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“And I laid me down in that place to sleep:  And as I slept I dreamed a Dream.  I dreamed a dream, and behold:”

God: “Well, Mr. BW, I see you finally made it to the great white throne.”

Mr. BW: “Yes, Lord it is good to see you face to face.  You know direct access to thee has been pretty hard considering the church I belong to, you know with Mary, the saints and all that I have to go through to get to you.”

God: “Yes, I understand perfectly.”

Mr. BW: “I wish I could have come dressed a little better. I’m sorry for the rags I have on – I had such a nice set of clothes on before I got here but something seems to have happened on the way up – must have been a rough trip I guess.”

God: “No need to apologize for you are dressed quite appropriately for this occasion.”
Now, Mr. BW, now that you have my ear what do you have to say for yourself?”

Mr. BW: “Well, Lord, I’ve been a faithful son of the church for many a year; I’ve been sprinkled and baptized; I’ve partaken of the mass every time the doors were opened believing it was the literal body and blood of your son; confessed to my father….”

God: “Now, Mr. BW, we take Matt. 23:9 literally up here so, be careful.”

Mr. BW: “Well, you know Lord that is just a matter of interpretation.  What I meant was that I confess my sins to the holy priest…..”

God: “You mean, baalite priest, don’t you?

Mr. BW: “Oh, you just got that from that book of Protestant lies called “Two Babylon” by Alexander Hislop.  I can’t believe a man would print such mean and false facts…I mean, huh, misrepresentations of my religion!”

God: “You were saying, Mr. BW.”

Mr. BW: “Anyway, I’ve given faithfully, read my prayer book, prayed with my beads, read my bible…”

God: “You are right on that one, Mr. BW, that bible may be yours for it sure is not my Bible for it reads different than the one I wrote.”
 
Mr. BW: “Well, we have our bible and you have yours – every man has that right.”
God: “For the record would you mind giving me an explanation on where that one came from?”
Mr. BW: “Oh, yes, Lord, this bible came from the Vaticanus and Siniaticus manuscripts, you know the most ancient and reliable ones available!”

God: “And where did the scholars come up with these?”

Mr. BW: “Siniaticus was found in a monastery at the foot Mt. Sinai, you know, where Moses gave us the law.”

God: “Interesting that this manuscript is associated with the law.”

Mr. BW: “And Vaticanus was found a trash can in the library at St. Peters!”
God: “Well, they should have left it there.”

Mr. BW: “Oh no, Lord, this is where the new translations came from.”

God: “Yes, I know for I willed it to happen so as to help corrupt the body of Christ and create confusion so the one world religion and government could come into play in the last days. Now, Mr. BW, would you mind giving further light on this for the record.”

Mr. BW: “Yes, you see these manuscripts were snuck into the Revision Committee over in England in 1881.  The committee was duped, oh, I mean, convinced that because of their preservation on vellum scrolls that these were the oldest and most authentic manuscripts available. They called this the RV and then it went to America in 1901 and became the AV 1901 and after that it became the NASV, the RSV, Good News, Living Bible and finally that wonder of wonders, the NIV!  Amazing, now fundamentalists and Protestants are all reading Roman Catholic bibles and don’t even know it!  Oh goodie, goodie, goodie!!!”

God: “Yes, your church pulled off a good one there and I commend your church for it’s typical and though corruption of my word.  It is a shame that people think that all the new translations are just updates of the AV1611 and don’t know that the AV1611 came from a completely different set of manuscripts than all the new translations are built upon. Now back to your testimony.”

Mr. BW: “Oh, yes, well I’ve said many a vain repetitions as prayers, did good things for others, gave lots of money for charities, believed the church fathers, and well, basically when I became a convert I just pulled myself up by my own boot straps and here I am!”

God: “Mr. BW that is quite a personal testimony but where is my Son in all that?”

Mr. BW: “Oh, he is right next to me on my dresser hanging on the cross.  He is there every morning when I get up.”

God: “No I don’t mean how you see my son but what part did he play in your conversion?”
Mr. BW: “Oh, I believe he died for my sins, we all believe that, but we believe that Christ just opened the door and made the way possible so we can, by our good works, be made acceptable to you.  We, by faith, believe that you will accept our good works!  We are not like those others who trust your Son’s sacrifice alone for we believe Christ didn’t do enough and we want to help him out a bit.”

God: “Mr. BW you certainly put a lot of effort into your salvation but all I can say to you is, depart from me for I never knew you.  Now please stand aside for there is an angel waiting to throw you into a lake of fire.”

