to himself?

Well, Mick - I repeat:



God is spirit.  God took on a earthly role as an incarnate man.

mick,

There is no other savior but God.

Note;

Isa 43
11  I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


If Jesus is the Savior, and the scriptures declare that He is;

Lk 2
11  For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

He is God.

Not everyone can know nor understand this, since it is given to be understood by God the Spirit. (Mat 13:11, 1 Cor 4:1)

Are you a born again Christian??

Blessings,

Petro

First,I never call myself a Christian,as only God can judge if we qualify to bear that name;I prefer to simply say "I try to follow that young carpenter from Nazareth"
Second,notice that many people on these boards say "I believe this" or "I believe that" ,but I myself always try to avoid giving my own beliefs,as I prefer to go on what the SCRIPTURES say.
And the scriptures I posted earlier in this thread plus a bit of commonsense thrown in,make it clear enough Jesus WASN'T God. Again I ask:-Jesus often prayed to God,but if he WAS God why would he pray to himself?
Here's the great Chapter 17 of John,where Jesus speaks directly to his separate Father yet at the same time refers to himself and the disciples and all believers BEING ONE TOGETHER.Thus we are all ONE with God,just as Jesus was,but we don't say we ARE God do we?

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

When Jesus prayed,he prayed to GOD.Jesus being GOD was he praying to himself?

It is quite evident that you have not carefully studied ALL the Scriptures regarding the deity of Christ. Therefore your statement "Jesus always claimed to be the son of God, not God" is incorrect.  This is what the Jehovah's Witnesses and other rejecters of Christ's deity claim, but it is simply not true. Also, to the Jews of Jesus' day the title "Son of God" was indeed equal to "GOD" (Matt. 26:63-65).  This is something which is conveniently overlooked.

You might recall that when Moses asked God His name, this is how God [Elohim] responded: "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you... The LORD [YHWH] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; THIS IS MY NAME FOR EVER, and this is my memorial unto all generations" (Exod. 3:14,15).

When Jesus of Nazareth was called "a Samaritan" and accused of being possesed with a demon by the unbelieving Jews (John 8:12-59) here is what He said to them: "VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM." (Jn. 8:58).  The Jews understood this to be an open and direct claim by Jesus that He was none other than YAHWEH, the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, since "I AM" was and is His name eternally. Therefore they took up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (v. 59; Jn. 9:33) and that is precisely why they sentenced Him to death -- "HE MADE HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD" : "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also THAT GOD WAS HIS FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD" (Jn 5:18).  

We know Jesus is equal with God because Scripture says that "He thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Phil.2:6), and God the Father says to God the Son: "Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever... Therefore GOD, even thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.  And thou LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of thine hands..." (Heb. 1:8-10).

The problem with your understanding is that if Christ is not very God, then Christianity becomes polytheism, since the Lord Jesus Christ was and is worshipped as GOD. What did doubting Thomas say to Him: "My Lord and my God" (jn. 20:28).

Christ said "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father: and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME?... Believe me, THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME (Jn.14:9-12).

Jesus is GOD - Part One

The entire Holy Bible, from cover to cover, bears witness of the Holy Trinity, the plurality of deities in THE ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. The Old Testament clearly speaks of Almighty God with numerous Names, and prophesy is given of things to come. However, very little was revealed about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament except prophesy which was probably misunderstood by most men of the time. The full knowledge of Jesus Christ was a mystery not known to men of other ages until He is revealed in the New Testament. The same is true of full knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

The teaching of the entire Holy Bible makes it exceptionally clear that Almighty God was the same for eternity past and will be the same for eternity future. Almighty God was and is a Holy Trinity, yet ONE ALMIGHTY GOD: (God, the Father), (God, the Son), and (God, the Holy Spirit). All three deities of the eternal Godhead are known by various names throughout the Holy Bible.

Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Portions of John are often quoted by some trying to prove that Jesus Christ was not God. Jesus Christ was and is THE SON OF GOD, one of the Holy Deities of the Godhead, VERY GOD. The portions of Scripture quoted are those involving quotes of Jesus Christ while HE was in the form of a man, as HE humbled Himself to fulfill law and prophesy, die for the sins of mankind, offer Himself as the perfect sacrifice, and be the LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR for all who would believe and ask HIM to be the LORD of their lives. YES, Jesus Christ was GOD before the foundation of the world, and Jesus Christ is GOD for all eternity.

Please read and study the above portions of Scripture for absolute proof that Jesus Christ was and is VERY GOD.  "The Word" is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and HE was "The Word" in the beginning, and "The Word" was with God, and "The Word" was GOD. "The Word", Jesus Christ, was made flesh and dwelt among us. "I AM" is GOD, and Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am."

This is just a tiny sample of Scriptures that prove Almighty God is a Holy Trinity, yet ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. Disrespect or blasphemy against Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit is disrespect or blasphemy against Almighty God, AS THE THREE ARE ONE. Those who deny THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT as ALMIGHTY GOD are false teachers who deny GOD and are accursed.

Love In Christ,
Tom

If you can accept BY FAITH that God is three Persons -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that the Son on earth was Jesus of Nazareth -- "a man approved by God" and completely dependent on the Father -- then it should not be puzzling to understand why Jesus prayed to the Father, not Himself.

At the same time, this is a mystery, so to try and get a grasp on this with your limited human intellect is an exercise in futility. We believe God even when we don't fully understand.  That is trust in the living God.

Jesus is GOD - Part Two

(Please see the following Scriptures that testify of "The Word".)

Revelation 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

1 John 1:1  That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

(Who made the worlds?)

Hebrews 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

(Jesus was speaking in the form of a lowly man, yet HE plainly speaks of a glory HE had with the Father before the world was. So, who was Jesus Christ, and what kind of glory did HE have with the Father? He was ONE of the TRIUNE GODHEAD, GOD, THE SON, VERY GOD.)

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

(Below you will see the description of the TRIUNE GOD, THE HOLY TRINITY, yet ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. "The Word" is Jesus Christ, GOD, THE SON. "The Holy Ghost" is also known as the Holy Spirit, GOD, THE HOLY SPIRIT.  You should notice this Scripture testifies of "these three are one.")

1 John 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

(John 10:30-33 testifies of Jesus Christ and who He was. Jesus said "I and my Father are one." Jesus Christ walked the earth in the form of a humble and lowly man, yet HE WAS THE LORD OF HOSTS, VERY GOD.)

John 10:30  I and my Father are one.
John 10:31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
John 10:32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
John 10:33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

(Who is the child and son being talked about in Isaiah 9:6? The last portion of the Scripture gives some of the names He will be called, and those names include "The Mighty God" and "The Everlasting Father". He is THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST, VERY GOD.)

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(Matthew 1:23 speaks of another name for Jesus Christ, "Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.")

Matthew 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

(1 Timothy 3:16 speaks of a "mystery of godliness", yet the Scripture goes on to explain the mystery. "God was manifest in the flesh", Jesus Christ in the form of a man. Jesus Christ was indeed "justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.")

1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Titus 2:13 testifies of "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." There is only ONE GREAT GOD, but He is also our "SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST". There is no error here": THE TWO ARE ONE.)

Titus 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

(Please see 2 Peter 1:1 and 1 John 5:20 that also speak of TWO OF THE TRIUNE GODHEAD. Pay particular attention to 1 John 5:20 that explains part of the mystery of Jesus Christ. The first portion of the Scripture speaks of "The Son of God" and "His Son Jesus Christ". He came "that we may know Him that is true". "We are in Him that is true" and "This is the true God, and eternal life".)

2 Peter 1:1  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 John 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

I don't know how many parts this will turn out to be, but I plan to submit overwhelming proof of THE TRIUNE GODHEAD, THE HOLY TRINITY. This topic is too important and precious to stop until all know beyond any doubt that JESUS CHRIST IS GOD AND WAS GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Jesus is GOD - Part Three

If one is going to prove that Almighty God is a Holy Trinity, one must also prove that the Holy Spirit is also ONE IN AND WITH THE ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. It is interesting to note that the full revelation of the Holy Spirit is not made known until after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, HIM arising from the dead, and HIM ascending back into Heaven as the LORD OF HOSTS, OUR LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR, VERY GOD. "Full revelation" is not an accurate term, as there are still many mysteries in the ETERNAL GODHEAD, but there is overwhelming proof of the ETERNAL GODHEAD in the Holy Bible and from "THE WORD", JESUS CHRIST, and through HIS HOLY SPIRIT who lives in our hearts as THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO BAPTIZED our souls and cleansed us from all unrighteousness, "A COMFORTER", a guide, and "A SEAL" which sets us apart as children of God. A walk "IN THE SPIRIT" is a walk with ALMIGHTY GOD, as the HOLY SPIRIT is also ONE OF THE GODHEAD, ONE GOD, ALMIGHTY GOD. Much more will be revealed to God's children in eternity with our Lord and Saviour in glory.

I'm going to let many of the Scriptures speak for themselves, as commentary is not necessary to see the truth revealed. You will have to study these portions of Scripture for yourself before you begin to understand that the Holy Spirit is ONE OF THE GODHEAD, ONE GOD, ALMIGHTY GOD. If you have the Holy Spirit of God in your heart, he will open your eyes to the truth of these Scriptures. If you don't have the Holy Spirit of God in your heart, you are lost, without Jesus, and the Scriptures will be nothing but foolishness to you.

