Print Page - Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages

2nd Timothy,

I'm not mad at all. I've got nothing against Petro. Its the Pre-Wrath interpretation itself that I'm going to attempt to disprove. I've found serious flaws that should not be overlooked. I may have sounded like I want to "attack" Petro which is not the case at all. The word "attack" is a poor choice of words on my part. Perhaps I should say "reveal the flaw" rather than attack.

This isn't personal. I just want to point out the flaws I have found within the Pre-Wrath interpretation. This is not Paul2 vs. Petro, its Pre-Tribulation vs. Pre-Wrath. After months of defending Pre-Tribulation the debates have revealed flaws to me in the Pre-Wrath interpretation which I feel its time for me to address. I never have called anyone a false teacher or other names and have no desire to do so. We are studing what we believe Scripture teaches. I simply desire to point out what I've seen concerning the Pre-Wrath view.

I feel that I've remained patient throughout these posts and plan to continue being patient. I'm not planning on becoming mean or vicious or insulting. Perhaps I may have sounded as though thats the direction I'm heading toward but thats not my intent. This isn't a war but a discussion. There are many things that I wish to discuss concerning the Pre-Wrath interpretation. If the "tone" of my posts has offended anyone I'm sorry. I enjoy these debates. I said its "time for me to have fun" because I enjoy these debates. I got a little excited when I started to discover flaws within Petro's interpretation because for months I've been defending my position against Petro's position. Now I have found the evidence to make a case against the Pre-Wrath interpretation being a possibility. I hope Petro will stay and continue our study with us but that is up to Petro. I just want to set the record straight that the Pre-Wrath interpretation has flaws of its own.

I don't know what Petro thinks of me as a person. I know he believes that the position I take on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is wrong, thats ok. I have no hard feelings for Petro as a person, I know he believes with his heart that he is correct and I'm wrong. I believe in my heart that I am correct and he is wrong. This is not personal in any way. Its interpretation against interpretation and not person against person. We claim to be seeking for the truth. I want to address the Pre-Wrath interpretation in search of Biblical truth. I believe that there are flaws that prevent the Pre-Wrath interpretation from being the truth and I will address those issues in search of the truth.

Doing so will deepen the study of the End Times. We have been focusing on the Pre-Tribulation interpretation but spending a little time studing the Pre-Wrath interpretation will bring us closer to the truth we all should be seeking.

Nobody hesitates challenging the Pre-Tribulation position so I feel that I shouldn't have to hesitate on challenging the Pre-Wrath position.

I don't believe the Pre-Wrath position can be defended. Anybody is welcome to try but I want to address many things that seem to be unresolvable conflicts in the Pre-Wrath interpretation. I am seeking out the truth.

I hope I have made it clear that this is not personal. Interpretation vs. interpretation and not person against person. It is not my intent to offend anyone. I am simply searching out the truth.

Paul2 8)

Problems I see with the Pre-Wrath Rapture Part 1

First let me start with this: From Petro's interpretation the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church takes place on the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth. From what I've read of Petro's posts he believes the Rapture occurs the very same day as the Second Coming. Petro, if I am getting this wrong please tell me because this is what I believe you have said.

If the Rapture of the Church were to take place the same day as the Second Coming I see problems which I will address.

If the Rapture of the Church takes place on the day of the Second Coming of Christ to the earth then the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th week on earth. If that is the case then the Church has also experienced the Great Tribulation on earth, the reign of the Antichrist and also the mark of the Beast which is very important to keep in mind. If this is the case, that the Church has been on earth for Daniel's 70th week and experienced the Mark of the Beast it can be concluded that all who are to be Raptured refused the mark of the Beast. This would leave only those who are eternally lost with the mark of the Beast left on earth at the Rapture. The Wrath of God will be poured out after the Rapture of the Church on a Christ rejecting world.

If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming then the Wrath of God would be poured out in a single day (I'll deal with this later indepth). After the wrath of God is poured out upon the Christ rejecting world Jesus Christ will come to the earth to establish His kingdom. By placing the Rapture of the Church on the same day as the Second Coming it would stand to reason that all the Saved would be Raptured and all the lost would remain on the earth for the wrath of God. Later in the day Christ would visibly return to the earth and conclude Daniel's 70th week. The prophecy given in Zechariah 14 will take place when the Lord returns to earth to touch down on the mount of Olives. The only people left on the earth should be those who received the mark of the beast and all those who were lost at the time of the Rapture hours before. We learn that those who experience the Wrath of God do not repent, therefore we can conclude that those upon the earth at the time of the second Coming of Christ to the earth are all lost or they would have been Raptured hours earlier if both events happen on the same day.

Considering the possiblity of the above scenario the conclusion I see would be that all the saved would have been Raptured and the lost would remain on earth for the wrath of God. People do not repent during the Wrath of the 7 vials, so the only people on earth at the time of the Second Coming would be those who received the mark of the beast and the lost. All those who are saved, the living and the dead would be resurrected at the Rapture according to this scenario.

Here comes the first problem I see. If all those who are saved are Raptured the same day as the second Coming then all the saved should have immortal bodies at that point.

Now lets look at a few verses of Scripture:

Revelation 20:7: "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

From the above verses of Scripture we see that the nations of the earth will be tested again by Satan leading a rebellion and the nations will be gathered again to attack Jerusalem at the end of the millenium.

These who are tested again by Satan's rebellion can not be resurrected Saints. These who are tested are still mortal and still able and willing to rebel against God. Obviously these who are tested can fail the test and be sent to the lake of fire. They obviously were not Raptured but remained alive until the Second Coming and entered the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. How is this possible if the rapture of the Church took place hours before the Second Coming? Remember that during the 7 vials of the wrath of God Scripture states that nobody repented. How did natural men enter the millenium in unresurrected bodies?

This does not make sense. If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth and nobody repented during the 7 vials all who remained on earth should have been the lost who denied Christ and accepted the mark of the beast. There should be nobody left to survive and enter the millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. How can there be people who will be tested by Satan after the 1000 years of the millenium have ended when Satan is released to seduce the nations one more final time? There can't be!

The Rapture of the Church must occur before the Second Coming and the wrath of God to allow people time to repent and come to faith in Christ and enter the millenium alive in natural unresurrected bodies.

I'll be adding on to these points in my next posts. I just getting started.

Isaiah 65:19: "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

The above verses are refering to the millenium. These spoken of above were not Raptured resurrected Saints. These are the survivors and the children of survivors of the Great Tribulation that entered the millenium in natural bodies but have had the curse of sin removed from them but death is still a possibility. These spoken of are not immortal yet. These are the survivors of the Great Tribulation that will be tested by Satan at the end of the millenium.[/color]

Paul2 8)

On my last post I started to explain that during the Millenium there will be people who will remain in natural bodies that can die and also be tested by Satan when he is released from his prison. Those who choose to follow Satan in his final rebellion will be cast into the lake of fire with him after the Great White Throne Judgement.

Anyone who was Raptured will receive their immortal body, they can not be tested by Satan or ever fall from Grace.

1 Thessalonians 4:16: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."[/color]

The above verses make it clear that those who are Raptured will be with the Lord forever with no chance of losing Salvation. They will become immortal at the Rapture.

In the verse below we will see the fate of the Martyred Tribulation period Saints.

Revelation 20:4: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The martyred Tribulation period Saints will be Resurrected and reign with Christ for the 1000 year Millenium, the Second Death has no power over them because they have been Resurrected and can not be tested by Satan and fall.

Tribulation period Saints who survive the Great Tribulation will enter the Millenium as unresurrected mankind, and will be tested by Satan and sadly many will choose to follow his rebellion after 1000 years of Christ's Reign. People hate rules now, just wait until Christ is reigning and there still in mortal bodies, many will grow weary of Christ"s Rule and be willing to follow Satan during his last stand.

The problem is how did these Tribulation Saints that escape martydom and survive to the end of the Great Tribulation without receiving the Mark of the Beast miss the Rapture? Consider the cost of refusing the mark, martyrdom or life on the run being hunted down, unable to buy or sell anything. Anyone who is willing to be martyred rather than receive the mark should have realized that to receive the mark meant eternal damnation. They must have come to faith in Christ which is the reason they would be willing to be martyred rather than accept the mark of the Beast. If they believed enough to refuse the mark they should have been Raptured the Day of the Second Coming according to the theory that the Rapture and the Second Coming happen on the same day. But this is not the case. Living Tribulation Saints enter the Millenium in natural bodies and can fall and can sin and can die and can choose to follow Satan's rebellion and can be thrown into the lake of fire.

This is the problem with this Pre-wrath interpretation. Somehow people believed enough to refuse the mark of the Beast but not enough to be Raptured but then believed enough to be allowed to enter the millenium alive only to experience a 1000 year test with the Lord reigning over earth. Then Satan will be allowed to test them one more final time.