Mr. BW: “But Lord, what about him over there that deceived AVBunyan?”

God: “Well, AVBunyan, what do you have to say for your salvation?”

AVBunyan: “I am a poor sinner trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ alone.”

God: “You see, Mr. BW, how simple that was.  If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

God: “Now, Mr. BW, we have head enough, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

So I awoke, and behold it was a Dream

Note:  I know God will not have a conversation like the above but I trust you get what I am trying to illustrate.

A very wise man once said "never take personal offense at someone elses ignorance". I think that applies in this case.
  You have a wonderful day.

this is from another website, but i thought it was appropriate.

Another satisfied Catholic!

One of my readers writes:

When I converted to Catholicism, it was the statue worship that appealed to me the most, but banner worship has its appeal as well. Historians have been able to show that pagans also worshipped primitive banners so either one has authentic Catholic-pagan connections.

I also liked that I didn't have to read the Bible any more and that I would have to earn my way to Heaven. Besides that, I really appreciated the fact that I could check my brain at the door and blindly follow the leaders.

A really cool part of Catholicism is that now I can commit all of my favorite sins and then go to Confession right before I go out and do them again!! Actually, while I was Protestant, I guess I did that too, but without the Confession part. But sitting in that little room just feels so holy, especially with the statues nearby.

Then at Mass I usually get to listen to my favorite song, "On Eagles Wings" though I must admit I don't like it now as much as the first 67,000 times I heard it. The cannibalism aspect, I have to admit, grosses me out a little, but I comfort myself by knowing that it is a false doctrine anyway and so it is only really bread.

I know exactly how you feel. For me, it's the chance to worship Mary and adore her as the Creator of Almighty God that is so appealing. And, of course, I really love knowing that salvation is completely up to me and my righteousness apart from the grace of God. Also, the deep pride I feel in the Church's many Inquisitors, cold-blooded killers, persecutors, perverts and criminals was a big draw. Some people think this is problem, but I frankly have no idea what they are talking about. I am aware of no commands of God against these things because, of course, I never read the Bible.

Which reminds me: I just *love* adding absurd human traditions, myths and legends to the pure word of God. Also, I get a real kick out of enslaving myself to little rules and regulations so as to chain myself with fear and cut myself off from the love of God.

If *you're* an ignorant benighted Catholic like me, feel free to add your favorite spiritually crippling legend, lie, or practice to the pool. The more the merrier! That's what makes enslavement to the traditions of men and blindness to the saving gospel of Jesus Christ fun!
posted by Mark Shea at 5:16 PM


anti catholicism is like don quixote fighting windmills...

mike

I was once involved in the RCC...you nailed it! It did feel so "good" though didn't it. There was "God" on the alter! All the statues, the gold, the works!!! Wow! I remember working so hard, always trying...Sheesh!

It is so good to now be saved and free.

Right on, Bunyan! Catholics don't believe Christ's death is enough! They want to glorify themselves as the way to holiness! I especially liked the part where you said that God willed all this to happen because He does have a plan. He is definitely master of the universe, not us!

Okay, we've passed ignorance and moved into the realm of stupidity, but coming from the sources, i guess we take it w/ a grain of salt.

*wonders how long till this becomes a debate*

Typical response - no scriptural answer just cute sayings. But we have come to accept these kinds of defenses.

i was once involved in the rcc too. then i became born -again. after about 10 years of that i returned to catholicism. i have never felt so saved and free as i have in the last year.

mike

_________________________________________________

Hi Mike,

What do you mean you became born-again?

What is it now that makes you "feel" so saved and free?

Thanks for your time Mike.

Berean_

Why would you expect a scriptural answer to your made up story with no scriptural basis.  The type of stories you have choosen to make up and offer as if they reflect the statements of God Almighty are verging on blasphemous - so don't expect serious answers to these childish daydreams of yours.

If you could just once provide a sound scriptural basis for your comments you would get a scriptural response.  But as can be seen by anyone who cares to go back and review our debate previously your position is not based on scripture as a whole but on a limited subset of a few verses taken out of context from the rest of scripture while you choose to ignore the rest of God's word as irrelevant to you in your time.

You continue to make claims and spread lies about the Catholic Church and never once let it bother your mind that you cannot support these claims with any proof.  All this does is show your ignorance and prejudice which you have obviously learned from others and not from your own study (no matter how much you claim not to follow men).

Please provide a reference from and official teaching source of the Catholic Church that says "Catholics don't believe Christ's death is enough!"  You can't provide one because one does not exist.  This is a strawman made up by those who hate Catholics in order to more easily attack them.  The truth is that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a gift made available only through the sacrifice of Christ.