John 14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

1 Corinthians 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

John 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9  Of sin, because they believe not on me;
John 16:10  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
John 16:11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
John 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
John 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Romans 8:26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Luke 12:12  For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Acts 5:32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 15:28  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Acts 16:6  Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Acts 28:25  And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

1 Corinthians 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Hebrews 2:4  God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

2 Peter 1:21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Hebrews 3:7  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Hebrews 3:8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Hebrews 3:9  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Hebrews 3:10  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Hebrews 3:11  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Ephesians 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Ephesians 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Romans 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Genesis 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Psalms 104:30  Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Matthew 12:28  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Isaiah 6:3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Romans 9:1  I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Now, we have scratched only the surface of the overwhelming proof of the Holy Trinity. Please bear with me for additional posts of an unknown number. I'll have to rest before I can do more.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Just as the foul spirit of satan can well up and take over possessed people and speak through their mouths, I also believe (and this is purely my opinion) that in a similar way,the beautiful spirit of God regularly welled up in Jesus and took him over with such power that much of what Jesus said was GOD HIMSELF speaking through his mouth,such as when he proclaimed:- "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt 23:37)
So in a sense only,Jesus WAS God at such times!
   

I like the way you explained the Trinity.
Along with Jn.1:1-2,14,18, Heb.1:8 we read that Jesus is God.
At the baptism of Christ, (Mt.3:16-17, 2Pet.1:17-18. Col.2:9
Col.1:15-19

God bless,
bluelake   :)

Well lets see now?

So whose disciple are you??

If your are not Christs, you are not a Christian, better yet, if you do not possess the Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead, ytou do not belong to Christ, according to Gods Word.  


So what do you with these inspired words of God;

  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Rom 8:11-16)


You sound like a moderate democrat, talking in curcles.

What does "I prefer to go on what the SCRIPTURES say .", MEAN?



Well, you are right He wasn't anything, but, unfortunately you are wrong, because He is God..

You have said enough to convince me already why you do not identify yourself as a Christian.

So what are you Jehovah Witness, or Seventh Day SAdventis, or a Arian, Socinian, what do you prefer to identify yourself as?



Well, this is myystery to you, but not to me, since the trinity doctrine answers the question you pose , and just because you do not believe it does not change the fact it is taught by scripture.

By the way you wouldn't be the ole charlie, who up and took the "Trinity" thread he started a couple of weeks back would you??

I will get back to you......


Petro

Trinity in the OT!

                Six months ago, my elder game me this book, "A Bird's Eye view of the Bible" and as I read the author;s beliefs oin the Trinity, I saw verses that suprised me, there are three Yahwehs but only one God.   Here they are:


16   Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17   Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 48:16-17

                     Here clearly, there are three persons, but One God.  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is God.

and Jabez, when He was praying to God, He wasnt praying to himself, they are three distinct persons of the Godhead.  If it is only one person then yes, he is talking to himself but the Trinity in the Bible is three persons.  Can God talk to God?   Yes because remember, three persons.
           
agur

Re:Is Jesus God?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2004, 10:09:56 AM »


mick,

What bible version are you using??

It is a paraphrased edition and not reliable.

I would get myself a reliable Bible Version, before I embarked on a mission to disprove the central doctrine of the Christian faith.

This version you use, will only confuse you further, since by its use, you will not be able to establish what is or isn't true of what is written.

you said;

Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:8)    

My Bible does not give these words at Jhn 14:8

"Why do you call me good? Only God is good" (Luke 18:18)  

Again, my bible does not have these words at Lk 18:18

Only God knows when Judgment Day will be,I don't know myself" (Matt 24:36)

This is very poor translation of the actual verse, let me give the Authorized Inspired Version of;

Mat 24
36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The passage of scripture you have chosen at Mat 24, is a difficult one, and the meaning of this verse, could, and could not be speaking of Judgement Day depending what you think is in view herein, nevertheless, the words Judgement Day do not appear at this verse, however, the verse does refer to a day of fulfillment of certain things..



In pointing out the verses above, you fail to read them in the context of how they are written.

At John 10:30, Jesus replies to the Jews who asked Him at verse 24;

24  Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.


Jesus's answer follows;

25  .....................  I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26  But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30  I and my Father are one. KJV

The Jews who understood the Law, then responded to Jesus's answer in the following way;

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32  Jesus answered them,  Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

So, you can see that Jesus, according to the Jews herein claimed to be God, and they took up stones to stone Him

I guess, if you were a Jew who lived in those days, you would have taken up a stone or two yourself, to stone Him and, since you deny He is God manifested in the flesh, you count yourself as one who does not believe Jesus.

It makes sense to me, why you do not consider yourself Christian.

But this is alright, it doesn't mean you can't become a Christian, it simply means you have not trusted Him in the words which He has spoken on behalf of our Father in Heaven however, unless you trust His words, you will never know the truth of this matter.

Because it is essential to believe Him, whom the Father has sent to be the judge of all living and the dead;

Those that do not believe Jesus, have not believed the Father, and if they die in unbelief, the only thing left for them is that Judgment Day, when the words He spoke will judge each person who has not believed Him.

Notice;

Jhn 12
47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.  
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus came to save HIS people, unless you believe Him, you cannot be one of His.

Mat 1
18  Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19  Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save His people from their sins.
22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Put your faith in Jesus, mick, then you will understand and believe what you can't.

Petro

Oklahoma Howdy to Petro,

AMEN BROTHER! I enjoyed your post.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I'm not sure if anyone's already posted this as I've just stumbled onto the latter portions here, but Mick?  Why do you suppose it angered the High Priest so much that Jesus claimed divine sonship?  Was it simply because that in itself seemed blasphemous, or did the culture determine part of that anger?

It is good to garner from an understanding of Jewish culture at that time to understand more fully what Jesus was saying and what the Jews of that day fully understood Him to be saying.  For a man to be born to a family, he would be a child.  We, being born again into God's family, are therefore his children.  But for a man to be a son was another bowl of fruit!  Such an honor came only when that child matured to the age of 13.  At that time he became a son - and carried the full weight of his father's name with him.  That is, he wasn't simply the father's son in that culture...he was the father.  If the son made a statement, it was as good as the father making the statement.  

Carry this into the Jews mind and understanding when Jesus said He was the Son.  He was saying that what He said was of equal importance and weight with what the Father said.  He said that He said only what the Father wanted Him to say, which meant that He and only He would have that knowledge.  Such weight gave authority that no man prior to Jesus possessed.  Scripture even says that when Jesus spoke, He spoke as "one possessing authority."

Jesus, in our culture, makes a substantial claim to deity as well.  He doesn't claim simply to be member of God's chosen people - Israel.  He doesn't claim simply to be God's child and therefore in possession of a simple relationship.  He claims to be one with God.  He claims to be the same as God.  That lays hold of ground never before crossed or held.

Jesus claims, supports, and is supported to be God very God.  Praise His Holy Name!!!

OKlahoma Howdy to Allinall,

AMEN BROTHER!

I enjoyed your post. It all boils down to some simple and beautiful truths. Jesus did pay it all for me, and I was bought with a price of HIS precious blood. When I say that I belong to Jesus, I am saying that I belong to God, I am a child of God, and Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour.

I would also be saying that I belong to a church not made with human hands, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

I would also be saying that the Holy Spirit dwells in my heart to guide and comfort me.

I would also be saying that Almighty God through HIS GRACE and LOVE offered me a GIFT!, Jesus Christ who died on the cross in my place, in payment for my sins. In short, this is the MAJESTY, POWER, AND BEAUTY OF THE HOLY TRIUNE GODHEAD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hey!  A man could preach that Brother Tom!   ;)  I'll just say, AAAMMMMEEENNN!!!

Jesus is DIRECTLY called God:

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (Matthew 1:23)

He is called God by God the Father:

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrew 1:8)

He is called God by John:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1; the Word refers to Jesus -v.14)

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)

He is called God by Thomas:
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (John 20:28)

If Thomas erred so seriously in addressing Lord Jesus as God, why was there no correction by Jesus? And why did Lord Jesus commend his faith?

Lord Jesus refers to Himself as God:
I and my Father are one. (John 10:30)

(Note the reaction of Jews:- The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:33)

(Lord Jesus said) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (Jon 10:38)

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; (John 14:9)

He is called God by the writer of Hebrews:

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, (1:3)

He is called God by Apostle Paul:

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Luke quoted Paul; Acts 20:28)

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God[/b]: (Phil. 2:6)

Who is the image of the invisible God, (Col. 1:15)

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)

Etc., etc.

The Lord Jesus claimed and exercised the Prerogatives of God. He had the rights of God, and did the works of God.

Forgives sins
Raises the dead
Controls natures
Judges motives
Receives worship
Sends the Holy Spirit
Creates
Sustains
He is the only Judge
He is to receive equal honour with the Father
The only Saviour
He grants eternal life
He answers prayer
Etc., etc.

The Lord Jesus Christ fulfills Old Testament Scriptures which apply to Jehovah God:

Creator
Jehovah is Creator - Isa.44:24
Jesus is Creator - John 1:3

First and Last
Jehovah is the First and the Last - Isa. 42.8
Jesus is the First and the Last - Rev.1:8, 17, 18.
Highest glory

Forgiver
Jehovah alone can forgive sin - Isa 43.:25
Jesus forgives sin - Mark 2:7-10

Holy One
Jehovah is the Holy One - Isa. 43:3
Jesus is the Holy One - Acts. 3:14

The One coming
Jehovah is coming with His reward - Isa. 40:10
Jesus is coming with His reward - Rev. 22:12

Shepherd
Jehovah is the Shepherd - Psa. 23:1
Jesus is the Shepherd - John 10

King
Jehovah is King - Zech. 14:9
Jesus is King - Rev. 19:16

I Am
Jehovah is the I Am - Exo. 3:14
Jesus is the I Am - John 8:58, 59

One GodJehovah is the only true God - Isa. 43:10
Jesus is the true God - 1 John 5:20

The only Saviour
Jehovah is the only Saviour - Isa. 43:11
Jesus is the only Saviour - Mat. 1:21

The Light of New Jerusalem
Jehovah is the Light of New Jerusalem - Isa. 60:19
Jesus is the Light of New Jerusalem - Rev. 21:23

The One Who cleanses sin
Jehovah is the One Who cleanses sin - Isa. 43:25
Jesus is the One Who cleanses sin - 1 John 1:7

The Rock
Jehovah is the Rock - Deut. 32:4
Jesus is the Rock - 1 Pet. 2:6-8

The Judge of the earth
Jehovah is the Judge of the earth - Gen. 18:25
Jesus is the Judge of the earth - 2 Cor. 5:10

Etc., etc.

