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Title: Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on April 14, 2003, 04:16:07 PM I have oftened wondered how a calvinist can know for certain that they are saved. I do not want to cast doubt on any bro or sis but I really do wonder how you know that you know that you are saved?
asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: ollie on April 14, 2003, 07:17:14 PM Good Question.
When one hears the good news of Jesus Christ they may or may not believe it. It is a choice to choose God. If one believes it and obeys the Lord, one knows he is saved because God's word declares it. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Sower on April 15, 2003, 03:44:09 PM Those Calvinists who genuinely believe, repent, and receive Christ must know that they are saved. However, TULIP does distort everything, and the focus shifts from God's marvelous, infinite grace, goodness and mercy to His sovereignty and election of some to salvation and others to damnation. This, in my estimation, is another gospel.
Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: oholiab on April 15, 2003, 03:47:26 PM Becase the Holy Spirit tells us so:"The Spirit himself testifires with our spirit that we are sons of God"(Rom 8:16)
Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Photogrunt on April 15, 2003, 05:57:40 PM Never mind Calvanists...and I'm not sure why you would pick this one sect to ask the question. For everyone, regardless of what title you put on it, choosing salvation through Jesus Christ is the way to know if one is saved or not.
As far as the 'elected' is concerned, my arguement is that God knows who will be saved and who won't before they are born. Those of us who choose to be saved are the 'elected' as described in scripture. We will never understand how the Allmighty works, thinks, or does things. Faith is what He asks of us. I place my faith in Him, His Son, and His Holy Spirit. My name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Now all that's left for me to worry about is living the best life I can with Jesus as my example, and to work the harvest as Jesus charged to his disciples. Amen! Blessed be His Name! Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on April 16, 2003, 11:57:59 AM I have no doubt that all of you that have posted are genuine believers saved and washed in the blood of the the Lamb. I rejoice with you. The reason I singled out the Calvinists is because we are all touched by this doctrine in one way or another. Parts of its tenets are in most of the church today.
Here is TULIP: Total Depravity Unconditional Election Limited Atonement Irresistible Grace Perserverance of the Saints If unconditional election is true how does one know that he is saved? What about those who think they are saved but really are not? Later they backslide and turn away from the faith proving that they were never really saved. In other words if God has determined beforehand who will be saved and who will be lost, how does one absolutely know which group he belongs to? I think that I am saved but the doubt still lingers that maybe I am just deluded and perhaps when persecution or some traumatic experience happens or some temptation comes along , or the fact that I am harbouring sin in my heart, in the end it will be proven that I really am not saved. Or I think I am saved but unconditional election dominates my thinking, and knowing God's just punishment of the wicked who are not of the elect, and seeing I have sin in my life daily, I have legitimate doubts about my status before God. After all I may not be one of the elect. I said to you who have posted above that I have no doubt that you are saved, but if the "u" of Tulip is true then really I have a basis to doubt, and so do you. There is really no security in the tulip. Our security is in Christ alone, not in unconditional election or in any other of the tenets of the tulip. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on April 16, 2003, 12:01:59 PM Good Question. When one hears the good news of Jesus Christ they may or may not believe it. It is a choice to choose God. If one believes it and obeys the Lord, one knows he is saved because God's word declares it. I like your answer. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on April 16, 2003, 12:06:31 PM Those Calvinists who genuinely believe, repent, and receive Christ must know that they are saved. However, TULIP does distort everything, and the focus shifts from God's marvelous, infinite grace, goodness and mercy to His sovereignty and election of some to salvation and others to damnation. This, in my estimation, is another gospel. I agree. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on April 16, 2003, 12:11:06 PM Becase the Holy Spirit tells us so:"The Spirit himself testifires with our spirit that we are sons of God"(Rom 8:16) That is a good answer. It is too bad that the tulip tends to steal this assurance away. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on April 16, 2003, 12:27:23 PM Never mind Calvanists...and I'm not sure why you would pick this one sect to ask the question. For everyone, regardless of what title you put on it, choosing salvation through Jesus Christ is the way to know if one is saved or not. As far as the 'elected' is concerned, my arguement is that God knows who will be saved and who won't before they are born. Those of us who choose to be saved are the 'elected' as described in scripture. We will never understand how the Allmighty works, thinks, or does things. Faith is what He asks of us. I place my faith in Him, His Son, and His Holy Spirit. My name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Now all that's left for me to worry about is living the best life I can with Jesus as my example, and to work the harvest as Jesus charged to his disciples. Amen! Blessed be His Name! I hear what you are saying. Jesus is committed to His faithfulness. He will take care of you. You do not have to worry one bit. Keep trusting His promises. Do not rely on your self or your works. But keep working the work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Photogrunt on April 16, 2003, 12:29:48 PM Amen bro. ;D
Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Ambassador4Christ on April 16, 2003, 05:29:54 PM Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on April 18, 2003, 08:52:03 PM Quote Posted by Sower as reply #2 Those Calvinists who genuinely believe, repent, and receive Christ must know that they are saved. However, TULIP does distort everything, and the focus shifts from God's marvelous, infinite grace, goodness and mercy to His sovereignty and election of some to salvation and others to damnation. This, in my estimation, is another gospel. Sower, You seem to focus quite a bit on Calvinism, and seem to overshadow the sovereignty of God, in putting forth your position, as thou man, by his own inate desire or ability is able to believe to the saving of the soul, apart from the miraculeous intervention by God himself in drawing men who are called, to Christ. While having a correct understanding that Election is also a perogative of God, you state the Calvinism teaches that only the elect can be saved; while this is true, in the end, Calvinism does not teach the Gospel is only for the elect; it is apparent when studying scripture, one can conclude that once a person becomes saved (regenerated by the Holy Spirit) that, that person is identified to be one of the elect, and this truth is made after the fact, and then one finds out he was also chosen in Him, from before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:4) You appear to deny the very teaching of scripture that "no one comes to the father except by me" (Jhn 14:6) and "No man comes to me except the father draw him" (Jhn 6:44), again "....and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." (Mat 11:27) And in the end, the elect are those who were chosen and predestinated in Him unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph1:5) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph1:11) Grace is Gods business, it is He who imparts it to whomsoever He desires, it has nothing to do with man at all, other than salvation is offered to all men by this Grace which is Gods and Gods alone, to do with it what He pleases. True Calvinists, who understand the teachings well, place the teaching in it's rightful place, "with God". Calvinism explains Total Depravity in a nut shell in the following paragraph, you don't seem to understand it, allow me to give it to you, and then if you are unable to understand it, please feel free to raise your point, we will see if perhaps we can clarify it for you. Total Depravity - When man fell, sin permeated every part of his personality. This includes his thinking, emotions, and will. Total depravity does not mean he is necessarily intensely sinful, it only means that sin has encompassed to his entire being. The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins. This is why 1Cor 2:14 states; "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Any man while in the fallen state is unable to "know nor receive, Christ" Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel. Man will never seek God on his own (he is in bondage to sin, and has no free will as many contend); he will never have a desire for God or righteousness. This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." Since man is totally incapable of seeking God, he will never find salvation through Jesus Christ on his own. The only time a person seeks this salvation is when God inserts a "desire for God" in his heart. If this is not your understanding of the condition of fallen man, and what the scriptures teach concerning him, then please explain?? And while you are at it, explain to me, how any man in his natural state, comes to Christ, whithout God the Holy Spirit first working in his heart to break down his resistance to the Gospel of Grace in him.?? On the other hand; If you agree with the Calvinsts teaching of Total Depravity, then what credit do you give man which allows him receive GRACE, that he might be saved by faith?? We see Salvation as a work of God, the natural man is unable, and has no power to answer in the affirmative towards Christ in order to be saved, this is only wishfull thinking, by proud men. Please note; All of those who believe they somehow received Grace by a faith they conjured up from within themselves, and are unable to recognize that it was God working in them to will and to do of HIS good pleasure, believe they can also lose it by sinning, go figure.... This idea only reimforces to those who know and believe the truth, that these remain in their sin of unbelief. Give God the Glory, don't glory in yourselves!! Blessings, Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on April 18, 2003, 09:11:13 PM By the way, to answer asaph's question, while not being necessarily a rigid Calvinist, since I believe, the points do not necessarily limit those who believe what Calvinism teaches in it's totality (it is not limited to 5 simplistic points).
Those of us who agree with the teaching which Calvinism proposes, KNOW without a doubt, that we are ETERNALLY SECURE in our faith, because the blood which bought us, paid for ALL, that is the TOTALITY of ALL of the SINS WE HAVE EVER COMMITTED and WILL COMMIT until the day we die in this body made from the cursed dust of this earth. We do not deny the blood that bought us.. On the other hand stout Arminians, deny the blood that bought them, claiming, sin can undo what Grace accomplished for them, let me remind these, that this position is heretical according to scripture. Having said this, I would qualify my statement by saying that among the goats who teach this lie, are sheep, who have been deceived by the father of lies who leads these teachers, who after saying this "that they can lose their salvation", expose their error, by then claiming they can be re-saved by the same blood, which they claim, was insufficient in that it was not able to cover the sin that caused them to fall away. I say to these deceived sheep, think about your position which you embrace, it is obvious you are being lead around by the nose, desiring to hear these false teachers, rather than the Word which saved them. Blessings, Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Drake on April 18, 2003, 11:09:21 PM Those Calvinists who genuinely believe, repent, and receive Christ must know that they are saved. However, TULIP does distort everything, and the focus shifts from God's marvelous, infinite grace, goodness and mercy to His sovereignty and election of some to salvation and others to damnation. This, in my estimation, is another gospel. Proverbs 16:4. The Lord has made all things for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. Petro that was a good post, thanks. I would like to add something from J.I. Packer: You give God thanks for your conversion. Now whydo you do that? Because you know in your heart that God was entirely responsible for it. You did not save yourself; He saved you. You did not put it down to chance or accident that you came under Christian influence when you did. You do not put it down to chance or accident that you attenred a Christian church, that you heard the Christian gospel, that you had Christian friends and, perhaps, a Christian hame, that the Bible fell into your hands, that you saw your need of Christ and came to trust Him as your Saviour. You do not attribute your repention and believing to your own wisdom, or prudence, or sound judgment, or good sense. Perhaps, in the days when you were seekong Christ, you laboured and strove hard, read and pondered much, but all that outlay of effort did not make your conbersion your own work. Your act of faith when you closed with Christ was yours in the sense that it was you who performed it; but that does not mean that you saved yourself. You would never dream of dividing the credit for your salvation between God and yourself. You have never for one moment supposed that the decisive contribution to your salvation was yours and not God's. You have never told god that, while you are grateful for the means and opportunities of grace that He gave you, you realize that you have to thank, not Him, But yourself for the fact that you responded to His call. Your heart revolts at the very thought of talking to God in such terms. In fact, you thank Him no less sincerely for the gift of faith and repentance than for the gift of a Christ to trust and turn to. You give God all the glory for all that your salvation involved, and you know that it would be blasphemy if you refused to thank Him for bringing you to faith. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on April 19, 2003, 02:16:36 AM What is the final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life?
asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on April 20, 2003, 10:55:35 PM What is the final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life? asaph asaph, The "final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life" is their own testimony. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:10) It is no wonder to me there are those who claim to be of the elect, but do not believe the Saviors own words, why should they believe, ours , who believe to the saving of the soul. We are "SECURE IN OUR FAITH" because we believe the words of Jesus. He said; And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, Those who claim to be Christians, who believe they can lose their election, agree with all other unregenerated religious pretenders, that they indeed can. So, is Jesus a liar, eternal life doesn't exist, and He won't be able to raise some up at the last day? This is a question they need to answer for themselves. This should be cause for concern to those who call themselves elect. Blessings, Petro, Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Saved_4ever on April 21, 2003, 06:09:38 AM This arguement is so old and silly. You have people who believe in Calvin, people who believe in Arminius and then people who believe in God. I find it most amusing that some people think you can be either arminian or clavinist when neither are totally correct. I have more and more problems with calvinists the more I meet them. They are usually cowards to do what God wants them to do hiding behind the "if God wants to save them or dod this he will, I can't do anything to change that." Hence making them sit on their lazy butts allowing something to go wrong or allow something ungodly happen because they don't want to step in.
For instance a child would be better off with his father but seeing how the courts work today the father has to jump through hoops and such to gain custody over the mother. a family member of the mother agree's that the mother is living a wretched way and the father should have custody. The family member now a coward to the reaction of his family members refuses to testify that this is so. The father now has nothing quite so solid for proof and does not gain custody. This is typical of 90% of the calvinists I have met. I haven't personally met any arminians to my knowledge but I already know what's wrong with them anyway. They are a prideful foolish bunch who trust in themselves and not God. They are also very legalistic and ignorant to the many things written in the Word. The rest of those that actually follow the LORD and His Word are always the "best of both worlds" having a much better and deeper understanding. From what I've seen sower and some others are in the right on this subject. God bless, Jason God bless, Jason Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Saved_4ever on April 21, 2003, 06:12:55 AM Oh yeah I forgot along with my experiences the calvinst trusts in his tongue and not his heart. Meaning that they believe I said it, so now it's so. They often times have no problem sinning willfully and caring little, while rebuking those that do the same as them simply because they have not said they believe in Jesus. I know a whole family of that brand and it makes me sick.
Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on April 21, 2003, 01:48:10 PM JASON
It sounds as though you have fighting your own Jihad (otherwise how could you know what others who are not your servants must do, or not do), this may be why, you are not able to continue in the discussion, since you acknowledge neither side is "totally correct" , so I suppose you would have us believe you have received special revelation, and you prepose to teach those who have errored. I would suggest to you that you do not know what Calvinists teach at all and are not even qualified to comment on the the subject. And that perhaps the problem isn't what others ought be doing, but what you presume to know and believe. I wouldn't be as outspoken about what others should do. Other then study the word and ask guidance from above, most who disagree with Calvinism, have their own presuppositions and preconceived notions, un fortunatelymn thats all they are. I am sure you are not God! Blessings, to you anyhow.. Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Saved_4ever on April 21, 2003, 01:55:54 PM Oh I get it now, YOU have all the answers instead.
Please ::) Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Tawhano on April 21, 2003, 05:30:38 PM This brings to mind the advice Paul gives to the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? This is why I've become a 'free agent. I believe once you aligned yourself with some man’s teaching of the word you close yourself off to God’s teaching. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Sower on April 22, 2003, 02:41:43 AM Saved_4ever
Quote This argument is so old and silly. You have people who believe in Calvin, people who believe in Arminius and then people who believe in God. Not only is it silly, but destructive as well. This division has done great harm by maintaining a rift over two schools of theology rather than unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. It is true that neither school is correct, and both are fundamentally flawed. It's time to say throw both out and let Scripture be the sole authority. God does not elect some to heaven and others to hell. Christ's atonement cannot be limited since He is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29). Otherwise Scripture would not declare "God now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent" (Acts 17:30). Neither does a true child of God lose his or her salvation. As to the question heading the thread, Calvinists who have genuinely believed, genuinely repented, and genuinely received Christ are indeed saved. So are Arminians. So are all believers who simply ignore their theology. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on April 22, 2003, 04:03:35 AM Hi again Petro,
Your words: "You appear to deny the very teaching of scripture that "no one comes to the father except by me" (Jhn 14:6) and "No man comes to me except the father draw him" (Jhn 6:44), again "....and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." (Mat 11:27) And in the end, the elect are those who were chosen and predestinated in Him unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph1:5) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph1:11)" My observation: What did Jesus mean by this: John 6 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Are not all taught of God the Father? Do all hear from the heart? Does this verse qualify verse 44? John 6 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. It seems to me that the Father attempts to draw all people through His teaching but only those who hear and have learned of the Father come to Jesus. Some people resist Gods' grace, stopping their ears. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on April 22, 2003, 11:58:47 AM What is the final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life? asaph asaph, The "final evidence that one is of the elect to eternal life" is their own testimony. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:10) It is no wonder to me there are those who claim to be of the elect, but do not believe the Saviors own words, why should they believe, ours , who believe to the saving of the soul. We are "SECURE IN OUR FAITH" because we believe the words of Jesus. He said; And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, Those who claim to be Christians, who believe they can lose their election, agree with all other unregenerated religious pretenders, that they indeed can. So, is Jesus a liar, eternal life doesn't exist, and He won't be able to raise some up at the last day? This is a question they need to answer for themselves. This should be cause for concern to those who call themselves elect. Blessings, Petro, What does it mean to make our calling and election sure? Is it not true that having life eternal is a condition of being in Christ? Is not election also a result of being in Christ? Did not Jesus say abide in me and I in you? Is keeping His command to abide in Him a yoke too burdensome to bear, or is it a joy? Someone has said To love the Lord is to enjoy Him.This is true. Fellowship with the Lord Jesus and the Father is an enjoyment! I am not of the camp that believes that as soon as one sins he loses his election status. God is lonsuffering and patient. If anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous. But unconfessed sin, when it is finished with its work, brings forth death. This can't be physical death but spiritual. Jesus told us not to fear physical death, the destruction of the body. But we should be alert to spiritual death. If we would simply focus on enjoying Jesus, obeying His instant commands daily, we need not fear spiritual death at all. Our journey is one of faith and fellowship with the God of grace. We do not depend on ourselves but on the one we trust, Jesus. He imparts his energy into us as we trust and enjoy Him. Obedience is the result. Jesus learned obedience through the things which he suffered. He trusted and enjoyed the Father through the testings he went through. The result was obedience. Now if we do not trust and enjoy Him through the trials of life, then disobedience (sin) is the result and the end is death. For the joy that was set before Him, He endured the cross, despising the shame. Let us follow in his steps. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on April 22, 2003, 01:11:40 PM asaph,
What scriptures do you rely on, aside from the the fact God is long suffering not willing that any should perish. Which would substantuate your belief, that sin would not cause imediate death. According to the Law of Moses, the man that broke the law, was put to death that same day. We know Adam die spiritually, the very day he disobeyed the command. Transgression of the law is sin, according to (1 Jhn 3:4) God himself says; Eze 18 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Certainly you must have a more perfect understanbding of some scripture which assures you, you do not die, when you commit sin?? It is interesting that idolatrous religions today, have a similar understanding of scripture, but certainlhy you don't place your faith in these teachings. My Bible gives a perfect parallel in the story of the Prodigal son, to a child of God, commiting sin and never being disowned by his father. I am afraid, yours is a misunderstanding together with these others, based on giving more credibility to the teaching of men, rather than listening to the Words of the Savior. No one who is saved can or will lose his salvation. I wonder how you interpret Heb 6:4-6?? The they's in these verses, are they the saved ones?? Blessings Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on April 22, 2003, 01:35:40 PM Saved_4ever Quote This argument is so old and silly. You have people who believe in Calvin, people who believe in Arminius and then people who believe in God. Not only is it silly, but destructive as well. This division has done great harm by maintaining a rift over two schools of theology rather than unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. It is true that neither school is correct, and both are fundamentally flawed. It's time to say throw both out and let Scripture be the sole authority. God does not elect some to heaven and others to hell. Christ's atonement cannot be limited since He is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29). Otherwise Scripture would not declare "God now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent" (Acts 17:30). Neither does a true child of God lose his or her salvation. As to the question heading the thread, Calvinists who have genuinely believed, genuinely repented, and genuinely received Christ are indeed saved. So are Arminians. So are all believers who simply ignore their theology. I don't agree with you at all, those who are saved, are saved providing they have been regenerated by the Spirit, it matters nothing if they adhere to either teaching (this agree to comp[letely) . If so, they should be teachable and sensitive to what the Spirit teaches. Many who claim to be are not, it is evident by thie worship and twisted understanding of scripture. The questions I posed to you, are difficult, I knew you wouldn't anwers them, and I know you nor others who rail against Calvinsim, are unable to answer, because there are no anwers. The only reason you say what you've said, is because you know anyone who is elected by God and predestinated to Eternal Life can never lose the free gift that the grace of God has provided through faith. But your understanding of the "T" which brought us to this point is flawed. So why make such statements such as you have made, to deceive. It is better to hold thy peace. Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Sower on April 22, 2003, 08:34:19 PM Quote So why make such statements such as you have made, to deceive. It is better to hold thy peace. The great deception is that a mere mortal, a saved sinner -John Calvin -- could put God into a box called "Reformed theology". Bible truth is plain, but the workings of God upon human hearts are mysterious and cannot be boiled down to five points or fifty points. This is what Scripture declares: And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30). If (1) God commands all men (2) God commands all men everywhere (3) God is not willing that any should perish (4) but that all should come to repentance (5) God would have all men be saved (6) And come to a knowledge of the truth (7) God says "Ho, every one that thirsteth, Come" (8) God says "Look unto me all the ends of the earth and be saved" (9) God says "Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely" On what grounds can any man controvert this invitation with the false doctrine of limited atonement? Unless you answer this question satisfactorily for everyone, none of the rest of your questions matter. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on April 23, 2003, 12:57:26 AM Quote author Sower Quote So why make such statements such as you have made, to deceive. It is better to hold thy peace. The great deception is that a mere mortal, a saved sinner -John Calvin -- could put God into a box called "Reformed theology". Bible truth is plain, but the workings of God upon human hearts are mysterious and cannot be boiled down to five points or fifty points. This is what Scripture declares: And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30). If (1) God commands all men (2) God commands all men everywhere (3) God is not willing that any should perish (4) but that all should come to repentance (5) God would have all men be saved (6) And come to a knowledge of the truth (7) God says "Ho, every one that thirsteth, Come" (8) God says "Look unto me all the ends of the earth and be saved" (9) God says "Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely" On what grounds can any man controvert this invitation with the false doctrine of limited atonement? Unless you answer this question satisfactorily for everyone, none of the rest of your questions matter. [/quoter] Sower, you are slippery. The points you make above are Gods will for mankind, Gods says, God Commands, God desires, no argument with these. But you whiz against the wind on this one, speaking of JW's, your argujments remind me of, them, when one starts to pin them down, they change the subject. Concerning Calvinism; You argue against all the points, without considering what each point really proposes, and when asked tough questions, you jump to the next point without resolving the previous point. Your arguments, are based on a distorted view of what Calvin taught, and you assume that the 5 points of Calvinism are "before the fact", while the case has been plainly made, that both sides have proposed the points as a summation of what the scriptures actually teach concerning these things, according to the views of these two camps. One not only has been rejected, but deemed heretical in their stance, if you say, in rejecting the point of election (another gospel) I presume you align yourself with the heretics, on it. And of course, like all bias individuals, you view what you presume to be so, in a different light. Your attention is invited to Reply #3, on the Theology/Calvinism TULIP- thread ; http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=51;start=0 You make this claim on 4/15/03: "Total Depravity" which according to Calvinists means that no one can respond to the Gospel unless they are made to respond by the Holy Spirit because they are one of the Elect. (notice I have emboldened the lie, you inserted in your statement) Just like a false teacher, you have taken a biblical truth and inserted a lie. Calvin taught plainly, that every sinner must believe first before he can be saved (sealed by the Spirit of Promise), those who believe and are saved, are revealed as the elect. Of course there is more to this doctrinal point, but in summation the point of the acronym designated by the letter T, It is accurate to state, "the elect are saved", and ultimately when all is said and done, one can safely state "only all the elect are saved. Calvinism's Uncoditional Election, is not based on God's foreknowledge. While Conditional Election (the Arminian position) is rooted in predestination being God's foreknowledge, the mere definition of Grace, refutes this very thought. I doubt you even can grasp this. Again in Reply #2, of this thread, you posted the following: "Those Calvinists who genuinely believe, repent, and receive Christ must know that they are saved. However, TULIP does distort everything, and the focus shifts from God's marvelous, infinite grace, goodness and mercy to His sovereignty and election of some to salvation and others to damnation. This, in my estimation, is another gospel." How absurd, your statement, together with this last one. These, for sure reveals to me you are misinformed and as I said before, you are not qualified to speak about the subject of what John Calvin taught, you know nothing at all of the principles which he taught concerning these doctrines. God while speaking to spiritual Israel, says; Isa 43 4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. Rom 9 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, I suppose you would argue, these verses are not speaking about Gods sovereignty?? I know you and the camp you represent, can't stand God being Sovereign over his creation, and this is the reason, why you reject these biblical truths, you make yourself sovereign, and would probaly even argue man's free will is equal to God's sovereign will, but the worst thing is that in order to give your point credibility, you attack the teachings of a real man of God. I say engage your brain, before opening mouth, on the other hand I do not have to answer any questions satisfactorily to any of these points, they speak for themselves, all any honest individual has to do is take the time to familiarize himself with what is REALLY taught, before jumping to conclusions, and making wild assertions, this is why you all have no credibility. Blessing, Petro PS I am not in total agreement with the manner in which the points are articulated, but I understand perfectly what the teachings delineate,................. you don't.. and I wouldn't describe myself a staunch Calvinist. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Saved_4ever on April 23, 2003, 07:17:11 AM Quote but I understand perfectly what the teachings delineate,................. you don't.. and I wouldn't describe myself a staunch Calvinist. You really make me laugh sometimes. You aren't a staunch calvinist yet you defend it as if it were the end all be all. ::) Whatever, you and many Calvinist's don't truly understand sovereignty. Just because someone has total control does not mean they have to exercise total control and then can change when they want. Calvinism also places the boundries of time on God constantly moaning about "before the foundation of the world" yet God is not limited by time seeing as to Him things are, were, and going to be all at the same time. We are "with God now, not born, serving Him now." mind boggling to say the least and I don't even try to comprehend it because it makes my head hurt. When you realize this things become much clearer. It's really impossible for us to understand the concept of knowing everything at once. Also from what I've heard calvinists believe in man's responcability and God's sovereignty at the same time. Oh, ok that makes sense and still keeps in line with Calvinism. Just think, did it ever occur to you that nothing occurs to God? God bless, Jason Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on April 23, 2003, 02:44:16 PM Quote but I understand perfectly what the teachings delineate,................. you don't.. and I wouldn't describe myself a staunch Calvinist. You really make me laugh sometimes. You aren't a staunch calvinist yet you defend it as if it were the end all be all. ::) Whatever, you and many Calvinist's don't truly understand sovereignty. Just because someone has total control does not mean they have to exercise total control and then can change when they want. Calvinism also places the boundries of time on God constantly moaning about "before the foundation of the world" yet God is not limited by time seeing as to Him things are, were, and going to be all at the same time. We are "with God now, not born, serving Him now." mind boggling to say the least and I don't even try to comprehend it because it makes my head hurt. When you realize this things become much clearer. It's really impossible for us to understand the concept of knowing everything at once. Also from what I've heard calvinists believe in man's responcability and God's sovereignty at the same time. Oh, ok that makes sense and still keeps in line with Calvinism. Just think, did it ever occur to you that nothing occurs to God? God bless, Jason Jason, Quote posted by Saved 4ever, on the TULIP thread, while answering Jeolkaki; Well until I have some better experiences it remains unchanged. Concerning your comenent to Joel, I knew you were speaking from experiences, when making those accusations, do you do what you ought to?? I suppose I should have eloborated, in my closing comment, I am sure you don't slip your tongue occasionally. Concerning what Calvin taught is what I defend, there is no bases to the teachings on the other side Peligianism, or semi-Peligianism is error, period, As I stated before and many times before, the 5 points of Calvinsim are not what Calvin taught at all, they could have been better articulated, in line with his teachings, and it would keep from turning into what it has become today. You "free agents" are a joke, in the end you agree, with what John Calvin taught, but are so proud, you would rather be known as lone rangers, then confess it publicly,if you do believe the bible you all are "closet Calvinists" and don't even know it. Desiring to be teachers, you have need of being taught.. Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Saved_4ever on April 24, 2003, 01:32:14 AM I never said everything calvin ever taught or said was wrong. But you like others cling to a man's idea that don't totally hold up to what the bible says. When one is a biblicist then he sees that there are both things in there yet they don't seem to totally fit together. This is where the faith truly comes in. You make the bible fit your theology instead of making your theology fit the bible.
