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  I'll post some of my Pre-Tribulation Rapture studies here that I'm coping from different debates in other topics so they can be easily found for those interested in the subject. I had many, many pages that were lost when the site was crashed. I'm going to save the best new files on hard drive just in case. I lost hours and hours of studies on the Rapture so I'll start again.

     This first post is from a debate with Prophecyjax1 who believes in a Mid Tribulation Rapture.

     First let me say I'm not trying to convince you personally.
You are making bold statements that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is False. I disagree and will explain why only it will take a serious amount of effort to address all the issues. To solve a mystery you must be come a detective and search ALL the evidence. Your theory sounds easy enough in the beginning but when all evidence is considered it fails. Most people don't want to study deep enough to examine all the evidence required to correctly solve the mystery of the Rapture.

    I'll start laying out evidence for the benifit of those who read this to show that your not unchallenged as you claim.

    Its to bad the site crashed for much of this frame work was already layed out once but what can you do?

   Welcome to Pre-Tribulation Rapture 101:

    First lets start at the book of Revelation. John was given a format to follow in writing the book and we are given a format to follow when reading the book. If you do not follow the format of the book you will surely misinterpret the context.

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

"Write the things which thou hast seen," What had he seen? The vision of Chapter 1. This is past tense. Stay with me this is really quite simple.

"and the things which are" What are the things which are? The seven letters to the seven Churches, Church things, the Church age. What is Jesus doing in the seven letters to the Churches? Jesus is walking, not sitting between the seven lamp stands, Jesus is judging His Church. This is present tense. Jesus is still judging His Church. This is still an on going action. He warned the seven Churches and he has judged the literal seven churches the letters were adderessed to because the lay in ruins today. The seven letters are also for us. We are being judged. The letters to philidelphia and Laodicea are also prophetic Letters to the church on earth now. Philidelphia is to be Raptured. Laodicea has doctinal errors causing it to be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture and its becomes the harlot of Revelation 17.

   We are living in the period of time between Chapter 1 and Chapter 4. This is Christs Church program, present tense.

   Lets look at the key verse again and finish this up shall we:

 Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


and the things which shall be hereafter; HERE AFTER WHAT? THE CHURCH! WE started with a vision, you'll notice some part of the vision in each of the seven letters, Then came the Seven letters which is Christ Speaking to His Church and actively judging it. The Church is still here and the seven letters still apply to us. At the Rapture Jesus completes the judgement of the Church. The dead and the living Church are judged. Laodicea is vomited out into the Tribulation. WE are still in the time period of the things which are.

and the things which shall be hereafter;  Here after is future tense. After the Rapture and the Church is judged. This is the beginning of the tribulation period.

    Now we need to find where the part of the verse and the things which shall be hereafter; fits in.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Ok now put it all together. we left off at the seven letters and Christ judging His Church. we are living during "the things which are" present tense. This present period must end before "the things which must be hereafter" can begin. There must be an end of the church age before the tribulation period can begin.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
     
This is the Rapture! Theres your trumpet, Its the voice of Jesus. This open door is the same open door in the letter to the church of Philidephia, the Raptured church of those who were alive at the Rapture.

    This event in Chapter 4:1 is the Rapture and that event is what closes out the Age of Grace and the Church and Allows "the things which must be hereafter.to begin. The opening of the seven sealed scroll begins the tribulation, we are in heaven witnessing Jesus take the scroll from the Father. We are not destined for wrath. We are going to a Wedding.

   This is just one reason for pre-Tribulation Rapture but I'll keep adding on evidence as time permits me.

                                           The Pre-Trib View by Paul2 8)

  Old Timer is right. The seven letters to the seven churches of Revelation are Three fold.
    First they were letters to the Seven real churches in those locations of that time period.
   Second they are letters to the universal church of the age of Grace. They contain a message for each person who is Christian.
   Third they represent the different time periods of the Church until the Rapture.

   We are in the time period of two churches in the letters of Revelation now. Philidelphia is the true church of the age now.
Philidelphia will be Raptured. Laodicea is the false church of the age now. Laodicea will be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture to enter into the Tribulation as the whore of Revelation 17. Laodicea is a false Church that professes Christianity and Jesus but distorts the truth of the Gospel. They can not be digested into the body of Christ and must be vomited out.

    The true Church of Philidelphia is the church that gives out the word of God. Old Timer used the passage of the wedding feast. When the door was shut. To the church of Philidelphia the Door is open.

Revelation 3:7  "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
   8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
   9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
  10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Philidelphia is Raptured at the voice like a trumpet from Jesus in Revelation 4:1. Laodicea is vomited out and left behind.

    Revelation 3: 14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
   15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
   16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

    The 24 Elders are the representatives of the Church Age. We are in the crowd after the Rapture and witness these events in the verses below. We are the redeemed!

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
   9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
   10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


                                         The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2  8)

The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11

    It is imporant to understand the time period of the ministry of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. At the time of their ministry (1,260 days) they are the chosen representatives for God on earth. Lets look at the scripture and then I'll explain the importance.

Revelation 11:3   "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
   4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

     The seven candlesticks mentioned in Revelation 1 are now not on earth but have been replaced by the two witnesses who are the only two people on earth with the Holy Spirit at the time of their ministry. Old testament Saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit but "led" by the Holy Spirit externally. The Only group indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the Church. The Holy Spirit started indwelling man at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture. The reason the word church is not found between chapter 3 and 22 is because the church has left earth and been Raptured. Believers during this period are called "Saints", which was also used to describe believers of old testament times. The church believers are also called Saints but theres a big difference between old testament Saints and Church Saints. Church Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, old testament Saints were not. Saints of the Tribulation will not be Holy Spirit indwelt like the Church but will be led by the Holy Spirit as in old testament times. Not all Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Thats what makes the Church unique.

     The reason the two witnesses are called lampstands is they are the only two on earth at the time of their ministry indwelt by the Holy Spirit. These are God's Ambassadors during the first half of the Tribulation or Daniels 70th week.

    Their ministry starts on the first day of Daniel's 70th week and continues until the mid week, 1260 days later. They begin their ministry on the very day the 7 year treaty with Israel is signed by Antichrist.

    How do I know that? Because Antichrist kills them at the middle of the 70th week.

 Revelation 11:7  "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

     The two witnesses are divinely protected during their Ministry. They have power and control over rain and plagues.
Anyone who tries to harm them bursts into flames. They are unstoppable until finished with their ministry of 1260 days.

    On the last day of their ministry 1260 days after the treaty between Israel and Antichrist is signed the Antichrist goes to the rebuilt Temple and is fatally wounded and healed. Antichrist now starts his 42 month reign. He declares himself God and demands worship. His first "ACT" as self proclaimed God is to kill the two witnesses. No one else had been able to silence the two prophets before but Antichrist kills them to try to deceive people into believing he is God.

 8: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
   9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
   10: And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
   11: And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


     People rejoice and love the Antichrist because he killed the two witnesses and people send gifts to each other, sort of an "AntiChristmas." The party is short lived because the bodies of the two prophets are refused burial and lie in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 Days until they are brought back to life, rise up an accend in full view of people just like Jesus.

    Why were the two witnesses denied burial for 3 1/2 days? Why are we told about the half day? The two witnesses begin their ministry at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. A normal week is 7 days long but a prophetic week is 7 years long. The two witnesses preach for 3 1/2 years or propheticlly speaking three and a half days of the 70th week. They prophetically
complete the 70th week by laying dead in the street for three and a half days prophetically completing the 70th week and are resurrected as a sign to the world that at the end of the Great Tribulation there will be resurrection. This proof of resurrection will strengthen new tribulation Saints to be willing to be beheaded rather than take the mark of the beast which will be introduced at that time. To my knowledge I'm the only person to have explained the reason for the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses are refused burial. the 70th week theory is my theory conceived of by me.

    Antichrist ends the ministry of the two witnesses at the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The two witnesses ministry of 1,260 days can not be during the reign of Antichrists 42 months. Antichrist could not claim to be all powerful God during the two witnesses ministry. If he tried to do so people would question why he was powerless to stop them. He does stop them on the Last day of their Ministry which also happens to be the first day of Antichrists 42 month reign or 1,260 days which is the last half of Daniel's 70th week.