The question is how did unresurrected natural mankind enter the millenium alive after refusing the mark of the beast but missing the Rapture which leaves them in their natural bodies?

This is only a problem when the timing of the Rapture is not Pre-Tribulation, before the tribulation period begins.

In reality those Tribulation Saints that are martyred are the lucky ones, because they will be resurrected and enter the Millenium as priests in immortal bodies that Satan can not test and that the Second Death has no power over. The Tribulation Saints that survive to the end of the Great Tribulation and remain alive in natural bodies when they enter the Millenium are subject to the rules and testing of the Millenium and will be tested by Satan when he is released after the 1000 years are over. The Tribulation Saints that enter the Millenium alive and unresurrected can choose to follow Satan in his rebellion and be cast into the lake of fire with him. The martyed Tribulation Saints receive immortal bodies at the Second Coming of Christ and get a much better deal than those who run and hide and survive.

I'd recommend martyrdom to the Tribulation period Saints, turn yourself over to Satan's authorities and allow your head to be cut off. By doing so you ensure an immortal body for the Millenium and avoid being tested for a 1000 years and Satan"s rebellion which could cost them their Salvation. Theres no guarentee that those who enter the Millenium alive in unresurrected bodies will not fail the final test and follow Satan into the lake of fire. Thats my opinion of it anyways.

The Pre-Tribulation interpretation goes like this.

The Rapture of the Church takes place before the Tribulation period and Daniel's 70th week. Next Daniel's 70th week begins and multitudes come to faith during the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week after witnessing the Rapture. At the mid week of the 70th week Satan is thrown from heaven, Antichrist (the beast) receives authority over the earth for the 42 remaining months of Daniel's 70th week. The Wrath of God begins at the mid week and the effect of the 7 vials begin to be poured out from the midweek on. The new Tribulation period Saints are then hunted down and many are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast. At the end of the 70th week Christ resurrects the martyred Tribulation Saints and returns to the earth with His WIFE the Raptured Church that has been with Him in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel. The Tribulation Saints that escaped martydom and remained alive until the Second Coming are then gathered by angels to appear at the sheep and goat judgement by Christ along with those who received the mark of the beast who will be destroyed and be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millenium.

By placing the Rapture and the Second Coming on the same day or even placing the Rapture after the mark of the beast is issued has unresolvable conflicts with Scripture.

I'll continue on in my next post, got to go coach my sons soccer game now.

Paul2 8)

Pre-Wrath problems part3

Lets take a look at the 7 vials and the effects they have on earth from the Pre-wrath perspective first.

Revelation 16:1 "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2: And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

The effect of the first vial are painful sores which infect those who received the mark of the Beast. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. It would only last for hours instead of days, weeks, months and years. 24 hours of suffering would not be pleasant but nothing compared to approcimately 3 1/2 years of duration if the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague.

Revelation 16:3 "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea."

The effect of the second vial is that every living soul in the sea dies and the sea becomes as the blood of a dead man. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. Yes its sad that everything in the sea dies but the effect would only last hours as far as the plague aspect. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine that every living thing in the sea dies and there are weeks and months and perhaps a few years of the sea being like the blood of a dead man. Imagine the stench of the coastline and the rotting flesh of sea creatures washing up on shore and the germs and sickness that will follow. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:4 "And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5: And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy."

The effect of the 3rd vial is that the fresh water supply of the world turns to blood, the rivers, the water found underground all turned to blood. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. After all people can go 3 days without drinking water so 24 hours should be easy. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine mankind having no water to drink for months if not a few years. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:8: "And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

The effect of the 4th vial will be the sun scorching people with great heat, and remember, they Repented Not. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. It wouldn't be pleasant but it would only be one day in the sun, 24 hours or so in misery. By the way the day of the Second Coming is a cloudy day but thats besides the point. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine being burned by intense heat from the sun for months if not a few years. People complain about a 3 day heat wave now, imagine the worst heat wave in history lasting for months.It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:10: "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11: "And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."

The effect of the 5th vial is darkness on the throne of the Beast, along with the pain from the sores of those who received the mark of the Beast, which is the continueing effect from the first vial. And once again we see that nobody repented. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. Whats the big deal about one day of darkness. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine months if not a few years of darkness over the kingdom of the Beast and the painful sores continueing to plague those who accepted the mark of the beast. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:12: "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13: "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14: "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16: "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The effect of the 6th vial is that the Euphrates River is dried up to "prepare" the way for the kings of the east, also the Satanic Trinity of Satan, Antichrist and the false prophet work miracles to gather the armies of the world "to the battle of THAT great day of God Almighty". If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not possible. The wording of the verses says that "the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. It will take time for the Euphrates to dry up and for the 200 million man army of the kings of the east to go from China to Jerusalem. If it were just kings and not the army spoken of in Revelation 9 they could use bridges but as I said in a previous post there would be an incredible bottleneck traffic jam for 200 million to cross the Euphrates so the river is divinely dried up to PREPARE the way for the gathering around Jerusalem by the armies of the world. The armies of the world must be in place around Jerusalem before the second Coming of Christ and to try to fit all these events into one single day is not possible or probable. The battle of Armegeddon is a campaign not a quickly assembled group that decide to go to Jerusalem at the last moment and arrive and are assembled in a matter of hours. This takes time. Learn from the U.S. lead Iraqi freedom war. How long did it take for our armies to gather around Bagdad? It wasn't hours, it took months of preparation and then days once the final assault began and we set the record for the fastest movement of an army in world history.

Revelation 16:17 "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18: "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19: "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20: "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21: "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The effect of the 7 vial leads to the return of Christ at His second Coming. This is the time period that Zechariah 14's events take place. The final plague has been poured out on the earth and Christ Himself will be retuning to establish His kingdom after this plague is poured out.
It should make far more sense to realize that the Wrath of God begins in the middle of Daniel's 70th week which allows the plague to become real horrific plagues that to try to fit all 7 vials between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ to the earth if both events are only hours apart. The Wrath of God wouldn't be all that bad if its effects only last a single day. It wouldn't be a pleasant day by any means but the plagues only become horrific when there is time for the full effect of each plague to manifest itself with the prolonged effects having time to truely devastate those who dwell on the earth.[/color]

Paul2 8)

PreWrath Rapture problems part 4

I have presented evidence that there will be unresurrected people in natural bodies that will enter and dwell in the Millenium on earth. I will offer more evidence from Isaiah.

Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7: And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8: And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.[/color]

There will be little children on earth during the Millenium. The will be infants on earth during the Millenium. The curse on nature will be removed and the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord. Wild Beasts will allow little children to lead them. These little children and those who are infants are not in resurrected bodies. They have natural bodies without the curse of nature on them. As in the days before noah when men lived to be 800- 900 years old so shall it be during the Millenium. Perhaps the aging process will be much slower than before the flood. The next verse will support the aging process being slower than it was on people before the flood.

Isaiah 65:19: "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Notice carefully that the child shall die an hundred years old, but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. First of lets remember that the scripture says "Die" which means that death is possible for those who remained alive or were born into the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. A child will die at a hundred years old. The aging process is extremely slowed down at the time of the Millenium. The sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. This means that by sinning a person can die and will be considered to have been accursed for committing sin. Death has no power over those who are resurrected into immortal bodies. These people spoken of by Isaiah are in mortal natural bodies with the curse of nature removed or at least partly removed. They are still mortal and will also have to be tested when Satan is released from his prison at the end of the Millenium. There is the possiblity that many who enter the Millenium alive in their natural bodies and those who are born of natural men during the Millenium will follow Satan into rebellion when the Millenium ends. Those who were Raptured (the Church) and those who were martyred and resurrected (Old testament and Tribulation Martyred Saints) will not be subject to Satan's last rebellion. Tribulation Saints that survive until the Second Coming of Christ will enter the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies and they and their children born during the Millenium will be the ones Satan will try to lead astray during his final rebellion.

Isaiah 65:21: "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22: They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23: They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24: And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25: The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."

I'll stop here for now and allow time for responces.

I would like an opinion of how I have done so far presenting my case against the possibility of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Have I presented reasonable evidence and backed it up with Scripture? Am I making my case? I truely want to know how I have done so far in presenting the case against the possibility of the Pre-Wrath Rapture as it is presented in these posts. Please let me know your opinions on these last few posts. I want to know how many people feel I'm making a reasonable agruement against the Pre-Wrath interpretation. I'm trying to learn to be more effective in my presentations and explainations, so I welcome the critique. Let me know how you feel I am doing one way or the other.
Thank you.
Paul2 8)

Quote from: Paul2 on April 08, 2004, 12:14:54 AM

If the Rapture of the Church takes place on the day of the Second Coming of Christ to the earth then the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th week on earth.