Why then the Lord Jesus prayed?

He prayed because He was a man. Keep in mind that in the Incarnation, Jesus was 100 percent God and 100 percent man. As a man, it is good and proper that he pray.

Jesus IS God, Jesus is Jehovah - the God Who became man because of His amazing love to us. It needs grace and humility for some to believe this truth and I pray may the Lord grant them His amazing grace to believe. I praise the Lord for those who found grace to believe.

It is not easy for human brain to comprehend what Trinity is. Though it is not directly mentioned in the Bible, it is given at several places. The heathen King Nebuchadnezzar said it, in Daniel 2:47, but Christians cannot believe it. An example I have heard is this:

Take some water and heat it. It becomes steam. Cool the steam, it becomes water. Freeze the water, it becomes ice. If we warm the ice, it becomes water again. WATER, ICE and STEAM are three different things, but one.

By calling the Lord Jesus Jehovah, I am not denying the fact that the Father is Jehovah and that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are together the Eternal Jehovah God, as the scripture clearly teach. The evidence for the deity of Lord Jesus is conclusive. Those who deny it, dishonor the Father (John 5:23) and face eternal tragedy (John 8:24).

He who has an ear, let him hear (Rev. 2:7)

Oklahoma Howdy to PhilKosba,

I enjoyed your post, especially the illustration above. This illustration really caught my attention, and I was thinking immediately about THE LIVING WATER.

Thanks Brother.

Love In Christ,
Tom

H/She who is a Spiritual Christian seeking to explain the doctrine of The Trinity to a non-Christian, or to a new Christian, may want to do it like this: God is Spirit. He is without bodily form, without beginning or end, has no boundaries or limitations. Whatever He wills to do, is done. Spirit God manifested Himself in the earth in the person of Jesus Christ to witness to humankind and to pay the price for our sin/sins without giving up any of His spirituality. Although 100% God, 100% spiritual, He was here on earth 100% visible. After showing us The Way and paying the price for sin/sins, He rose up out of the tomb, appeared to His followers, and then ascended into Heaven. On the Day of Pentecost God manifested Himself to us in the person of the Holy Spirit, to dwell with us, taking up residence in those who receive Jesus Christ as Savior, Messiah, not only to the Jew, but to everyone. In Him all of us are the same. There is no Jew or Gentile, no slave or free, no race, no creed, no nationality. All are seen as one. All who follow Him are made one in Him. This is a simple method for introducing the concept of the Trinity to those who have yet to believe, or who are newly won to Christ. This highly complex, Spiritual union is beyond explanation for veterans of scripture, and they love His Truth, blessed One in Three.

Not bad at all, Don - short and sweet and to the point - just as I like a post to be.  (I have a short attention span.)  :)
It IS a hard concept to explain - particularly to someone who doesn't want to understand.  
The Holy Trinity must be the single hardest thing for a non-believer and *others to comprehend.  

(*I consider someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is God as being in the others category.)

Agreed JudgeNot.  I really liked the ice water gas analogy.  The only simple one I had heard before was an Apple.

The core, the eatible part, and the skin.  3 parts, one fruit.  I think I'll move to the gas ice water analogy, I like that one better.

Grace and Peace!

Personally, I have always liked the “mask” analogy. Each of the 3 is a “mask” of sorts that God wears.

Like I said in my intro...I am not that well versed in the Bible, but being that as it may... I was (and am) listening in Church. Although I did not read each and every single post in this thread...I feel compelled to say my piece (or peace, which ever you like). Maybe you can answer some questions for me...

How can Jesus sit at the right hand of God if he is in the throne itself?

How can Jesus be with God if He is God?

If we are intructed to "become one" when we wed...meaning that we act together..united.. towards one goal...then why is Jesus' statement about being one with God percieved differently?


I believe that Jesus and God are two different entities along with the Holy Spirit. And one more thing....If they are one in the same...then why clarify the thousand year reign of Jesus?

This is fine as long as you remember it's just a (poor) analogy.  If you start to regard it as an accurate description, it's dangerously close to the heresy of modalism.  

The same is true of the water, ice, steam one, IMO.

The trouble with explaining the trinity, is that it IS a paradox.   There simply isn't, and cannot be, an suitable equivalent to use as an illustration in this world.

Trinity, triune, Godhead, are all words that we cannot find in the Bible. These are all descriptives that men have verbally used to teach the trinity.

The Bible doesnt teach the trinity, men do.

Are you trying to say  Doctrine of the trinity is wrong, or are you saying the word is man-made?

Ebia- Sabellianism is the word I’ve always heard. Still, it is just hard to descried it. Water can’t be ice and steam at the same time like God can be all 3. It is a mystery

I am merely trying to express that the Bible doesn't teach the trinity. Men made it up. Who are we to lay God on the table and disect him and proclaim to understand?

Jesus and Jehova are separate individuals of one accord. Christ was given all power and authority over every thing except Jehova. (in Rev.) Why was that reservation made?

There is no Trinity. There is no mysterious paradox. None of those words or teachings appear in the scriptures. God is not the father of confusion, Satan is.

Oooooo - Danny Boy - you are steppin on a LOT of toes with that one.
The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost is what the New Testament is all about.  Basic Christianity, dude, basic Christianity.

You DO KNOW this is a Christian forum, don't you????  ???

You mean "basic trinitarianism" don't you? :)

I really don't mean any disrepect but when Christ cleared the money changers out of the Temple, do you think he was worried about stepping on toes?  I don't think so.  ;D

My intention isn't to step on toes. My intention is to point to the truth and let those who can see it find it.  ;)

I always thought it was funny that trinitarians use John 1:1 to prove the trinity while the rest of us use the exact same verses to disprove it. :D

Peace. I didn't come to wage war, I came to debate the topic that is on the table at the moment. Maybe you guys should get some steel toed boots so that we can really dig into this one and maybe look at what the Bible has to say about it, besides John 1:1 of course.

 :-X

Oklahoma Howdy to KittiK and DannyB,

The question of the Holy Trinity is a precious topic, one that can't be left untended. What I am about to say is said in Christian love and is not intended to insult anyone. With that in mind, here goes:

To say that Jesus Christ is not God is blasphemy. I realize that some people do this in complete ignorance and have no idea what they are doing or saying. I don't believe for a minute that you are trying to blaspheme the name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. I believe that what you said was said in total ignorance. It is time for you to learn the truth and never again let any person, saved or unsaved think that you are blaspheming the Holy Name of Jesus Christ. By the way, your questions have already been asked and answered in this thread.

Please, remember this is said in Christian love.

Start reading from the first of this thread, and you will see the unquestioned and undeniable TRUTH OF THE HOLY TRINITY. If you diligently study those precious portions of Scripture that PROVE the HOLY TRINITY without ANY DOUBT OF ANY TYPE, many here will help you. If you are a professing Christian, it is time for you to find out who your Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ is. With further diligent study, you will discover why God took the form of a man, walked the earth in the form of a man, and was crucified on the cross in our stead.

Jesus Christ is and always was Almighty God, the Lord of Hosts, the King of Kings, and the Creator of the Universe. In fact, Jesus Christ was Almighty God for eternity past and is Almighty God for eternity future.

The Holy Spirit is and always was Almighty God for eternity past and is Almighty God for eternity future.

Jesus Christ is the only way, the truth, and the life. If you have accepted him as your personal Lord and Saviour and are born again, you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in your heart.

If you have placed your faith in some Jesus who is not Almighty God, you are lost and are not saved.

This is not something you should lightly brush aside. It is time to find out who Jesus Christ is.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Same thing, but modalism is easier to spell  ;)

 Exactly.

Heb 1:6-8

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
KJV

John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
KJV

   ;D


    "See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.  

For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily..."

(Col. 2:8,9...)


      ???

Jesus is quoted in the Bible saying that he did not come to do His own will, He was sent (never once implied that He was the sender as well) and that His teachings were not His. (John 6:38, John 7:16, John 8:42) The family relationship is used in describing His relationship with God…Father and Son. Jesus being the son implies a submissive position.  The Father having authority over a son would disprove the Trinitarian belief that They are indeed one deity. If this were the case it seems plausible to use a brother to describe the relationship. Quite frankly,  I don't see how any circumstantial evidence you show can refute this basic concept.

Passages inside of John 14-17:
Statements with a submission-motif are 17 :

1. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. (?)
2. The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
3. And whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (?)
4. the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
5. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
6. but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, even so I do
7. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments, and abide in His love
8. all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
9. But now I am going to Him who sent Me
10. for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 28 “I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father.”
11. even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life.
12. I manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world; Thine they were, and Thou gavest them to Me,
13. Now they have come to know that everything Thou hast given Me is from Thee; 8 for the words which Thou gavest Me I have given to them; and they received them, and truly understood that I came forth from Thee, and they believed that Thou didst send Me
14. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, the name which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, even as We are. (?)
15. “As Thou didst send Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. (???)
16. that the world may know that Thou didst send Me,
17. Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world (?)

Heb 1:6-8

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
KJV


Mick ,or who ever, if you do not believe Jesus is God you are a heathen.

Considering that the Trinity did not even exist until three centuries after the death of Jesus.....how can you say that? Constinople forced the teachings of this. Council Nicea 321. If it was the truth, Jesus would have been VERY specific about it...just like He was about EVERYTHING ELSE that was important about worship.

I believe that Jesus is my savior, my Lord, my Intercessor. God is my Father, the Almighty.

Such belief in a God that has to change forms....that's idolatry. That's the first commandment being ripped from it's very base.

Seems you think all who believe Jesus Christ is God are idolators.

 This is the Word of God is God an idolator? He calls his Son God...