The following are paragraphs for the Catechism which say just that:

15 The second part of the Catechism explains how God's salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is made present in the sacred actions of the Church's liturgy (Section One), especially in the seven sacraments (Section Two).

124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament" which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19).

Please, Michael, then tell us where Jesus said to call the pope Holy Father and the priests Father. Tell us where he said to pray to Mary, Peter, and Paul. Tell us where he said to surround ourselves with gold and silver statues, (some of them pagan like Apollo which is in the Vatica), line our altars with gold-studded trimmings, parade around in red robes, wear gold-studded head coverings, and carry gold-studded candle-holders. Tell us where he said to make fasting a public event. Tell us where the bible said that Mary bore Jesus no brothers. It is very easy to attack someone's beliefs without backing uo your claims. We have. Now, please support your claims that ours are not scriptural by giving us scripture references for your beliefs. First, start with Christ, because His words are the foundation of Christianity.  

My last post came out very small print...don't know what I did wrong...so I will post again.  ;)

This is from the Council of Trent...I know you know what that is. Can't get much more authoratative than that for the RCC.  I think the first one takes care of your statement ...I didn't have to go to the second one. There is so much in Catholicism that isn't Scriptual. I really hope you will look at God's Word and use that as your measuring stick for truth. Paul has the doctrine for the Body of Christ today.

Canon 4. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification,2 though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.



Canon 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation,13 let him be anathema.

_______________________________________________

By the way you posted this above, take a good look:

15 The second part of the Catechism explains how God's salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is made present in the sacred actions of the Church's liturgy (Section One), especially in the seven sacraments (Section Two).

This is not just faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins because of His shed blood for salvation. Salvation according to Rome is in the sacraments and actions of the church's liturgy. Without that...you are lost if you believe in Roman Catholisim.

Then there is Purgatory...maybe for millions of years...in firey flames of torture according to Rome...to take care of the sins that Jesus could never, ever purify you of or take from you. Read this please...Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

If it weren't for Purgatory...you would never make it to heaven...as your faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to save you from your sins says Rome. Jesus Christ says otherwise...

Let's say you are a good-hearted Catholic, and you do all the things required of your church throughout life. You regularly attend Mass, you work hard to maintain sanctifying grace in your soul by being faithful, and you confess your sins to a priest when you do wrong. You are always careful to participate in the sacrament of penance after committing what you think may be a mortal sin. You do all this AND MORE, in keeping with what your church tells you. When you die, you will likely STILL have to go to purgatory before being granted entrance into heaven. Throughout one's lifetime one could attend over a thousand Masses, and STILL die not fully purified from sin. Protestants respond that this hardly seems like the "good news" of the gospel (Ephesians 2:8-9). The doctrine of purgatory is an outgrowth of the insufficient Roman Catholic view of justification. Since only perfectly righteous people get into heaven, and since in the Roman Catholic view of justification one IS NOT absolutely and once-for-all declared righteous by God, then somehow one must BECOME perfectly righteous before entrance into heaven is granted. This happens via purgatory (among other things). From a scriptural perspective, when Jesus died on the cross He said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption AT THE CROSS. No purgatory is needed for those who trust in Christ. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said, "I have brought you glory on earth by COMPLETING the work you gave me to do" (John 17:4). First John 1:7 says, "The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We are cleansed not by some alleged fire of purgatory but by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:14). Jesus "Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2). It is through Jesus' work on the cross that we are made righteous (2 Corinthians 5:21). The apostle Paul spoke of his life as "not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Philippians 3:7-9). It is through this wonderful work of Christ on the cross that believers are "blameless," and hence are in no need of some alleged purgatory (Jude 1:24; see also Ephesians 1:4). A key verse you will want to share with the Roman Catholic is Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are sanctified." In other words, no further purging is necessary because Christ has perfected "for all time" those who have believed in Him. THAT WHICH IS ALREADY PERFECT "FOR ALL TIME" NEEDS NO FURTHER PURGING. There is no need for purgatory for those who have truly trusted in Christ as Savior.

Good post, Berean! I have quoted contradictions between  Jesus's words and the catholic doctrine many times, yet am told I have not. Since satan is the father of lies, this does not surprise me. Say, are you the Berean who writes the "Berean Call"?

Hi Berean,

I cannot se the above canon stating that Jesus death is not enough.  How do you believe it is saying this?

