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Have you guys heard about this? What do you think?

Canada suicide hotline to open only from 9 to 5

TORONTO, May 25 (Reuters) - A Canadian province will shut its 24-hour suicide hotline and replace it with one that operates only during business hours.

Prince Edward Island, a small province on Canada's East Coast, says it is too expensive to operate the hotline around the clock. Starting June 1, it will be open only between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m., Monday through Friday.

The plan drew protest from mental health groups across the country on Wednesday.

"How many times, when you get upset or worried or concerned about things, is it in the middle of the day? It's usually at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning when you wake up," said Joan Wright, executive director of the Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention based in Edmonton, Alberta.

The hotline received about 1,400 calls a year and about 50 were from people contemplating suicide, health groups said.

"One of the things I was hearing is the government felt there weren't enough suicide-related calls," Wright said.

Prince Edward Island, Canada's smallest province with a population of about 137,000 people, is trying to tame its budget deficit. The hotline cost about C$30,000 ($24,000) a year to run.

"It's a very small amount of money in our view," said Reid Burke, executive director of the Canadian Mental Health Association.

"(Given) the economic cost of a suicide, if governments pay attention to dollars and numbers, not what happens to people, it just doesn't make sense."


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050526/od_nm/canada_suicide_dc (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050526/od_nm/canada_suicide_dc)
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N25220780.htm (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N25220780.htm)

Canada is a socialist society, so this makes since to the ruling “majority� (yea –right) of Canadians.

Liberal-humanist's agree that euthanasia is a fair reality.  If someone is so useless to society as to seek suicide, then to the hunanists, it is no different than darwin's "thinning of the herd".  This is simply 'natural selection' - with of course, the liberal humanist's as the 'natural predators' (the elite who determine who lives and who "dies").  The humanists are up to the job – if you don’t believe me just ask them.  

It’s the same in the US - Terrie Schiavo:  useless to the socialist agenda therefore better dead.

May God have mercy on the souls of those who believe they have the power of Him.

Whereas the central Christian theme is to save lives (beginning with your own) the central theme of humanism is to get rid of the worthless to make room for the worthwhile.  

To us as Christians, the lives of the “yet-to-be-out-of-the-womb-humanâ€� are just as important as the “20-year-olds-who-we-must-stop-from-killing-themselvesâ€� as the “85-year-olds-whose-contributions-of-wisdom-cannot-be-replacedâ€�.  

Yeah, they take their Socialism from England... don't get me started... >:( I hate Socialism and all the Post-Modernist philosophy that is it based on.  >:( >:( >:(

The people who answered the phones at the suicide hotline are trained volunteers.

Please use another example to criticize the Canadian government.  

What are you tryign to say?  ???

If a Canadian in Canada attempts suicide, they will be rushed by ambulance to an emergency hospital room, receive emergency treatment which will be followed up with in hospital care and out-patient care all:  FREE of charge.

Depressed Canadians in Canada can go to their doctor and receive counselling and medication, referrals to psychiatrists and other health professionals all:  FREE of charge.  

The suicide hotlines are answered by trained volunteers.  The government funding is for facilities and other expenses.  If the hotline centers were properly run, they would keep accurate records of when and who calls for assistance.  Hopefully the volunteers would not be just sitting there bored, chatting to their friends, but helping to save lives.  If the hotlines do not receive government funding for the center, the space/facilities could be donated or funds raised by charity.

I disagree with the decision to only to run the hotlines during business hours since I would think that they would get the most calls at night.  But if their records show that no suicides were prevented or few calls were related to suicide, why not spend funds in a more helpful way.  The article in no way tries to indicate that the Canadian government wishes people to succeed at killing themselves.  In fact, they have many mental health programmes aimed at recognizing the signs of depression and urging people to seek treatment.  

It is a double tragedy to have a young woman finding herself pregnant and alone to seek suicide as a solution.  However, they are many places were depressed people can seek help besides suicide hotlines.  