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

John 1:1-14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV


2 John 9-11

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
KJV

Gen 18:1-3
18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
KJV

I have already addressed that. If you would be so kind as to review this thread and read my posts you will find your answer there.

Your address? No thanks, the answers are in the scriptures.

John 1:1-14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV


2 John 9-11

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.KJV


The only nice or kind thing to say or do is tell you once more Jesus is God.  When and if He opens your ears is up to Him. I will not respond to you again.

Wanted to share a few things conerning this.

Why do you suppose that John 1:1 refers to Jesus as the word?  Could it be that the WORD, [Jesus] is the personification of what the Father wanted to say to men?

I read a little funny little story in a book I have about a man who had a strange facination with some ants.  He would observe the ants on a daily bases watching them go to and froe, and became quite attached to them.  One day he saw a bulldozer clearing the way for new street, and was coming right towards his cherished friends.  He tried frantically to think of way to save the ants.  He tried to scoop them up in his hands, but they only bit him in anger.   In his mind, he thought, the only way he could warn them of impending danger, was to become an ant himself so that they could understand him on their level.  For this to have worked however, he would of had to retain his human nature in order to clearly assess the problem at hand, and yet be an ant to make it known to the ants.

The word had to take on flesh so that we could understand God on our level, and yet retain his God status in order to clearly assess Holyness and righteousness.  It was man that got man into trouble to begin with..(Adam) so God had to become man in order to undo the trouble we got ourselves into (Romans 5:17-19).

In order to qualify as a Human to undo sins damage, Jesus did not use his divine power while he was on earth.

Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus depended on the Father throughout his earthly life, who worked through him by the holy spirit who indwelt him.  This is exactly the way God intends for man to live.  Had Jesus used his own supernatural powers, he would have lost his humanity and could not have redeemed men.  All his work was done by faith in his father through the working of the holy spirit.

In order for man to be freed from sin, righteous blood had to be shed.  Since God cannot die, he had to take on human form, and yet retain his righteousness (Godly blood) in order to redeem man to himself.  He was the God Man, or the Word clothed in flesh.

If he was not God, then his shed blood could not satisfy Gods righteousness and judgment for sins punishment for all mankind.  If he was not man, (born into the world under the same conditions we are), then he could not redeem us [man]to himself.  He had to be both in order to mediate between fallen men, and a Holy God.  This was the only way to bridge the gap man created between himself and God.

Jesus spoke of himself as both God and man.

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.

One essence, or total equlity with God.  Note that the Jews took up stones at this point.

Speaking of his human nature as referenced in the Gospels...

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus is without a doubt, the most unique person in the universe.   In his humanity he subjected himself to the father as we are to do, but in his deity he was equal with the Father in order to satisfy Gods holiness and righteousness through his shed blood for us.  He had to be both, or it just doesnt work.

Jesus, our God who took on flesh to save us from sin.  Praise his holy name!

Grace and Peace!

Good posts Tim & Reba.  

Mr. Danny Boy is pushing the envelope of "welcome" here at c-unite.

Also - I note that the website he is pushing never mentions Jesus or God - it appears to me to be just a money making scheme he and his wife are pushing - and they are making their money from folks who have none to begin with.

I believe our best recourse is to ignore his posts.

God Bless,
JN

  2nd Timothy

   Awesome post!!!!!!!! I liked that so much I'll say it again, AWESOME POST!!!!!
     
                                                               

      Don't you understand? One lie can destroy the Gospel!

     Satan loves it when people read the bible but fall victim of one lie that deceives them from Salvation. If Jesus is not God then we can not be Saved by Him. If Jesus is God and we deny it, we are not Saved by Him.

     The Jehovah's Witnesses believe in a different Jesus than Christians, and their jesus does not save them.

     People throw the name Jesus around, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Cults and "isms" but its not the name alone that saves.

     There are facts that must accompany ones beliefs about Jesus. If your facts about him are wrong, you believe in a "made up", alternative Jesus.

    Some facts about Jesus:
 
    Was Jesus born from a virgin? If you don't believe in the virgin birth you don't believe in the "true" Jesus of the bible.

    Did he perform real miracles? If not you have a different Jesus.

    Was Jesus raised BODILY from the grave and death? if you say spiritually but not bodily, different Jesus.

    Was Jesus God? the Jesus of the Bible always was God, and continues to be God. Jesus was never not God. Nothing created was created without him. God spoke the world into existance by doing what? Speaking, what did God Speak? Words. Who does the Bible say is the Word? Jesus! Therefore put it all together, Who "SPOKE" the world into existance? JESUS! Jesus is and was the "WORD" it was the WORD (Jesus) that spoke the "word" and created everything. That is what John 1 is saying. Jesus spoke the world into existance, His voice, the Word, without who nothing that exists would exist, he was not "CREATED" because He (Jesus) IS CREATOR!!!!!

  John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my GOD."

   There it is, Bill O'reilly of the "O'reilly Factor" has the "no spin zone", and I have my own no spin zone. Read the verse above and no spinning it, just read it. What does it clearly say?

   Thomas testified for us that after he saw the resurrected Jesus Christ he believed in him and declared Jesus his LORD and his GOD! Thats what the Bible clearly says! People that don't like what it says use "spin" by saying that some manuscript in some language has another meaning and ...yada, yada ,yada... But the bottom line is, it says MY LORD AND MY GOD! The Bible is God's Word, and for almost 2,000 years people that read the Bible believed what it said.

    Now some pinheads( you said whats next, name calling, well O'reilly calls people who spin pinheads) want to re-examined what it says to find an alternative meaning they like better. Well God knew that most people would just read the Bible, as it is! I shouldn't have to study Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and latin and analize every word in each language. You want me to believe that 99.999999 % of people who read the Bible in the last 2,000 years are wrong, and God knew we would read it as written and understand it wrong, but the .0000001 % of people who study ancient manuscripts in foreign languages not available to common every day people throughout history would be the only people who saw the truth? You want me to believe that only a minute fraction of a percent were meant to see the truth and the 99.99999% of the rest of the world would be deceived by the clear "as it is written" text, and you want me to believe God has allowed the rest of us to be deceived, would be saying God lied to us.

    There you have it in truth. Either Jesus is God, or God lied to us by allowing us to read the text as written. If Jesus is not God, the Bible lied to me because it clearly says "my LORD AND MY GOD!"

    When you have to "SPIN" the clear text of the Bible as written to support your theories, its time to change your theories, not the written text of the Bible which is the Word of God!

    You want to know why we defend our faith? Because I'm not willing to sit back and watch someone pervert and "SPIN" the clear text and meaning of the Word of God, which has Salvation hanging in the balance, and allow someone to "STEAL" the Salvation of others to promote their "pet" theory, which requires the Bible as it is written, to be ignored, because you think your a language expert. I don't trust you. Why should I give up the written Word of God called the Bible, and the clear, easy to understand wording it used to teach Jesus was and is God for your babble about a language I know nothing about? What if your a liar? or just a poor scholar? Why would I choose to put my faith in your research when God has given us His written Word, which the Bible itself tells us to test everything against the Word.

     I'm protective of my beliefs and of the Holy Bible as our source of truth. You are just a sinful person who I can not trust and the Bible told me to test everything against the Bible to see if something is true or not. You say the Bible is wrong, but the Bible says anyone who teaches against the Book is wrong!

    You can't deceive me but I'm writing this on behalf of others who are not as positive of the truth of the Bible. If Jesus is not God then God lied to me in the Bible which is my source of truth which God told me to use as a test. God does not lie and would not allow 2,000 years to go by with lies about his son Jesus being God, before some pinhead studing some manuscript, or someone elses interpretation of a manuscript which is probably the case would come along and show us all the "real" truth of what the Bible "meant" to say.

     You call God's word a lie! theres the "no spin" truth of what you teach. Gods word as written is wrong according to you. We should all come to you to find out what God "really" said about his Son Jesus, because God's Word, the Bible is wrong.

    If the Bible as it is written is wrong, God can not judge me by it! God would be hypocritical to judge us by a book containing lies about Jesus being God if He was not God.

    God didn't make a mistake, and God WILL judge by the truth of the Bible and our believing His Word in Truth.
 
    Your in great danger of the lake of fire for you call God's Word a lie, just as Satan did in the Garden. You say you have the truth, just as Satan did in the garden. Satan will be cast into the lake of fire for deceiving man, and so will you if you continue to "spin" God's Word, call God's word a lie and deceive others just as Satan did.

    I'm protective of my brothers and sisters in Christ and you are a false teacher that must spin the truth into a lie to fit your flawed theology.

   I hope those of you who read this will be able to see how God's word must be interpreted falsely to deny Christ is God.
Satan never quoted the Word of God in truth but always lied or left out part of verses he quoted to call God a liar and to deceive those who listened.

    Satans methods: challenge God's word, "did God really say..."
 God's holding out on you..."God knew you'd be like him if you ate from the tree"...God does want you to know the truth...

     Satan doesn't change his tactics and I'm afraid DannyB is being used by Satan, using the same old tactics as in the garden of Eden. The Bibles wrong, come to me for the truth...

    Sorry DannyB but your in the "NO SPIN THE BIBLE ZONE!"
nothing personal but Souls are more important than your feelings. I hope you change your theology and stop deceiving others.
    Final words... When your theology requires you to ignore the Bible as written and forces you to alter the text and meaning STOP! Alter your theology and leave the Bible alone!

  Bill O'reilly has a book out called "WHO'S LOOKING OUT FOR YOU?"          Well Paul2 is looking out for you! Thats who!

                                                            Paul2

Amen Brother 2nd Timothy!

Amen Brother JudgeNot!

Amen Sister Reba!

Amen Brother Paul2!

This topic really is too precious to be left untended. I pray that everyone will read and study the beautiful portions of Scripture that clearly prove the TRUTH.