Cheers
Therese

it absolutely is faith in jesus christ. what you don't understand aparently about the sacraments is that these are all grace gifts to the church. we cannot boast about the eucharist or baptism when the only reason we do them is because christ provided such things by his death and resurrection.


actually according to rome purgatory doesn't forgive sins at all. you need to get your facts straight before you start making these ridiculous statements.


not true. if it weren't for jesus christ you wouldn't even make it to purgatory. again get your facts straight. purgatory doesn't save from sin. it purges one of the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven.


not true. a person is to be judged by god and god alone, there is not likely about it. if you need it you need it if not then you don't. if you properly understand the doctrine i think you will understand what paul means when he says "he will still be saved as through fire"


 

Col 1:24   Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

why is paul saying christs afflictions were not enough?

1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  
 1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  
 1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  

apparently that which has been perfected for all time may find that perfecting through the grace of purgatory.


mike

Where does the bible talk about purgatory?

Jesus said; "the work of God is this; that you believe in the one He sent."  That is ALL He said. Good works come from the SPIRIT. That's why they are called THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT. According to Christ, we are saved once we are born again of the spirit. All good works are then a result of the spirit instead of trying to gain salvation.  Again, the catholic church disagrees with Christ. Once you understand Christ's words, you will understand the rest of the bible. Without believeing Jesus, one will twist the rest of the bible into anything he wants to believe.

wrong
 the catholic church does not disagree with christ, it disagrees with you. stop twisting the word of god to suit your own doctrines.

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  
 1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  
 1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  
 1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  
 1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  

do much for being saved by faith alone.

mike

____________________________________________________

Thank you, and Heidi I love Dave Hunt! No I am not that Berean. But I do recieve "Berean Call" every month. Good publication.

Another great publication is Berean Searchlight...I get that also. Look it up on the web...it is free. It is from Berean Bible Society.

Blain, you have not explained where the bible said there is a prugatory. If you cannot explain scripture in your own words, that means you don't understand it. Which of God's words did I twist?

I will get to the rest of this later...I have work to do...

I still ses no phrase from scripture that says there is a purgatory. All that has been posted is that men have decidced there is a purgatory based on their interpretation of scripture. So far, nothing from scripture itself.

I will if you want to focus on one issue at a time and start by supporting your own claim with scripture and an interpretation so we know what it is you think it means.

So far I have not seen you support any of your claims with such support even though you always demand others do this.

I have asked you to do this repeatedly and you have so far choosen to ignore my requests.  You simply prefer to do a shotgun attack hoping no one can focus on all your points at once so you can get away with shoddy analysis and interpretations.

Pick a topic to do a thorough analysis of state your opinion including your understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches, the scripture you think it contradicts and your interpretation of that scripture and I will do the same.

I have quoted at least twice when the crowd said to Jesus in Luke, 11:27-28, "Blessed is the mother who gave birth to you and nursed you." Jesus replied; "Blessed rather, are the ones who hear the word of God and obey it." Also in Matthew 12:487-48, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you'. He replied to them; "Who is my mother and who are my brothers? For whoever does the will pf my Father in heaven is my brother, sister, and mother." Jesus makes it clear that His mother is NOT more blessed than the ones who do His will. This passage also shows that Jesus did have blood brothers which contradicts the catholic teaching that Mary was a vrigin all her life. Now, you quote a passage where Jesus says to pray to Mary and that Mary was a virgin all of her life.

No it doesn't.  It has repeatedly pointed out to you that the word translated "brother" here can refer to half-brothers and cousins.

This is one topic - if this is the one you want to discuss then tell me what you think this verse means.  What is your interpretation of it and why do you think some teaching of the Catholic Church contradicts it.  Then I will respond to your complaints.



This is another topic and I will not argue with you in the shotgun approach you use, just so oyu can hope to lose the weakness in your superficial analysis in the numerous intertwined arguments.


This is a third issue.

I am ready to respond to any of the issues - one at a time - if you provide your interpretation of the verse and what you think the Catholic Church teaches that is contrary to what the verses says.

I will not be drawn into your web of multiple tangents and unrelated arguments just so you can hide the lack of depth of your interpretation.