The pre-wrath position holds that the church goes through the wrath of satan, which is part of the 70th week, but it does not go through the entire 70th week, which includes the wrath of God.

Quote from: Paul2 on April 08, 2004, 12:14:54 AM

If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming then the Wrath of God would be poured out in a single day (I'll deal with this later indepth).

The second coming and the wrath of God start on the same day, but the wrath of God spans the rest of the 70th week, through all the vials. It does not end on the same day as the rapture; whatever has been written in other posts the pre-wrath view does not hold that the end of the 70th week and the rapture happen in one 24 hour time span.

Quote from: Paul2 on April 08, 2004, 12:14:54 AM

The only people left on the earth should be those who received the mark of the beast and all those who were lost at the time of the Rapture hours before. We learn that those who experience the Wrath of God do not repent, therefore we can conclude that those upon the earth at the time of the second Coming of Christ to the earth are all lost or they would have been Raptured hours earlier if both events happen on the same day.

There is a group in this that is not being taken into account. There must be people who:
a.) Are not given spiritual bodies during the 70th week
b.) Who are not believers (else they would be raptured)
c.) Who do not take the mark of the beast

These things must be, because in Isaiah 65:20 this is written about the Millenium:
Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;

If this is talking about the Millenium, then flesh must survive the 70th week (as pointed out in these posts). If it did not then no one would be able to die at a "young" age.

Quote from: Paul2 on April 08, 2004, 12:14:54 AM

How did natural men enter the millenium in unresurrected bodies?

This does not make sense. If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth and nobody repented during the 7 vials all who remained on earth should have been the lost who denied Christ and accepted the mark of the beast.

The span of time between the conceptualized pre-wrath rapture and the 7 vials can be nearly half of the 70th week. There are people who are neither saved nor taken by the mark of the beast throughout all of it;

About men not repenting during the vials:

Revelation 16:8-11
Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

The statements about non-repentence of men in these verses does not indicate that everyone has the mark, or that everyone does not repent. Throughout the books of the prophets God continually states that the peoples hearts are hard, and they are unrepentant, yet at the same time there is a prophet among the people and a remenant that have not defiled themselves.

Take this example about the wrath of God from Zephaniah:
Zephaniah 1:17-18
"I will bring distress upon men,
And they shall walk like blind men,
Because they have sinned against the LORD;
Their blood shall be poured out like dust,
And their flesh like refuse."

Neither their silver nor their gold
Shall be able to deliver them
In the day of the LORD's wrath;
But the whole land shall be devoured
By the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make speedy riddance
Of all those who dwell in the land.

If this passage is interpreted the way the verses in Revelation can be interpreted, then every human being on the earth will be killed by God. None will survive in flesh to enter the Millenium.

Revelation tells us that God still reaches out to people during the time of the 7 bowls:

Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth--to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people-- saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."
And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Here an angel is preaching the gospel, but how do we know that it is possibly during the time of the vials? From this passage:

Revelation 16:17-19
Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!" And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

It seems that Babylon does not fall until around the 7th vial; meaning that the chronology for the events in chapter 14 have to line up somehow with the 7th vial, because Babylon cannot fall twice, yet it is recorded as falling in chapters 14, and 16, and more in depth in 18.

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paul2 repliy #324

Petro,

LOL, you can call me anything you want, doesn't mean its true.

Back to attacking my interpretation again I see.

Your interpretation Paul on the pre-tribulation rapture is wrong because it is founded on the premise, that there is a secret coming of Jesus 7 years before He returns to establish His Kingdom on this earth.

You are only fooling yourself, and whoever else believes your rendition of this important account given by two men, in white apparel; at Acts 2:10-11.

The chief verse you rely on for this mis-interpretation is ;

1 Th 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Your distorted interpretation of the word meet, prevents you from seeing and understanding the significance of this word in being able to set the end times eschatological prophecies in some semblance of order.

As I stated before you have been swept off your feet, with your theory, which is founded on Margaret MacDonald's prophecy of 1830, ultimately embraced as "Millenial Dawnism" by the watchtower society, and a refusal to address serious errors, in your mis-interpretation and twisting of words, critical to the understanding and studying of such a hard subject of which Jesus himself, said;

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Mat 24:30-36.

Clearly Jesus is speaking of His personal and visible return to earth, at the end days, when He comes with ALL HIS SAINTS 1 Th 3:13.

According to your theory, you would have us believe, you know when that day, will come contrary to Christs own words.

I have pointed out to you, that the word meet at 1 Th 4:17, is the Greek word apantesis Strongs #529, which is used only 4 times in the entire NT.

This word is not only rejects your understanding of themeaning of this word, but your understanding actually distorts it, to state that after this meeting in the air with Jesus, both Jesus and those whom He met in the air will return back to heaven is no0t indicated because of the Greek definition and meaning of this very word, and of course from this point onward, you create your scenario of a 7 year period of absence of the Holy Spirit upon the earth, while the wrath of God, which you define as great tribulation, ending upon Jesus second coming.

Contrary to the language of this verse, you build a theory , not based on plain scriptural understanding, but on a private understanding only you possess; we do not have a time signal in this passage, telling us that this occurs seven years before Christ sets foot on the Earth.

Nor do we have any indication as to where our destination is, in English. It just simply states, that we will meet Christ in the air. It is certain that we do not stay suspended in space; we have to be going somewhere.

However the Greek word meet describes exactly what occurs after the meeting in the air;
We don't have to twist the word to make it fit, our understanding of the text.

This word as I previously pointed out, appears in only 4 in verses of the NT.

It is only used to describe one certain situation. In all three of its usages in the other NT verses, and it is used in a specific way.

The first time apantesis (meet) occurs is in Matt 25:1 & 6.
At verse 1, the full extent of this word is not made clear, but the next two uses of this word, leave no doubt to the reader, what is in view concerning the use of this word.

Note:

Matt. 25:6 "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to MEET (apantesis) him!'
Here, in the parable of the 10 Virgins, is the first occurence of the word, apantesis. The 10, not knowing when the Bridegroom is coming, go out to meet him. They know he is coming, but not when. They bring lamps, and 5 bring oil. When the cry comes that the Groom is coming, 5 are ready to meet him, and go to meet him, and accompany him back to the house of his bride. The Groom approached the house of the Bride, the virgins went out to meet him, and then returned with the Groom as he continued on his journey to the bride's home. In this event, notice that it is the virgins who turn around, not the groom. They go out to MEET (apantesis) the groom, turn around, and go back to where they came from. The groom does not turn around and go back to his home, having as his companions the five wise virgins.

This is a favorite verse of pre tribbers, isn't it.

He is met by the five wise virgins, who turn around and accompany him to the home of the Bride.

In your theory, you do butcher this word.....by claiming the Lord returns back where He came from, after having met, Christians in the air at 1 Th 4:17.

This is error, pure and simple..

The second occurence of the word apantesis come in Acts 28:15.

Acts 28:15 The brothers there had heard that we were coming, and they traveled as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to MEET (apantesis) us.
In this passage we understand;

Paul is being sent, as a prisoner to Rome. He is under guard. Christian brothers in Rome who know of Paul hear about his imminent coming to Rome, and go out on the road of Paul's approach to meet him. When they meet Paul at the Forum, they rejoice with him, and then turn around and accompany Paul back to Rome.

This is the second time MEET (apantesis) is used, and the second time that it shows those who go out to meet someone, then turn around and accompany that person on their journey to his intended destination.

For your information , Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, p. 402, (Nelson, 1985) has this to say about the word apantesis:

"It is used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. " (It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary) (Moulton, Greek Test. Gram. Vol. I, p. 14)"

This example of what I have written herein, is used to point out a major foundational error in your theory, of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Proper use and understanding of the Greek word apantesis, demands an explanation, of your mis-understanding of this word, which is diferent from that of expositiors.

Unitl you address this inconsistency of your mis-interpretation of this word which leads to your understanding of an pre-tribulation rapture, you have nothing to crow about, much less call forth other theories, which may be examined in the lite of your distorted understanding of these ends times prophecies by Daniel or any other prophets.

No offense to you personally, it is your theory I take issue with, and only by defending something which is clearly erroneouness, you have turned this into a personal matter.

Instead of being offended that Gods Word is herein violated by your theory, you are offended by hard to answer questions posed to you, which you cannot defend, thereby making it clear you are not interested in seeking out the truth of Gods word, at all but, advancing your own agenda on this pre trib theory.

Thanks but NO thanks...............

Blessings,

Petro

Quote from: Eddielee on April 09, 2004, 01:52:51 PM

Quote from: Paul2 on April 08, 2004, 12:16:12 AM

The Pre-Tribulation interpretation goes like this.