We worship and praise only ONE GOD, but HE is known by many names. I give thanks every day that Jesus humbled HIMSELF and took the form of a man to die in my place on the cross. I give thanks every day that the Holy Spirit dwells in my heart. Almighty God is a jealous God and deals harshly with those who worship or kneel before other Gods. However, there will be no harshness dealt to HIS children who praise, worship, and pray to Almighty God and Jesus Christ, nor will there be any harshness for walking IN AND WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT - FOR THEY ARE ALL ONE - ALMIGHTY GOD!

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isa 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
KJV


Some things are not negotiable.... Great post guys  :)

If one wanted to know, one could study the history of the doctrine of the Trinity. One would find that this teaching was adopted from other pagan religions about 300 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. One would tend to think that such an important issue would have been adressed directly by Christ Himself. You can twist the translation of the scriptures if you want to but if you want to find out then the answers have been provided.

Could someone please tell me how to unsubscribe from this thread so that I will not get anymore notifications of replies to this topic? I'm trying to kick the dust off my heels but I'm having trouble.

Hmm, if you were seaching scripture instead of historical pagan religions you might be able to see the truth.

Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Shake all the dust you want.  We have the ultimate dust buster!  The WORD!

I accept scripture as God breathed word.  While I do accept history, I do not put it above scripture as truth.  The pulrality of God can be seen in the very first book and chapter in the Bible.

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image[....]

Jesus and the Father.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name[....]

And

Joh 15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Plurality!  3 persons, one God.  Read all the pagan history you want, I'm sticking with Jesus own words, because he is the word.

Grace and Peace!

On the line...here we go. ;D
I totally agree that Jesus was there in the begining.
I totally agree that Jesus took man form.
I totally agree He (Jesus) is to be worshiped.
I totally agree that Jesus is the Son of the Almighty God.
I totally agree that they functioned as one (like a family unit)

I totally disagree that God and Jesus was equal.
I totally disagree that they were (are) the same person, entity or deity.

Then you are telling me that Jesus lied when he said...

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.

???  These are his own words! Claiming euality with the Father.

And that where God says....

Exo 20:3  Thou shalt have no other gods before

And yet Jesus says...

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

One in essence, existing in 3 different persons, Father, Son, and Holy spirit!

Mar 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one  Lord:

Here he says One!  These are not controdictions in scripture.  

Jesus spoke of himself as both God and man.  Without him being both, its impossible for him to be a saviour to man.   Its not an easy concept for the mind to handle.  But it is scriptural.  He is one God, in three persons.  And Jesus was both Man and God.

Grace and Peace!

1Th 4:8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit

Without the spirit, we cannot know christ,

1Co 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

and without christ we cannot know the father...

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And yet....

Mar 12:29  [..........] The Lord our God is one  Lord:

It might be difficult to understand, but we must accept his word as truth.  We can only accept this by faith!

Grace and Peace!

OK, lets consider the following passages.

Mic 5:2  But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Who is everlasting?  Jesus had not been born here...but it says "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting".  Only Deity can make this claim.

Joh 5:23  That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Co-equal....not one above the other!  We honor the father as God do we not?  They are equal in every sense of the word!

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Who was the word that took on flesh and dwelt amongst us for a while?  Only Jesus...who WAS GOD!

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Note this verse carefully.  In him dwelleth the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily.  He and his father are one...working by the POWER of the holy spirit.  3 yet 1!


Phi 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

He was in the form of God!  And thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD!  But MADE HIMSELF of no reputaion, and took the form of a servant.  Only God can do these things.  

This is scripture my friend.  Jesus was God, and still is.  WE who accept him are his family.

Grace and Peace!

Jesus is deity. I agree.

John 5:23.....says "even as"...not equal to

In the text of the sonship..I offer this explanation....

Sonship might imply many things in that culture: subordination, heirship, resemblance to the father, shared values, unique 'insider' relationship with the father. In any given context, sonship might refer to only one of these elements (e.g. heirship) without any connotation of another element (e.g. resemblance). For example, in the Parable of the Wicked Tenants, the son of the king is only noted for his heirship, not his subordinate authority(!), nor his resemblance, nor his shared values.

 

On the other hand, Jesus refers often to His opponents' hatred for both Himself and His Father--the resemblance is emphasized--and His own references to His subordination are legion (as you have noted).

 

But with Jesus, we note quite a high number of references to (a) likeness/resemblance [e.g., the 'see Me, see the Father' passages];  (b) "quasi-essential" unity [e.g., the reciprocal in-dwelling passages]; and (c) intimate relationship:

 

"Third, as Son of God Jesus enjoys intimate fellowship with the Father. John describes this intimacy in spatial terms: “in the bosom of the Father” (Jn 1:18). Specifically, this relationship involves (1) “knowing” the Father and his will (Jn 4:22–23; 6:45–47; 8:55; 15:15); (2) sharing in all that the Father has (Jn 16:15); and (3) enjoying special access and influence with the Father (Jn 14:13–16). [NT:DictJG, s.v. "son of God"]

--From the Christian Thinktank--

KittiK

Isa 41:4  Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the first and the last; I am He.


Rev 22:12  And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.
Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last.


One simply cannot separate the two here KittyK.


Rev 22:14  Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15  But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie.
Rev 22:16  I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star.

Jesus (the one speaking here), the first and the last, Alpha and Omega, beginning and ending......Jehovah God!

EDIT TO ADD...

Isa 45:5  I am Jehovah, and there is none else, no God besides Me; I clothed you, though you have not known Me;
Isa 45:6  that they may know from the rising of the sun, and to the sunset, that there is none besides Me. I am Jehovah, and there is none else;

Deu 6:4  Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.


Again.  ONE GOD 3 persons....the trinity!

Grace and Peace!

God had to take on the form of man in order to be our saviour.   Christ surrendered only the prerecognatives of deity but nothing of his divine essense either in degree or kind.  He had to be man in order to show us the things of God.  But he had to retain his deity in order to please Gods righteousness and justice on the cross.

Many times in the gospels, Jesus refered to the father in his humanity (teaching us how live).  And other times he claimed equality with the father...I and My father are the same in one for example.  Trust me, I know its not easy to grasp, I'm not sure I grasp it fully myself.   But When Jesus himself makes the claim....

Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last.

And yet before Jesus was even born we see Jehovah making the exact same claim in the OT....

Isa 41:4  Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the first and the last; I am He.

I accept Jesus claim in John when he says, I and my father are one!   This also explains John 1:1 to me.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

To paraphrase....He says in the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus WAS GOD.  I know its a mind blower for sure.   We probably will not fully understand it until we are face to face with God.   All I can tell you is, there are three persons spoken about in scripture as being deity, and yet scripture also tells us they are One!

Deu 6:4  Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

Col 2:9  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

I will pray for you that the holy spirit will reveal these things to you as you dwell on these verses and seek his wisdom.   If you trust him, and ask him, he will show you HIS truth.

Grace and Peace!

    Well its time for another "No Spin the Bible Zone" post.

    I don't know about the rest of you but I do know about ME!

    I wasn't taught by men of any denomination, or by men at all. I went searching for my creator, without any preconceived notion of where I would find my creator. I went in search of absolute truth! I never asked anyones opinion, because there was nobody I trusted that seemed to have the truth. I didn't go to church, or study Church history.

    I was aware that there were many different so called "Christian" denominations as well as those who claim belief in Jesus but deny being Christian. Theres the Catholics, the Protestants (Adventists, Baptists, Congragationalists, Episcopalians (spelling?) Methodists, Nondenominationalists, Presbeterians (spelling?), Southern Baptists, and many more, then theres the fringe groups, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, The Twelve Tribes, ect.ect.ect...All these groups use the name "Jesus" but it seemed to me something must be seriously wrong for there to be so many groups divided from each other but all claiming to believe in "Jesus" and all claiming to be the true "Church" or true group of believers implying that everyone else has gotten it wrong.

     So far I've just dealt with groups "claiming" a relationship to Jesus. I knew of many other religons, Buddists, Hindus, Muslims, and many others, but none of them seemed to have the "TRUTH."

     So when I first went in search of my Creator, I decided to start "close to home" with Christianity as a whole. Once I'd ruled out Christianity, I had planned on learning about Buddism or Hinduism or something else... I never got that far into my search to have a methodical plan of search.

     I decided to myself that instead of going to each denomination to find what they are supposed to represent, and what their theories are, I'd take the "smart" "simple" approach by studing the Book that all these different groups use called "The Bible". I figured that by studing the "Text Book" of all these different groups, I could eliminate the need to study each group independantly. All I had to do was to rule out the Bible as the "TRUTH", and I could rule out all the groups that used the Bible as the basis for their religon. Seemed very simple and smart, because I thought it was a smart short cut to rule out the Bible and every group using it, so I could continue on my search without feeling I'd missed something. In simple terms "If I can prove the Bible is flawed, and false, and not the truth, all it would take would be "ONE LIE" and I could dismiss the entire Book." If the Book lied once than I can't trust anything in it, how could I? How would a person know what can be trusted and what can not be trusted? If there were lies in the Bible God could not judge me by the Book, it would not be Just to do so.(My Creator had to be "just" in my mind at the time.)

      This was going to be easy, find one "LIE" in the Bible and I could rule out Christianity altogether, and if one of those denominations was right, it wouldn't matter because if the Bible text lied, God could not send me to hell if it existed because I was going to argue that I was denied the truth, once I found a lie why should I be expected to believe anything else the Bible said. My father used to say "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!" and that was my logic and planned "failsafe" defense, just in case.

   How clever and smart I thought I was when I came up with my "fool proof" approach. This was going to be too easy, I was going to be able to write off every Bible based religon, without even having to study them, and if by some chance, one of them was right, it wouldn't matter because surely my defense (fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me) would make my creator understand that judging me for not believing in the Bible at all after I found 1 lie was not fair or just.