I never said that anyone never err but to use the excuses I've heard for not doing something they KNOW they should do is sad and quite upsetting. You can make all the accusations you want it bothers me llittle. Take care, Jason (cowboy) hehe that's funny. ;D Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on April 24, 2003, 02:10:16 AM I never said everything calvin ever taught or said was wrong. But you like others cling to a man's idea that don't totally hold up to what the bible says. When one is a biblicist then he sees that there are both things in there yet they don't seem to totally fit together. This is where the faith truly comes in. You make the bible fit your theology instead of making your theology fit the bible. I never said that anyone never err but to use the excuses I've heard for not doing something they KNOW they should do is sad and quite upsetting. You can make all the accusations you want it bothers me llittle. Take care, Jason (cowboy) hehe that's funny. ;D Jason, Yeah, yaa, yaa.....pipe dreams/// My mistake, I guess I owe you an aopology, you didn't rail on Calvin himself, it was another cowboy. and you haven't convinced me your all that astute..on what Calvin taught, so it doesn't matter, what comments you make. I say study your bible....work on your own "birds nest", and quit trying to help others with theirs. He Hey,.. Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Saved_4ever on April 24, 2003, 03:22:54 AM Quote I say study your bible....work on your own "birds nest", and quit trying to help others with theirs. Wouldn't you be doing the same thing right now? Or are you telling me that you know so much more then me that I should come back later? Either way I don't care. I am studying my bible all the time. As we all SHOULD be doing always. It's funny you didn't seem to have such a problem with me when my SN was atyrus28. Oh well as I said I'm none too worried. God bless, Jason Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on April 24, 2003, 05:37:19 PM Quote I say study your bible....work on your own "birds nest", and quit trying to help others with theirs. Wouldn't you be doing the same thing right now? Or are you telling me that you know so much more then me that I should come back later? Either way I don't care. I am studying my bible all the time. As we all SHOULD be doing always. It's funny you didn't seem to have such a problem with me when my SN was atyrus28. Oh well as I said I'm none too worried. God bless, Jason The fact is, I don't have a problem with you at all, it is just the way, you came out throwing your weight around. I've read enough of your posts, to know you agree with what John Calvin taught; I think you don't realize it, and then again maybe you don't, who knows?? One must reject Calvins teachings to accomadate the unity teaching, these days. Thanks but no thanks... Again, John Calvin never articulated the 5 Points of the TULIP, they were written to counter the 5 articles of the faith, submitted by Jacobus's following; and more prcisely as a logical conclusion addressing exactly point for point. The fact is, Calvin's teachings, can't be reduced to 5 points, its ridiculous, to even begin to believe this, and above all else the first point insults the natural tendency of man, because after all, isn't he like God, to know good and evil. The problem as I see it, is the false teaching that is perpetuated by this idea, "man has a free will", when it is evident he doesn't, and then for you to make a blanket statement and accuse those who stand firm on this truth, by stating, those who believe this, don't share the good word with a dieing world is a careless, not well thought out statement, you may have met some who claim association with Calvinism, but you haven't met all, your percentages mean nothing, it all depends where you hang out. Anyhow, it's not just the "birds nest", but where the other end of the line is, the hook line and sinker, of these erroneous teachings have been swalloewed by those who are supposed to be the fishers men.. go figure.. Blessings to you also, Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Saved_4ever on April 26, 2003, 02:44:31 AM Quote One must reject Calvins teachings to accomadate the unity teaching, these days. I never said anything about "unity teaching". I'm talking about people being bibilicist's. When you just read the bible and see what it has to say there are obvious proplems with some theological points on "either side". I'm not talking about unifiying anything but the bible. If you don't feel the same way such is life. I'm not here to tell you you MUST believe what I have found, but giving my view as you also do. I'm not "throwing around my weight" because I have none to throw. I do have some strong convictions on the things I have found. There is plenty in the bible that I can't see how they fit but God knows better than I so I accept these things with faith that they are so. As I said we often try to make everything fit in time which is just stupid because God is not bound by time. A LOT of calvinist idea's rest on the "before the foundation of the world, yet Christ was/is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. That means he was already crucified before He got here. At least as far as our perception of time is concerned. You don't have to agree but I have realized some of these facts, and here is where some real faith comes into play. God bless, Jason Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Anselm on June 19, 2003, 12:50:56 PM The very point of Calvinism is eternal security. It is the Arminian or "free willer" who risks floundering. Arminians could conceivably forfeit their salvation as a result of their own will. Calvinism states that the mind, will, and affections are all held under the loving and irresistable grace of God. Secondly, the acronym TULIP is not Calvinism. It is a defense of grace against Arminianism by godly reformed men of the sixteenth century, precisely for the reason of keeping christian assurance and security of salvation in tact because Arminians attacked it. Calvinism is defined by John Calvin who taught of general and special revelation, law and grace, the providence of God, the Fatherhood of God etc...Those who proudly believe that Jesus plus their depraved volition or will are responsible for their salvation are the most insecure christians precisely because they proudly hold salvation in the power of their own hands, and have not submitted wholly to grace.
Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on June 19, 2003, 09:23:39 PM But how does a calvinist no for sure he is one of the elect? How does he know that he will never fall away, proving that he never was a true believer in the first place? How does he know that he is not being deceived and that God already knows he is going to hell? You might not be God's elect and are only professing a false profession. Right now, in spite of your faith, God knows you are really not saved. Though you do not know it, you are in reality going to hell. My answer is that a calvinist cannot know, except by final perseverance, that he was ever really truly one of the elect.
My point is that you do not have to be calvinist or arminian to know you are elect. Just believe the scripture that says whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Cling to that and live. Let go of that and die. I am not arminian or calvinist; I simply believe God's promises. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: John the Baptist on June 20, 2003, 05:48:27 AM My point is that you do not have to be calvinist or arminian to know you are elect. Just believe the scripture that says whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Cling to that and live. Let go of that and die.
I am not arminian or calvinist; I simply believe God's promises. asaph Quote ************* John here: Just the one verse? or two promises?? What about Matt. 4:4's DIET?? :'( Or the devils quoted promise of Matt. 4:6 ??? And your quote states: "SHOULD NOT PERISH" Should not means what?? There is NO SUCH GOSPEL PROMISES that do away with the Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant CONDITIONS! Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20 ---John Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Whitehorse on June 20, 2003, 10:36:58 AM Hi, Anselm! Very good observations there! Of course you know I'm biased. ;)
Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on June 20, 2003, 10:45:33 AM My point is that you do not have to be calvinist or arminian to know you are elect. Just believe the scripture that says whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Cling to that and live. Let go of that and die. John,I am not arminian or calvinist; I simply believe God's promises. asaph Quote ************* John here: Just the one verse? or two promises?? What about Matt. 4:4's DIET?? :'( Or the devils quoted promise of Matt. 4:6 ??? And your quote states: "SHOULD NOT PERISH" Should not means what?? There is NO SUCH GOSPEL PROMISES that do away with the Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant CONDITIONS! Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20 ---John Did I say just one or two promises? What are the conditions? How about repentance toward God? How about faith in our Lord Jesus Christ? Is not this the work of God? It is the goodness of God that leads one to repentance. God works to the end that we might repent. This also is the work of God: that you believe in the one He has sent. Now if we shipwreck "the faith", it's because we have let go of faith and a good conscience. Our conscience is the seat of repentance. We need to walk in repentance else we will shipwreck "the faith". The bible gives examples of those who have become shipwrecked. 1 Timothy 1 18 This charge I commit to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you might war the good warfare, 19 Holding faith and a good conscience, concerning which some, thrusting these away, have become shipwrecked regarding the faith; ["The faith" here is objective, referring to the things in which we believe, whereas "faith" at the beginning of this verse is subjective, referring to the act of our believing. See also Galatians 1:23 which says: "But they only heard this: He who was formerly persecuting us is now announcing as the gospel the faith which formerly he ravaged." The faith here implies our believing in Christ, taking His person and His redemptive work as the object of our faith. The faith, replacing the law, by which God dealt with people in the Old Testament, became the principle by which God deals with people in the New Testament. This faith characterizes the believers in Christ and distinguishes them from the keepers of law. This is the main emphasis of the letter to the Galatians. The law of the Old Testament stresses letters and ordinances, whereas the faith of the New Testament emphasizes the Spirit and life.] 20 Of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may be disciplined not to blaspheme. (Recovery Version) Please do not try to steal away the liberty we have in the faith by saying we have to keep the letter of the old covenant. If we let go of faith and a good conscience then we become shipwrecked in relation to the faith; we would be blaspheming. I see the faith as the gospel. It is the ocean on which we sail. Faith and a good conscience is the ship we sail in. Lose them and you become shipwrecked on the rocks of sin and unbelief. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: John the Baptist on June 20, 2003, 12:46:37 PM Hay, John here:
glad that I gave you an opportunity to give some more of your insight! :) Sound's pretty good so far? Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Anselm on June 21, 2003, 11:15:14 AM But how does a calvinist no for sure he is one of the elect? How does he know that he will never fall away?