So pick one and stick with it until we see what scripture in its entirety (not just one isolated verses) says about the topic.

temporal effects of sin falls into the concept of a just god. we sin, and because he is merciful he forgives us, but his forgiveness does not repair the damage done, it only makes our relationship with him right again.

ie. if i commit adultery and ask god to forgive me (truly repent confess etc.) he will forgive me. but because my sin has consequenses outside of myself such as my wife, children the woman i commited adultery with, etc, there is a cost apart from what god forgives. if a man is gay and gets aids... he may repents find salvation, but because God forgives him doesn't mean that he is cured of aids.. these are what indulgences and purgatory are all about. the sin is forgiven and our relation ship with christ is restored but there is still damage and consequences that result. in a way purgatory may be caried out for the most part here on earth, as we seek to restore the damage caused by our sin through penance. in the end purgatory is really a part of Gods grace as it purifies us and prepares us to see god face to face. in the end it really comes down to the concopt of god's justice... in that even adolf hitler could have repented 5 minutes before he died. god in his mercy would save him by christs blood as well as purify him and prepare him in purgatory (since all temporal justice is removed) and make him ready to stand in gods presence, without forsaking justice for the crimes commited.

as you can see purgatory doesn't pay for our sins.

mike

Matthew 1:
25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.

 ???

But if he didn't, then:

1 Corinthians 7:
3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

 ???

Sorry, Michael, I have already provided my explanations about my beliefs and interpretations of scripture in VIVID detail. Now it's your turn.

Blain, what you just explained is consequences we pay on earth. Did you sense what purgatory is through the bible or the catholic doctrine?I'm lucky that I didn't have the catholic doctrine to interpret the bible for me. Since I became born again, I just read the bible everyday and believe it. Then I don't have to believe by rote or memorizing what someone taught me to believe. I only believe what makes sense with the rest of scripture as discerned by the Holy Spirit.

Point me to a post where you have done so and I will respond to that post.  But I have been watching and you have never done anything I have seen in VIVID detail.  You prefer instead to jump from point to point verse slinging with single references in isolation never wanting to be tied down to a stand that might be shown to be wrong and when others do address your points with scripture references as I myself have even tried to do to your scattered points you simply refuse to even address them or discuss alternate interpretations prefering instead to ignore the word of God when quoted by others.


I wouldn't know where to start as the Catholic doctrine is huge and because it is self consistent it is all tied together so if I begin by defending some point at random I could spend a great deal of time convincing you of something you already accept.  That is why I must wait for you to stabilize and rest on one point that you want to seriously and deeply evaluate - so far you have shown no interest in do such deep study.  i suspect this is because you know the results would threaten your view of the world and it is just easier to hold on to your hatred even if it is wrongly based.

I am not here to force my opinion or interpretations of scripture on anyone else.  I am here to clear up misconceptions and false representations of the Catholic Church's doctrine, both of which you suffer from.  So if you are sincerely interested in the truth - I ask you once again to have the courage to place your issues out for consideration; one at a time, with references and specific details and the scriptures you feel are applicable along with your interpretation of those scriptures so we can see what you think is wrong.  If you have already done that point me to a post by thread name and number and I will respond to it.

Otherwise stop spreading falsehoods, hatred and prejudice you are not willing to stand behind.

The word translated "until" doesn't carry the same implication of change after that the English word until has.  Matt 1:25 says that they had no union before Jesus was born and says nothing about after.


Well, they had't read Corinthians had they.

Seriously, though - that's not a problem if it's their mutual discision.  Or, more accurately, their mutual understanding of the will of God.

Michael,

You can start with the questions i asked you several pages ago. Please tell us where Jesus said to pray to his mother. Please tell us where he said to call the pope Holy Father. Please tell us where he said to make fasting a public event. My explanations and quotes are all over this forum. You can start with the three questions i asked you.

yes purgatory was first understood through catholic doctrine when i was a non catholic. of course i rejected it then as you do based on lack of scriptural support. but then as i was investigating some concepts of hell i found that the concept actually comes before the church, in rabbinical teaching so it was not a matter of catholic invention. as time went by i realized that i may not have understood the concept of purgatory without the teaching of the church, like i would not have know what the bible was, without the church. not only that but the tradition the church appeals to is one that understood things we cannot understand today because we are removed from the culture they are written in. in other words the concept of purgatory really is a scriptural concept, but we have been taught, you and me, that it is not.

btw even if i still believed like you that i am my own personal pope, i would be in disagreement with you.... that is the sad fact of being a protestant.

i would not have understood the concept of the millenium or the rapture from just a surface reading of scripture. i would not have ever gotten the concept of reading scripture everyday and "sensing" what it tells me. i would not have gotten the mentality of being "born again saved" or faith alone, or dispensationalism, or about half a dozen other concepts prevalent in the protestant church today.  if i were to read the scripture and "sense" anything it would probably be to find a church with apostles in it.