     What does all this mean? The Church is Raptured before the 70th week of Daniel begins. God sends two witnesses to be His Prophets during the first half of the 70th week. At the middle of the week Antichrist kills them ending their ministry and begins His 1,260 days or 42 months of reign.

     At the middle of Daniel's 70th week God seals the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel and they are led to the dessert in a place God perpared for them for 1260 days.

                            The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)

Revelation 3:11   "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

     Jesus was giving the church of Philidelphia a warning. There is an imminence to the message. What Crown?

     The message to Philidelphia is also the message Jesus has for the Church living on earth at the time of the Rapture. We have a crown offered but it can be stolen by men. This crown is not Salvation but a crown of reward. There is a special crown given to those who look forward to Jesus coming for them at the Rapture. For those who love his appearing. For those who believe and expect the imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from earth.

2 Timothy 4:8   "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

      Many have tried to steal my Crown. Steal my hope of the imminate Return of the Lord to call us out of the world. To replace my hope with the Tribulation. To replace my Joy of hoping the Rapture is soon with dread that it might be in my life time. I protect my Crown like I was warned by Jesus to do.

     I have placed my faith in God"s word for he promised me this: Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    I believe Him. The Church should be expecting Christ now!
He could come at any minute. We are in the way of the treaty. Daniel's 70th week can not begin until were gone. We need to get busy for DAYS ARE SHORT. Are you ready to be Raptured or would it overtake you as a thief in the night?

    Will you receive your Crown? or will you be standing there empty handed smelling of smoke? Jesus could come at any moment. Theres nothing that must come first. The 70th week of Daniel CAN NOT begin until the Rapture has occured.

    Hold on to your crown tight and be ready to meet the Lord in the air. Let no man steal your Crown!

    I'll tackle the 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 issues on the next post.

                                          The Pre-Trib.View by Paul2   8)

   2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 is a favorite of Pre-Trib. bashers. They miss the "DAY OF CHRIST" and try to replace it with the Rapture. The "Day of Christ" is the "Wrath of the Lamb."

Lets get some background. Paul was in Thessalonica for 3 weeks and started a Church there. He sent the Church a letter known as 1 Thessalonians. He revealed to the Thessalonians the Rapture. That was the focal point of the 1st. letter.

    Paul got word that the Thessalonians were being confused by false reports being sent to them claiming that they had missed the Rapture and had entered the Day of Christ, the wrath of the Lamb, the Great Tribulation.

    Paul sends another letter to clear up the situation.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


     The Thessalonians were taught all about the Rapture and what was to follow. Verse 5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" confirms this. They received a false report claiming they had entered the Wrath of the Lamb, which is also called the Day of Christ, which is also called the Great Tribulation. They knew the Rapture was to take place first and assumed they had missed the Rapture. They were told they had entered the Great Tribulation which is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3  "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

     for that day shall not come What day shall not come? The Day of Christ, the Wrath of the Lamb, the Great tribulation. This is the day Paul is focusing on. Paul is focusing on the Day of the Wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Paul is not talking about the Rapture but the Wrath Of Christ.

     Paul is telling them that the wrath of Christ won't come until the man of sin be revealed (Antichrist). He's assuring them the wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ has not come yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:4  "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

      Now Paul tells them Antichrist is to be revealed. We know Antichrist signs the treaty with Israel to start the 70th week of Daniel, 1260 days later he is sitting in the temple claiming to be God. The Wrath of Christ can't begin until Antichrist enters the temple which he will do in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

2 Thessalonians 2:5  "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

    Paul reminds them that he had explained this before, and to beware of false messages supposedly from Paul contradicting what he had already taught them. In other words "Believe what I taught you in the first place, don't believe reports that claim you missed the Rapture and The Day of the Lambs wrath has come, The Day of Wrath can't begin until Antichrist is revealed at the signing of the seven year treaty and in the temple claiming to be God 1260 days later.

2 Thessalonians 2:6  "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
   7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


     Now Paul is telling them that Antichrist is restrained and not revealed until the restrainer is removed. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church. We are restraining Antichrist with the presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. At the Rapture the Holy Spirit will stop indwelling men and begin a different ministry of indwelling the two witnesses. When the Church is Raptured, Antichrist will be revealed and not until the Rapture.

     The "falling away" can be taken two ways, back sliding, and removal. I plan on falling away from earth to meet the Lord in the air.

2 Thessalonians 2:9   "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
   10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
"

     Antichrist is part of Gods judgment. A part of the wrath of the Lamb is allowing Antichrist to perform miracles for 42 months, the last half of Daniels 70th week. When God is sending delusions to believe lies your in the wrath of the Lamb.

     Summing it up, the Rapture is the focal point of
1 Thessalonians. The day of Christ, wrath of the Lamb, Great Tribulation is the focal point of 2 Thessalonians.

                                         The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2  8)

I have discovered your answer! Take time to read this and allow me to explain in detail.

  The answer I have found will explain John's vision in Revelation and the rapture.

   Allow me to paint a visual picture senario for you. The Rapture of true believers happens now, Bam, millions vanish, including you. The next thing you know your standing before Jesus at the bema judgement seat. Jesus judges his Church at the bema judgement and gives rewards. 24 Elders are selected by Jesus to serve in the role of priests to him. He gives them crowns and they are seated before the throne of God. We are taken into the "place he went to prepare for us " with Jesus for the wedding week, which happens to parallel Daniel's 70th week on earth. On the final day of the wedding week we are assembled before God. This is the Day of the second coming of Christ to earth.

    John on the isle of Patmos was taken to THIS day in heaven, not the day of the rapture but to the day of the second coming! The day of the lord. John arrives in heaven and witnesses the last day. He doesn't see the bema judgement, but sees the elders of the church crowned and actively serving as priests holding the prayers of the tribulation saints. John's vision was not 7 years long. It was 1 day long, the last day.

    Back to us in heaven... We are assembled on the last day and we witness all the events of John's vision with him. We have been on a honeymoon and now we are being shown what has taken place since we left earth. We are being shown some events that have already taken place but we are shown the "cause and effect". We are shown the 7 seals broken and we are shown the effects that took place as a result. We are shown the details of 7 years, Daniel's 70th week. The 7th trumpet is the last day of Daniel's 70th week. Which happens to be the day we are gathered before God's throne in heaven witnessing everything John saw.

    John speaks with an elder who has been crowned, who could that be? the Elder asks John to identify the crowd arrayed in white robes. John does not recognize them, they are not of the church. The elder reveals to John that those arrayed in white have come up from the great tribulation, they are martyred tribulation saints. They are now at the throne of God for it is the last day. The day of the lord. At the end of John's vision Christ returns to earth for the wedding feast. We are hours away from decent.

   We are gathered together for the famous final scene. We are being shown the events of the past 7 years while we were on honeymoon. The seven bowls are poured out after the 7th trumpet but the effects take place from the mid week of Daniel's 70th week on. Satan was throne from heaven at the middle of the 70th week as the effect of the 5th trumpet judgement. We are watching what is like a movie. We are shown causes and their effects and not continous chronological time pass. We are being brought up to speed on events. Right now somewhere out in space is a comet heading for earth that will be called wormwood. It is aready in motion on a head on collision course. In heaven we will see the cause of the comet, the 3rd trumpet sounding, followed by the effect of the comet on earths water. We will be seeing the past, present and future. For with God the future is as certain as the past. John's vision shows the events of seven years in macro view and micro view. we are shown series of sevens with an interlude between the 6th and 7th of a series. Then we are given more details but not chronological in order. We witness the events of 7 years, past, present and future, on the final day of the 70th week of Daniel, and then we decend to earth.

   Can you see it now? John's vision was the Last day, the day of the second coming. We were being debriefed of what has taken place since we were raptured and taken to the place prepared for us to be with Jesus for the wedding week.
   We are about to be presented as the bride of Jesus and return to earth. We are shown the battle before the battle is fought and the outcome is certain.

   This is one of the keys to the book of Revelation. The vision is not chronological in the effects of the seals, trumpets, bowls. Many events take place the same day. The middle of the 70th week is a busy day. Satan gets thrown from heaven, Antichrist is wounded and healed and then to prove he's god kills the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11. The 6th seal effect takes place on this day as well.

    We are being shown a vision. Were not in a stadium looking down watching everything live and in the present. We are witnessing past, present and future of the final 70th week of Daniel.