A Calvinist does not put his faith in the logistics of election. He does believe that God has chosen some to salvation and called many. A Calvinist knows he is saved by the faith he has in Jesus Christ. A heartfelt knowledge a convicting certainty that his sins are forgiven and he is no longer a child of satan but of God. He does not look at his sinful life, nor does he base his salvation's security in his sanctification or good works. His assurance comes from faith in the good shephard in whom he now loves. The sheep hear His voice and they know Him for He gives unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. Good works can make the conscience rest confidently that it is doing good in the strength of Jesus Christ. But no good work nor the process of election are the grounds of a calvinist's security. The Holy Spirit witnesses with the spirit of the child of God that he is saved. The reason is the child's hero, the Lord Jesus Christ, embraced by living faith through grace. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on June 22, 2003, 01:53:05 AM Hay, John here: Thanks John.glad that I gave you an opportunity to give some more of your insight! :) Sound's pretty good so far? asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on June 22, 2003, 02:30:34 AM But how does a calvinist no for sure he is one of the elect? How does he know that he will never fall away? Anselm,A Calvinist does not put his faith in the logistics of election. He does believe that God has chosen some to salvation and called many. A Calvinist knows he is saved by the faith he has in Jesus Christ. A heartfelt knowledge a convicting certainty that his sins are forgiven and he is no longer a child of satan but of God. He does not look at his sinful life, nor does he base his salvation's security in his sanctification or good works. His assurance comes from faith in the good shephard in whom he now loves. The sheep hear His voice and they know Him for He gives unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. Good works can make the conscience rest confidently that it is doing good in the strength of Jesus Christ. But no good work nor the process of election are the grounds of a calvinist's security. The Holy Spirit witnesses with the spirit of the child of God that he is saved. The reason is the child's hero, the Lord Jesus Christ, embraced by living faith through grace. Thanks for your post. I can appreciate what you are saying. The Lord Jesus is our only Savior and Sanctifier. 1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. What came first, the chicken or the egg? What came first, election or faith in Jesus? My answer is- Jesus is God's elect, so election came first, because Jesus was before the foundation of the world. We are elect in Him. Only faith can affirm this. In Adam all die. Because of Adam's sin we in him are sinners; we took on Adams lostness. But in Christ we are made righteous, we take on His election and all that it entails: righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost! Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. What great judgment He has brought to us! We are judged elect in Him, righteous in Him, sanctified in Him, and redeemed in Him! This is the wisdom of God. Even election does not precede Him, but is in Him; all this according to the foreknowledge of God. But none of this happens in us apart from our faith in Him. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: John the Baptist on June 22, 2003, 06:42:10 AM But how does a calvinist no for sure he is one of the elect? How does he know that he will never fall away? Anselm,A Calvinist does not put his faith in the logistics of election. He does believe that God has chosen some to salvation and called many. A Calvinist knows he is saved by the faith he has in Jesus Christ. A heartfelt knowledge a convicting certainty that his sins are forgiven and he is no longer a child of satan but of God. He does not look at his sinful life, nor does he base his salvation's security in his sanctification or good works. His assurance comes from faith in the good shephard in whom he now loves. The sheep hear His voice and they know Him for He gives unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. Good works can make the conscience rest confidently that it is doing good in the strength of Jesus Christ. But no good work nor the process of election are the grounds of a calvinist's security. The Holy Spirit witnesses with the spirit of the child of God that he is saved. The reason is the child's hero, the Lord Jesus Christ, embraced by living faith through grace. Thanks for your post. I can appreciate what you are saying. The Lord Jesus is our only Savior and Sanctifier. 1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. What came first, the chicken or the egg? What came first, election or faith in Jesus? My answer is- Jesus is God's elect, so election came first, because Jesus was before the foundation of the world. We are elect in Him. Only faith can affirm this. In Adam all die. Because of Adam's sin we in him are sinners; we took on Adams lostness. But in Christ we are made righteous, we take on His election and all that it entails: righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost! Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. What great judgment He has brought to us! We are judged elect in Him, righteous in Him, sanctified in Him, and redeemed in Him! This is the wisdom of God. Even election does not precede Him, but is in Him; all this according to the foreknowledge of God. But none of this happens in us apart from our faith in Him. asaph And.. 'Our Faith in Him' does what?---John Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on June 22, 2003, 12:40:19 PM And.. 'Our Faith in Him' does what?---John
Our faith substantiates all that is in Christ (the way, the truth and the life). We appropriate righteousness, holiness and redemption by faith in Jesus. If we do not trust Him, having seen what is in Him (His sinless life and His divine nature) and what He has accomplished through His death, burial, resurrection and ascension we receive nothing; we are yet in our sins. This faith substantiates real holiness, etc, in daily living. We live out the reality of Christ by faith. That's why Jesus said that faith as small a grain of mustered seed can remove mountains. Hebrews 11 1 Now faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes forward to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Anselm on June 23, 2003, 12:43:04 PM Faith is a gift from God
Faith is what He asks of us. I place my faith in Him, His Son, and His Holy Spirit. Photogrunt, yes “Faith is a gift from God” Not something which man conjured. Our faith substantiates all that is in Christ (the way, the truth and the life). We appropriate righteousness, holiness and redemption by faith in Jesus. Asaph The Holy Spirit sent by Jesus, stirs us to faith, instills it where it never once dwelled, in order to lead us to God. But none of this happens in us apart from our faith in Him. Asaph. Yes, and the Bible teaches, “Faith is a gift from God.” Our security is in Christ alone, not in unconditional election or in any other of the tenets of the tulip. Asaph True, Calvinists do not put their trust in total depravity to be saved but Christ from whom regeneration flows, the ugly truth about ourselves is told, and the gift of faith comes. "No man comes to me except the father draw him" (Jhn 6:44), “ Truth that is sweet for God delivered me when I was his enemy. An Enemy has no love for his opponent, whatsoever. This is why 1Cor 2:14 states; "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Yes, we were dead, corpses, open graves, dead men’s bones, vipers, the wicked, where is love,where is goodness, where is faith in these biblical pictures of what we once were. Please note; All of those who believe they somehow received Grace by a faith they conjured up from within themselves, and are unable to recognize that it was God working in them to will and to do of HIS good pleasure, believe they can also lose it by sinning, go figure.... Petro So true. You have never told god that, while you are grateful for the means and opportunities of grace that He gave you, you realize that you have to thank, not Him, But yourself for the fact that you responded to His call. Your heart revolts at the very thought of talking to God in such terms. In fact, you thank Him no less sincerely for the gift of faith and repentance than for the gift of a Christ to trust and turn to. Drake The power of a word spoken in admiration for God’s mercy. I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. Certainly Paul is not calling us to become unified with the heretic teachings he himself attacks. Did not Paul divide himself from the heretical teachers who sought to undermine grace and admonish the churches to mark those who bring teachings contrary to grace? Is he not crying out for unity in the truth about God’s grace? This is why I've become a 'free agent. I believe once you aligned yourself with some man’s teaching of the word you close yourself off to God’s teaching. Tawhano Is this your new teaching? It is true that neither school is correct, and both are fundamentally flawed. It's time to say throw both out and let Scripture be the sole authority. Sower Do not many cults push this notion? God does not elect some to heaven and others to hell. Christ's atonement cannot be limited since He is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29). Otherwise Scripture would not declare "God now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent" (Acts 17:30). Neither does a true child of God lose his or her salvation. Sower Is this not a theological position? My observation: What did Jesus mean by this: John 6 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Asaph Are you a Universalist? What does it mean to make our calling and election sure? Asaph It means to believe in Salvation by grace, to gather your assurance from the master, to lay down your self righteousness. (1) God commands all men (2) God commands all men everywhere (3) God is not willing that any should perish (4) but that all should come to repentance (5) God would have all men be saved (6) And come to a knowledge of the truth (7) God says "Ho, every one that thirsteth, Come" (8) God says "Look unto me all the ends of the earth and be saved" (9) God says "Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely" This division has done great harm by maintaining a rift over two schools of theology rather than unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. On what grounds can any man controvert this invitation with the false doctrine of limited atonement? Sower Interesting, how you condemn the controversey, both sides, call for unity, then argue vehemently for the "Free will" side? Also, why did you leave out the verses that show God’s saving power here? Is it that much of a struggle to believe that “Many are called (your list above) but few are chosen (the list you omitted)? I've heard calvinists believe in man's responcability and God's sovereignty at the same time. Oh, ok that makes sense and still keeps in line with Calvinism. When one is a biblicist then he sees that there are both things in there yet they don't seem to totally fit together. Saved-4-Ever So now that you are eternally secure will you abandon living righteously because they don’t fit together? 1 Timothy 1 18 This charge I commit to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you might war the good warfare, 19 Holding faith and a good conscience, concerning which some, thrusting these away, have become shipwrecked regarding the faith;” Faith in the grace of God, Salvation of the Lord, not by works, nor him that wills, but God, perhaps, maybe? What came first, the chicken or the egg? What came first, election or faith in Jesus? My answer is- Jesus is God's elect, so election came first, because Jesus was before the foundation of the world. We are elect in Him. Only faith can affirm this. In Adam all die. Because of Adam's sin we in him are sinners; we took on Adams lostness. But in Christ we are made righteous, we take on His election and all that it entails: righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost! Asaph Was Jesus the elect Son prior to the creation of the world, yes. Psalm 2 “Ask of me and I will give you the heathen for an inheritance” It is amazing to me that those who promote God’s grace to the hilt, are attacked by their own brethren. But that is no new thing. Paul was assaulted by those with different views of human nature and God’s saving power. The chief problem Paul’s epistles address are those who claimed power in their salvation shifting it from Grace to human effort. From the Gnostic and Hebraic legalists in Collosians to the bewitched Judaizing ceremonialists in Galations, Romans, Hebrews and many others. All were seeking to claim some credit, some goodness in themselves, some proud theory to elevate themselves over the rest of us. Whether it was the proud earthly wisdom of the greeks or the self righteouness of the legalizers. Paul fought valiantly to extinguish the maddening flames of man’s self deifying. Some things never change. Sadly. But still this truth remains, many here with whom I disagree, are my brothers in Christ, beloved in Jesus. And you can teach me much. And my eyes are attentive to many truths you are writing about. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on June 23, 2003, 09:40:21 PM My observation:
What did Jesus mean by this: John 6 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Asaph Are you a Universalist? I am not a Universalist. All will be taught but only those who hear and learn will come to Jesus. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on June 25, 2003, 10:11:53 PM Quote posted by asaph as reply #48 My observation: What did Jesus mean by this: John 6 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Asaph Are you a Universalist? I am not a Universalist. All will be taught but only those who hear and learn will come to Jesus. asaph Asaph, Being taught, doesn't end when one comes to Christ, for it is the Holy Spirit that continues to lead and teach, all believers. True, it is that there are; teachers in the the church, but, like the bereans which were more honorable than those from Thessalonica, all believers are to; "receive the word with all readiness of mind, and search the scriptures daily, whether those things be so." This is the way, we can prove all things, whether they be of God. Of course the title to this thread is why I make these points. Consider this passages; Gal 6 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For every man shall bear his own burden. 6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Is this only speaking of pastors or preachers?? The answer is NO, this is speaking of all believers.. At John 6:45, Jesus specifically states, that only those who have been taught by the Father "cometh to me" But, is this the end of the teaching of the doctrines of God??, nay,....... Isa 28 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Consider what Jesus said at; Jhn 7 16 ......, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. Was not the Apostles DOCTRINE, the same as taught to them by our Savior?? Absolutely..consider (Acts2:42,Rom 6:17, 2Jhn 1:9-10) They certainly believed and taught the eternal security of the believer Jesus also, said; Jhn 14 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. And then John wrote these words for our exhortation; 1 Jhn 2 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Taught of God, are all those who have his Spirit within them, and are lead by Him. One could claim to possess the Spirit, but in denying what the Spirit teaches, could very well, call into question whether the perosn possess the Spirit, for to deny the very words of the Savior himself to to show a lack of a proper understanding of the Word of God, or a lack of the inward witness of the Spirit. Christians begin their walk with the Lord by faith and live by faith, so that it is by faith unto faith, not faith unto works. Blessings, Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: asaph on June 27, 2003, 09:34:48 PM Quote posted by asaph as reply #48 My observation: What did Jesus mean by this: John 6 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Asaph Are you a Universalist? I am not a Universalist. All will be taught but only those who hear and learn will come to Jesus. asaph Asaph, Being taught, doesn't end when one comes to Christ, for it is the Holy Spirit that continues to lead and teach, all believers. True, it is that there are; teachers in the the church, but, like the bereans which were more honorable than those from Thessalonica, all believers are to; "receive the word with all readiness of mind, and search the scriptures daily, whether those things be so." This is the way, we can prove all things, whether they be of God. Of course the title to this thread is why I make these points. Consider this passages; Gal 6 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For every man shall bear his own burden. 6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Is this only speaking of pastors or preachers?? The answer is NO, this is speaking of all believers.. At John 6:45, Jesus specifically states, that only those who have been taught by the Father "cometh to me" But, is this the end of the teaching of the doctrines of God??, nay,....... Isa 28 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Consider what Jesus said at; Jhn 7 16 ......, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. Was not the Apostles DOCTRINE, the same as taught to them by our Savior?? Absolutely..consider (Acts2:42,Rom 6:17, 2Jhn 1:9-10) They certainly believed and taught the eternal security of the believer Jesus also, said; Jhn 14 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. And then John wrote these words for our exhortation; 1 Jhn 2 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Taught of God, are all those who have his Spirit within them, and are lead by Him. One could claim to possess the Spirit, but in denying what the Spirit teaches, could very well, call into question whether the perosn possess the Spirit, for to deny the very words of the Savior himself to to show a lack of a proper understanding of the Word of God, or a lack of the inward witness of the Spirit. Christians begin their walk with the Lord by faith and live by faith, so that it is by faith unto faith, not faith unto works. Blessings, Petro Petro, I guess I am not following you. I agree with most of what you are saying. But what does that have to do with the fact that God works in peoples hearts before they are believers? Not all people whom God teaches will necessarily come to Jesus. Some will resist the Holy Spirit even as those Stephen preached to. They were taught of God but did not hear or learn from Him. Therefore they did not come to Jesus. Act 7:51 You stubborn and hardheaded people! You are always fighting against the Holy Spirit, just as your ancestors did. Act 7:52 Is there one prophet that your ancestors didn't mistreat? They killed the prophets who told about the coming of the One Who Obeys God. And now you have turned against him and killed him. Act 7:53 Angels gave you God's Law, but you still don't obey it. Act 7:54 When the council members heard Stephen's speech, they were angry and furious. Act 7:55 But Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit. He looked toward heaven, where he saw our glorious God and Jesus standing at his right side. Act 7:56 Then Stephen said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right side of God!" Act 7:57 The council members shouted and covered their ears. At once they all attacked Stephen Act 7:58 and dragged him out of the city. Then they started throwing stones at him. The men who had brought charges against him put their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul. Act 7:59 As Stephen was being stoned to death, he called out, "Lord Jesus, please welcome me!" Act 7:60 He knelt down and shouted, "Lord, don't blame them for what they have done." Then he died. So you see, they had the best Sunday School lesson available; they were all taught of God but they covered their ears and murdered an innocent man. This is what religious people do. They neither hear nor learn. Look at the context of Jesus' words in John 6. Joh 6:44 No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day. Joh 6:45 One of the prophets wrote, "God will teach all of them." And so everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him will come to me. The issue is whether they come to Jesus or not. His audience was very religious yet most rejected Jesus even after being taught line upon line as it says in another place: 1Co 14:21 In the Scriptures the Lord says, "I will use strangers who speak unknown languages to talk to my people. They will speak to them in foreign languages, but still my people won't listen to me." Anyway this is how I see it, plain and simple. asaph Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: DareDevil on July 12, 2003, 07:45:43 PM Calvinist believe God creates some people to be lost...predetermines to be lost....forces them to sin....does not permit them to repent....THEN TORTURES THEM FOR ALL ETERNITY...AS PUNISHMENT FOR SINS ...WHICH GOD FORCES THEM TO COMMIT !
Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Ralph on August 11, 2003, 05:38:46 PM Asaph: There are Scriptural, bonafide ways to assure oneself of being in a right relationship with God. Those ways which Scripture states are evidences for it apply equally to ALL whether Arminian or Reformed. 1 John is a good place to begins looking at what the Bible itself has to say about it. I believe John wrote it primarily for that reason. Read it and see if you don't agree with me. There are other evidences which are given--the Holy Spirit within us is to us an earnest of our inheritance; Jesus said that He would manifest Himself to us; that is, our fellowship that we have with Him is a comforting and sweet confirmation. I would not dare say this
short listing covers all the ways that He confirms His love to us. All of the VALID ways are much better than the Arminians: God said it, I believe it, and that settles it way. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Left Coast on August 22, 2003, 02:22:47 AM Calvinist believe God creates some people to be lost
_________________________________ No they do not believe that. Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. All mankind is lost. Totally and completely lost. God does not predestinate any to go to hell. Every one lives under the wrath of God unless God chooses to rescue them. Salvation is a rescue, we are hopelessly lost. Spiritually we are dead. The dead don’t hear, The dead don’t think, and the dead don’t believe. But just as Jesus called out Lazarus from the tomb He calls us to salvation. When He calls we move. Just as He gave Lazarus a new life he gives us a new life. Do you recognize how the heart is involved with our salvation? We can’t believe with all our heart because our heart is totally depraved. Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Notice the heart is deceitful. Many a person thought they knew their own heart and believed themselves to be saved but they were not. God gives us a new heart. Our salvation happens when God has changed our heart, We become born again. Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezekiel 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Because we have a new heart we can test our salvation. Everyone will sin, but a believer finds no pleasure in sin. A believers desire is to remove sin from their life. It is this desire we can use to test our salvation. We need to look at ourselves honestly and often. 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Many people who have claimed Jesus as Lord, and have believed themselves saved will find, in the end, that they never were saved, they preferred sin over the law of God. Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. From these verses in Matthew we can see that many people believing themselves faithful to God were not. So what is the test? 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. When we become saved it is our greatest desire and pleasure to obey and serve The Lord. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on August 22, 2003, 10:09:08 AM The fact is God never created people to be lost, the opposite is true, all woulkd be saved. However, because of Adams transgression all die. Jesus, died for the sins of the world, the scriptures declare, but there are many who love darkness rather than light, because their deed are evil; they reject the grace offered to whomsoever will come. All are born dead in sin and tresspass, there are none who seek after God, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We judge that if one died for all, then all are dead. Only those who believe Gods words, will ever be made alive. Blessings, Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Left Coast on August 22, 2003, 10:43:01 AM The fact is God never created people to be lost, the opposite is true, all woulkd be saved.
However, because of Adams transgression all die. __________________________________________ That is a very good point Petro. The man God created had no sin in him. But because of Adams transgression man is polluted, the seed of sin is in every man. Before we are saved we are counted among the wicked. And the wicked go astray as soon as they are born. Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Psalms 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; This is one of the main problems with the grace plus works gospels. There can be no salvation for babies unless they add to the bible what it does not say, an age of accountability. The word “all” is a very changing word in the bible. It does not always mean every single person. In the bible the word “all” can refer to all people or it can refer to all of a certain group of people. For instance, to every one: Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; And references to a limited group of people: Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. This cannot be ALL of the people of Judaea, there would have been close to two million people there at that time. Certainly not all of the Pharisees and Sadducees would have been there. Charles Spurgeon preached a sermon on this: ..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption) I’ve had four children. They are pretty much grown now but I still remember, there is no way a baby could believe on Jesus Christ. If salvation is based on our believing how would a baby become saved? Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: DareDevil on August 22, 2003, 09:52:22 PM Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Notice the heart is deceitful. Many a person thought they knew their own heart and believed themselves to be saved but they were not. God gives us a new heart. Our salvation happens when God has changed our heart, We become born again. Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezekiel 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; From these verses in Matthew we can see that many people believing themselves faithful to God were not. So what is the test? 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. When we become saved it is our greatest desire and pleasure to obey and serve The Lord. Quote OK, now you having said all that...let me ask you....Do you observe the 7th day Sabbath as found in Exodus 20:8-11 ?As this is the 'sign' between God and his true followers, (Ezekiel 20:12,20). The 'saints' of God....found in Revelation 14:12 are Sabbath keepers as well as keeping all "the commandments of God, and...have the faith of Jesus". Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Left Coast on August 22, 2003, 10:05:48 PM No I could never do that. The seventh day sabbath was fulfilled by Christ.