Of the Canadians in Canada attempts suicide, and get rushed by ambulance to an emergency hospital room, receive emergency treatment which will be followed up with in hospital care and out-patient care all FREE of charge, how many of them are discovered my the Hotline? Canadian is not yet socialist enough to have brain scaner implanted that tell the hospital they need help, M. Help needs to be informed of the pantient in need before they can get them, and most of the helps knowledge comes from the hotline, which is not off during the hours when it is most needed.


How many Depressed Canadians in Canada go to their doctor and receive counselling and medication, referrals to psychiatrists and other health professionals all FREE of charge? Most people in the state of mind where they wish to commit suicide do not seek help. Most of them need to have help forced upon them. Becides, I don't know of ANY Doctors offices open before 9 or after 5. So we still have the same problem.

I realize suicide hotlines are answered by trained volunteers, but what does this have to do with anything? You keep saying that like is means something? What is wrong with volunteers?

No one ever said the article tries to indicate that the Canadian government wishes people to succeed at killing themselves.

I suggest you read all the replyies to this post again, carefully.  

Some simple mathematical calculations show that 1500 calls per year is an average of 4 calls per day (24 hr period).  50 calls were actually suicide related.  Other sources I had read show that 20% of suicide related calls are clergy or people calling about someone other than themselves.  That means an average of 40 calls per year were received from people that were suicidal.  Do you think that in an area where 137,000 people live, that cost of keeping the centre open is a good use of money?  (wait before forming a counter attack)

Not all depressed people are suicidal but the effects are felt by co-workers, family and friends of the victims of depression.  I think it would be more compassionate and a better use of money to educate people about depression and suicide.  These are the kinds of decisions that government has to make.  While suicide hotlines can effective in preventing deaths and suffering, PEI might better use their limited resources.

I said "I disagree with the decision to only to run the hotlines during business hours since I would think that they would get the most calls at night."   What can't you understand about that opinion?

The other person posting had the opinion that "socialist" governments, like the ones in Canada, are humanist and have no interest in compassion.  This is truly and completely false.  Canada's health system is compassion and accessible to all citizens.   In fact, abortion is not available on the island of PEI, Canada.  

As an emergency services worker, you will encounter people who will refuse treatment when the ambulance arrives at the scene.  You will have to wait until they are unconscious to take them to the hospital.  

Depending on the laws, some doctors are allowed to commit someone against their will when they have threatened their own life or another persons.  There are doctor's available 24 hrs.  Most of the problem is that family and friends need to recognize the signs and symptoms of depression.  They also need to know what to do when someone talks about killing themselves.  

I find your replies extremely rude, and even amusing.  

"Canadian (Canada) is not yet socialist enough to have (a) brain scaner (scanner) implanted that tell the hosptial they need help"  

Why not use the artice as an opportunity to educate and express compassion about suicide and depression?

Mathematical calculations, exactly, that is the problem.  The Post-Modernists LOVE to limit human limit to a number, a stat. We are much more then that, my friend. The calculations are correct, but your philosophy could use a little work. What does a human life cost, M? What is it worth to you? Can you give me a calculation for that?



I understood that from the first post. What I don't understand is why you say you agree, then try to debate. Why are you making excuses for the Canadian Government?



Well, that is socialism for you. The give a little help to people, but as a whole, they are only interested in the mathematical calculations in the end.



Not in America. That is called Kidnapping. If they are unconscious when we get there, the applied consent rule is in effect, and we can treat them. However, if the parents is conscious, and refuse kid, and are of sound mind, we can't do a thing. All we can do it try to talk them into going, explaining what they may have, and how it may hurt them, etc. People have a right to refuse care.



I'm not to such about the Psychological industries laws in America, but I think they can do this as well.



Well, then, sorry for being rude, and your welcome for the amusement. I don't know why they where either, but ok... ::)



Ooohhhh, I see you found a few typo's. Good for you. Thanks for the correction. Would you like me to correct yours for you? You have a few errorsm as well. I have a coding disorder, what's your excuse? ;)  I await your "replyies." Maybe you can write a whole "artice" next time about it. :P ;D

Let's not get into personal attacks people.

Since they are worried about the costs of things, I am sure that they can get enough volunteers to cover the phones. There is no need for a building center so their overhead would be quite low. One phone/phones could be set up with call forwarding to the volunteers phone lines. This would bring the cost of this program down tremendously and still keep it in action.