but let me ask you something.... when paul went to the bereans "who most certainly were noble" what scriptures do you think they appealed to when paul brought to them the new teaching that circumcision was useless? tell me this did the bereans get it from the bible or the church?

mike

Now, Heidi, shame on you using such persecuting words  >:(.  I mean how dare you ask such a simple question.  ???  The answer should be insteresting.  Do you like answers using psycological warfare?  I hope so because that is what I suspect you will get.  Do not, I said, do not expect a simple, scriptural answer, but more of a long dissertion resorting to how mean and unloving you and I are.  Oh, I forgot, how we misrepresent and slander Rome.  I've seen their own Canons show what they believed was contrary to  scripture - but remember, scripture means nothing to Rome, espcecially when it crosses their Canons and teachings for then scripture is from the "back seat" and then thrown completely out the window.

In fact a good excercise would be to find any scripture that supports anything Rome believes.  Well, maybe the trinity, maybe, not sure about that!  Yes, I'm exagerating a bit here - but not much.  Think about it - take the main teachings of Rome and see if scripture supports any of them.

May God bless.

By the way - has anybody wondered what the "BW" stands for in "Mr. BW"?  ;)

That is not what I asked of you.  First I have to point out that I asked you to pick one topic to research thoroughly - these are three questions and I will not allow you to hide you ignorance amid a vague shotgun approach.  Second your quotes and explanations are not all over this forum.  Your opinions are but they are badly lacking in quotes or scripture references.  Time to get serious and scholarly if you want to know the truth or at least stop spreading prejudice you cannot support.

I am not trying to convince you of the doctrines of the Church I am just trying to correct your misunderstandings of them or of the misinterpretation of scripture.

So you tell me what about those doctrines you see as contrary to scripture and what scripture you think applies and what your intepretation of it is.

I will, in good faith, start out with a cursory response (though even this will contain more detail than your opinions wiuth which you attack these issues) to your questions.  I do hope you are interested in the truth and will respond with the scriptures and your interpretations of them which you feel are contrary to these doctrines of the Church as you understand them.

Catholics do not pray to Mary, Jesus' mother or any other saints.  We pray through them and with them just as we would ask another Christian on earth to pray for us.

Please tell me where Jesus said not to call the Pope Holy Father.  The reference to Matt 23:8-11 (which you have never offered an interpretation of - except for a simplistic literal reading of it in isolation ignoring its relationship to the rest of God's word) does not apply else Paul was in violation of it.  We alos would find ourselves in violation of it by refering to people as teacher, since that is the translation of the term rabbi.

Mat 23:8  But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10  Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11  But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Catholics do not make fasting a public event.  i don't know where you got that notion.  The Church does set aside specific times in which it recommends fasting, but no Catholic following the proper teachings of the Church makes a public issue of their obedience to this instruction.

So as you can see in these three issues you either do not understand the doctrines of the Church and so if you continue to attack the Church you over them you will be practicing prejudice or else because of your superficial analysis you have no scriptural support for your concern of contradiction with God's word.

If you think there is an issue here you feel you can support with deeper study I will be glad to consider it with you, but be prepared to do more than just repeat your opinions with no support like you have done with others who have corrected you over these same issues.

You should take this criticism to heart within yourself for you know full well you do the same thing.  You attack your version of doctrines of the Catholic Church knowing full well (after being corrected many times over them)  that you have them wrong and you know that is bigoted and prejudice.  asking questions or attacking someone over something you know is a fake representation, no matter how simple it seems, is hatred.  So how dare you practice hatred.


If you consider people pointing out your prejudice to be psychological warefare then you are more in denial than I suspected.


Actually she got a scriptural answer though not a simple one as the message of the gospel is not simple.  That is why those of you trying to read and comprehend the entire Bible in light of itself without even being able to recall all of it at once cannot get your doctrines to even be self consistent let alone be proper doctrines.  She also got a similar explanation to the one I just gave you about misrepresentation being a form of prejudice and hatred.


If this were true you could win these debates by simply quoting from these Canons to show how they contradict scripture but you have not been able to do that.  Why is that?  Is it because you haven't really seen these Canons?  Ort is it because you didn't properly understand them because your review was so superficial?  Or is it because these Canons don't really contradict scripture?


It is this type of lie about Catholics and the Catholic Church that shows your real bigotry.  The Catholic Church acknowledges scripture as the word of God and you know it.


