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If you want to pick one confusing doctrine today it is water baptism and yet it should be one of the simplest of doctrines. And yet more time has been spend on this subject than there ever should have been (just look at all the posts!!!). There are 2 schools of thought:

1. It is essential to salvation – don’t want to argue this – it is not…period!  Seen all the verses, have had then quoted to me out of context for so long I just want to scream!

2. It is not essential to ones salvation but we are to do it because:

a. It is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection – sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.  You say, “It is an outward sign of an inward reality.”  Really?  Where did you get that?  Chapter and verse?  Sounds good but you can’t make a doctrine out of a catchy phrase.
b. It is the first step of obedience - sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.
c. It proves or demonstrates one’s salvation - sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.
d. Many saints in the Bible baptized so we should – sounds good but many saints did things in the Bible that we don’t do anymore.  We don’t sacrifice lambs, we don’t raise people from the dead, we don’t take vows, we don’t abstain from pork, etc.  Yes, things change and I’m glad they do!!!
e. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded it in Matt. 28:19,20 – yes he did but also told you to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded and one of the things he commanded was to adhere to what the Pharisees taught and they taught the law - Matt. 23:3 – “All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe.”  They taught the law and I know you believe you are not to adhere to the Old Testament law (well some of you do). (Similar to “d.)  

First summary – all that we have been taught and practice concerning baptism has been based upon tradition and making doctrines out of poor applications.  Because of these errors we have people going to hell on Acts 2:38, etc. and others trying to obey the “first step of obedience” and if they don’t they are made to fill like second class citizens by Baptist Churches.

What I am going to present I already know most of you will not believe for a couple of reasons:

1. You want to insist on going to hell with your water baptism and nothing is going to change that!

2. You just cannot give up your tradition that has been passed down for centuries.  You have made a doctrine out of a tradition.

Now this is what I believe baptism was for in the Bible.  I will only discuss the word baptism as it relates to water for just because you see the word baptize it doesn’t mean it is associated with water all the time.  Now the Church of Christ can’t see that for all they see is water, water and more water every time the word shows up in any form.  For example - look at I Cor. 10:2 and Col. 2:12 and try to find water baptism there.

The first time water baptism shows up is with John the Baptist.  Now why did John baptize?  Let’s let him tell us.

John 1:31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Look at “therefore” – why is the “therefore” there?  The issue was manifesting Christ to Israel.  Christ was being manifesting to Israel for the first time.  John the Baptist said (paraphrasing), “Here is your Messiah!  Do you believe this” Ok, then get baptized.“  Why get baptized?  To show that you believe Christ was Israel’s long awaited for Messiah.  And along with that they were to show their repentance in regards to their rejection of God the Father in the Old Testament.  Manifestation and repentance - It is that simple.  And yet this simple doctrine meant for God’s dealing with Israel has turned into a monster.

Do you know why they continued to baptize during Acts?  Because the Jews rejected Christ in the gospels and were getting a second chance in Acts.  The Gentiles were in on it because they were getting in on Israel’s blessings at that time.  Once Israel finally rejected the message in Acts 28 then there was no need to call everyone’s attention to Jesus being the Messiah for that plan was done away with and Paul was called out by God to reveal the body of Christ.

The issue of showing Christ being the Messiah is a non issue today for we have advanced revelation on the matter due to the New Testament being finally written down – plus God is not dealing with Israel right now (I know, a broken record) – So………..baptism is a non issue today.  There is only one baptism and that is the one baptism of Ephesians 4 and that has nothing to do with water!

Again, if you start with Paul you will get it – you can’t start with John the Baptist and carry a practice meant for Israel all the way through the church age!  You see how simple the scriptures are?  You know, Christianity is full of a lot of “junk” today that has nothing to do with Bible Christianity.  We are not Rome – we don’t need all of those outward ceremonies.

Conclusion – If you want to baptize then fine – I don’t panic over people making baptism a picture of salvation, etc.  You make it essential to salvation and we will go to war over that.  But to use it as a picture then I’m not going to make an issue out of it – that is between your church and God – I believe in local self-governing churches.