                                         The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)

  There are 2 types of resurrection, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto death. Are you with me so far? Good.

   The resurrection unto life is the first resurrection. Still with me? Good.

   There are three distint groups of people that will be part of the first resurrection unto life. The Church is the first group, the Old Testament Saints are second group, the Tribulation Saints are the third group.

   The Church is the first stage of the first resurrection. The church has a special destiny apart from the Old testament Saints and Tribulation Saints. The Church is the Bride of Christ and is Raptured and taken to heaven to the place prepared for us by Jesus to experience the wedding week which parallels Daniel's 70th week on earth.

   At the end of the wedding week and last day of Daniel's 70th week the second stage of the first resurrection takes place and the Martyred Tribulation Saints are resurrected.
The Old Testament Saints are resurrected, and the people who survivors of Armmegeddon are judged.

                                          The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)

   The famous seventh Trumpet announces the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus has come. This is the last day of Daniel's 70th week on earth. Notice the verse in bold type


Revelation 11:15  "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
   16: And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
   17: Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
   18: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
   19: And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

   Compare the above verses to the seventh vial passages




 17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
   18: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
   19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
   20: And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
  21: And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

     They are both the same event. The 7th trumpet is the announcement that Jesus is now beginning His kingdom, The 7th vial or bowl is the judgement plaque of the earthquake and hail.

    The 7th trumpet and the 7th vial both take place on the last day of Daniel's 70th week. Jesus is returning to earth to establish His kingdom, this is the Day of the second coming!

    John sees the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints, after he has already seen them in heaven, sort of a flash back. John is asked to identify the tribulation saints but doesn't recognize them. He might have been thinking to himself "how did they get here" and in chapter 20 he is shown how they are resurrected.

   All the events of Revelation are not chronolgical, some are but many aren't. You are getting an overview of 7 years, what takes place on earth and in heaven. John sees past, present and future, because to God its all the same. God sees our future in past tense. He has declared the outcome from the beginning. God is awesome! He reveals truth, and reveals lies.

                                         The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2  8)

I thought it was time to "resurrect" this thread again. For those of you who are new or visiting there are many worth while debates and evidence for Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. If your interested go back to the first page and read through the posts (especially Paul2's  ;) ).

     People are always refering to Matthew and the Rapture, but Matthew is focused on the Jews and the Second Coming of Christ ,not the Rapture.

     Well what about good old Dr. Luke the Gentile? Luke was written by a Gentile, Luke, to Gentiles, Greeks, with messages for Gentiles (The Church).

Luke 21:29: And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (nation of Israel), and all the trees; (the nations)
   30: When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
   31: So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
   32: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
   33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
   34: And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
   35: For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
   36: Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

     Verse 35 above makes it clear that the so called "Snare" would come on ALL (every person on planet earth) that dwells on the face of the Whole Earth. There is nobody spared, if your on planet earth at this time your snared. But wait! Theres an escape for those accounted worthy from the wrath that shall come to pass.

      Now lets analize the information we have been given:

      We are told clearly that at the time of wrath, everybody dwelling on the face of the whole earth would be snared.

      We are then told clearly, that there is an escape for those accounted worthy.

      The "escape" must be from the face of the whole earth because those who dwell on the face of the whole earth are snared.

      Who are those accounted worthy? Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, The Church.

      The "escape" is the Rapture of the Church but you must remember that this was spoken by Jesus before his death and the Church even began. The Rapture mystery is hidden here but will be revealed by the Aposle Paul for us more clearly.

    Those who do not believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture must alter the meaning of the verses by substituting the word "ESCAPE" (meaning being removed from the earth, because all who dwell upon the face of the whole earth will be snared) with the word "ENDURE" (meaning somehow the Church will make it through). If God wanted us to "endure" that would have been the word He used, but God wanted us to "Escape " from the earth and the judgments that will take place on ALL THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH, so God used the word "ESCAPE" meaning "RAPTURE", which means "to be caught up, snatched away! RESCUE!!!                  

                           The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)

Could you give an URL ?

tnx

Paul2,

I have read the first page in it entirety, carefully.

I cannot go any further until, I understand how it is you reach your conclusions, so I need to ask questions, especially since you jump from Rev 4:1, where you begin the rapture (according to your timeline), to Rev 7, I already see a problem, but first let me ask;

You said, in refering to the church at Philadelphia Rev 3:10;


(quote)"and the things which are" What are the things which are? The seven letters to the seven Churches, Church things, the Church age. What is Jesus doing in the seven letters to the Churches? Jesus is walking, not sitting between the seven lamp stands, Jesus is judging His Church. This is present tense. Jesus is still judging His Church. This is still an on going action. He warned the seven Churches and he has judged the literal seven churches the letters were adderessed to because the lay in ruins today. The seven letters are also for us. We are being judged. The letters to philidelphia and Laodicea are also prophetic Letters to the church on earth now. Philidelphia is to be Raptured. Laodicea has doctinal errors causing it to be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture and its becomes the harlot of Revelation 17.
(end  quote)

The rapture of the church at Philadelphia, I can see clearly according to your understanding is "raptured" because of ;

Rev 3
10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The word Temptation # 3986, peirasmos ; pi-ras-mos'  is defined as; by impl; adversaty:- temptation x try.

The Greek-English NT Interlinear uses the word trial in place of temptation.

I can understand trial or temptation being associated with the word tribulation.

But how do you tie the word tribulation to the word wrath??

The word tribulation is not  used in the passage used to defend the pre trib rapture , in the following passage;

1 Th 4
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

What verse of sciprutre do you use to separate the "coming of thr Lord" (vs 4:15), and "day of the Lord" (vs 5:2)??

Now, at 1 Th 5:2, the day of the Lord is what is in view here, and it is the day of wrath, (Zephania 1:14-15) spoken of in conjunction with the rapture, and clearly the day of the Lord comes  after the of the tribulation of those days, according to Mat 24:29.

Jesus never promised to keep his disciples from tribulation on the contrary he says,

"in the world ye will have tribulation"(Jhn 16:33)

but,  he does from (his) wrath (1Th5:9), and in His prayer to the Father at Jhn 17, Jesus prays;

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.  
16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.  
17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.  
18  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.  
20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

And it is clear from His words, that thru the preaching of their (His Disciples/Christians) words, there shall be others that "shall believe on ME through their word;"

But more importantly note verse 15,  ....."but that thou shouldest keep them out of the evil" (Greek-English NT Interlinear)

Not keep  them out of  wrath but the evil.  

Is there a difference between wrath and evil.....?  They are not synonomous words.

Evil is defined as: Any force action or attitude that works in opposition to God.  Student Bible Dictionary  Barbour Publish'g, Inc.

Furthermore, Notice at the fifth seal,  Rev 6:9-11,  these in "white robes" who, "came out of the great tribulation" are included with those you see as the raptured church  at  Rev 7:9-14.  

If this is so, how was it that these were left behind?, Since the rapture supposedly included every
Christian on the earth.??  And since  pre tribbers do not include those left behind who will come to faith as a result of the rapture, as part of the church, these who wear "White Robes" are clearly included with those who attend the wedding feast.

If the church is raptured, these must have been left behind, along with others who are yet to be killed, according to verse 11.

These even ask; "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  expectant to have their blood avenged by the Lord at the poring out of his wrath upon the earth.

But notice the answer given them;

11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.  fellow bondservants, not witnesses

If the church has been raptured already, where did these come from?? Who evangelized them?? and  are they not members of the church the Body of Christ??

And again, it isn't until the sixth seal is opened at Rev 6:12-17;  That the "great day of HIS wrath is come; is mentioned, nothing is said about tribulation....

Can you reconcile these for me?


Blessings,

   People are always refering to Matthew and the Rapture, but Matthew is focused on the Jews and the Second Coming of Christ ,not the Rapture.

Right On! Bro

Brother Love :)

This is very interesting stuff, from both points of view.  I will have to wait until my work week finishes in order to follow along with scripture in front of me, for both sides.

Grace and peace!

bro love,

In the lite of Mat 24:22, please reconcile, this verse with your statement  above.
 
Clearly, the elect does not consist of the Jews only.  

Or am I wrong?