That’s what we are trying to say, it is not that expensive to run something like you mention, and even if it is, and even if the place only saves one life a month, can we really put a price on that life?

I agree with you, Tibby. We cannot place a value on human life. It is the point that I tried to make with you on another thread. (Did I get through?)   :) :)

If there is a money crunch, which there sometimes is, there is always a way to get around that and keep viable programs working. Saving even one life is always a viable, worthwhile program.

My point was not that human life isn't important in that last post, my point was... nevermind (not again) ;D

Socialize Healthcare is about the nubmers, not the people, and that is the problem with Socialize Healthcare: Healthcare should be about the people! Some of these American are always talking about how great Socialize Healthcare, but I'd love to see them try and get open heart in Canada or England. ::)

As a general point Tibby, I think you should perhaps try and learn a little about a topic before you begin to spew your opinions.  Your posts, on this topic anyway, seem to be based more on your rabid ideologies, and what you think you know, rather than any truth.

Your comment about "open heart", about which I can only assume you mean open heart surgery, betrays this tendency. The fact is, Canadians have full access to some of the most gifted cardiologists in the world, who perform flawless bypasses on a daily basis.  I'm really not sure where you are getting your ideas, but they certainly not based on any fact.

cheers,

Jimmy

The Canadian health system, while not perfect, does work.  It is quite fair for all Canadians.  

The system is set up so that all Canadians, regardless of where they live or their income have reasonable access to health care that they need.  There are some problems in accessing health care in remote and underpopulated regions, such as the Arctic.   Where there are no roads, everything has to be flown in or out by bush plane.  There are some waits for non-emergency surgery but people are getting what they need.  Toronto, for example, has many excellent hospitals.  The children's hospital in Toronto is excellent and gives equal treatment for all children regardless of their family income.  It does work and that is because Canadians want it to work.  Perhaps Americans do not think this type of system would work in their country because they already have so much greed and corruption in their present health care system and they are so used to having their politicians lie to them.  

Well M, gonna hit ya where you hit Tibby. Better do some research on that great healthcare. I went through it here in Ontario.

I had a major breakdown (won't go into details) 3 years ago, and after the ambulance came and picked me up, (I was unconscious), I waited in the hallway of the hospital for 5 hours on a stretcher.

You see, this great health care system shut down many ICUs, and the hospital in my hometown had to wait for an opening elsewhere. So, while I was possibly dying in that hallway, (my wife says I turned the color of gray), I was just a number waiting for another number to allow me to receive treatment.

Eventually, (5 hours later), I arrived at a hospital 30 miles from my hometown.

Kinda gets ya to thinking doesn't it? You could be dying, but you can't receive proper treatment until there's room for you.

So I wouldn't be holding the Canadian health care system up as a model to anyone in this world. People die unnecessarily under this system.

Oh, and as far as those wonderful bypasses that happen daily go, ever consider the waiting list for them? Ever consider how long someone has to wait to get it done? Ever think that some actually die while waiting for an opening?

While we do have some excellent talent, we don't have enough of it. And a significant reason for that is the cost cutting that went on when the fed downloaded the health care costs to the provinces.

Plus those talented individuals will only do their work in large centres like Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver. It's a money thing, don't ya know.

Lastly, every thing in this system is NOT free. And every year the provinces are looking to download more and more treatments to the people.

I happen to know an American woman who has a disability and many chronic health problems.  She has a part-time job.  While she has whatever the public insurance is, she can not find a doctor that will take her health insurance.  She lives in the New York City area.  She was quite amazed that people in Canada could go to "walk-in clinics" and see a doctor.  

So much for Christian mercy.  Yes, it is about money.  

Do you really resent paying taxes so that poor people, children and the disabled can go to see a doctor?

If you do have to go to emergency again, try to get a family member to phone your family doctor.  If your family doctor phones or faxes the emergency department, he/she can give them important information about your medical conditions.  Otherwise, you might have to wait longer for tests to be done.  Emergency departments work on a triage system.  It is not first come, first served.  They treat the most critical cases first.  