    I thought "how stupid of people not thinking of this approach, its a win-win senerio. When I find 1 Lie in the Bible I can rule out Christianity, and all the others who use the Bible, and if by some remote chance somebody "is" right, I'll just use my "fool proof defense" to get out of dismissing it, without having to study each group. I'm not just "smart", I'm a "Genius!" I had found away around judgment and was going to "outsmart" God (just in case He was real after all.)

    Only a Genius like me was smart enough to think of this. (oh how smart I thought I was.)

    This is where I'll end part one of my post, people hate long posts but a coulpe long ones beats 34 small ones when telling a story like this so bear with me. This was the back ground info you needed before I get to the point of the whole story here. As you have already noticed, I had a "Fool Proof" plan, but something must have happened for here I am at Christiansunite sharing my story with you. I never made it to Budda, Islam, ...My ingenius "fool proof" plan had one unforeseen flaw... there was one possiblity I had over looked...    to be continued... please bear with me (only B.E.P. responded to my last post but you may find this interesting, or you may be bored, I'll settle for either one)

          Paul2 - The Genius?    ;)   :-\   ???

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

Brother, I must respond again. I don't care how long the posts are. I love to hear real life testimonies of how people come to Christ. It is a joy to listen to someone brave enough and honest enough to talk about their doubts and human condition before accepting Christ. The real beauty and joy of each testimony is how Christ accepts us, warts and all, when we yield and ask HIM to come into our hearts as The Lord of our lives, our Precious Saviour.

We all have huge and ugly warts, but HE still loves us and will accept us. Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!

Love In Christ,
Tom

                Part 2 continued from last post.

     Well I left off telling everybody "how smart I was, a genius!" I went and bought a Bible and went straight to the Book of Revelation. Being as smart as I once was I figured I'd see how the Bible ended and work to find "my lie" so I could get on with my search.

    Revelation sure was a mysterious Book, loaded with symbols and one symbol caught my eye and made me curious, a seven headed dragon with ten horns. Was this Satan? Was this the Antichrist? (I had knowledge of Antichrist from the movie the "Omen" in which Damien Thorn had three 6's on his head under his hair). As I read revelation I read "those who are wise will calculate the number of the beast for it is a mans number and his number is 666.) This was "cool" stuff, I always liked supernatural horror movies like the omen and hey, they got the idea from the Bible right? Thats the way I saw it then mind you.

     OK, forget looking for the lie, now I'm interested in seeing if a "genius" like myself was "wise" enough to calculate the number of the beast. I read Revelation over and over and guess what? Something must be wrong because I couldn't understand the Book, it was interesting, but I couldn't really understand it. Why couldn't I understand this, what did it mean and who was "wise" that could understand this? My father used to say " a smart man may know the answer, but a "wise" will find the answer. ALLRIGHTY THEN! A wise man will find the answer, that must mean to be wise, I must search for the answer. Then I got an idea, I'll talk to my creator and ask for help. So I talked to my Creator and said something to the effect of "show me the truth. Show me the "truth" of the Bible, meaning show me whether or not the book is the truth."

     I was trying to trick God again. I don't know if I was fully aware of it but thats what I can see now I was doing. I was looking for another easy win- win scenario. If by some small chance the Book was really the Word of God and the truth, God now must prove it to me by giving me the wisdom to solve the riddle of the number of the beast. I thought God was obligated to make me wise enough to solve this riddle of 666 if he was in fact God. How could God deny someone seeking wisdom to solve the mystery of 666 in the Bible if he was really God. Surely God wouldn't hold out on this "wisdom" from a "genius" like me who even "covered the base" of actually talking to God ("if he was real and could really listen, was what I was thinking") surely he has no choice but to respond. So I read Revelation again and again and this time....
nothing...no wisdom, no understanding, Hey! WHATS GOING ON! I ASKED FOR WISDOM? IF YOU DON'T GIVE ME THE WISDOM TO SOLVE THE RIDDLE OF 666 I'M GOING TO GIVE UP ON THIS BOOK!......(surely if God is real that should have worked, surely if he's God he's reasonable. I spent 30 bucks on this bible and even took the time to read the 21 pages of Revelation, what more could he want, I should be all set now!

    ALLRIGHTY THEN, I'm gonna read the Book of Revelation again, really carefully and this time.........nothing? NOTHING? HEY! DIDN'T YOU HEAR ME? I SAID IF YOU DON'T GIVE ME THE WISDOM I'M GONNA PUT THIS BOOK DOWN! (then somewhere in my head my voice said, "yah, go head, put the book down but you'll never find your answer, you'll never understand it, your not wise enough.".........why?....why aren't I wise enough? Why would somebody write all about this dragon/beast thing and the 666 number of the beast and say that the wise would understand if it couldn't be solved? Who would do such a thing? there must be a way of learning what this was supposed to mean because it was written for somebody... somebody wise! There must be some kind of mistake....How could I not be one of the "wise".

      I didn't know it at the time or at least it didn't really sink in at that point, but I was becoming obsessed with being denied this wisdom to solve the 666 mystery. What was going on here? who's responcible for this? Who gave me this riddle and said the "wise" will understand, but refuses to give me the wisdom to solve the riddle?........HEY!!!! WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME? ...WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO?... I READ THIS MYSTERY IN REVELATION AND I WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS AND THE BOOK SAYS THOSE WITH WISDOM WILL UNDERSTAND, AND I'M TRYING TO BE WISE AND NOTHING!!!...I want to figure this out (thinking deep down: so I can move on and get beyond this mystery once I solve it) ...
............HEY!!!...WHATS IT GONNA TAKE?  WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME!!!...WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO READ THIS WHOLE BOOK??...what did I just say?...(thinking to myself: "What am I supposed to do? Read this whole book"..."read this whole book?"... "Read this whole book?"...READ THIS WHOLE BOOK??..."read this whole book!"
..."Read this whole book!!"  "READ THIS WHOLE BOOK!!!"........."I'M SUPPOSED TO READ THIS WHOLE BOOK??"... "THATS IT!!! I'M SUPPOSED TO READ THIS WHOLE BOOK AREN'T I ??"... "I'M RIGHT AREN'T I ??"..."I'M SUPPOSED TO READ THIS WHOLE BOOK!!!" "SURELY IF I READ THIS WHOLE BOOK I'LL GET THE WISDOM TO UNDERSTAND THE RIDDLE!!!"... I'M GONNA READ THIS WHOLE BIBLE AND THEN YOU'LL GIVE ME THE WISDOM TO SOLVE THE RIDDLE, WON'T YOU???... OF COURSE YOU WILL FOR SURELY I WAS MEANT TO BE WISE AND UNDERSTAND!!!

      We are almost there now, I'm almost to the point of this story. This all took place 14 years ago. I'll finish the story and get to my main point in the next post. Just a tease before I end this post. You know the wisdom that I was seeking to understand the number of the Beast? Well God has an awesome sense of humor, He gave me wisdom and understanding of so many things except the wisdom I was seeking which led me to Him. I now know that I am not one of the "wise" who will be able to calculate the # of the Beast. God has shown me his awesome sense of humor many times since then and always the same dramatic effect. Don't try to "fool" God because take it from me, He has an awesome sense of humor but the jokes always on you, but He's awesome and you can't help but to see the humor and can't possibly get mad at him for it because, hey, you deserved it and it always serves His purpose, but God does have a sense of humor and I for one can truely appreceiate it.

      Hang in there, I'm gonna bring it home and make my point but it will have to be tomorrow, sorry, but I type with two fingers and its late. Stay tuned.......

                                                      Paul2 8)

She says so sweetly .... :P  Jerk :P

Preaching that Jesus Christ is not God is a false gospel.  Doesn't matter how nicely the person says it or how crude. Fancy pretty words don’t change the basic truth or lies of a doctrine.  Many times it is the pleasing side of falseness that traps us. I am thinking of Delilah, or the angel of light.

It's strange but, I have heard about 10 different versions of what the trinity is. You can't seem to decide exactly what it is, or what it means. Each church has it's own version and you each think your version is right. If it really is the BASIC Christianism that you make it out to be, there would have been direct, distinct, and non-argueable directions on it's rules. I can't get past that. There is absolutely NO verse that says "Jesus and God are one GOD" No, it says they were one. Not one GOD. For those of you that are watching this thread, trying to find an answer....please try some biblical unitarian sites and do further research there.

You didn't convince me, sorry.
Have a nice life.

      For those of you that are watching this thread, trying to find answers, BEWARE of anyone that suggests IGNORING the study of the BIBLE, and going to some other site to do your research. The "no spin" reality is they are telling you, "never mind God's written word, the Bible, the answer your looking for is not there, come and see what someone else has written, because I don't agree with what the Bible teaches, I believe the teachings of men or women over the Word of God!"

    Don't trust your soul to anyone! This is way to important! Your Salvation is at stake! You might as well just join the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses or a Satanic Cult for that matter for all who deny Jesus is God end up in the same place, the Lake of Fire, Hell, for eterity. I don't know why some people chose to ignore God's Word and follow the teachings of men which leads to Hell but I do know they all want company, your company with them!

     I'm willing to have "friendly" debates on topics that do not involve Salvation such as prophecy but when Salvation is at stake I don't pull my punches!

     Satan loves religon as long as theres "one" lie that that turns Salvation into Damnation. Denying Jesus is God destroys Salvation!

     Do you really think that when someone ignores the Word of God and trys to lead you away from it to study something else, that person is "looking out for you?" No, that person has some agenda, some purpose for not wanting you to study the truth.

     KittiK wants you people to follow her, and wants you people to get off this forum where we teach the Word of God, by using the Word of God. We show you what the bible says on the subject of Jesus being God, and KittiK is scared we might convince you. Somehow she allowed herself to be deceived, and now she wants you to follow her into deception.

    She is losing her debate right here right now and is running out of arguements because the evidence against her beliefs are overpowering her ability to defend her flawed beliefs.

    So now she starts to panic. She's thinking "I've got to get people away from here before they believe these guys".