Lk 16:22-36, is the same discourse, Jesus spoke to His disciples at Mat 24, in the first place he is speaking to His disciples, and then uses Noe, and Lot to make the point concerning His coming wrath upon the world, and at verse 33, the word "whosoever" does not limit these things to the jews at all.

Can you square this up..


Blessings, Petro

   Petro,

       Thats quite a list of questions...

      the word "tribulation" refers to every day trials and tribulations. The "Great Tribulation" is a specific time period of Judgment, which includes the "wrath of the Lamb".

      The "Day of the Lord" has many meanings in Scripture, it has been used to describe many things. Heres some examples:

Ezekiel 30:2  "Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day
   3: For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
   4: And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down."

      If you continue reading the passages in Ezekiel 30, you find that Nebuchadnezzar is mentioned.

Ezekiel 30:9   "In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh.
   10: Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.
   11: He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.

      As you can see by the verses above the "Day of the Lord" was used to describe God's judgment by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.

2 Peter 3:10  "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

       It seems Peter is using the "Day of the Lord" to describe the Rapture ("But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night") and then also describes the destruction of the heavens and earth after the Millenium which is found in Revelation 21: 1: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
   2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
   3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
   4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

     Paul uses the "Day of the Lord" to mean the end of the age of Grace which is the Day of the Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:2  "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

     Bottom line is the "Day of the Lord" has many meanings and it takes deep searching to determine which meaning to apply to "the Day of the Lord" where ever it is used.

                                                Paul2

Your doing a GRRRREAT Job Brother Paul2

paul2,

Yes there is alot of questions which need to be reconciled with the teaching.

But, lets take it one at a time.

Can you define who are the saints?

And who are the Elect?

And are they one and the same?

Is the wrath of the dragon the ole serpent called the Devil and Satan of Rev 12:8-17, the same wrath of God, brought upon the earth with the coming of the Day of the Lord?


Blessings,

Petro

"Those unfulfilled prophecies like the Temple being rebuilt will be done in the 7 year tribulation period. Mat 25:10"  

Will not the building of the temple be an abomination to God since the true is in heaven, and the earthly temple was just a shadow of the true, into which Christ has gone into the true holy of holies to plead for us?

Just a wondering thought and response to "oldtimers" quote.

ollie,

The rebuilding of then Temple at Jerusalem is probably is what brings on the Tribulation of the nations on the earth.

One of the characteristics of the millenial reign of Christ is the rebuilding of the Temple (Ezek 37:26-28, Ezek 40-48 (chaps), Hag 2:7-9, oel 3:18)

And the revival of the sacrificial system (Ezeik 43:13-27, 45:13-25, Isa 56:7)

Will it be an abomination to God, that the Nation of Israel, rebuilds the temple??,

Building the building itself is not a sin, however, sacrificing and worshipping in it is what will make it an abomination, but it
could be this does not occur, since this is probably the reason for th Lords return, to keep his elect from being partakers in the sin of the nation. It is hard to say, their lack of worship to the known God, in itself is enough to keep Israel spiritually dead.  So sacrificing animals is just another sin heaped upon their sin of unbelief.

But this whole program centers around Israel from this time on, because God has set His heart to save His remanent from the Nation.   And He will do it.


Blessings,

Petro

Paul2

"Wrath of the Lamb" at Rev 6:16-17, so would you agree this is the rapture day which you tie with 1 Th 5:2, "Day of the Lord??"

Please reconcile the questions I asked in my first post, concerning words "tribulation" and "wrath", and "evil" and "wrath".

I just don't see how we can continue without defining these apparent discrepancies in misinterpretation these of words.


Blessings,

Petro

ollie,

As I thought on this very thing, concerning the Jews, the temple, and so on, I remembered the verses of Deut 30,

Whereby after the blessings and the curses were to come upon them, the promise from God with open arms, still stands if they returned to the LORD their God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that He commanded them on that  day, they and their children, with all their heart, and with all their soul;  (Duet 30)

And since they are presently blinded, all they have is the Law of Moses to guide them back to God.

I guess from our perspective, we are unable to understand this whole matter, it is evident by simply examining history, that God has had compassion on them, since He has gathered and fetched them from all the nations of the world (although this process is still occuring).

It is clear to me, they are still blind as it concerns the Gospel of the Lord, but then again, and I also understand that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25), but knowing God, looks at the heart, to what extent, they have truned to Him, can only be measured by what we see.

And what we see is a nation, which was resurrected in 1948.

Actually, it is hard to say, whether their desire to rebuild the tmple is considered an abomination to God, especially since He is the one who has given them, these words of hope for them as a nation.  They do these things because of hardness of heart.

But, we know that when their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away;

2Cor 3
15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
16  Nevertheless when it (their heart) shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Was it necessary for all of them to seek Gods face, and turn back to Him, after the atrocities of wwII??

Or was it sufficient that a remanent do it??

This is the $63,000,000 question...


Blessings,

Petro

{quote] paul2 reply #16
The "Day of the Lord" has many meanings in Scripture, it has been used to describe many things. Heres some examples:

Ezekiel 30:2  "Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day
  3: For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
  4: And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down."

      If you continue reading the passages in Ezekiel 30, you find that Nebuchadnezzar is mentioned.

Ezekiel 30:9  "In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh.
  10: Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.
  11: He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.

      As you can see by the verses above the "Day of the Lord" was used to describe God's judgment by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.

2 Peter 3:10  "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

      It seems Peter is using the "Day of the Lord" to describe the Rapture ("But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night") and then also describes the destruction of the heavens and earth after the Millenium which is found in Revelation 21: 1: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
  2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
  3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
  4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    Paul uses the "Day of the Lord" to mean the end of the age of Grace which is the Day of the Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:2  "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

    Bottom line is the "Day of the Lord" has many meanings and it takes deep searching to determine which meaning to apply to "the Day of the Lord" where ever it is used.



Paul2,

Precisely, I agree.....

And this is the problem with trying to fit a pre trib rapture into a timeline, here is three passages of scripture, are they all one event or three different events, can you say for sure, whether they are what you interpret them to be.


Here they are:

Acts 2
24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.  (see Joel 3:31)

When does this take Place??  In relation to the rapture??

Or, Is it the same event recorded in Rev 6:12-13?

Mk 13
24  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.    ( see the parallel passages  Mat 24:29-30 and Lk 21:25)

Is this event in the same one in view with  Acts 2:19-20, see also, Joel 3:18??

If it is,  is  it after the Tribulation, or  before, or in the middle of the trib.??

Where is the rapture in relation to these verses.

Rev 6
12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.



But the prophet Zecariah writes about this same event at chapter 14;

3  Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (sounds like an earthquake)
5  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9  And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Boy, I tell you, these sounds like the same event (ONE) to me,  spoken by Jhn at Rev 6, Jesus at Mat 24:29-30, and  Dr. Lukes account of Jesus same words at Acts 2:19-20.

Please note that (Rev 6:12-13, it together with 1 Th 5:2)  is the rapture which , you already established to have taken place back at Rev 4, yet two seals have been opened, before the day of the wrath of the Lamb comes on the earth.

Connect this to my previous reply #10, and there is a lot of scriptural  explaining and reconciling to do.

Wouldn't you agree??

Blessings, Petro

Here is a possibly not relevant, but interesting non-the-less bit of info.  The mount of olives is said to contain the only verticle fault line in the world.

Just a fun little fact!    ;)

Grace and Peace!

I want to point out that Zecariah 14:3-9 is not the end of the millenial reign, but the begining of it.

And it is precisely on this day that the period of time refered to as the Day of the Lord , which includes the 1000 year reign of Jesus begins on the earth.

Anybody have any ideas??  How this can be reconciled with the pre/mid trib rapture theory??

Clearly this is after the great tribulation, if one believes Acts 2, Mark 23..

Blessings,

Petro

One thing I notice in Rev 6 is...

Rev 6:12-17
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

All these people are hiding from the Lord.  If this covers all the men on the earth, why would His church be hiding?  These sound like ungodly and fearful people to me.  

In Matthew it says...

Matt 16:18
18  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Yet we read in Revelation...

Rev 13:4-7
4  Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
5  The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6  He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
7  He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
(NIV)

A contradiction?  How can the Antichrist/Satan have gates that stand up against the Church?  Or are these saints not part of the Church/age that is possibly been raptured, but rather saints like the OT saints?  

Also in Matthew...