There are hundreds of experienced foreign trained doctors living in Canada who are not allowed to practice.  Plus many Canadian trained doctors will go to United States from Canada to practice: some for more money, some for experience.  Often they return.  Yes, there does seem to be more doctors in the larger cities.  Some communities organize buses or carpools to transport people to their appointments once a week.  Some specialists often fly in to northern communities to see patients once a month.  Just because a health insurance scheme is public, does not mean that the people do not have a say in how it should be run.  Many communities have worked hard to raise money to build their hospitals and they should be able to keep them open.  Some communities even top up a salary to keep doctors and their local emergency open.  

Do not be fooled.  For profit insurance companies and hospitals are run FOR PROFIT.  

M - you say that like it's a bad thing.  

I want a rich American doctor who lives in a big expensive house.  He is rich because he is very, very good at what he does.  

It is against the law in the United States for an emergency room to turn away a patient.  Everyone gets healthcare.  Those of us who can pay pay for all – but that’s okay – I don’t want a bunch of dead bodies piling up in the streets.  :-X

Socialism begets apathy.  That’s why socialism has always and will always fail.  

“But having the sense of a job well done is reward enough” some say.  Hogwash.  Growing the best wheat so you can trade for the best chickens; that’s a basic free market ideal.  When a socialist government gets involved, they take the wheat and give you back whatever they see fit.  Everyone gets the same chicken no matter how hard they work.  So why work?  Why improve?  Why work hard and sweat?  At the end of the day, all you have is a skinny chicken.

Now – what a chicken has to do with the subject at hand, I haven’t a clue.   ;D

JN

Hi JN,

As a point of order, I'm not entirely sure where you are going with your comment: "That’s why socialism has always and will always fail."

Are you suggesting that Canada is a failed state? Or, perhaps nations such as Sweeden, Norway, Finland or other Scandanavian countires, that are annulay named as the best places in the world to live, are in some way failing their people?  

cheers,

Jimmy

Greetings Mr. Swift,
You list no countries that are pure socialist governments; that is, countries who "redistribute" the wealth.  

The USSR is the most recent example of failure.  It failed from within (with the Gippers help :) ) for exactly the reason I stated: apathy.  Do you know anyone (other than socialist liberals  :-X) who believe Cuba is a gem of a society?  Good ol' Fidel - what a guy.

There are very few pure socialist states these days, which is both a blessing and a curse.  A curse because those who are blind to history are trying it again.  

I suppose my biggest beef with socialism, is that the subjects are basically required to replace God with government.  The American liberals' utopia depends on "pure" socialism. That's a nation killer.  

As far as Canada, New Zealand and other countries who are tipping the scales more to the socialist side, I do believe they are in decline.  Why?  Apathy.

God bless and take care, Jimmy,

JN

The USSR and Cuba bordered on the edge of being a communist government not just socialists. Much of their policies were/are communistic.

The U.S. went through a transformation from a republic to a democracy and is now headed toward socialism. Many of our laws are socialistic even now.

(http://www.grayoak.com/images/Zits.JPG)

Hi Judge Not,

I'm going to have to ask you for something of an explaination regarding your claim that Canadians are somehow apathetic.  This seems to suggest that you hold an enlightened world view, and those silly backwards Canadians just don't understand.  I really think that you are selling an entire group of highly educated and opinionated people short with such a claim.

"Apathy" is one of the most ambiguous words that one can use these days, and so I was curious to know what you mean when you use it to describe the millions of people who live in G8 and other economically and politically advanced nations that "tip to the socialist side"

cheers,

Jimmy

I never said that.  Show me where I said that. Don't put words in my mouth and don't attribute ideas to me that I don't think. I said SOCIALISM BEGETS apathy.


I never said that.  Show me where I said that.  Show me where I said I think I am "enlightened".  Don't pull that liberal crap on me.  I never suggested that.  Show me where I suggested that. Don't put words in my mouth, and don't attempt to convence yourself that I have "ideas" that I don't think.  That is another liberal waste of our "collective" time.

I don't sell people.  I'm not in that business. People, as well as ideologies, sell themselves - for good or for bad.

Hmmm. "Ambiguous"? How so?  Give me some examples. I guess I'm too stupid - that crack went right over my head.