I offer you the same chance as Heidi - pick a doctrine of the Church (try to stay on one topic and not hide behind vaguries) and tell me why you think it contradicts scripture.  I will require you to provide a reference to scripture and tell me how you interpret that scripture, but that should be easy to someone like you who claims to know so much.

av catholicism as well as orthodoxy believes in the scripture and tradition,,, this you know well, it is what we profess. if you disagree with that then you disagree but our theology is in keeping with this belief. this belief is entirely scriptural...as i asked heidi, how did the bereans know that paul was speaking truth when he claimed that circumcision was of no benefit? what scripture did they use so as not to rely on the tradition of men? provide this information please otherwise your argument is without grounds.

what is interesting is how protestants and baptists profess the comlete opposite... mainly that everything has to be found in the bible apart from tradition... and yet some of the most popular traditions in the non-catholic realm are purely figments of tradition. the rapture, millenialism, scripture alone, faith alone,  denominationalism, dispensationalism.... these are all traditions of men.

it should be no surprise to see a tradition in catholicism, it is very interesting though that it is just as foundational in protestantism.

anyway instead of weak insinuations and accusations maybe you could back up your statements with facts....rather than psycological warfare.   that would be nice.


Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:  
 Act 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:  
 Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:  
 Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,  
 Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.  
 Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.  
 Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;  
 Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.  

sacred tradition at work.... what scriptures did they appeal to?


mike

I was so happy to see you reference these verses as they so clearly show the authority the Church understood itself to have from the very beginning.

A deep analysis of the chapter reveals alot.  The following is a taste of such an analysis.

Act 15:6  And the apostles and ancients assembled to consider of this matter.

The Church leaders come together to authoritatively consider an interpretation of scripture that the general followers and members of the Church could not decide on their own being without the infallible personal guidance of the Holy Spirit with regards to interpretation.  That is why Peter is told in the end of the Book of John to feed His sheep and the sheep are never told anywhere in scripture to feed themselves.

Act 15:24  Forasmuch as we have heard that some going out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, to whom we gave no commandment:

We see that some had been teaching without permission, showing us that you cannot just go off and declare yourself a minister of God’s word.  You need to be ordained through a laying on of hands by a proper member of the leadership of the Church.  The result of not following this scriptural based method is false doctrine.

Act 15:25  It hath seemed good to us, being assembled together, to choose out men and to send them unto you, with our well beloved Barnabas and Paul:

The Church leadership decided how best to handle this problem and this time it was by sending out messengers, of which Paul was one.  They did not get the solution to handling the problem from scripture they decided this themselves with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Act 15:28  For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things:

We see here that the leaders have access to the statements of the Holy Spirit.  It is also evident that statement of the Holy Ghost and the Church are placed on par, mentioned as they are in the same breath.  This is just as they should be since it is the Holy Spirit who was promised by Christ to the Church to help it prevail even against the gates of Hell and to give it the authority to bind and loose on earth as it is in heaven.

The authority the Catholic Church claims (as the Church of Christ) is the very same authority that we see being exercised at the Council of Jerusalem.  It is not something that was invented late in history as some Protestants claim.

Incredible reasoning  ???

What about the only time the phrase Holy Father is used is when Jesus is addressing God the Father?

And Rome sees no problem with calling someone on earth Holy Father?  No one on this earth is holy.  I don't care if it is
just a "title" - that phrase is used by Jesus to address the God of this universe only.   A total disregard for the authority of scripture!  You can fool your people but not us.

The gospel is very definitely so simple that even children can understand it. Or aren't you aware of Jesus's words to come to Him as little children, Michael? If you know those words, do you know what they mean? Again, my explanations and QUOTES of Jesus's words are all over this forum. But as Bunyan so aptly put it, i will not get simple answers but instead evasive answers through long discourses which are INTENDED to evade. Sorry, but we can see through you. I will begin to take you seriously when you provide quotes from Christ himself supporting your beliefs.

PART 1 OF 3


Yes I do but you don't - they mean we are to become converted and come to Him as innocent and pure as children not as immature in our thinking as children.

1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

If the Gospel was simple as you claim then the Eunuch would not have needed Phillip to explain it to him.

Face it your approach is seriously flawed and you should seek the guidance of someone to feed you milk until you are ready for meat.


This is just not true otherwise you would be simple for me to find them and I have looked and it would be equally simple for you to point me to a thread and post that contained the type of analysis I ask of you.  The truth is you don't do the type of deep study needed and your faulty doctrine show it.


Only you and AVBunyan would see deep study of God's word to show yourself approved as an attempt to evade.

2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

END OF PART 1

PART 2 OF 3


Ok you win it is clear you won't come out from hiding any other way.  Even though I do not know (and cannot know since you do not clearly state your doctrine or support it with interpreted references of scripture) what you disagree with in the doctrines of the Catholic Church I will pick one at random and defend it.