Matt 24:3
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

Jesus covers a lot of territory in the rest of this chapter.  Signs about things about to happen, his return, as well as the END of the age.

Matt 24:29-31
29  "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30  "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31  And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

[Who is the elect?  Anyone done a word study on this?]
All men will see him!  As opposed to...

Matt 24:40-42
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.


Also....

Matt 24:48-50
48  But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,'
49  and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.
50  The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.

2 things jump out at me here.  
1. He is a servant, allbeit a wicked servant. (He knows the master)
2. There seems to be drinking and rioting.  Pretty contrast to Rev during the opening of the seals.


For me, the biggest clue is the endless warnings to watch for evidence of his return, for we do not know.  If tribulation begins, we will know almost to the day.  Gods wrath is a last ditch effort to save man, and cause some to repent.  There are even pauses during the wrath, almost as if God is waiting to see how man is responding.  No reason for the true church to endure this.  The true church is already washed in the blood of the lamb.   Of course God is wiser than me, and will do as he pleases  :)   Like I have said in previous posts, theres enough scripture to build an argument for both pre and post trib views.  I still think the pre-trib case is better equiped to answer the difficult passages.  Not all, but most.

Grace and Peace!

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Paul2,

Twobombs is asking for an Internet address. I guess he thinks there is more of your work or a debate somewhere other than Christians Unite.

Thanks for your work. I'm going to go slow with this and study as you and others post. This is a very difficult topic.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 d Tim,

One at a time here,

If there are Christians among these at Rev 6:15-17, they obviously are not looking for the Lords return, and all these who seek to be hidden from the face of Him who sits on the Throne (God the Father), and the Wrath of the Lamb (Jesus the Lamb of God) NOTare the elect of Mat 24:22.

Now, there is a sin that so easily besets Christians, and it's root cause is unbelief, so it is possible that there may be Christians that are uncertain of their salvation, just as there are among us today, those who claim Christ but really do not believe His Words.

In my opinion these are an enigma, but the Word does tell us there are some that suffer from this particular sin (Heb 12:1), and it is easy for me to understand how that a weak christian could be discouraged and live in fear. especially after experiencing the tribulation on the earth, ending with the Great Day of the Lord.

This is why it is imperitive to study and to learn Gods Word with the goal of  strengthening ones faith in the knowledge of the promises of God to His elect.

How does this square up with Gods Word?

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.  (2 Tim 1:7)


Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1 Cor 2:12)

It is important to get the order of things right, so that when the preplexing days come upon the World, Christians will not be running to and fro, as Jesus warned His Apostles at;

Mat 24
4   Take heed that no man deceive you.
23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25  Behold, I have told you before.
26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Now I ask you, read this verses above carefully, and then ask yourself, will there be Christians on the earth, during the time of verses 21 and 22, note that His return at verse 29, is earmarked by heavenly signs, the sun and moon.

Blessings,

Petro

2d Tim,

It should not be a secret to Gods people, that God tries His people, He tested Job (surely you know the story), He tested Abraham, actually the word is TRIED, (Heb 11:17) and in the rest if Hebrews 11, we read of other men of faith who overcame by their Faith, and then we read at  

Rev 12
9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 13, follows Rev 12 clearly, what appears defeat for Gods people makes a rapture looks pretty good, for christians that are use to an easy life, not much in the way of sacrificing anything, here in this country, rather than giving of ourselves, we would rather give money and let someone else, give of themselves to Gods work.  

So naturally, there is an incentive to want to see a rapture before tough times come upon them that dwell on the earth.

But this should not be the driving factor in trying to learn the truth of this matter.

What is interesting is that if we continue reading Rev 12, we read at verse;

12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The tribulation on the earth could very well be attributed to the Serpents wrath, brought upon the earth (vs 12) because his time is short.

Now I know many will say, the seed of the woman means the Nation of Israel, but the answer is in the verse which focuses on the woman;


13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Can anyone show who this woman is?


Blessings,

Petro

Lets start here


I will take a stab at this.....If you back up to verse 1 in the same chapter, there are some clues as to who the women is.  

Rev 12:1
1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

See Genesis 37:9-11 - describes these same symbols used here in Rev, in Joseph's dream.  The moon is the mother, the sun is the father, and the 11 stars are his 11 brothers not including himself.  Sounds to me like the 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev continued...
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
...
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

These 2 verses leave little doubt this is speaking of Jesus (rules with an iron scepter, snatched up to Gods throne), who came from the women.  Comparing Joseph's dream to the verses in Revelation, it seems to me like the woman is indeed the Nation of Israel.  



I would agree with this, and I too can see how that would be possible by allowing the church to go through the trib.  I am trying to keep an open mind here, as I am hopefull this discussion will lead to better understanding of end-time prophecies one way or the other.

I'm gonna stop here for tonight, as I am getting tired.  Will try to get to your other post sometime tomorrow.

Grace and Peace!

2d Tim,

you said;



This is the way, men begin, new religions, with themselves at its head.

How do you connect the woman standing on the moon, being the moon and then the pregnant mother of eleven.??


Blessings,

Petro

LOL...read it again Petro!  If you don't understand what I said you could at least ask for clarification, right?  

Lets try this again.

Gen 37:9-11
9  Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."
10  When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?"
11  His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

Is there any questions about what this is saying?  Joseph has a dream that the the sun, moon and 11 stars were bowing to him in his dream.   After hearing that the sun, moon and 11 stars were bowing to him in his dream, his father then asks, "will your mother, I and your 11 brothers bow down before you?"  There should be no question that this is the family that the nation of Israel comes from....Jacob, Rachel, and the 12 tribes or sons (forefathers of Israel)!  

The women in Revelation 12:1 is clothed with these very symbols!  Is it coencidence that these same symbols are used in Rev?  I have heard people try to say that this woman in Revelation is the church.  But if you read verse 5 that is not possible.  Who is the male child that rules with an iron sceptor?

Answer...
Ps 2:7-9
7  I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.
8  Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
9  You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

There is no question the child is Christ.  So if the women is the church, how can she bring forth christ?  Christ created the church, not the other way around.  This would truly be a new religion.   ;)

In light of these passages of scripture, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head can be no other than the nation of Israel.

I have open ears if there is some other passage of scripture that explains the women of Revelation clearer.

Grace and Peace!

Hey, I have an idea... let’s just wait and see!  ;D

Just a thought... ;)

Just to add a little more weight to what the scripture says concerning the Woman in Rev 12.

Rev 12:6
6  The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Jeremiah reinforces this....(which is during the time of Jacobs trouble)

Jer 30:23-31:2
23  See, the storm of the LORD will burst out in wrath, a driving wind swirling down on the heads of the wicked.
24  The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart. In days to come you will understand this.

CHAPTER 31

1 "At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people."
2 This is what the LORD says: "The people who survive the sword will find favor in the desert; I will come to give rest to Israel."

All of this fits together like glove considering Daniels 70th week focusses on Israel

Backing up a few verses to...
Jer 30:7
7  How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.

As seen in my earlier post, we already know that Jacob is mentioned in Joseph's dream.  He is the forefather of the Nation of Israel, the woman of Revelation 12.

Grace and Peace!

I don't see, how you tie, Joseph's dream to the woman of Rev 12, it sounds disjointed with no clear connection, between the moon being personified as a woman at all with the woman of Rev 12.

Notice,

Rev 12
13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

This woman is also the same woman, whose seed

"which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
 
is persecuted by the dragon, at verse;

17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which

We also read at Gen 3;

14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent,  ..........
15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And finally we read;

Gal 4
21  Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27  For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Two questions;

1. Is the seed of verse Rev 12:13, and verse 17 two different seedliness??

or One seedline??

2.  There is no question Eve would be the mother of the seed which would bruise the serpents head (Gen 3:15) the dragon of Rev 12, is the same serpent who was present at the Garden in Gen3,  and heavenly free Jerusalem is personified as a woman, the mother of all who are free, and there is no question about it, she is the one which gave birth to the man child since the word "us all" includes Him, since He is the first born of many brethern.