If you are unwilling to speak about your views when challenged, please keep them out of the debate entirely. Lets keep this focused on pre-wrath.

Eddielee,

Petro is the only one I'm not willing to debate until he presents and defends his interpretation.

I'm willing to discuss my Pre-Tribulation interpretation with anyone other than Petro right now.

For the record the Pre-wrath theory I have challenged was Petro's pre-Wrath theory. He never presented much of it but it was his theory I challenged, not yours.

I have not seen your theory yet. Your new here. There are pages of debates on my other thread. You don't know the history behind why I will not discuss my interpretation with Petro any more until he presents and defends his theory.

If you want to show Petro how to present the Pre-Wrath interpretation go right ahead.

I started this post because My original debates with Petro will become buried and forgotten on the "Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" thread. After months of Petro's attacks I don't want people to forget that Petro hasn't been able to present and defend HIS interpretation of the Pre-Wrath Rapture so I started this thread. I want people to understand that Petro, who constantly wants to challenge my interpretation is unwilling or unable to present and defend his interpretation of the Pre-Wrath which he claims to believe.

I shouldn't be asked to stay out of a debate that I started, on a thread I created. Seems people always try to limit me on my posts on my threads.

Who is it your posting to? If you want to just debate Petro, I'll just sit back and let you debate him. Perhaps you can drag his theory out of him.

If you want to debate me on the Pre-Wrath interpretation you must pesent your interpretation, after all, its the theory you believe. When debating interpretations both peoples interpretations are expected to be refered to. Its basicly offering an alternative position. If you want to teach your interpretation I welcome it. I'd like to have Petro do the same and compare them.

You haven't presented your interpretation yet so I haven't debated you yet. All my posts are directed to Petro who won't present his theory or respond to my challenges of what little of his theory can be put together.

I'm led to believe that your Pre-Wrath interpretation differs from Petro's but I haven't seen Petro's theory explained yet.

I have no problem allowing you to present your interpretation. I'd like to examine your theory, to test your theory against Scripture.

You may have the answers that Petro doesn't have. I won't know until you explain it. Petro has no solutions to the problems I see with "his" theory of how the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place and when the Wrath of God begins and ends.

I'll ask you this question: When do you believe the wrath of God begins? Before Daniel's 70th week? During Daniel's 70th week? Or at the end of Daniel's 70th week? When does the Rapture take place? Before Daniel's 70th week? During Daniel's 70th week? Or at the end of Daniel's 70th week?

Does the Rapture occur followed by a period of time until the Second Coming or do both events happen on the same day? Petro believes, from what I've been able to put together, that the Rapture and the Second Coming happen on the same day. That there is no time period between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Whats your theory?

Paul2 8)

Quote from: Petro on April 09, 2004, 11:32:55 PM

butcha,

Great, that is my objective.

I have an answer but, being an ole hand at poker in my days before being saved, there are certain things that one retains in his thinking, I never reveal my hand, until it is time, and no one can force it either, I played this game before.

LOL!!!!! Petro's playing a game alright. Its called "hide the fact that I don't know the answers!" He seems to think we should just trust him and that he has answers he doesn't want to reveal. LOL!!!!

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At the appointed time I will share where I stand, I am looking for answers to questions presently to establish FACTS. And there is a good possibility, I may not even have to, since the horse will always drinks water, when led to it with patience.

quoting Petro: "And there is a good possibility, I may not even have to," Petro, thats what your counting on! Perhaps you can play your poker like BLUFF long enough not to have to reveal you were bluffing and had no answers to begin with!!!! LOL!!! I call your bluff, show your cards! 8)

I like your poker comment, its quiet revealing! I'll bet you were really good a bluffing weren't you Petro?

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It is not issue should not be theory against theory, it is a theory against Gods Word, as I see it.

Good! Then explain the Scriptures I used to destroy your theory. I put God's word against your theory and your theory fell apart.

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Let's disprove one at a time, not match them up, and then start argueing about the theories.

In other words let Petro attack the Pre-Trib. theory and let him ignore his disproved Pre-Wrath theory. Only Petro can attack theories, lets not discuss his theory, Petro doesn't like to do that. He might have to reveal that he is bluffing and has no answers.

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It is silly to want to compare my theory against yours, there are to many theories out there already.

Is it silly to compare your theory to the word of God Petro? I compared your theory against the word of God and proved your theory is not possible.

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We need to weed out the obvious erroneous ones first.

LOL!!!! CLASSIC!!! Oh I get it, you want to attack everybody else and keep your theory hidden from debate and attacks and from being tested by the word of God. Good plan for a man who has no clue to how his theory works! LOL!!!!

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Don't you think??

Are you asking if we think? Are you wondering if you can fool us? I think that you assume we are all stupid. You expect Butcha to believe you have answers you won't share and don't have and want to be allowed to bash the Pre-Tribulation theory without anyone looking at the flaws of your Pre-Wrath theory. Your Silly!

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Your trying to pull the wool over everyones eyes. Your trying to fool everybody. Do you really think we are that stupid.

Petro only wants to "play" by Petro's rules. Petro thinks he's playing poker and thinks he's the dealer who gets to pick the game and rules. Petro is bluffing and has no answers to how his theory works! He thinks that if he makes the rules nobody will call his bluff! LOL!!!!! I CALL PETRO!!!!

Butcha, call Petro's bluff! Have him put his cards on the table for all to see. You will see he has nothing and is bluffing. He can't present or defend his interpretation and thats why he's "playing" his game his way hoping no one will object. He just wants to be allowed to bash the Pre-Trib. Rapture but ignore his Pre-Wrath theory which I have proven flawed.

Petro, you never cease to amaze me. You really think we're all that stupid don't you? I hope people call your bluff! I hope nobody allows you to "play" your game and make the rules.

I hope everybody will ask you to show your hand that your trying to keep tight to your vest. People don't play Petro's game. This isn't a game! Petro wants to control how you study and how you think. Petro thinks he's smarter than everybody here. He thinks we will allow him to attack the Pre-Trib. theory and allow his flawed theory to go un-noticed.

Petro is being deceptive and is "playing a game." If he has answers then ask him to present them. Don't allow Petro to trick you into believing he has answers that he doesn't have!

Whats wrong with you people? Can't you see what Petro is trying to do? He thinks your dumb enough to allow him to tie your hands behind your back so he can attack you without being hit back. His theory is flawed! I have exposed the flaws! He ignores the flaws but tells you he has answers he's not willing to share. He even stated he hopes he doesn't have to!

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"At the appointed time I will share where I stand, I am looking for answers to questions presently to establish FACTS. And there is a good possibility, I may not even have to, since the horse will always drinks water, when led to it with patience."

Its time you people tell Petro that the appointed time is NOW! He's planning on avoiding the conflicts within his interpretation and just attacking the Pre-Trib. interpretaton.

Petro is being deceptive and trying to fool you. Its the only way he knows how to play his game. I can't believe your all letting him get away with it. Read his words again and think about what he has said.

I don't think you people are stupid, Petro does. Don't allow Petro to make fools out of you. Speak up and call his bluff!

He can try to avoid answering me but if everybody asks him to reveal his secret answers that he's not willing to share he'll have to do something about it. He'll probably run away but until you call his bluff we'll never know will we?

Paul2 8)

Quote from: Eddielee on April 08, 2004, 04:36:15 PM

If the Rapture of the Church takes place on the day of the Second Coming of Christ to the earth then the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th week on earth.

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The pre-wrath position holds that the church goes through the wrath of satan, which is part of the 70th week, but it does not go through the entire 70th week, which includes the wrath of God.

Quote from: Paul2 on April 08, 2004, 12:14:54 AM

If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming then the Wrath of God would be poured out in a single day (I'll deal with this later indepth).

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Explain this to Petro. I don't understand how the Second Coming can "Start" on the Same day the Wrath of God starts. The Second Coming is an event. Its Christ returning to earth. Are you saying Christ stood up but took years to get ready to come back. The Second coming begins when he leaves Heaven and comes to earth. We can discuss this later.

Quote from: Paul2 on April 08, 2004, 12:14:54 AM

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Quote from: Paul2 on April 08, 2004, 12:14:54 AM

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Try to explain this to Petro. Ask Petro what he thinks of what you have said. Petro has painted himself into a corner. He has stated that the Wrath doesn't begin until after the Rapture which he places on the same day as the Second Coming. Try to get Petro to address the issues you presented here. Good luck. You understand the theory and see the flaws in the way Petro interprets the Rapture and Second Coming. You also understand that the Wrath of God in the 7 vials take effect during the last half of Daniel's 70th week. Try to get Petro to respond to your theory. You explain it better than he does. I have issues with some parts of your theory but I'll allow you to continue to present your case before jumping into debate you. I haven't seen where you place the Rapture of the Church in relation to the timing of the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week yet. Perhaps you will address my issues when you explain more about the Pre-Wrath theory. Petro's theory doesn't work and you understand why.