    The "No Spin" reality is she has to get you to leave before the Word of God convinces you of the truth. She wants you to follow her away from here where people can post the Word of God and give you all the FACTS that the Bible teaches on Jesus being God. She wants you to go somewhere you'll only hear one side of the arguement, her side.

    Well heres my suggestion, people stay here, and let KittiK go and bring her teachers to come here and debate us. Then you'll be able to see both sides and see who is teaching the truth. I'll debate anyone with the Word of God because the Word of God is truth.

         Who's looking out for you? Paul2 thats who!

                                                     Paul2

Guest can lurk around undetected correct?


(http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/Lurking.gif)

“Misery loves company” is one of the more popular sayings in the English language for a good reason – it is true.  Those who reject Jesus as God are lost.  There is no greater misery than the feeling of being lost.  Misguided logic whispers in the ear of a lost person “if you just have others there with you, you won’t be lost any longer”.  Wrong – still lost, only now they are “lost in a crowd”.

As always – sincere prayers are in order that Jesus will find all of his lost sheep, and that they may be returned to (or brought newly into) the flock.

Dearest Lord Jesus - it is our prayer that those who are lost may be found.  And if we may be, in any way possible, a tool for you to use in finding the lost soles and bringing them to Your truth, we ask that You use as accordingly.  Lord we love them as brothers and sisters in Your Holy Name.
Thank You, Lord, for hearing our prayers.  AMEN!

         Part3 of my story I was telling you.

    OK listen, I had this point I was going to make right? Right, but in order to do so I wanted to tell you a "short" story of how i got to where I am. I started off trying to just tell the "short" story and then get to my "point". Well thats not working very well. Because I'm trying to make the story short I'm skipping some very important details. I've decided to change tactics and give you the "point" I started all this to make and then to go back to my story and give the details which I was leaving out to make the story short.

      The point of all this is nobody taught me what I believe. I found my beliefs in the Word of God, the Bible.
The Bible and the Holy Spirit are my teachers. I found the trinity and the FACT that Jesus was and is God from the Bible nowhere else! I don't need to study where other people found their beliefs to know where MY beliefs came from.

     Many of you know I believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Critics of this always refer to some scottish girl named Mary something as the founder of this theory. Not for me! I found the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in the Bible not from some little girl somewhere. I don't care where others say the viewpoint came from, I found it in the Bible! All my beliefs came from the Bible, not some teacher, website, or Church somewhere. I believe everything God wants me to know can be found in the Bible! I don't need to study greek or latin or Church history or anything else. God provided His truth for all of us in the Bible.

     I have studied world history to see if it supports Biblical prophecy when I was coming to faith and history Proved the Bible true to me but I never studied the origin of Biblical doctrines once I became convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Bible was 100% truth. Once I established the "FACT" that the Bible was and is in FACT the written Word of God everything else I believe has been tested by the Bible. If the Bible condradicts something, the Bible which has undeniably proved itself to be the truth to me, must be believed over anything that goes against it.

     People may think they know the reason we believe what we believe, and may think we must have been taught these things in Church or in books or by some teacher but I myself was taught my beliefs by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit which has led me to the truth.

   Why do I believe Jesus is God? because the Bible says so.

    Theres my long winded point. Don't presume to tell me where my beliefs came from, you don't know for a fact, but I know me and I'm telling you the answer. Some people may be programmed into their beliefs by someone but I was not. I went in search of truth and found the truth in the Bible.

     That was the point I took so long to make. Some of you maybe interested in hearing the rest of the story I was telling and for those of you interested, I'll finish the story with the details I left out while hurrying to make my point. I'll go back to my story in my next post.

                                                  Paul2

     

     DannyB,

     I'm not afraid to debate you but when I debate a Biblical topic, I stick to the BIBLE. I'm not a language scholar and have no way of knowing whether you are either. I don't trust you, why should I? If the Bible alone by itself backs your position I'd believe you, but you need outside material to make your case. The Bible alone isn't good enough of a source for you and your theory. You and KittiK need to search outside the Bible to make your claims because the Word of God alone isn't enough.

    We are not "ganging up on you" because we all agree with each other on everything. We are defending what the Bible teaches about Jesus and the FACT the Bible teaches Jesus is God. When a debate is a Salvation issue we are a intense group to debate.

     People who seem to you as my allies, will quickly challenge and debate me on the subject of the Rapture of the Church. Reba, who agrees with my view on Jesus being God will be the first to tell you that I'm wrong about the Rapture. Whats the difference? The Rapture is a debatable topic that does not have Salvation in the balance of the belief. We argue with each other, sometimes heatedly, but we are still brothers and sisters in Christ and we agree on the essentials of Salvation.

     We debate each other constantly over theories and view points and an outsider may get the impression we don't like each other. When it comes to Salvation issues however, people I often debate will back me up if I speak the truth and the people I often consider to be wrong on some topic, I will freely admit are correct on others.

     If I had a dollar for every time Reba disagrees with me I'd be a rich man, but today on this issue of Jesus being God we agree with each other. So don't go thinking this is some club of like minded people, we are not. Each of us has our own opinions and sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't.

     I don't dislike people who don't agree with me, I try to convince them and if that doesn't work I pray for them and if that doesn't work I agree to disagree with them.

     Just because I disagree with someone on a certain subject doesn't mean I don't think they have something valueable to teach. I've read some AWESOME posts by people who disagree with me on many things.

    I'm protective of the people who visit here. I know many people stop by and read these posts but never post themselves. I keep in mind those visiting here with every post I write.

     I'm a WARRIOR when it comes to Salvation issues. I don't want Satan taking anyone to the Lake of Fire with him. Your not my enemy, your doctrine is my enemy if it effects Salvation. Its never personal, its doctrinal. I don't think people intentionally mislead others astray. I don't think they do it on purpose, if I did believe they did on purpose, they would become my personal enemy.

     You can run away if you want but many see that as a sign of weakness. I've answered many posts I didn't feel like answering because I know those who read them will think I CAN'T answer instead of realizing I just wasn't in the mood at the time. This isn't a "game" to me, its a war fought for the souls of men and women. I debate about Nascar for fun, with something like that its just opinions and doesn't really matter, but with Salvation the stakes are High.

     Think about this: We can change the eternal destiny of those who read our words here. Thats an incredible responcibility, and surely must have consequences for those who decide to engage. The Bible says not many of you should be teachers because teachers will be judged more severely.

     I use humor alot in my writings to make my posts entertaining, but I'm very careful not to mislead. I don't want to be responcible for misleading someone and doing more harm than good.

    If you want to run away thats ok but I will take that as a victory. You couldn't win by just using the Bible, and I won't allow myself to be mislead away from it.

   You can "SPIN" all you want but the people reading these posts can see it and I'm making sure of that. Not many people have ever looked out for me but thats never stopped me from looking out for them, which is what I'm doing.

    Once again, Who's looking out for you? Paul2 thats who!

                                                       Paul2

     Part4 of my story.

    Ok. I left off in 1990 when I decided to read the Bible. Well theres one more thing you need to know right now. In 1990 Saddam's Iraqi army rolled over the border into Kuwait, remember? Of course you do. Well I was watching C.N.N. (before Fox news channel was born) and CNN had a war theme song after every commercial (BOOM, ba,ba,ba, BOOM, ba,ba,ba, BOOM, ba,ba,ba, BOOM) and then the report from the Gulf came on. Behind the News reporter was a black cloud of billowing smoke from the oil fires and in front of the fires was an army of men wearing gas masks. The reporter said " Day has turned to night in Kuwait, as the smoke from the oil fires has blocked out the suns rays blanketing Kuwait in smoke and darkness."

    Something about this scene seemed familiar. I had been reading Revelation and chapter 9 came into my mind.

Revelation 9:2  "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

     Wow, that sounds like whats going on in Kuwait I thought, so I got out my Bible and looked at Revelation chapter 9.

Revelation 9:3  "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power."

    Locust? that army of guys wearing those gas masks look like grasshoppers sort of... could this be ...hum...

   I went back to reading the Bible and about a month later the war began. We drove Saddams army out of Kuwait.

Revelation 9:10: "And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months."

      5 Months! Saddam took Kuwait in August, September was 1 month, October was 2 months, November 3 months, December 4 months, January 5 months! January was 5 months! Hey was this what John saw? It seemed to fit but there was big problem. Nothing in the first 8 chapters of Revelation had happened yet. Whats going on here... better go back to reading the whole book. I needed to understand how all this fit together.

      So I read the Old Testament, didn't understand many things but the story was interesting sometimes. I skipped the Psalms and Proverbs (poetry I thought) and then I got to the prophets. Prophecy! hey, this is cool, I don't understand it really but it seems interesting just the same. Then I came to DANIEL... Wow, this is awesome. It uses symbols like Revelation and explains alot of what these symbols mean. This was great. Then I found it, just what I'd been looking for. The seven headed dragon with ten horns, here it was. I was now getting somewhere, I was getting close now.

      I didn't understand yet but now I knew that the symbol were used in different places and expected that as I read on I'd surely find more details and then I'd be wise enough to understand.

   
     I came to the end of the Old Testament. Matthew was next, and guess what? Matthew was about Jesus. I was wondering where Jesus was all through the Old Testament and now I knew He wasn't in the Old Testament (or so I then thought.)

    Matthew was awesome, it told prophecy about the future, I was getting close now. Then I came to Mark...whats the deal with this I thought. Its the same story, a little different but not much, oh well, I'll read it. Next came Luke... what? again, this is just like the other 2, some more stories and "stuff" but it seemed the same. Then John... Whats going on? Is every book in the new testament going to repeat the same story over and over? Sure each one had something new or a little different but why tell the same story 4 times.

     Then came Acts. Finally something new and different. Acts was cool, it told me what happened after Jesus died and was raised and went to Heaven. Then I was introduced to Paul, I then realized that my name Paul had come from this man Saul of Taurus, and that everyone named Paul was really named after him. I thought, this guy must be important if people named their kids after him.