Is the Israel of Rom 11:

26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Speaking specifically of the Nation of Israel??

and ,

3. What  Zion  is in view herein??


Blessings,

Petro

29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2d tim,


There is two questions herein;

1. What will be the sign of your coming?
2. And of the end of the age?

Jesus answers both, concerning the sign of his coming he said:
Paul2, in one of his posts, states, the end of the age, ends with the return of Jesus and the begining of the Day of the Lord, the signs which point to the beging of this day is outlined in the following verses you have posted, below;

Matt 24:29-31
29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
As for your question;
The elect can mean Jesus specifically. (Isa 42:1-9)
Can also mean the Nation of Israel specifically (Isa 45:2-4)
And, can refer to the total some of all whom God has chosen, in relationship to Christ. (2 Pet 1:10, Eph 1:4-5,11)



I have taken Mat 24;29-31, and the parallel passages at Mk 13, and Rev 6, all of which in my opinion, are the same event and fit them together, line upon line so that a comparison can be made, "All men will see him" is apparent in these verses


Mat 24 -  Mk 13  -  Rev 6
29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood
13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
28  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
 13  ..........even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Does this sound like a rapture??  or the end time Note;  Rev 6:14.."the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."



It is clear to me, this is not a rapture from the preceding verses, the word that connects the follwoing verses to 40-42, is the word "THEN" begining verse 40, I see you have left this word out, but it is the word # 5119, tote tot'-eh, - ie; at the time that, and it, should not overlooked.

Here are the verses preceding 40-42;

36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This not a rapture, but rather judgement on the earth, it sounds like the Day of the Lord a Day of Wrath according to Zepheniah 1:14-15.

Blessings,

Petro

Lets stick to one point or post at a time....we are getting way ahead here.


The moon is not the woman of Revelation.  Gen shows where the moon represents the mother of Israel.  The woman of Revelation is figurative, a vision!

We must keep in mind here that John is told to write down what he see's.
Here...
Rev 1:10-11
10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
(NIV)
and here...
Rev 1:19
19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
(NIV)

Now, in Ch 12 he SEE's a "great wonder that appears in heaven".  A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

He wrote down what he saw!  Revelation is filled with numerous wild visions such as this.  We know a physical woman cannot be litteraly clothed with the sun, so this must be speaking figuratively.  So we are given this description obviously to help us understand who she is.  

What we know about her.
1. She is clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown a 12 stars.
Is there anywhere in the bible that describes the symbols used which the woman is clothed with?  Yes!  Gen 37:9-10 which describes the family that the nation of Israel comes from as the Sun, moon and 12 stars.  This would also be easily understood by the Hebrews who were well versed in the OT.  

2. She is travailing in child birth.
3. She brought forth a man-child who would rule with an Iron scepter.
What woman brought forth a man child that will rule with an Iron scepter, painfully?  Mary?  True!  But, we know she is not clothed in the Sun, and she is not around when the dragon is roaming about in the last days. Eve? same problems here.  What about the Church?  We know this is not so.  Christ built the church himself...she didn't give birth to him.  Again, the only reasonable conclusion is the nation of Israel.

4. She fled into the wilderness, where God prepared a place for her, for 1,260 days.
Jer 31:2 apears to describes this event for the Clans of Israel, during the time of Jacobs trouble no less (a time set aside for dealing with who?  The nation Israel!).

5. After She had given birth she is persued by the dragon when he is cast down to earth so he could devour the child.
The Church?  There is no question that Satan hates the church, but the Church did not give birth to the man child, so this could not be the Church.  Eve?  When was Eve persued by the serpant so he could devour her child?  Does not fit.  However, we know that Satan ALSO hates the nation of Israel because she was used by God to bring our saviour into the world.  Also interesting to note that Herod wanted to kill Jesus when he was born...no doubt under the influence of the dragon.

6. She was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.
Again, we see she is offered protection from the dragon in the desert.  Will Eve be offered protection during tribulation period?  Not unless she is ressurected first.  The Church?  Perhaps!  You will also note that in Daniel 7:25 the saints are handed over for this exact amount of time.  Daniel 12:7 records again the exact time frame concerning the power of the holy people being finally broken and all things concerning Daniels prophecy completed.  I can't say for sure these events in Daniel are related, but it sure seems that way.

7. The Dragon is wroth with the woman because he can't get to her due to devine proctection. (Provoked)

So who is this woman?   The only possible choice that I can see is Israel.  Saying she is the church is obvious error. Saying she is Eve requires too much of a stretch.   Saying she is Israel agree's freely with other scripture without any bending and forcing what so ever, and agree's with what we know about John's description of her .



I agree about the Eve being promised the seed, and the serpent being present in the garden...all flesh did come from Eve.

However, the man-children that Eve bore, never ruled with an Iron scepter, and were never snatched up to Gods throne.  Also, how can Eve be persued by the dragon when he is cast down, she is not around now.  How can Eve be lead into the desert for protection during that time?  Doesn't fit.  Also note that the SEED singular is speaking of Christ, not all of Eve's seeds

Gal 3:19
19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

The Nation of Israel who the mesiah (SEED) came through fits perfectly in all aspects of what John saw and wrote down.


Rev 12:17
17  Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring-- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Note in the above verse, the separation between the woman and those who keep the testimony of God.  Does the nation of Israel follow the testimony of Jesus and obey Gods commandments?  No, however, believers in Christ do and those are made heirs to Abrahams seed and the promise.

Gal 3:29
29  If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Of course, you are entitled to your interpritation of scripture.
All the evidence I have shown here shows the woman in Revelation 12 can be no other than the Nation of Israel.  Everything that John saw and wrote concerning her agrees with this, as well as scripture.  Making Eve the woman is a forced stretch at best.

Grace and Peace!

I will take a look at the Post regarding Mat 24 tomorrow, its getting late and I'm getting tired.

Grace and Peace!

Petro,

Before we get to Matthew, let me first say that after reading over my last post, there is somewhat of a negative tone there that was not intended.  I promise I am not trying to shove or force anything down your throat concerning the Book of Revelation.   I don't think we should aproach this as a debate, but rather sharing our understanding of scripture.  Anyone who claims they have understand all that God says in his word would be highly mistaken.   I know I for one am no expert on theology.   I do pray when reading the word and ask God to open my eyes to his truth.   With regard to Revelation, I think anyone would agree that this is a most diffucult book.  Without the holy spirit leading one, it would be impossible to discern what is contained therin.   In some cases, we may not understand until Christ himself is revealed.   So just to reitterate, we are sharing views, and exploring Gods word here.  Not trying to add or take away from his word.   My apologies if it sounded as though there is no way the woman could be any other than Israel.   From what I read and see, it sure appears that way, and I am only sharing this view, not forcing.

Moving on...


Actually, there are 3 questions but Jesus never really addresses the first one.
Matt 24:3
3  As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
(NIV)

1. When will these things happen? (Jesus had just told them that the buildings the deciples were pointing out to him would soon be destroyed in verse 1 and 2.)
2. what will be the sign of your coming?
3. And what will be the sign of the end of the age?

To understand this, we almost have to ask ourselves, which question Jesus is addressing, which he indicates.

Matt 24:4-39
4  Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
5  For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6  You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7  Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8  All these are the beginning of birth pains

In verse 7 he says the end is still to come.  Verse 8 he says these are the beginning of birth pains.

9  "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

This seems to be speaking to people present, but I would not say it doesn't include many more down through the years.

10  At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11  and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12  Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13  but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14  And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Here is a clue about when the END will come.  When the gospel is preached in the WHOLE world.  We know that was not the case in bible days.  However, we most deffinately live in that time now.   Also notice the things mentioned here happen throughout history up till now.


15  "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel-- let the reader understand--

Here he brings things to a point.  When you SEE the abomination that causes desolation, refering to the book of Daniel  (LET THE READER UNDERSTAND).   No question Jesus is addressing a particular time, the great tribulation, which he points out a few verses from here.

16  then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17  Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
18  Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
19  How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20  Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21  For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-- and never to be equaled again.

Great distress unequaled from the beginning, and never again!  Clearly the tribulation period and Gods wrath.

22  If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
23  At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
24  For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-- if that were possible.
25  See, I have told you ahead of time.
26  "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.


continued due to length...

Now he goes into the sign of his coming.

27  For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Notice there is no sign.  Lighting is a split second happening.  No warning it is about to strike.   So shall be the coming of the Son of man.  Instantly and covers from the East to the west  (the whole earth)


28  Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

I retract this idea below...see next post.
Currious verse.  Actually I have read this passage many time and this is the first time it has caught my attention.  What carcasses?  Could this be the carcusses of those raptured?  I don't know for sure but it is a thought.  If that is the case, it certainly adds fuel to the pre-trib view.  Another possibility is that his coming will kill the many wicked.  Either way, this is an interesting verse.