Petro doesn't like to present his theory for fear it will be challenged and proven wrong as I have just done anyways. Try to get Petro to address your theory. Ask him whether he accepts that the Wrath of God takes effect during the Second Half of Daniel's 70th week or if it begins the same day as the Rapture and second Coming which he ties together on the same day. You know he's wrong, and I know he's wrong, but Petro refuses to present his interpretation so everybody will know he's wrong. He's trying to keep the fact that he's wrong a secret just like his theory is secret and his answers are a secret. Petro's playing poker and is bluffing.

He doesn't want to let me deal and challenge his interpretation, he wants to play his game and keep his interpretation a secret hoping he never has to present it or expose his lack of ability to do so.

Try to get Petro to explain his flawed Pre-Wrath theory to you. Ask him why he refuses to discuss his theory with you. Try to show him the flaws you can see with his interpretation. You see his mistakes that make his interpretation impossible. Show him his mistakes. You can present the Pre-Wrath Rapture better than Petro because you understand the flaws I have pointed out making his interpretation wrong. Try to get Petro to agree with you on your theory. He can't present his so see if he will accept yours. He won't because he would have to admit he made mistakes. Call him out and see what happens.

I think Petro will be afraid to debate you on your theory. By doing so he would expose the fact that his interpretation must be wrong. Petro only wants to bash the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. He certainly doesn't want to discuss the Pre-Wrath Rapture with you because you will present a different interpretation than he has and expose his flaws just like I have.

You and I can debate soon but I would like to see where you place certain events like the Rapture and the Second Coming.

I would love to see you debate Petro on the Pre-Wrath Rapture. I'd love to hear you ask Petro why he won't discuss a theory he believes. I'd love to hear you ask Petro why he is only willing to bash the Pre-Trib. Rapture but not willing to defend his Pre-Wrath Rapture when its been proven wrong.

Please, Please, Please! I ask you to put these questions and any others to Petro. Ask him why he's playing poker. We may disagree between you and I but we both agree Petro is wrong. He figures that by bashing me he'll be able to avoid dealing with the flaws of his interpretation. Does that seem fair? He'll never challenge you because you will prove him wrong. All he does is challenge me. He is trying to discredit me because I have proven his interpretation is wrong. You know it, I know it, Petro knows it and everybody reading knows it. Whether or not people agree with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is irrelevant to what Petro is doing. Does it seem fair to you that Petro keeps bashing a theory when you can see the flaws of his theory that he refuses to address?

If Petro was doing this to any of you and I was witnessing it I'd speak up and make a challenge. I would not allow Petro to play his game of attacking any of you while refusing to discuss the flaws presented against his interpretation which he refuses to discuss.

I'm amazed everybody is just ignoring this. Isn't anybody insulted that Petro thinks we are all stupid? Nobody cares that he's playing his poker like game? Nobody cares that he refuses to discuss his theory but attacks others freely? Nobody thinks Petro owes us an explaination? Should Petro get a free pass when he refuses to state his beliefs for fear of being proven wrong?

I don't know what surprizes me the most, Petro's game or the People who allow him to play it.

Come on people, don't just sit back and watch, say something! Please!

I'll show you how to do it.

Petro, why don't you respond to what EddieLee has posted about the Pre-Wrath Rapture? Is EddieLee wrong Petro or do you agree. Whats the differnce between your theory Petro and the theory EddieLee has presented so far?

Are we having fun yet?

Paul2 8)

Quote from: sincereheart on April 10, 2004, 12:18:34 PM

Is taunting the topic of this thread? ???

No, the topic of this thread is Petro's flawed interpretation of the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the fact that all he does is attack the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and anyone who believes it.

Don't like my taunting, talk to Petro. You haven't had to put up with this for months, I have. I wish I didn't need to post any of these last posts but what choice do I have? Remain silent and allow Petro to play his poker type game?

Sorry but thats not an option for me. Petro continues to bash the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and won't address his private interpretation of the Pre-Wrath Rapture will he? He's keeping his theory a secret while attacking others and their theories. Before you cast your judgement you might want to look at the "best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" starting at page 20 and see how this all began.

Take a look at who's thread Petro posts his arguements on. My thread so don't be surprized if I respond. If he wants to play his game on my thread these are the results he can expect. Petro can post whatever he wants to but I'm going to respond on my thread to his little game he's playing.

I'm not willing to allow Petro to continue to bash the Pre-Trib. theory and fool people into believing he has answer but has chosen to keep them a secret. If he wants to attack he should be willing to defend also.

Sorry this thread seems to offend you but the ball is in Petro's court. He makes the decision to keep attacking the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I make the decision to point out the fact that he won't present or defend his Pre-Wrath theory which I exposed as not possible.

I suppose You think I should allow poor Petro to just keep attacking me even though I have proved his theory is flawed. Does that seem fair to you? If Petro has decided to put himself into this situation why should anyone not expect me to point these things out?

What makes Petro so special that he should be allowed to attack my interpretation on my thread? Why can't I point out the fact that Petro refuses to discuss his theory which I have proven flawed. He attacks repeatedly but nobody says anything about the fact that he is not willing to present or defend his position. Petro is playing a game. Read his words.

Petro should be able to defend himself if he wants to attack others and their position constantly. He shouldn't need you to stick up for him when he put himself here.

You seem to want to allow Petro to play his game with everybody and be able to attack everybody, and never address his theory which has been proven to be flawed.

You can feel bad for Petro if you want to. Petro put himself into the situation and only Petro can get himself out of it. He doesn't want to stop his attacks so don't expect me to sit back and just watch him take shots at the Pre-Trib. position when Petro won't take a stand and tell us what he believes.

Petro chose to play his game with me, I just call it as I see it.

Sorry you don't like my responces but I not sorry I'm responding. I call a "spade" a "Spade" to use poker terms.

Paul2 8)

Quote from: AJ on April 09, 2004, 03:48:42 PM

What do you guys think about this...

Chapter 12

Who are the Woman and Her Children?

http://www.restoringthevision.com/Ch12RtheV.htm (http://www.restoringthevision.com/Ch12RtheV.htm)

Like he said... i think this is the key to the Rapture...ive been studying this for two years now and i still dont have it all understood. I do agree with at least 95% of what this guy has to say but not all. As im still studying it :)

God Bless

AJ

aj,

The article at the site you have pointed out is well presented and very good. This person connects scripture to scripture in a carefully thought out and meticulous way, I enjoyed reading it.

The conclusion, that the first fruits are raptured, before the main harvest is what creates a problem for all postisions;

The pre tribbers will accuse God, of being unfair and unjust if any believers are left to go thru the Great Tribulation, so they place a rapture before, even the signs, which are given to believers as a source of comfort, while the Mid Tribbers reject a the pre trib rapture, they also teach the marriage union of the church to Christ during the Great Tribulation which we agree is the last half of the tribulation period, while pre wrath futurists reject both because it excludes what are clearly members of the church the body of Christ, as being excluded from the union to Christ, for that reason the rapture taught by both camps is not viewed as what is taught in scripture;

And that is that all who belong to Christ are members of the church and more particular members of His body.

And if being made perfect means being united with Christ, then how does one reconcile, the scriptures, more particular;

Heb 11
40 ....................That they without us should not be made perfect.

speaking of all the men of FAITH listed in this chapter at Heb 11??

It actually brings me back to my core questions which I have been asking from the very begining of Paul2's thread on the pre trib rapture.

Who are the called chosen elect saints?? and

Are these, members of the church or not??

If not what scriptures can anyone post which proves they are not??

As you can see if you go back to the begining of Paul2's thread, this has never been addressed, a feeble attempt was made at one point, but beyond that no effort has been made to reconcile any ideas, thoughts or theories to the pre trib position.

At one point their misunderstanding of Rev 12, to mean national Israel, brought the discussion to a standstill.

I agree with most everything this person who wrote the article stated, and I really appreciate the scriptures he ties together solidly, however, identifying who the members of the church are is of the utmost importance before rendering a conclusion who is and isn't left out of the wedding union, and when it occurs.

The rapture will not precede the signs given at 2 Th 2:3, and neither will it be after pouring out of Gods Wrath upon the earth.

This article reminded of two things,

1. That Jesus reminded the apostles while discoursing with them at the mount of olives (Mat 24), that "there shall not an hair of your head perish." Lk 21:18

Yet all of them were martyred for their FAITH in HIM.

and;

2. That Gods will is that none perish, but that all should come to repentance...........

Some of us Christians, seem to believe God says we will not go through tribulation, nor Satans wrath, which is clear some of the saints will experience that wrath during the tribulation,
pre tribbers even accusing God, of being a butcher, (as some have of the other thread) for putting NT saints thru tribulation.