Here are quotes from Christ that show works are required along with faith to properly accept the free gift of salvation.

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28  And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?  And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.  And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Mat 25:31-46  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:   And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.   Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:   For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:   Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.   Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17  And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
   
Mar 10:17-19  And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?   And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mat 5:19-29  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:18-22  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.  And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.  Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Be Humble
Matt 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:9-14  And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
   
END OF PART 2

PART 3 OF 3

Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
   
Mark 8:35  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 9:24  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
   
Luke 17:33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
   
John 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Mark 10:28-30  Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.  And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
   
Matt 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
   
Mark 13:13  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Be Baptized
Mark 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now if you have a problem with the doctrine of salvation of the Catholic Church that includes the importance of works as well as faith in the proper acceptance of the free gift of salvation I expect you to offer interpretations of these scriptures that show how they can be made to support your flawed human generated doctrine.

It is time to stop hiding and claiming that you have covered all this before.

Works, works, works, and more works.

Self-righteous, self-righteous, and more self-righteous works.

Some of you people must be exhausted doing all those vain works.

Man, I'm getting tired just watching all these efforts of self-exaltation. :P

I'll rest in Christ, thank you  ::)

All directed for us to do by Christ.


Not at all since I don't get my righteousness from myself but from the grace of God.  These works are just my response of loving obedience.


I never get tired of serving the Lord as He has personally directed me to do.

Matt 11:30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.



It is obvious you didn't even read the verses.  I can't believe you chose to simply ignore the word of God.  I just can't figure out how oyu can hold to your man made doctrine and not have an answer from it in the form of an alternative interpretation of those verses.  But that is just me I want to be able to defend my faith not just hide from anything that might make me think.

I was wondering if he's the berean that I know from Christianity.com?

Joseph and Mary good servants so it is the Lord's will that they never have sexual relations, and certainly never reproduce any offspring.

We know that the Lord would never want His servants to be happy![/color]

Hi Justme,

Can you tell me are you saying that it is impossible to be happy without having sex?
Happiness  comes from serving God and doing all he wants us to do, not from some act that satisfies the flesh.

God bless
Therese

I never said that one couldn't be happy and be celibate. In fact, I know that unmarried people will be happier if they stay celibate.

However, God created sex for marriage.
I have serious doubts that He intended for any married couple to live a life of celibacy.  

i agree with you for the most part, but if there is an exception it may be that mary and joseph are it. i understand the problem this creates especially in our day and age when it is common to have sex even before marriage, but the other end of it is that there is no history of mary actually having intercourse at all after the birth of jesus. in fact we find just the opposite in the early writings of christian leaders.

mike

  ;D

AMEN!!!!!!!



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I'm way to new in Christ and God's word to be joining in a debate such as this one, but I'll throw my milk's worth in.

I was taught, by the very Christians who prayed for my salvation, when I got saved, that I was to confess my sins by my mouth to God the Father. Not to a mere mortal man who says that I'm supposed to call him father. Now, I don't have Scripture quoted to back that up, but I will study. Like I said, I'm new in all of this. I was saved in the year 2000, but fell and fell hard. I have just, not 2 weeks ago, gotten my behind back on the right path.

Also, I want to point this out. I'm not bashing in any way, but I just want you to see what's happening so you can adjust your ways. The Catholics who are involved in this debate seem to be getting very frustrated. This is evidenced by the fact that when you get into a rant and get frustrated, you start to use the "word" god and not the actual "name" God. See the difference? The "word" is just that. A word that specifies a god and not The God. The "name" is a proper noun punctuated accordingly with a capital G to specify that you are talking about God, and not about a god. I'm not sure which catholic it was, but it's there if you want to go back through. I don't, as I just spent the better part of the hour going through this thread.

Getting frustrated shows a lack of either knowledge on the subject, or it shows that what you are debating, you now realize might be wrong! You pick.

Robert

Actually, I believe James (not the of the twelve) was the brother of Jesus. Also, Matthew 12:46 says," his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him." Now you could say that it said brothers meaning friends, but then what would mother mean? It seems that in order for Jesus to have brothers, then Mary and Joseph must have had sex. I cannot see why anyone would seek to argue the virginity of Mary past Jesus' birth. Take care.

-Aiden-

Proof that Mary had more children:

Mat 13:55  Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Mar 6:3  Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Mat 27:56  Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

Mar 15:40  There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Mat 12:46  While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47  Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Now thats some proof, its the Word of God

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