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with Ephesians 4?  Look at what a stumbling block this doctrine has caused.  Look at how much money has been spent on baptismal fountains!!!  Could you imagine a Baptist church not being able to count their “baptisms” to be able to send them to the Sword of the Lord!  Just kidding.  I am a Baptist so I can pick on my own thank you.  ;)

May God bless

Hello AVBunyan-

Thank you for your thoughts on the necessity of baptism.

Personally I feel that Jesus mandated it as one of the Sacraments that we need to be saved.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" - Matthew 28:19

It sounds like you believe that baptism is an invention of tradition over the years, but Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

Another Good message AVBunyan

Only "ONE" Baptism today in this age of Gods Grace (Ephesians 4:5) Now Read 1 Corinthians 12:13, this is the "ONE" Baptism "NO WATER"

Brother Love :)

   <:)))><

1 Corinthians 12:13

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.

Yes, it is the Holy Spirit that accomplishes our rebirth, not water itself.  I don't think anyone believes that water itself does anything.  But that doesn't mean that water isn't validly used in the Sacrament.  

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with the whole gospel?
It only gets old when you lose your first love.

Which Gospel?

Shylynne, please tell us.

Brother Love :)

Take your pick: Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John

:)

Good question Brother Love - I think I will stick around to see an answer form ShyLynne on this one.

Also, Shylynne would you be so kind as to explain:
"It only gets old when you lose your first love."

Thank you so much!

Ya'll have a nice day now!  :)

I'll field this one Shylynne if you don't mind.  And of course, feel free to respond!  Not to mean I'm speaking for you... :)

But I will say this with as much intensity as I can possibly muster:  THE GOSPEL[/b].  ONE GOSPEL[/b].  Paul and the disciples preached the same gospel.  Christ is not divided.  To continue in presenting Paul's gospel as another gospel, or the true gospel apart from that taught and delivered by Peter, and even Jesus Himself is to divide Christ.  It is elavate Paul and lower Christ.  And I for one, am getting tired of this devisive, disrespectful, and heretical teaching of the Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ.   :'(>:( :'(

Three questions for anybody:

1. What specifically is the "Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ"?

2. Do you attempt to follow everthing Jesus taught in the gospels?

3. According to:
Rom 2:16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,

2 Tim 2:8  Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Gal 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Paul is pretty serious about his gospel. Paul had a gospel.

So, the question is: Define Paul's gospel from the scriptures.

Thank you

Ya'll have a nice day now!   :)

Followers of Paul get old too ;)

Now I beg you, brothers, through the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been reported to me concerning you, my brothers, by those who are from Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," "I follow Apollos," "I follow Cephas," and, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul? (1Co 1:10-13)

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," aren't you fleshly? Who then is Apollos, and who is Paul, but servants through whom you believed; and each as the Lord gave to him? I planted. Apollos watered. But God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. Now he who plants and he who waters are the same, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. (1Co 3:4-8)

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He has taken the wise in their craftiness." And again, "The Lord knows the reasoning of the wise, that it is worthless." Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come. All are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's. (1Co 3:19-23)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

But, brothers, I wrote to you boldly, as reminding you in part, because of the grace that is given to me by God, that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the nations, ministering the gospel of God, so that the offering up of the nations might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Therefore I have boasting in Christ Jesus as to the things pertaining to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ did not work out by me for the obedience of the nations in word and deed, in power of miracles and wonders, in power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem, and all around to Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. (Rom 15:15-19)

That God came to man in the form of man, as the man Jesus Christ, for man, as the substitutionary atonement, was dead, buried, and risen again on the third day, and lives today for our justification.  Scriptures?  Try the whole book.


In obedience yes.  For grace beyond what He showed on and after the cross, no.  Noting here, of course, that the Gospels are accounts of the Gospel - Christ's death, burial and resurrection for payment of our sin debt.


You make greater what Paul simply personalized.  In each passage you've listed, Paul expresses that that Gospel is Christ's.  As for the concept of Peter and Paul preaching differing Gospels...


Peter and Paul were given different mission fields, not different Gospels.  I've read what you've posted concerning the two, and have before shown the error in that teaching.  But for additional information...

If there are two differing Gospels, then there are two methods for salvation; one for the Jew, and another for the Gentile, both of whom are members of the same Body.  However, Paul states...


There is no other Gospel.  Christ is not divided.  And you teach in error.  You would be wise to stop.