I think what they are really offended at, is the idea that they may have to experience the great tribulation, it doesn't seem to matter to them, some of the brethern will, after all they will be happily attending a wedding ceremony, while other saints are on the earth running and hiding for their lives.

Any scriptures which will help this thread along are welcome.

ut please no more theories.

Blessings,

Petro

I would

Quote from: AJ on April 10, 2004, 03:51:13 PM

Hi Paul2 :) I see all your work.. and it is good to have people trying to figger out the rapture...and putting all this work in to it..Anyway i have a question, you say the Church is in heaven when John is called up... what day did John say he was in the spirit when he was taken to heaven? Is it not the lords day? It wouldnt be hard to see the Church in heaven on the lords day..since this is the day the lord comes to take the Antichrist and fight his armys.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Now you also say this trumpet is the rapture trumpet. Correct? If this is the rapture trumpet then he heard it on the lords day...how am i doing so far?

The Trumpet of Revelation 4:1 is the voice of Jesus Christ. Let me post the verse and explain it.

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

The first thing the we need to remember is the trumpet is really the voice of Christ. The voice of Christ does two things in this verse. First it calls John to the Lord's day in spirit. 2nd and most importantly it ends the period "of the things which are", the church age and begins "the things which must be hereafter." I'll post more on this at the bottom of the page.

Quote

So what does Jesus do at this trumpet on the lords day ...wait in the sky till the Antichrist sets himself up 3 1/2 years into the great tribulation... and then come to fight his armys? Because this is what he would need to do in order to come before the 7 year Trib.

I don't understand what your asking or saying. You'll have to clarify what you mean.

I've done alot of work related to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture interpretation of the thread titled "The best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages. On the first page of the thread I put some foundational information you should take time to read if your really interested. I'll give you a sample copied from that thread.

Welcome to Pre-Tribulation Rapture 101:

First lets start at the book of Revelation. John was given a format to follow in writing the book and we are given a format to follow when reading the book. If you do not follow the format of the book you will surely misinterpret the context.

Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

"Write the things which thou hast seen," What had he seen? The vision of Chapter 1. This is past tense. Stay with me this is really quite simple.

"and the things which are" What are the things which are? The seven letters to the seven Churches, Church things, the Church age. What is Jesus doing in the seven letters to the Churches? Jesus is walking, not sitting between the seven lamp stands, Jesus is judging His Church. This is present tense. Jesus is still judging His Church. This is still an on going action. He warned the seven Churches and he has judged the literal seven churches the letters were adderessed to because the lay in ruins today. The seven letters are also for us. We are being judged. The letters to philidelphia and Laodicea are also prophetic Letters to the church on earth now. Philidelphia is to be Raptured. Laodicea has doctinal errors causing it to be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture and its becomes the harlot of Revelation 17.

We are living in the period of time between Chapter 1 and Chapter 4. This is Christs Church program, present tense.

Lets look at the key verse again and finish this up shall we:

Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

and the things which shall be hereafter; HERE AFTER WHAT? THE CHURCH! WE started with a vision, you'll notice some part of the vision in each of the seven letters, Then came the Seven letters which is Christ Speaking to His Church and actively judging it. The Church is still here and the seven letters still apply to us. At the Rapture Jesus completes the judgement of the Church. The dead and the living Church are judged. Laodicea is vomited out into the Tribulation. WE are still in the time period of the things which are.

and the things which shall be hereafter; Here after is future tense. After the Rapture and the Church is judged. This is the beginning of the tribulation period.

Now we need to find where the part of the verse and the things which shall be hereafter; fits in.

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Ok now put it all together. we left off at the seven letters and Christ judging His Church. we are living during "the things which are" present tense. This present period must end before "the things which must be hereafter" can begin. There must be an end of the Church age before the tribulation period can begin.

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is the Rapture! Theres your trumpet, Its the voice of Jesus. This open door is the same open door in the letter to the church of Philidephia, the Raptured church of those who were alive at the Rapture.

This event in Chapter 4:1 is the Rapture and that event is what closes out the Age of Grace and the Church and Allows "the things which must be hereafter.to begin. The opening of the seven sealed scroll begins the tribulation, we are in heaven witnessing Jesus take the scroll from the Father. We are not destined for wrath. We are going to a Wedding.

This is just one reason for pre-Tribulation Rapture but I'll keep adding on evidence as time permits me.

The Pre-Trib View by Paul2 8)

AJ, lets move over to the best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" thread to continue this discussion. There you will be able to go back through my posts and quote me directly. I'm interested in studing with you if you want to understand how the Pre-Tribulation Rapture interpretation works.

Paul2

Petro, Petro, Petro,

Are you trying to take over this thread to with your no theories rules? You truely never cease to amaze me. This is my thread Petro just as the "best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture" is my thread. There are 333 reply's on that thread and 30 on this one as of now. I know this must disturb you.

You could start your own thread and make the rules and even lock the thread. You could ask me not to post on your thread and I wouldn't. I don't mind you debating on my threads but I do resent you trying to control me and my thread.

The reason you are on my threads is because this is where the action is. You don't want to have your own thread because the people you want to reach are on my threads. You've made it your mission to attack the Pre-Trib. Rapture, anyone who believes it and most importantly keeping us from being able to effectively teach our interpretation.

I think another reason you don't start your own thread is because attacking the Pre-Trib. Rapture is what you do. If you were to start your own Pre-Wrath Rapture page it would be boring because you never present the Pre-Wrath interpretation. You don't even know how it works.

I can explain how my theory and interpretation work but you don't like my methods, too bad. I've seen where your method of study has left you unable to address when the effects of the 7 vials of God's Wrath take place on the earth in relation to the Rapture, the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week. I presented some facts using Scripture but you won't address them.

You see us Pre-Tribbers as you call us as a threat and thats why your here.

Stop trying to control me and my threads Petro. If you want to be in control then start your own threads. If you want to post on my threads don't try to control them.

You have a theory Petro and not facts. Fact of the matter is you can't present your facts or your theory. You claim to search for truth and facts but never seem to search out the "facts"and truth in my 4 part explaination of why your "theory" doesn't work.

Fair is fair in love and debate! You want to attack then learn how to defend!

Paul2 8)

AJ,

If you want to know something about the Pre-Tribulation interpretation ask me and I'll try to answer your question.

Petro is hardly a relieable source on the subject. Petro can't explain his own Pre-Wrath theory never mind explain the Pre-Tribulation theory. Don't take Petro's word for things but start at page one of the "best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages" thread and read the debates for yourself. Petro is not very objective in the spin he puts on what he calls my Feeble attempts.

Want to talk about feeble... The last time I made a "feeble attempt" It took me about 3 hours to destroy Petro's Pre-Wrath interpretation after months of trying to drag enough information about how his theory works out of him. Petro's theory fell like a house made of cards. Petro used the poker analagy so I thought I throw in my house of cards analagy. 8)

Petro fears me and my teachings because I'm willing to explain my how my interpretation works and he can't. He'll claim its because of my methods but Petro can't explain and present how his theory works he doesn't want to allow anybody who can. Wait and see if Petro will engage in debate with EddieLee who is presenting the Pre-Wrath interpretation. EddieLee has understood the flaws with Petro's Pre-Wrath theory but I think Petro will be afraid to debate it for fear of his theory being proven wrong by somebody other than me.

I'm not telling you what to think, Petro does that. I'm just letting you know that Petro is never going to give you anything positive about me. Don't judge me by what Petro says, judge me by what I say and have said. Petro wants to discredit me so people like you won't listen to what I have to say. Read my posts and judge them for yourself. You will also find 2nd timothys posts and Black-Eyed-Peas' post to be informative. I suggest taking some time and reading thru all of the posts. I know its a ton of posts enough to fill a book but there is a ton of debate and information which you may find fascinating if not informative.

If you have any questions I'll try to give you answers. Petro won't like my answers but your not Petro. Give me the chance to explain the Pre-Tribulation theory before you totally reject it. See if I can present a reasonable case.

Petro will probably send you a private message instructing you what to ask me but thats ok. I'll answer you but Petro needs to answer the first 5 posts on this thread before continueing with me. Petro would have you believe that I'm not willing to address certain issues but Petro is once again wrong. I'll discuss anything you want just ask but be prepared for my answers. I don't allow people to limit how I respond. Many things must be considered and I'll point them out as I go along. To understand the Pre-Wrath Rapture requires the most study and the most work. All Scripture must be considered.

Its up to you AJ. I don't know what you want to do. If your interested in how the Pre-Trib. interpretation works just ask.

I do look forward to discussing things with you.