Notice there is no work we can do to become saved just as there was no work to be done on the seventh day sabbath. God changed the sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. Unfortunately most bible translations get this wrong. But you can check it yourself with a concordance or an interlinear bible. The sabbath was changed when Mary Magdalene went to the sepulcher after Jesus was crucified. Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. The word “sabbath” and the phrase “day of the week” come from the exact same Greek word, sabbaton sab’-bat-on. My computer version of Strong’s concordance gives a shortened definition, however in the book version it is identified as a plural word. Young’s Literal Translation of the bible is the only translation of the bible I know of that gets it right: Matthew 28:1 ¶ And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre, Read this as: at the end of the Saturday sabbaths as we begin the first of the Sunday sabbaths… Remember the sabbath breaker? He was gathering sticks. Gods commandment: Stone him to death. Numbers 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Most teachers today teach that you must do something to get yourself saved. You must be a member of a certain church, or you must give all your money or time. Maybe water baptism is required. Most today claim you must make a freewill decision. Perhaps you have to come forward and confess with your lips. These are works gospels. God is the only one that does any work. We can do nothing to get ourselves saved. We can plead with God for mercy. We can read the bible and we can repent of our sins, but nothing we do guarantees salvation. Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Unclean food, new moon holydays, and the sabbath days all pointed to Jesus. He fulfilled them so we do none of them anymore. While the Saturday sabbath was a day of no work, The Sunday sabbath is to be a day of spiritual work. Get the gospel out, visit the sick, meet with fellow believers, etc. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: ollie on August 22, 2003, 10:59:51 PM Quote Most teachers today teach that you must do something to get yourself saved. You must be a member of a certain church, or you must give all your money or time. Maybe water baptism is required. Most today claim you must make a freewill decision. Perhaps you have to come forward and confess with your lips. These are works gospels. God is the only one that does any work. We can do nothing to get ourselves saved. We can plead with God for mercy. We can read the bible and we can repent of our sins, but nothing we do guarantees salvation. Revelation 22:14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.1 John 2:3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him 6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: John the Baptist on August 22, 2003, 11:36:32 PM No I could never do that. The seventh day sabbath was fulfilled by Christ. Notice there is no work we can do to become saved ****** But The ISSUE IS, are [you] Born Again? If there is No Law, Then there is NO BORN AGAIN PERSON! Acts 5:32's 'OBEDIENCE' REQUIRES THE ROYAL [LAW] OF GOD! And Christ requires: "[IF] YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS"! The Sabbath is right in the 'midst' of the TEN! See James 2:8-12 for the standard of [IF] you are saved or not! ONE THAT DOES NOT [LOVE THE MASTER] WILL NEVER BE SAVED IN THAT LOVELESS CONDITION!! See 2 John 2:4 And you just MUST NOT HAVE READ Rev. 12:17 very good? For it states WHOSE THESE COMMANDMENTS THAT WE ARE TO KEEP [ARE FROM!] (COMMANDMENTS OF GOD!!) And that [IS] THE TESTIMONY (EPISTLE) OF CHRIST! 2 Cor. 3:3---SEE WHY HE CAME in Isa. 42:21? To obliterate His Sabbath you say? That would be 2 Peter 2:21-22's Vomit. Not LOVE! :'( :'( And these ones had not even came up to the level of the 'SICKENING LUKEWARM SPEWED OUT ONES LOVE' of Rev. 3:16-17 CHRIST SAYS. ---END: of John's verses ******************* just as there was no work to be done on the seventh day sabbath. God changed the sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. Unfortunately most bible translations get this wrong. But you can check it yourself with a concordance or an interlinear bible. The sabbath was changed when Mary Magdalene went to the sepulcher after Jesus was crucified. Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. The word “sabbath” and the phrase “day of the week” come from the exact same Greek word, sabbaton sab’-bat-on. My computer version of Strong’s concordance gives a shortened definition, however in the book version it is identified as a plural word. Young’s Literal Translation of the bible is the only translation of the bible I know of that gets it right: Matthew 28:1 ¶ And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre, Read this as: at the end of the Saturday sabbaths as we begin the first of the Sunday sabbaths… Remember the sabbath breaker? He was gathering sticks. Gods commandment: Stone him to death. Numbers 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Most teachers today teach that you must do something to get yourself saved. You must be a member of a certain church, or you must give all your money or time. Maybe water baptism is required. Most today claim you must make a freewill decision. Perhaps you have to come forward and confess with your lips. These are works gospels. God is the only one that does any work. We can do nothing to get ourselves saved. We can plead with God for mercy. We can read the bible and we can repent of our sins, but nothing we do guarantees salvation. Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Unclean food, new moon holydays, and the sabbath days all pointed to Jesus. He fulfilled them so we do none of them anymore. While the Saturday sabbath was a day of no work, The Sunday sabbath is to be a day of spiritual work. Get the gospel out, visit the sick, meet with fellow believers, etc. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Left Coast on August 22, 2003, 11:55:25 PM Revelation 22:14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 1 John 2:3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him 6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. If we have been saved it is because God has changed our heart: Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezekiel 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Because we have a new heart we can test our salvation. Everyone will sin, but a believer finds no pleasure in sin. A believers desire is to remove sin from their life. It is this desire we can use to test our salvation. We need to look at ourselves honestly and often. 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. It is only after God has given us a new heart that we can keep His commandment to believe. 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on August 23, 2003, 12:10:34 AM Quote Most teachers today teach that you must do something to get yourself saved. You must be a member of a certain church, or you must give all your money or time. Maybe water baptism is required. Most today claim you must make a freewill decision. Perhaps you have to come forward and confess with your lips. These are works gospels. God is the only one that does any work. We can do nothing to get ourselves saved. We can plead with God for mercy. We can read the bible and we can repent of our sins, but nothing we do guarantees salvation. Revelation 22:14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.1 John 2:3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him 6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Ollie, I didn't see your usual disclaimer, are you teaching again, that one must keep the commandments to be saved? Or are you agreeing with the scriptures that the saved will keep the commandments?? You would be a rich man if you got a nickel for every time you quoted Rec 22:14, and 3:22, and 1 Jhn 2:3. Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Left Coast on August 23, 2003, 12:35:10 AM John
You’re a bit of a different story. You seem somewhat confused. Being born again does not mean keeping Gods laws. If you read my previous post you’ll see that salvation depends on God making us into an entirely different creature. That is what it means to be born again. None of us ever contributed any thing to our birth we didn’t get our parents together we didn’t tell God, “why don’t you send me to that family,” we contributed nothing to our birth on this earth. God uses this concept of birth as another way to explain the change he makes to us: John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Many people today claim that they are born again believers but they don’t know what that really means. They feel they are born again because they chose to be. You cannot choose to be born. It is important to understand the meaning of the word water in verse 5. Many people feel that water baptism is a requirement for salvation. Again that would be a work. And again such a gospel would not be available to everyone, for instance someone on their deathbed or in a dungeon may not even have water available to them. The water spoken of in John 3:5 is not literal water. Water is a word that is often used in the bible to symbolize the Gospel. It is called parabolic language. Jesus spoke in parables. And many parables are clearly explained in the bible. Yet many parables have been left for us to search out. The understanding is always found in the bible. When John the Baptist was in the wilderness baptizing and Jesus came, he called Jesus a lamb. He wasn’t claiming Jesus was an animal this was parabolic language that Jesus would be the sacrifice for our sins. John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! Most believers understand this parabolic language is possible through an understanding of other verses in the bible: Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Going back to the water. Jesus spoke of this living water: John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. When saved we become witnesses for Christ. We want to tell people about the Lord. The gospel flows out of us. Genesis 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; The garden was in Eden. To irrigate you bring water in to your garden, you don’t remove water to irrigate your garden. Eden was not only a real place but it is also a picture of Heaven. As the gospel goes out into the world God uses it to change the hearts of those that He intends to save. This brings people in to heaven and so the garden grows. There are many other places in the bible that point to water as the gospel. One of my personal favorites is found in Numbers 20:11. This passage is very parabolic. (Jesus is the Rock). Concerning Gods commandments. The entire bible is Gods commandment. And so when God changed the sabbath day it was a commandment. If you choose to follow the seventh day sabbath then you are disobeying Gods commandment. John there is an old term from my college days; MELLOW OUT! ;D Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: John the Baptist on August 23, 2003, 01:10:47 AM Quote Most teachers today teach that you must do something to get yourself saved. You must be a member of a certain church, or you must give all your money or time. Maybe water baptism is required. Most today claim you must make a freewill decision. Perhaps you have to come forward and confess with your lips. These are works gospels. God is the only one that does any work. We can do nothing to get ourselves saved. We can plead with God for mercy. We can read the bible and we can repent of our sins, but nothing we do guarantees salvation. Revelation 22:14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.1 John 2:3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him 6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Quote ******* Aw friend, a breath of fresh air! The 'RICHES' IN THE WORD OF GOD! Matt. 4:4 (talent, dollars, and TALENTS!) You do know that you will hear from a few others?? .. 'Who [called His own servants] and [delivered unto them His goods]', Right? Matt. 14 Yet, even these must have understood that 'believing' was not enough, huh? All but ONE. For it seems that the verse 25 AFRAID ones need to sound like a broken record, I AM SAVED! I CAN'T FAIL! I AM ONCE SAVE & I AM ALWAYS SAVED!! NO WORKS THAT ARE REQUIRED FOR "ME" TO DEVELOPE A CHARACTER TO BE SAFE TO BE SAVED, I BELIEVE AND THAT IS ENOUGH!! "Then he that received the one talent came and said, Lord I knew that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: AND I WAS AFRAID], and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, here thou hast that is thine." And Surely Lord, I have been well taught that there is no way for me to need anything more that 'belief' in you! I have been saved! And [I have your goods & YOU have made me YOUR SERVANT!] (see Heb. 6:4-6) And BESIDES, THERE IS NO CONDITION TO SALVATION! And Lord I was [AFRAID] and just needed this one ($ talent?) hobbie horse to ride over & over again to convince [me] that I understood this I AM SAVED THING! And Lord, I REALLY HAVE COME TO BELIEVE IT...Right?? :'( [[[His Lord]]] answered and said unto him, THOU WICKED AND SLOUGHFUL MAN ... And CAST YE THE UNPROFITABLE [SERVANT] INTO OUTER DARKNESS: there shall be weeoing and gnashing of teeth." Thanks again Ollie for the excellent verses! In the Master's quickly finished work for the house of God first, (1 Peter 4:17) John Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Left Coast on August 23, 2003, 01:26:31 AM I really couldn't understand much of what you said John, are you saying our salvation is based on keeping Gods commandments?
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Keeping Gods commandments is a work. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: John the Baptist on August 23, 2003, 01:36:48 AM I really couldn't understand much of what you said John, are you saying our salvation is based on keeping Gods commandments? 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Keeping Gods commandments is a work. ++++++++++ A WORK??? Sin is BONDAGE! (a very heavy taskmaster!) A SAVED BORN AGAIN SAINT LOVES THE MASTER! "[IF] YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" No bondage there for the Born Again one! See 2 Cor. 3:3 Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Left Coast on August 23, 2003, 01:45:40 AM O.K.
Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: DareDevil on August 23, 2003, 07:49:10 PM The sabbath was changed when Mary Magdalene went to the sepulcher after Jesus was crucified. So, according to you Hebrews 4:8,9 is a lie ? Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Left Coast on August 24, 2003, 02:36:02 AM In Hebrews 4 God is showing that rest is the same as salvation in Christ. It supports the fact that sabbath was changed. Several different words are all translated rest.
So no, Hebrews 4 is not a lie don’t make assumptions it makes you sound ignorant and I don’t believe you are ignorant. Are you a Seventh Day Adventist? Was your church founded by a woman who had a vision? I really don’t have time to explain this any more. This week has been fun but I have to go back to work. Occasionally I’ll drop in but work takes me out of town and I won’t get much time off until Christmas, what a wonderful time of the year. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: DareDevil on August 24, 2003, 10:06:42 PM In Hebrews 4 God is showing that rest is the same as salvation in Christ. It supports the fact that sabbath was changed. are you a Seventh Day Adventist? Was your church founded by a woman who had a vision? Better reread Hebrews 4:8,9...Christ NEVER changed the Sabbath day. As to the SDA church....it is descrubed in Revelation 12: and Rev. 14:12......."HERE IS THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS...HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMETNS OF GOD..AND HAVE THE FAITH OF JESUS". No church that holds Sunday worship services fits that description....they fail the Bible test. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: ollie on August 25, 2003, 07:07:29 PM Quote Leftcoast: Most teachers today teach that you must do something to get yourself saved. You must be a member of a certain church, or you must give all your money or time. Maybe water baptism is required. Most today claim you must make a freewill decision. Perhaps you have to come forward and confess with your lips. These are works gospels. God is the only one that does any work. We can do nothing to get ourselves saved. We can plead with God for mercy. We can read the bible and we can repent of our sins, but nothing we do guarantees salvation. Quote Ollie: Revelation 22:14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 1 John 2:3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him 6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Quote Petro: Ollie, ???I didn't see your usual disclaimer, Quote Petro: are you teaching again, that one must keep the commandments to be saved? The words of Christ are the commandments those in Christ keep in order to have the truth in themselves. The words of Christ are the commandments one must obey to receive salvation if unsaved. It is called the gospel. "Hear, believe, repent, confess Christ, be baptized, be faithful." If one does not abide in the words of Christ they will not see salvation.Quote Petro: Or are you agreeing with the scriptures that the saved will keep the commandments?? The saved through faith will keep the words of Christ which are His commandments. The unsaved that hear and believe the words of Christ as given through the Holy Spirit start keeping the commandments of Christ by obeying the gospel and being fathful in and to His word.The point to all this is the saved and unsaved have to do His commandments to find salvation. The quoted scriptures say this. Repent is an example of a commandment for the unsaved and the saved. Part of the initial process in Coming to Christ and remission of sin is repentance, which is turning away from sin. Part of the process of the saved state is repenting and asking for forgiveness of sin committed after being saved. Being saved does not keep one from sinning, but one is sure supposed to rely on Christ and his word in preventing it and try to keep from it by keeping His word, (commandments). Quote Petro: You would be a rich man if you got a nickel for every time you quoted Rec 22:14, and 3:22, and 1 Jhn 2:3. My riches are in Jesus Christ. Quote Petro In Christian Love, Ollie Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on August 27, 2003, 12:04:05 AM Ollie,
Quote posted by ollie as reply # 70 The words of Christ are the commandments those in Christ keep in order to have the truth in themselves. The words of Christ are the commandments one must obey to receive salvation if unsaved. It is called the gospel. "Hear, believe, repent, confess Christ, be baptized, be faithful." If one does not abide in the words of Christ they will not see salvation. On the contrary, Jesus, never made the claims you attribute to Him. He did say; Jhn 12 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. Jhn 14 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. And again, Mat 10 40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. The words Jesus spoke which must be observed are words God the Father put in His mouth to speak to men in His name, these words are ther commandments of God. The Commandments Jesus gave to the disciples, especially the apostles, are not for salvation, at all. You confuse the two. God's commands must be observed for slavation, this is clear in the teaching of the Law of Moses, but Jesus fulfilled the Law, and abolished the law of sin and death (referring to the Law of Moses, Rom8:1-4)in His flesh. Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on August 28, 2003, 01:06:53 AM In Hebrews 4 God is showing that rest is the same as salvation in Christ. It supports the fact that sabbath was changed. are you a Seventh Day Adventist? Was your church founded by a woman who had a vision? Better reread Hebrews 4:8,9...Christ NEVER changed the Sabbath day. As to the SDA church....it is descrubed in Revelation 12: and Rev. 14:12......."HERE IS THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS...HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMETNS OF GOD..AND HAVE THE FAITH OF JESUS". No church that holds Sunday worship services fits that description....they fail the Bible test. daredevil, There is another day spoken, whereby the people of God will find rest, that day is the spoken of by Jesus in; Mk 2 27 ........The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:]/color] 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. And according to the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews; Heb 4 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. Its not the OT sabbath day it is another day, which we await with patience. Note carefully verse 8, above, Jesus himself labors in the heavenlies today, ministering in that tabernacle not made with human hands to this day (Heb 8:1-20), interceding for His people (all those whom God the father has given to Him) against the accusations of the evil one who accuses the brethern day and night before the throne of God (Rev 12:10), thius is why the scriptures speak mof another day of rest,m when the captain of our salvatiuon will himself rest from his duties as our great high priest. Again note these words the apostle Peter says to us; 2 Pet 2 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath showed me. 15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: This clearly speaks of another day, not the OT sabbath day. This is why we observe the first day of the week in rememberance of His resurrection, until the of the Lord come. Petro Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Left Coast on August 30, 2003, 11:42:13 AM It has been several years since I looked into the sabbath day. I’ve had to do a bit of a review. I made some errors in what I’ve said previously. When I had first heard this information I chose to check it out, I would recommend that you do the same.
Ideally you should have a Greek interlinear bible. Strong’s concordance is somewhat helpful, Young’s concordance is only a little better and if you can find a Thayer’s lexicon and wade through it, it will help in defining the plural words. The interlinear bible that I used was my wife’s she took it with her when she moved out 7 years ago. However I did find an interlinear tied to Strong’s on the internet. http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm Under the field ‘search in’ - find ‘Greek/English Interlinear’ next; type sabbath as a search term and you will get 55 entries. You will find that all of them except one entry (Mark 15:42) is identified as the same Strong’s number, #4521. They are different words though as you will soon see. In Mark 15:42 it is Strong’s #4315 a compound word. 4315 prosabbaton {pros-ab'-bat-on} from 4253 and 4521;; n n AV - day before the sabbath 1; 1 1) the day before the sabbath Now go down to Matthew 28:1. Highlight the Greek word identified as #4521. Copy it then paste it into the search field. You will get 11 entries not 54. Now you will find that this Greek word 'sabbatwn' is often mistranslated as ‘week’. It is properly translated as a plural word only once, Luke 4:16. Thayer’s Lexicon identifies the last two letters, ‘wn’, as making it a plural word. There is a word often translated as a plural, sabbaths, 'sabbasin'. If you do a word search of this you will get 14 entries. The word ‘sabbaton’ only appears 14 times even though it is the word defined in Strong’s #4521. I would hope that you would question not only what I tell you but also question your church. Question yourself. If you question and are willing to put aside pride you will find a whole new world in God’s word. I can’t repeat enough how much I missed because my pride kept me from God’s truths. I pray that God will give me the eyes to see and the ears to hear. Because if He doesn’t then I cannot know the truth. Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, If you know of any way to explain Matthew 28:1 and all of the other passages dealing with this event I would like to know the explanation. Matthew 28:1 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre, Young’s Literal Translation Matthew 28:1 But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave. Green’s Literal Translation I find it very unusual that none of our popular bible got this right. Perhaps God allowed this for His own purpose: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: God changed the sabbath day and if you do not follow the new sabbath then you are not keeping Gods commandment. The SDA church was founded by a woman who had a vision. A woman is not to teach or have authority over men concerning spiritual things. 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Title: Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? Post by: Petro on August 31, 2003, 12:10:33 AM Left Coast,
Thanks for the info. There was one other thing that need sto be said, here. The Sabbath is mentioned in the book of Acts only in connection with the Jews, together with the rest of the NT, except for two places (Col2:16 and Heb 4:4) In both of these passages the seventh day Sabbath is explained to be, not a day to be observed by Christians, but a type of the present rest into which the believer will enter when "he also ceases from his own works" and "trusts Christ." It is clear in Romans 10, that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Gentiles where never expected to keep the Mosaic Law, since we (I am a gentile), were outside the promises of God; ...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (Eph 2:12) It is clear that anyone who wants to keep the Sabath, still remains in sin, since they have not entered in rest in Jesus, as they labor to keep the Law, yet; the scriptures are clear; That Jesus is the end to the law, to everyone who believes, since He; ............he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; (Eph 2:14-15) And for this reason all Christians, live unto another law; the law of FAITH (Rom 3:26-27) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 3:28) [bFor sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Rom 6:14) Rom 8 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. So, here is a warning to them that insist that the Sabath must be kept, listen carefully; For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.Rom 3:5-8 You think, you, need to keep the law, (evidenced by insisting the sabbath must be observed in order to be saved), however according to verse 7, above which speaks of you, and states clearly that you are carnally minded, and this is emnity against God, because you refuse to subject yourself to the law of God (the Law of Faith, which is a higher Law, than the Law of Sin and Death) by virtue of Jesus's better sacrifice.. This idea is a stumbling block to you and others, besides you teach a faith-works gosple. Which will bring on death. You need to repent, and cease your carnal teachings. Petro |