 LOL! G8 means nothing to me.  Jesus Christ and ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL mean something to me. God has given each and every man HIS given right to succeed.  Along with that right, comes the right to fail.  Where floors are built there are also ceilings. You would put a ceiling on man's God given right to succeed and take care of his family?  Fine.  I don't wish to be a part of that society.

FYI - Occupied California  (where I presently live but am attempting to claim political assylum to a right thinking state)is light-years ahead of Canada or any other semi-socialist nation when it comes to taking from the earners and giving to the unearners.  Forgive me if you felt I was singling out the northern socialists.

Had I known you were so liberally sensitive, I would never had engaged you in dialogue.  

Whether it is Canada, the U. S. or any other governement. When socialism creeps in apathy does step in. Apathy is a lack of interest or concern. In socialism there is a lack of interest in trying to improve ones self when there is no way that one can improve oneself.

Judgenot was not picking on Canadians when he made the statement that he did. He was talking of extreme socialist governments, not those that are moderately socialistic werein a person is still able to improve his living conditions. The more stringent the socialism the more apathy becomes apparent.

 ;D  

Humor and sarcasm hat on:

If the liberals want socialism, make sharecroppers out of them and let them have it.

Hi JN,

Thanks for your reply!

Did you learn how to debate from Bill O'Reily?

I'm very sorry if you felt I was putting words in your mouth, and that was certainly not my intention.  My post was really more trying to clairify what you were getting at with a few of your comments.

I quite politely asked you to explain why you felt Canadians were apathetic.  This question came from your comment: "As far as Canada, New Zealand and other countries who are tipping the scales more to the socialist side, I do believe they are in decline.  Why?  Apathy."

I feel that this sentence (which you wrote) begets my question in quite a direct manner. So, when I asked you why you felt Canadians were apathetic, I really don't think I was putting words in your mouth, and hopefully, I've now shown you where you said it.

As far as the world view comment, I just foud your wholesale dismissal of the countires you mentioned in your post as being "apathetic" a shade presumptious, thats all.

I assure you that I am not too "liberally sensitive" to use your cute term (I hope that's not putting words in your mouth)  I look forward to continuing out discussion on this matter.

Cheers,

Jimmy

PR,

Thanks for the reply!

I couldn't agree with you more.  When forms of hard-left socialism creep through the government doors, apathy, whatever we may take that to mean, often follows.

My problem with what Judge Not had to say about the topic, was that he lumped some very economically driven, and ambitious nations in whith his one fell swoop.

We would have had no quarell whatsoever, if the discussion had been centred around the former USSR or modern day China and Cuba.  It just seems as though the jump from free health care to apathy was made rather quickly and without precision.

Cheers,

Jimmy

Hey Jimmy -
In true "O'Reily fashion"  ::) I'll concede the last word to you.  :-X

God bless,
JN

Well, I'm not one to give up the last word, (LOL!), and since I'm Canadian, I qualify, don't ya think?

The apathy in Canada is not so much from Socialism or the such. Although the general feeling with Canadians is, "Why bother? You can't win a fight with the government."

Mind you, there ARE pockets of resistance, and that will always be the case. But I can see why the apathy exists because you just have to look at how easily the same sex marriage bill passed.

In days of yore, everyone who calls himself Christian would have parked on the doorstep of 24 Sussex Drive, (that's where all Prime Ministers must live), and let Mr. Martin know what they think of this filthy abomination. Of course, that should also have happened back in the early 60s when they voted prayer out of the schools.

No, Canada's problem is not the type of government. Rather, it's the failure of Christians to make sure that Jesus was continually lifted up from the earth. If we hadda done that, we might still be truly called a Christian nation. Now, we have become as Sodom, and like unto Gomorrah. And I think we know what's coming next.....

I'm sorry, I disagree with that...... If Canada is going to have a suicide hotline, it needs to be open 24/7/365.

DW,

As a point of order, "Canada" does have a suicide hotline.  In fact, "Canada" has many of them.  This particular story is related to the small island province of Prince Edward Island, which has a total population of less than 200,000.  

To think that this was the case everywhere, or even in most of the country would be false.

Cheers,

Jimmy