Paul2 8)

I'm willing to discuss anything you want to discuss.

Paul2 8)

AJ and anyone interested,

I've given the reply #s to some of posts from the "Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages. If anyone wants to know what I've said go there and read them for yourself. I wish poeple would read the whole thread but nobody ever does.

It may seem like it will take a long time to read the posts I've have selected but it doesn't take long at all. If you want to understand the Pre-Tribulation interpretation then take some time to go thru these posts.

I suggest opening another web page and going to the "Best of Paul2's Pre-Tribulation Rapture pages" and keeping this page open also so you can switch between them. Look up a post # and switch to that thread and read it and switch back to find another post # ect...

Thats the same way I made this post with the numbers only in reverse order. It really doesn't take to long.

Take a look at these posts :replies Read the first post which has no number and then #s 1-8, and #14, which are all on the first page, My computer crashed after post # 14 and I didn't get it fixed until # 46 on page 4. 2nd Timothy carried the study and debate from the end of the first page in my absence. Well worth the read by the way.

Check out reply #52, #58, both on page 4.

Check out reply #62, #66, #68, #69, all on page 5.

#77, #79, on page 6. Post #79 deals with questions you have already asked. Other post do also but I forgot to keep track of them while I was making this list, Sorry. I remembered #79 and if you read the rest you'll find many more posts that deal with many issues, some you have raised.

#96, #97,#98, #99, #100, #101, #102, #103, #104 all found on page 7

#116, on page 8

#121, on page 9, #147, #159, #162, on page 11

#167, on page 12, #180, on page 13, #235 on page 16

#240, #242, on page 17, #270, and then post #274 when I first began asking Petro to address the wrath of God on page 19.

How much do you want to know? There a wealth of information on these posts listed above and many others that I've not listed. I stongly recommend you read the posts of 2nd Timothy and Black-eyed-Peas also.

I don't know where you stand or what you believe but before casting your judgement of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture you really should read the posts to understand the interpretation. Hope this can be helpful to anyone interested.

Paul2 8)

Quote from: Paul2 on April 10, 2004, 08:10:17 PM

paully,

Yolu took the liberty to put my name on this thread, so I guess this makes it my thread just as much as it is yours.

So, I say you just have to live with it.....

Blessings,

Petro

To whoever: Reading on my thread...........

Pretribulationists, equate Matthew 24:9 with the fifth seal judgment as stated in Revelation 6:9–11.
This is exactly the understanding of pretribulationism.

Pre warth rapture supporters agree, tribulation occurs in both the 1st half and the 2d half of Daniels seventieth week, what is disputed is that not all the tribulation is Gods wrath.

Yet if the tribulation in Matthew 24:9 is "wrath of God"—then it would provide another item that contradicts the pre tribulation theory, and rejects a principle scripture that helps understrand when this wrath of God begins
A cursory reading of a Greek concordance reveals that the word "tribulation" (thlipsis) is used in prophetic contexts to refer to both the first and second halves of the seventieth week of Daniel.
Matthew 24:9, which chronologically relates to the first half of the seventieth week as evidenced by its preceding the midpoint of the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15-21) states:
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted [thlipsis *2347 Strong's Comparative Concordance, as tribuation], and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.[/color]
Clearly the biblical text describes the first half of the seventieth week as a time of tribulation.
Is this tribulation wrath of God?? According to pre tribbers it is, and this is where they make their left turn, which leads them to error.

The second half of the seventieth week is also described as a time of tribulation.
2 Th1:6 uses the Greek word thlipsis *2347 Strong's Comp. Concordance, as tribulation] while referring to the second coming of Christ which occurs during the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel, note;:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation [thlipsis] to them that trouble you;

"Therefore, it is proper and even biblical to refer to, and even describe, the seventieth week of Daniel as "The Tribulation," or "A Time of Tribulation." (John McLean, "Chronology and Sequential Structure of John's Revelation" in Thomas Icxe Timothy Demy, eds., When The Trumpet Sounds (Harvest House Publishers, 1995), p. 341.) "

But notice that this tribulation is not of God and not, just upon the Jews, as pre tribbers would have one believe, this is tribulation brought about by the wrath of the Satan, who is wroth with the woman; after being cast out of heaven;

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12;12

Rev 12; tells us;
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

which is stated again at;

Rev 13
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So these afflictions (tribulations) brought about by Satan upon Gods people, occur before and after the mid point of Daniel's seventieth week, are to be recompensed by the LORD at His Second Coming.

When is this according to 1 Cor 15?

When He comes with all His Saints (1 Th 3:13), but note carefully;

1 Cor 15
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Here at this, verse 23 those that sleep in Christ shall be made alive at His coming, after the apostasy, the pre trib position rejects this out of hand, since they place the second coming of Christ before the begining of the Tribulation, even agree that His second coming is at the mid trib.....go figure??

I am not mid trib, but clearly, the mid trib position is closer to the truth of scripture than the pre trib.

Blessings,

Petro

I am not mid trib, but clearly, the mid trib position is closer to the truth of scripture than the pre trib.

Hi Petro :) Let me try to explain my Mid-Trib view Rev chapter 12 is where Michael i think Stands Up and fights Satan for trying to kill the man child of the woman... the man child is taken to heaven and the woman is led by angels or taken by angels to a place of safety. Some scripture on the man child.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
Isa 66:6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Now some on the woman... their is all kinds of scripture in the old testament for this woman...we need to use the Bible to interpret the Bible as much as we can.

Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This woman represents Jerusalem and her children.

God is going to talk to this woman face to face in the wilderness

Eze 20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
Eze 20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Eze 20:36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

The man child is raptured...caught up to God

The woman is the one i think Paul spoke of.. we who are ALIVE and remain... resurrection.

Praise the lord.. i hope we are part of this manchild or woman or we will likely have to overcome by the blood of the lamb..which is not so bad is it...

God bless

aj,

I dont' see, how you tie the mid tribulation rapture to what you have written, however;

Here is a verse that pretty well sets the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, in concrete;

1 Cor 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Now, this cannot be speaking of the end of the millenial reign of Christ on the earth becuase, Paul includes himself himself, in verses 51 and 52, whehn he says ; "We shall not all sleep" and then follows it up by stating "we shall be changed" In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

And above all else, it is understood His Saints will reign with HIM, and rule the nations..............

But note the last trumpet at verse 52, how do you reconcile the idea of a mid trib rapture to this passage, clearly this passage refers to the 7th Trumpet of Rev 11:14-19.

The return of Christ to the earth is the Thrid Woe for the nations and unbelievers.

Notice closely;

Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Th 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[/b]
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(at verse 16, what I emboldened is exactly the words used at the Greek English Interlinear, NT)

The Prophet Joel at;

2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand..................

The trumpet of 1 Th 4:16 is the same trumpet of 1 Cor 15:52, and Joel 2, announcing the coming KING.

Consider Rev 11, above at verse;

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshipped God, KJV
17 saying "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.ESB
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.KJV

How about Isaiah's prophecies;

Isaiah 27
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the river Euphrates to the Brook of Egypt, the Lord will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel.
13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out of the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the Holy Mountain at Jerusalem. ESB

The nations were angry"............... is once more a reference to that messianic Psalm 2, therefore, his wrath has come, Isa 34:2.

"Walvoord]/b] points out that the same Greek word (Gr. verb form of orge) is used for angry and wrath, the wrath of men is wicked, the wrath of God is holy."

Zepheniah says concerning the wrath of God

Zep 14
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

There is many more verses I could post which prove the Day of the Lord, Day of Christ, the Second Coming of Christ are the same day, and it is the same day that He gathers those that sleep in Him from the four corners of heaven and those that remain on the earth, it beings with a shout from the Arch Angel and the sound of a Loud Trumpet.

And clearly it is not at the mid point of Daniels 70th week.

Blessings,

Petro

PS.

Jesus put this day in perstpective at Mat 24:37-38, just as Noah entered the Arch and God closed the door to the Arch, the rains that destroyed the earth, began, and it rained forty days and forty nights.

Verse 39, at Mat 24, defines that day as the one of 1 Th 5:4, 2 Th 1:10, 2 Th 2:3, according to what Jesus said, at Mat 24:29

Luke 17, .....................says;
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.

Yes, I know this is hard to believe, (for some), that the creator of the heavens and the earth might be limited by time to accomplish what He has written to occur in one day, but what can I say, it is written, that pretty well settles it, so far as I am concerned.

Why twist words to make it say other things..

Petro

Quote from: AJ on April 12, 2004, 02:28:47 AM

Thats correct :) The man child is caught up to God at the mid point with no trumpet...the woman is protected here on earth for 3 1/2 years...she goes with the last trump, she will be the only one left ...as the man child is gone, and the rest of the saints are killed. Understand now?