    By now Saddam was back in Iraq, the war was over and everything was back to normal. Well almost everything, not me, I was walking around with a Bible. I'd go and hang out with my friends and when ever I got bored I'd break out the Bible and start to read. This Book was interesting alright but was it the truth. If this book was the truth then my friends needed to know this stuff. It interested me either way, fact or fiction but if this book was in fact the TRUTH that would change everything.

       To be continued......
                                                           Paul2

       Part5 of my story.

      I needed to know once and for all, was the Bible the truth or just an awesome book of stories.

      Time to find out, so off to the library I went. I started looking at ancient history. I took out books and began to discover that history in fact supported the Bible. I spent months of deep study hour after hour until... I was convinced.
I was finally convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible was in fact the truth. Ok now what do I do?...I need to find someone to teach my friends, but who? My friends won't go to Church, they don't read books, who is going to teach them? They won't listen to a stranger, who can I get to teach them? Wait, I got it, I'll teach them. I'm gonna have to study this book backwards and forwards until I can teach them myself. They have seen me studing this for months but they haven't seen anything yet. I'll read it to them if they won't read it. I'll buy them Bibles if they won't buy one for themselves. I'll highlight the Bibles because they won't read the whole thing so I'll high light the most important things so they will be able to find them. They won't read the book now but once they begin to understand how awesome it is they'll read it. I spent most of my free time over the next few years studing the Bible and reading it to groups of my friends, who "put up" with me because I can make stories interesting (sometimes) (I hope this one is). Slowly but surely 1 by 1 my friends began to believe and to study along with me. We'd have Bible studies anywhere, in a V.W. bus, (many of my friends were hippie types) on the side of a river when we went camping, in a teepee a friend of mine had where everyone used to hang out. I'd preach to anyone who would listen, I'd preach to hippies at Yasgur's farm "Woodstock" reunions. If you were near me for very long you heard the Gospel.
 
       One of my friends went to India to be a missionary, another to Israel. I just didn't preach but taught them how to teach others and to defend their faith. They knew why they believed what they believed, and where in the Bible to show others they were now preaching to.

     I looked out for them and now some of them are looking out for others. Those days of "hanging out" are over for me now. Once in a while I'll visit but we all grew up and got families that take our time now. Now I have you people, and once in a while someone new comes into my reach like Scott my blacksmith who I've written about recently.

     Do I have teachers? sure I do, many from Christian radio, but did they give me my beliefs? NO!! Do I believe everything they say? No!! Some of my favorite teachers I have disagreements with but its mostly something minor, not a Salvation issue.

     So there you have me, Paul2, trying to look out for you!

                                                         Paul2

I just knew you were not going to finish the story alas YOU DID  i withdraw the title of "Jerk"  :)


Wonderfull testamony Paul thanks...

Oklahoma Howdy to DannyB & KittiK,

Both of you got all kinds of attention. It's really a pretty weak cop out to use that as an excuse. In fact, it isn't an excuse. You are faced with the truth and you have no argument for it. However, you still refuse to accept it. We'll all be praying for you.

Here, take this with you:

"And the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Hint = Jesus Christ is the Word.

We'll be happy to share the Word with you any time.

Yes, There is Love in Christ,
Tom

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

AMEN BROTHER!

That was a beautiful and moving testimony. It's seeing the power of God unfold in someone's life. Brother, thanks for sharing that with us.

I'm looking forward to posting with your blacksmith friend, Scott. I'm sure that folks keep him pretty busy since there are very few real blacksmiths around these days.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Paul2,

Great testimony Brother!   I enjoyed reading that very much.

No spin bible zone!   ;D

Grace and Peace!

NO spin ?   really ?  What is your spin on Revelation 1 verses 1-3   hehe   :D


 Good morning guys .

      WE got along for 2 whole days there! I knew it wouldn't last to long 8)  It was nice to know that it was possible on a Salvation based issue.

      And you called me a "jerk"? And then you took it back? Wow! So here I am with a "not a jerk" statis and ... Oh wait, your setting me up to be "a jerk" again aren't you?  ;)

      Thats ok, I understand, this ain't no never never land!

      This isn't the right thread to start this debate on. I'm willing to "try" again and will do so on my "Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" which is located in the "Prophecy" section. I don't have the time right this minute to do it but I'll get to it or somebody out there will think I'm afraid too.

      Boy, you sure did set me up didn't you? You played nice for two whole days, and then... and then... AND THEN you type less than 20 words, which will cause me to have to type a thousand or so to respond!!!  And you called me a jerk? Thats pretty sneaky! I hope your proud of yourself! (I would be if I thought of it)

      All in all, its just as well. With DannyB and KittiK on the run, it was going to get boring around here without some debating going on. It was nice while it lasted, like going on a vacation, but just like a vacation, its also nice to come back home. So here we are back to normal... Let the debating begin!

                                                        Paul2 8)

You know i cant  leave BEP's job to easy ..... yes  Paul another thread...  :)

Yes another thread.

But just to get the juices flowing .... 8)

Rev 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 :P ;)



Who's looking out for thee?  2nd Timothy!  LOL  (okok sorry paul2, didn't mean to steal your sloggan)

Danny,

I just want to take a minute here and say something.  What you have posted in frustration has failed to make your point.  My friend, can you be humble enough to be wrong?


Your proof, my friend, is wrong.  Misunderstanding the scriptures posted and posting them in support of errant theology does not offer proof.  It provides those who are human, just like you, an opportunity to teach you the truth of the scriptures concerning this matter.  They, like you, can take things personally, and turn an opportunity into a personal failure.  We all can.   :)


No one here has to friend.  God already has, and whether we agree with what He has presented us or not makes no difference.  Whether we can grasp the understanding behind the concept makes no difference.  God will remain God, in His complexity.  We will remain human in our simplicity.  We simply must ask God to teach us what we don't know, and trust Him in what He shows us.  What you say He has shown you disagrees with what we say He has shown us.  Who then is at fault?  

Those of us who support the Trinity doctrine do so out of a foundational fact of faith.  This is chief in our understanding.  It is truth, and therefore beyond debate.  This is why people so adamantly defend their beliefs, possibly even to the detriment of those who misunderstand.  


That's a hard road for anyone to travel.  But it is a road that goes both ways.   :)

Heres some interesting thoughts on what the Jews are looking for in their messiah according to Modern Jewish Beliefs Concerning the Coming Messiah (http://www.ldolphin.org/messiah.html)

According to the prophets of the Bible, amongst the most basic missions of the messiah are:

*to cause all the world to return to G-d and His teachings,
*to restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David,
*to oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt;
*to gather the Jewish people from all over the world and *bring them home to the Land of Israel,
*and to reestablish the Sanhedrin,
*restore the sacrificial system,
*as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee.

We have already written in these pages that we believe that the messiah, sent by G-d Al-mighty, is not G-d, but a human being - but the greatest leader and wisest teacher who ever lived. He will put his extraordinary talents to use to precipitate a worldwide revolution which will bring perfect justice and harmony to humanity.

Who does this non G-d man sound like in scripture?  

John 5:43  I have come in My Father's Name, and you do not accept Me; but if someone else comes in his name, you will accept him.

Grace and Peace!

 All of this is true however you have forgotten the most important verse
         
         John 3:16 GOD so loved the world that he sent his one and only begotten son that whosoever belives in him shall not perish but have eternal life

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Let’s look further into Isaiah, at some supporting scripture that has not been quoted in this thread (I don’t think); as the Messiah was prophesied:

Isaiah
(43:11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no Savior.
(43:25) I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
(44:6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and His redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God.

In 43:11; God says He is the Savior – Jesus is our Savior, thus: Jesus is God
In 43:25; God says “I am he that blotteth out thy transgressions” – Jesus blotted out our sins, thus: Jesus is God.
In 44:6; God says He is both Lord King of Israel AND His Redeemer the Lord of Hosts – Jesus is our Redeemer, thus; Jesus is God.

YUPPERS

AMEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS!

All of the names of Almighty God are of majesty and glory.

To name just a few others, HE IS:

THE ALPHA AND OMEGA
THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH
THE BREAD OF LIFE
THE CHIEF SHEPHERD
THE DELIVERER
EMMANUEL
THE FIRST AND THE LAST
GOD BLESSED FOREVER
THE GREAT HIGH PRIEST
THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH
I AM
JEHOVAH
THE KING OF KINGS
THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD
LORD GOD ALMIGHTY
THE PRINCE OF PEACE
THE REDEEMER
THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE
THE LORD OF ALL
THE LORD OF GLORY
THE ROCK
THE TRUE GOD
THE TRUE LIGHT
THE TRUE VINE
THE TRUTH
THE WAY
THE WORD
THE WORD OF GOD
THE WORD OF LIFE

As just a sample.

Love In Christ,
Tom

HE IS

Now THAT says it ALL, Brother Tom!

Oklahoma Howdy to JudgeNot,

 :D  Brother, that's really just a start. I think that one could easily find a 100 or more Names and Titles for Christ, much more if I used some of the Jewish names for Christ. Many of the Jewish names are quite pretty and have beautiful meanings. I do a tiny bit of language studies from time to time, but I'm terribly slow. I bet one of our Jewish friends on the board could give us many beautiful names, many we've never heard.

Love In Christ,
Tom

         he had also said in Matthew 23 GOD was speaking to you when he said I am the God of your ancestors Abraham Jacob ans Issac

Brothers And Sisters,

I see there is a continuing need for this thread, so I have locked it for preservation and made it sticky to keep it at the top in this area of the forum.

Please See Is "Jesus God - Part Two" for our current discussion about this topic. For Part Two, I have combined some other threads that all ask the same question, "Is Jesus God?"

YES!! - Jesus Christ is and always has been Almighty God!!!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.