29  "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

Immediately AFTER the distress of those days.  This coraborates Rev 6 verse 12, at the opening of the sixth seal.

30  "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31  And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

A very visible event.  Is it the same event as described before about lightning from east to west?  Not sure.  Anyhow, there is much heavenly activity happening in these verses.  Entire nations mourning, Angles with loud trumpets.   Notice Jesus says THEY will see him coming in the clouds.  Who are they?  The nations of the earth who mourn.  Also, who are the elect?  You said in a previous post...

From this there are only 2 possibilities.  Either the Nation of Israel, (144,000?) or those who believe in christ.  Not clear on if this is the rapture or not, but I would agree to the possibility.


Here Jesus switches gears....

32  "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
33  Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
34  I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

When you see all these things know that IT is near, right at the door.  What is near?  The end of the age?  The coming of the son of man?  I believe he means the coming of the son of man, as he continues that theme for next verse or two. edit #2  Clearly he says all the things he just spoke of will happen...so I guess it answers both questions


35  Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36  "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

No one knows, not even the Son!

37  As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38  For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39  and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.


What I find interesting here is the description of the times of Noah.   Eating, drinking, marrying, and that they had no clue about what was about to happen.   During the tribulation period...the greatest time of distress ever known to man from the beginning of the earth till now....Somehow I can't imagine people partying during those days.  I suppose its possible, but Rev describes people hiding away in the Rocks, and calling for death and so forth.  Never, the less, Jesus describes a complacent world at the coming of the son of man, going about their everyday lives and wickedness.  Not a world in terror that is greater than anything ever seen before.

Jesus continues speaking about the coming of the Son of man.

Matt 24:40-51
40  Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41  Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Here again, people are carrying about their business, just as Jesus had described in the prior verses.  Not hiding in rocks from terror and wrath.

42  "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

Therefore-(accordingly!)  Because all will seem normal in the world.  (not greater distress as never seen before)  Keep watch, because we do not know when the Lord will return.

A notworthy warning.  We are to watch for the signs, because it could happen at any time.   Here again I must say, that one could view this passage differently.  Like I said before, I am no theologen.  But IMHO I can see evidence in this very passage that the rapture could happen at any time.  Remember Jesus himself didn't even know when it was going to happen, only the father, and he will send his son when HE is good and ready.   However, Jesus gives us signs and warnings of both these events.  And we should try to understand with the help of the holy spirit, what he means by these things.

Grace and Peace!

Quick note and revision.....  Clearly in other places in scripture it says we will changed...implying our current bodies will change.  So my idea about the carcasses cannot be correct here.  However, when the rapture takes place, there is no question the immediate absense of these people will cause numerous deaths and confusion all over the earth.  Vacated vehicles such as planes, train, cars etc etc.  Again just thoughts.

Apologies!   ;D

I guess the NIV version leaves out the word then....lets look at the KJV.


Matt 24:37-42
37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
(KJV)

Still reads the same to me.  He is talking about how things will be before his return.  THEN?  I don't follow you here.  Watch therefore:  still speaking of his return right after he tells of the workers in the field.   Someone is taken at his coming.  Which one is taken?  He says in Noahs day the wicked were taken away by the flood...(this stands to reason as Noah was to remain on the earth, not to be with the Lord for evermore).   Believers today are told that we will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air when he returns pre or post.  We are not waiting for the Lord to remove the wicked, we are waiting for him to remove us and bring us to him at his return.   Relating Noah's time to the coming of the Son seems focus on how people will be behaving; eating, drinking, and marrying. They didn't know until it was too late. So shall be the coming of the Son of Man.  Those who arent watching.  THEN 2 shall be in the field, one taken the other left?   I guess it depends on how much comparison you give between Noahs wicked being taken, and Christ Church being retrieved.  To me the emphasis seem to be on the nature of their behaviour.  Not the nature of what "taking" is.  If the wicked are taken away, and the believers are then caught up in the air, then no one is left in the field at all?  I don't see this.  Again whether this is pre or post coming, believers are caught up in the air.  This doesn't make sense to say the wicked are taken and we are left in the field.


1Thes 4:16-17
16  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
(NIV)

I'm not sure I can see this as the wicked is taken.  But thats just me.   8)

I think I'm caught up now...don't believe I missed any questions....sorry if I have.   Lets try to take these one point, or post at a time.  Took me nearly all day to get to all this.  Fair enough?

Grace and Peace!

2d Tim,

One point at a time, sounds great, to me.

Here is what you posted at reply#30;


Now using your reasoning in your reply herein, where you said;


"The moon is not the woman of Revelation.  Gen shows where the moon represents the mother of Israel.  The woman of Revelation is figurative, a vision!"

Eve at Gen 3, was not the mother of Israel...I trust this is not who you are refering to??

And comparing this figurative language you say is spoken herein, refering to Israel, why can't..... "Jerusalem the mother of us all" of Gal 4:26, be that woman?

Afterall, the language is figurative in both passages....

When we read Gal 4:17, we read the following:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


In speaking of "the remnant of her seed", this is speaking of the seed of the woman at Gen 3, however, it is not speaking of Jesus, since it says  " the remnant", while this can refer to the Nation of Israel, it also could refer to anyone who is in the faith at this time, which could be considered a remnant, which have the testimony of Jesus Christ, during the time period fulfilling the vision.

Adam at Gen 3, typifies the last Adam of 1 Cor 15:45.

Is there a reason why Eve cannot typify Jerusalem the mother of us all.  

This Jerusalem at Gal 4:26, not only brought the man child but is presently continuing to bring forth children and will continue until the end, if there is a rapture before the coming of John's vision herein at Jhn 12:5, it can be easily understood, why these at verse 17, are refered to as the "remnant".

At any rate, I can see we are getting off track with this discussion, from the original topic of the thread.

Now, after having said all this I don't discount, altogether that these verses could very well be speaking of Israel, almost all of us believe this, because we have been taught it, and commentaries teach it, I want to see how you tie together what you have stated.

If the woman is not the monn, then please clarify yourself..concerning the woman/moon comment.


Blessings,

Petrp

This apears to make sense.  Israel, Jerusalem.  



I can see how one would read this.   However, to make Eve the woman in Rev 12 you must explain the rest of what we know about her, from Johns vision.  Israel, or Jerusalem as you say is a much better fit than Eve.  Its not easy to make Eve the Woman, if you take into consideration the WHOLE vision of the Woman.


Actually, most commentaries I have seen try to make the Woman the Church.   I certainly do not hold this view.  As best I can, I have already stated the reasons for my view.  While I admit I could be wrong, I can only go by how John describes the entire vision, and try to understand what he saw.  In my view, Eve does not fit.  But I wont force others to deny that.


The woman of Revelation IS NOT the moon.  :)  She can't be the woman with herself under her own feet.  Sorry if my post implied this....not what I was saying at all.

Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9  explains the same symbols.  The symbols of HIS dream describe, the Sun as HIS father, the Moon as HIS mother, and the 11 stars as HIS bothers (not including himself) equals 12 stars.   No where does Gen or Rev refer to each other regarding thes symbols.  However, one cannot deny that the same family Joseph's dream describes were the forefathers of the the 12 tribes of Israel.  Disjointed?, forced into Rev 12?  No, just an observation!  I could be wrong.   But when trying to understand a difficult vision from the Lord, this evidence from HIS own word should not be overlooked.  And when taken as one part, with other clues we are given in Rev 12, it does seem to lend to who the Woman in question is.

Grace and Peace!

Well  you can see when one starts spiritualizing, or using types, on can wind up in left field, this can be continued to be expanded, using Jerusalem as the mother, the man child the body of Christ, the apsotles as the eleven, not including Jesus himself, afterall there is no denying He was the first Apostle sent by God the Father.

It just can turn into a  can of worms, and one can makle it say what ever one wants to; ... proving it is another matter.

Well we have strayed from the original discussion of the pre trib rapture.

I would like to stay on this subject as, I think we can get some truth out of what has been said.

I had indicated that I sided with the Pre trib position, not to sure about that since I have identified at leats five errors, which have yet to be explained, I'll have to go back and see, but I believe I have pointed out two of them, and began expanding on one of them.