Praise the lord Petro im still studying it.

God bless you

aj,

No, actually you have confused me moreso,

It seems as thou you are saying, the woman is the church, and so is the man child, He (He meaning; part of the church is raptured) and the rest of the church is left behind.

How do you connect the Woman being one and the same as the Man child??

Gal 4, says;
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This same heavenly Jerusalem is mentioned as the bride at;

Rev 21
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

As I understahnd it, the church is a great mystery, please note this scripture;

Eph 5
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

It is clear to me, that the union of the church and Christ have not occured at Rev 12.

So to consider them as one and same at the point of Rev 12, is not scriptural.

On the other hand if there is any truth, that wedding occurs after the rapture, and before His coming, then this might be considered as a viable conclusion.

If the rapture occurs at the shortening of the days of the great tribulation (this is Pre Wrath as opposed to Post Trib, since it occurs imediately before the end of the Great Trib, His return is imediately after the Tribulation of those days.) and the union to Christ is celebrated (no saints, who are members of his body, of his flesh and of His bones is left out),

This is the central point of debate, between Pre Tribulationist together with Mid Tribulationists and the Pre Wrath Rapture position, they (pre and mid tribbers) are unable to include all who are members of the body of Christ, with the rapture and the wedding feast union to Christ in their theory.

It seems they selectively exclude, those who obviouly are members of the church, the body of Chrisr by placing the rapture before the signs and time appointed.

And all because rather then accepting what is written, just as it is written, they twist, stretch, and mis interpret words, written for their own edification.

As you can see go so far to interpret apostasy for rapture....

Is that deception or what??

Blessings,

Petro

Quote from: Petro on April 13, 2004, 11:28:11 AM

Quote from: AJ on April 12, 2004, 02:28:47 AM

No brother I said I didnt know if the woman or manchild are the church...i said i hope the church is part of one or the other...if not... the church may go trough the Great trib to do exploits...for Daniel says the saints will turn many to righteousness at this time..., I gave a lot of concrete scripture to show my point, no attempt at deception involved.
I dont use Matthew to interpret Matthew or the Book of Revelation to interpret the Book of Revelation unless I need to. There are all kinds of prophetic scripture in the OT for the end times, if you dont use them, you will miss it.

Quote

And all because rather then accepting what is written, just as it is written, they twist, stretch, and mis interpret words, written for their own edification.

As you can see go so far to interpret apostasy for rapture....

Is that deception or what??

If a man gives you meat, try not to choke on it

God bless

Quote

posted by aj,

No brother I said I didnt know if the woman or manchild are the church...i said i hope the church is part of one or the other...if not... the church may go trough the Great trib to do exploits...

aj,

Sorry, I don't see, where you said this, but if you meant to say it, I never gathered it that way.

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for Daniel says the saints will turn many to righteousness at this time...,

Jesus when praying to the father, said this;

Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: .......................... (John 17:1-21)

I have taken the time to emboldened key words in the passage.

There is really no need to quote Him further, since He has said everything there needs to be said about those who will be raptured, right here in these verses.

Your attention is invited to verse 21, .....Notice who the "they" are.

They are ONE in both the Father and the Son, and they are His members, the Body of believing Saints, who will be kept from the evil, vs 15, and HE shall raise them up at the last day, vs 2 and Jhn 10:28.

Today by the word of the faithful testimony of the Jesus, many are made righteous because they have been given faith of Jesus, to believe yet those who testify, as well as those who believe die a natural or other type of death or are killed for their faith, but that doesn't matter they (and God knows who they are, whom He has given to Jesus) will ALL be raised at Jesus Second Coming.

The English word Coming in reference to the "Coming of the Lord" is translated 'Advent' in the Latin, and originates as 'Parousia' in the original Greek. There is no distinction between Advent and Parousia because they are used to represent the same thing.

The Greek wordcoming from 1 Thes. 4:15... is translated in each of the following, thusly;

GREEK
"touto gar umin legomen en logw kuriou oti hmeiV oi zwnteV oi perileipomenoi eiV thn Parousian tou kuriou ou mh fqaswmen touV koimhqentaV"

ENGLISH
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the (parousia/advent) Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

LATIN
"hoc enim vobis dicimus in verbo Domini quia nos qui vivimus qui residui sumus in Adventum Domini non praeveniemus eos qui dormierunt"

At 2 Thessalonians 2:1 the same word is translated in the three languages as follows;

GREEK
"erwtwmen de umaV adelfoi uper thV ParousiaV tou kuriou hmwn ihsou cristou kai hmwn episunagwghV ep auton"

ENGLISH
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the (parousia/advent) Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

LATIN
"rogamus autem vos fratres per Adventum Domini nostri Iesu Christi et nostrae congregationis in ipsum"

At Matthew 24:3 : the same word is once again transalted; from the Greek;

GREEK
"kaqhmenou de autou epi tou orouV twn elaiwn proshlqon autw oi maqhtai kat idian legonteV eipe hmin pote tauta estai kai ti to shmeion thV shV ParousiaV kai thV sunteleiaV tou aiwnoV"

ENGLISH
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy (parousia/advent) Coming, and of the end of the world?"

LATIN
"sedente autem eo super montem Oliveti accesserunt ad eum discipuli secreto dicentes dic nobis quando haec erunt et quod signum Adventus tui "et consummationis saeculi"

Cont'd..........................

At Mat 24:27, the same word;

GREEK
"wsper gar h astraph exercetai apo anatolwn kai fainetai ewV dusmwn outwV estai kai h Parousia tou uiou tou anqrwpou"

ENGLISH
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the (parousia/advent) Coming of the Son of man be.

LATIN
"sicut enim fulgur exit ab oriente et paret usque in occidente ita erit et Adventus Filii hominis"

Now the verses that I have given you which contain the word coming, Advent and Parousia are clearly, referring to the one and only Second Coming of the Lord, now consider these following verses:

In English:
1Thess 4
15 ........we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord.........

1Thess 4
17 .....we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

According to these two verses the coming in verse 15 is based on the Greek word Parousia which is also used to describe the Lord's Second Coming in Matthew 24.

Pretribulationists adamantly say that "Second Advent" is a separate event from the rapture and that we should not confuse the rapture with the Second Coming of the Lord - the Second Advent.

Mid Trbulationists thou they have the order correct, have the timing wrong, this disagrees with scripture, because it is before the time appointed, by making the rapture occur before the end of the great tribulation, they leave many Christian members of the body of Christ out of the Blessed Hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)

But just by looking at 1Thes 4:15 & 17 in English, one can clearly see it refers to the rapture occuring at His Second Coming.

Now consider the Greek and the Latin, in these verses, again:

Note: (I will only post the pertinent words)

Greek:
1Thes 4:15 .......we which are alive and remain unto the Parousia..

1Thes 4:17 .......we which are alive and remain shall be Harpadzo.......

Latin:
1Thes 4:15 .......we which are alive and remain unto the Adventum..

1Thes 4:17 ........we which are alive and remain shall be
Rapiemur..

So what can be learned from this??

The Second Coming (or Advent or Parousia) occurs at the same time as the (Rapiemur or Harpazo or "rapture")

We can understand in a logical sequential order the line of thought that Paul began in 1Thes 4:15 which says;

.............we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord..........

which includes 1Thes 4:17 which then says;

......we which are alive and remain shall be caught up[raptured together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is only one Second Coming of the Lord Jesus, at His Coming Christians will be raptured. together with the resurrection of those who sleep in Him, it happens at the Last Trumpet (1 Cor 15:52) which is defined in the Book of Revelation as the Seventh Trumpet (Rev 11:15).

This means that Christians (unless, of course one dies) must be here for the previous six Trumpets and that means the Antichrist comes first before Jesus and the rapture event.

Notice;

2Thes 2,

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (which is a parallel passage to 1Thes. 4:17)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Paul's own words devastate any rapture theory which comes before , the Great Apostasy and the Antichrist being revealed.

What I have pointed out is a clear reference to the rapture occuring at the Second Coming of the Lord and not in any "secret rapture" or "mid point rapture" which excludes some members of the church.

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I gave a lot of concrete scripture to show my point, no attempt at deception involved.
I dont use Matthew to interpret Matthew or the Book of Revelation to interpret the Book of Revelation unless I need to. There are all kinds of prophetic scripture in the OT for the end times, if you dont use them, you will miss it.

aj,

Sorry, I don't see, where you said this either, your statements seem to be generalized, but thats ok, I have given you some meat to consider.

Praise Him, and God Bless you, keep studying, no one can go wrong doing it.

Most importantly, pray for wisdom and understanding, that is the key.

Blessings,
Petro

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Theology => Prophecy - Current Events => Topic started by: Paul2 on April 08, 2004, 12:12:40 AM