Friend, I was trying to be gracious in asking my questions in order to bring out a point and you responded with:

"And you teach in error.  You would be wise to stop "

You don't know what I believe - you are assuming something about me you know not what you speak of - but I understand, I'm not upset - but I can see we will get no where here.  

Have a nice day.  :)

Didache Chapter 7 "And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before."

This is one of the Writings from the Early Church.  Dates back to the late first early second century.  It seems that the Church always thought that water baptism was needed.

I'll field this one Shylynne if you don't mind.

I dont mind a bit Allinall, well said - ONE GOSPEL   :)

Avbunyan: Also, Shylynne would you be so kind as to explain:
"It only gets old when you lose your first love."


Let`s refer first to this passage:

Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

It clearly says you leave your  first love by falling away from repentance and first works. You`ll find Paul referring to these works meet for repentance in Acts.

First in acts 19 we find Paul baptizing:
Act 19:4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5  When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Then  in Acts 26 Paul defending his [works] with these words:
 Act 26:20  But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.  

Then finally in the book of Galations Paul  warning the Galations against works of the Mosaic Law, but also saying that only those who have been baptized unto Christ have truly ‘put on’ Christ.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The whole of the gospels includes water baptism, you can ignore it, refute it, try to find a way around it, say its old news, refuse to put on Christ because your theological cloak suits you well enough, but that says - according to the Word of God - you dont love the gospel message.

 

NO!!! Its the gospel  according to : Shylynne  - and you dont love the Grace Gospel message.

Brother Love :)

   <:)))><

Ephesians 4:5

1 Corinthians 12:13

Why do so many people put more faith in an incomplete book than they put in God, who they claim people need to pay attention to.  

What do you mean by "incomplete book"?

Where do you get the idea that people put more faith in a book (I'm assuming you mean the scriptures) than God?

Thank you  8)

:D

1 Cor 12:13 "FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY--" Note: The foregoing (Holy Spirit administered baptism), is but one facet of the unique present day ministry of The Holy Spirit Comforter,3rd Person Holy Trinity; whose unique ministry did not commence,until Christ's ended,at Christ's Ascension at Acts 1:8-11. "Membership" occurs at the moment of one's salvation.

Matt, Mark, Luke,and John's four synoptic gospels, could not possibly be New Testament epistles, in as much as The Testator of The New Testament did not die, until (the close) of these epistles. And that therefore---The New Testament, could not possibly have been "IN FORCE" (during) the entire life and ministry of Christ Jesus, as plainly so stated in Heb 9:15-17.

I meant exactly what I said.  It's not complete.  It does not contain the entire teachings of the Apostles.  It was never meant to.  Remember I belong to the Church that created the Bible.  They chose the Books and under guidance of the Holy Spirit they put them together as a canon.  Here is what the list actually says.  This is the exact text of the Canon created then in the 4th century when they decided on what books would be the Bible.

     "Let the following books be counted venerable and sacred by all of you, both clergy and Laity. Of the Old Testament, five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; of Joshua the Son of Nun, one; of the Judges, one; of Ruth, one; of the Kings, four; of the Chronicles of the book of the days, two; of Ezra, two; of Esther, one; [some texts read "of Judith, one" ;] of the Maccabees, three; of Job, one; of the Psalter, one; of Solomon, three, viz.: Prov- erbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs; of the Prophets, twelve; of Isaiah, one; of Jeremiah, one; of Ezekiel, one; of Daniel, one. But besides these you are recommended to teach your young persons the Wisdom of the very learned Sirach. Our own books, that is, those of the New Testament, are: the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter; three of John; one of James, and one of Jude. Two Epistles of Clemens, and the Constitutions of me Clemens, addressed to you Bishops, in eight books, Which are not to be published to all on account of the mystical things in them. And the Acts of us the Apostles.

But no where does it say in any of the Canons or the Bible itslef that the Bible is a perfect and Complete book.  Only that it contains truth.  But not all truth.

What is in the bible is EXACTLY what we are meant to hear. Otherwise, every thought that Jesus ever thought, or the apostles ever thought, every act, including going to the bathroom, would be put in there. There is a REASON why what was said was said and what was omitted was omitted. Jesus said; "I have a lot more to tell you that you cannot now bear." The bible was written with the aid of the Holy Spirit which is from God. God determines what is said and what isn't. Or don't you believe in God, but only the words of men?

The Bible was not created to be the pillar of all truth.  That's what the Church was created for.  It happened that the Church chose to create the Bible.  Not to be the answer for all truth. But rather to be a compilation of Apostolic Books which were Good for the Teaching of the People by the Church.  But that does not mean that it's the definitive teaching for the life of the Church, it was not created to be that.

And where did God say the Bible will be the only way He will speak to us.

 It happened that the Church chose to create the Bible.

2Ti 3:16  All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Not to be the answer for all truth. But that does not mean that it's the definitive teaching for the life of the Church, it was not created to be that.

Act 17:11  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Why does your words not align with the Word Nickolai ?

Hi,

I just have one question for those who think that baptism is not salvific.  Why does Jesus ask us to be baptized?

Cheers
Therese

Real simple read the below verse:

John 1:31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Here is the only purpose for water baptism in the whole Bible.  The Jew was told to believe that Jesus was the Messiah - if they believed that then to prove that they were to get baptized.

The issue in the gospels was, "Do you believe Jesus is your Messiah?".  If you did not believe Jesus was the Messiah then you would die in your sins:

John 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The issue today is not, "Is Jesus your Messiah but did Jesus die for YOUR sins."  

In Acts 2 the issue again was preached by Peter, "Jesus was your messiah and your murdered him - what are you going to do about it?"  He told them to repent (Of their rejection and murder of Jesus) get baptized (John 1:31) and they would get the Holy Ghost.

There it is - be careful not to take something meant for another people in another age dealing with a kingdom age message directed to Jews and apply it to me or others in this age of grace - thank you.

Have a nice day now

May God bless  :)

Hi AV,

Why does one need to prove to others that they have given their heart to Jesus?  No one else is responsible for their salvation.  Jesus would know our hearts and I don't think this ritual would prove anything to him. Also the eunuch had no witnesses and none of the people in the new testament are told to wait and show everyone that they have given their hearts to Jesus.  In fact some people are baptized in the middle of the night.

cheers
Therese

Yet another AMEN!!! AVBunyan, thanks Bro

Brother Love :)

   <:)))><

Another question for those who thinks it doesn't save us, why does it say in 1 Peter 3:20 -21 that it does?

[20] who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
[21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The bible says that Noah and his wife and children were saved through the water and now we are too, as baptism corresponds to this.

How can the bible say that baptism saves if it doesn't?

Cheers
Therese

Noah and his family was on the Ark :) Not in the water :) Everyone in the water died :)

This Baptism was a dry one. :)

Just like Ephesians 4:5 with 1 Corinthians 12:13 :)

Have a Nice Day :)

Brother Love :)

   <:)))><

Brother Love :)

Brother love,

What is a dry baptism?  I have never heard of anyone receiving a dry baptism?

Here are the bible verses that you sited:

[5] one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

[13] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

I can find no evidence in scripture that support that someone can be baptized without getting wet.

I believe that the water in the story of Noah washed away all evil, therefore the waters of baptism wash away our sins.  (our sins are what are evil)

There are many other instances that water washed away evil.  The water of the red sea washed away the Egyptians when the Israelites were escaping.  The water of the river Jordan washed away Nahmans skin disease.  Elijah passed through water before he went to heaven.  Moses was saved through the water.

All of these instances show me that baptism saves.  

thanks
Therese

Try Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Of course you will say the baptism in vs. 12 is water - I can't help you here.

If you want to count on water baptism to save you then you might fall into the category of:

Gal 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 Cor 4:3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Paul's gospel, where by with we are saved, does not include water baptism.

May God grant you grace to know Paul's gospel

Hi,

Even if there is such a thing as a dry baptism it doesn't change the fact that ST Peter says that the eight were saved through the water.

I have shown many other ways that God saved people by water.  Why can't he use the water of baptism to save us?

Cheers
Therese

Because God used his own blood to save us -

Acts 20:28  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Have a good day now  ;)

I believe that we are saved by the death of Jesus but this doesn't mean that we cannot be saved through the waters of baptism.

One thing I find constantly with Protestants is they say if a saves then b cannot.  Why cant a and b both save?  The bible tells us that water saved Noah and his family, therefore we too can be saved through the waters of baptism.  We need to look at the whole bible to know the way of salvation. Not just adopt the areas that suit our theology.

Cheers
Therese

Heb 9:21-24

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
KJV