Anyhow, what I want to say is, that I do believe in a rapture but, I am of the opinion, it is netiher pre nor mid, so I call it pre wrath, not in the original sense of the word when coined since that one had serious problems.  But i use the term in general to mean exactly what it says.

Pre Wrath, is it emminent, I believe it is!


Blessings,

Ptero

I have been giving this much thought.  I can honestly say that the more I look into any particular view, the harder it becomes to say "here's the right one"...lol  

What is certain, is that our Lord tells us, we do not know when it will happen.   Therefore Watch!  because you do not know the day your Lord returns.  We know for certain he says he will come for us at a time we do not expect it.

Having said this, I have been thinking about the whole picture, and have a few more thoughts about pre-trib view.

While it seems possible that pre-wrath (or any time during the beginning of the trib) rapture is a possibilty, and still holds a certain amount of immenancy, Its difficult to understand why intense tribulation is needed to beat up and test the Bride.   We believe currently that Christ died and took on Gods punishment for our iniquities at the cross.   We all face trials daily that test and strengthen our faith.   Those of us who devote ourselves to trust in him and his gift of salvation do so because what he did for us.  And we do so without ever having seen him...only by the leading of the holy spirit, and the words of those who testify to having seen him.   There is no question that facing an early portion of the tribulation period or even right up to wrath portion, would indeed test and strengthen us.  And perhaps this is what God wants.  But, if he wanted to test the church with intense tribulation, why only a small portion of believers, at one particular point in history?   Haven't all believers at some point in their walk been tested by him?  Does the last days church require intensive tribulation?

This brings me to the following.

What is the reason for "intense" tribulation spoken of in Revelation.  What is the purpose of this book?  The prupose is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.   Who is he attempting to reveal himself to?

Repentance is spoken about throughout Revelation.  "Watchfullness and endurance" cannot be seen as a theme anywhere...only one church early on.  Tribulation and Judgment is being poured out on the earth in an effort to reveal Christ's authority, encourage repentance, and purify men and the earth for the most part.   Does the true church fall into this category of unbelief or unrepenant?  Granted some so called believers may, but I thought if we were found in Christ, saved by the blood, we were already pure in the fathers eyes.  We have already been purchased, no intrest or balloon payments pending!

This line of thinking also brings us to, how good we need to be or serve (or how much we must prove) before we are worthy of being received by Jesus does it not?  This seems to go against the character of what the word teaches and being in Jesus by his works at calvary.  

From a pre-trib view, those who did not believe before hand, are brought into the focus of intense tribulation, to encourage repentance.   How ironic, if the rapture happens pre trib, those left behind now have tangeble truth (millions of missing believers) that Jesus is who he says he is.   They would now be forced to endure intense tribulation and even death to prove their obediance and trust in the living God.  Where as the church having never seen proof, believed out of faith all along.

These of course are just some thoughts I have considered while meditating on this.   Regardles, I have faith and trust that God's timing and wisdom are perfect, and things will happen just as they should to complete his purpose in us and the in the earth.

Grace and Peace!

      Hello everybody,

      My computer has been broken but is now fixed so I'm back. For those who don't know me, take a look at my writings on the subject of the Rapture of the church in the previous pages of this post. Many important details are discussed, and many questions are already answered in my posts.

     I have told a friend of mine named Scott to check out this site and my posts. Scott, have you found the site yet? When you get here, log on with a user name and password and then leave a reply message for me by clickings "reply" at the bottom of the last post of this topic. I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

     As far as the rest of you are concerned, I've been gone for about a month now and I'll be checking out your posts to see what I've been missing, and to help me remember where I left off before my computer crashed. Its good to be back and I look forward to discussions and the debates that always follow. Now where was I............

                                                         Paul2 8)
   

Hey Paul2,

I was wondering what happend to you.  Glad to hear you got your PC problems worked out.  And I look forward to hearing more of your pret-trib posting... :)

Grace and Peace!

      Thanks for the "welcome back" , I have no idea where to begin again. It seems everytime I really get into it something happens to stop my progress. First the site crashed and all my posts were lost, then my old computer crashed, then my new computer crashed, seems like someone out there wants me to remain silent.... could it be........SATAN!

     Well as some of you may have noticed, I'm not shy, and I'm not easy to silence either. So I'll try to get the message out once again. At the rate I'm going the Rapture will take place before I'm done studing it with you all, which would be fine with me but I'd feel bad for those of you who weren't quite ready for it.

    Funny thing is the more Satan tries to silence me the more motivated I become. Feels great to be back in the game, hopefully I can make a difference for somebody out there.

    I'm working on a new friend of mine named Scott, who is on the verge of becoming a Christian (hopefully). He's the blacksmith for our horses and a super nice guy who I hit it off with the first time I met him. He comes to shoe our horses once every 6 weeks and each time he comes I spend a couple of hours discussing God, Jesus and the Bible with him. He's interested in our discussions, but has no background information on true Chistianity. He took his first big step of faith by giving me the money to buy him a Bible (because he doesn't know what version to buy that can be trusted).

     So I'm going to get him a Bible and highlight some important verses for him to study up on. I asked him to go and see the Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of the Christ" with me when it comes out so he will understand what our Salvation required of Jesus Christ our lord and Savior. I explained to him that our Salvation has already been paid in full by the blood of Christ and that by faith alone we are saved by the blood of Christ. He's very receptive but needs to have many questions answered before he can truely make his decission. I explained to him that faith comes from "hearing", many people read the Bible but never come to true faith. Theres alot of information that the Bible alone does not explain to someone who has never studied it before. I told him I'd be willing to study with him and answer all his questions and show him where in the Bible these answers can be found. I believe people should know why they believe and be able to defend their faith. I seem to have been sidelined for a while but I'm back in the game again.

      Please say a prayer for me and my friend Scott and ask that I be given the wisdom to answer his questions, and that Scott's heart be open to receive the answers and that he be given the gift of faith in Christ that only comes from God and that he receives the Holy Spirit as his personal guide and teacher of God's truth. Pray for Scott to become a Christian and join us on the clouds to meet Christ in the air on the great day of the Rapture.

     P.s.  Please pray Scott be given the patience to put up with me, and that I be given whatever is necessary to help him find the faith and truth of Jesus Christ.  Thank you all!

                                                          Paul2 8)

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

Welcome back brother. I'm having computer problems too. I'll give you a hint what worked for me. I tightened the baling wire 2 turns and used another roll of duct tape.   ;D

The new computers have 4 and 5 squirrels inside that run around and make it work. My old, obsolete computer started out with 2 squirrels, but one of them died and the other one only has two or three legs left.   ;D

I will definitely be praying for you and Scott. I love to hear about the excitement of someone coming to Christ. Give our best wishes and encouragement to Scott.

Love In Christ,
Tom

       Reba challenged me to address Rev. 1:1-3

Revelation 1:1  "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
   2: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
   3: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

      The main points that Reba wanted addressed would be, "must shortly come to pass" and "for the time is at hand"

      Why? Because some people believe that all that was written in the Book of Revelation was completed 1900 years ago. Some do not believe in the literal interpretation, and therefore must see the Book as figurative, symbolic but not literal. They will have you believe that the millenium has began 1900 years ago and that it was not a literal 1000 years as promised.

"must shortly come to pass" and "for the time is at hand" misunderstood can have devastating results. Why study prophecy, when it must ALL be symbolic anyways right? Wrong! Why believe in a literal millenium as promised. The Jews and Israel are no longer important to God then right? Wrong!

      These two little statements have caused many to misunderstand the Book of Revelation and ignore the book as meaningless symbolism instead of studing the book as the Lord's Revelation to us of His future plans. This leads one to view prophecy as a waste of time, and to believe that THIS is the millenium and has been for centuries. WRONG!

     This leads to a LAZY approach to the study of Scripture, why bother to study what can be interpreted so many different ways. The Beast (Antichrist) and his #666 must be symbolic and not taken literally. Antichrist's reign of 42 literal months or 1,260 literal days can be ignored as well. Daniel's 70th week can be dismissed as well and on and on down the slippery slope you will slide. Why? all because of two statements being misunderstood. A true understanding of prophecy and all Scripture as a whole, hang in the balence of these two statements. These statements were given to show imminency, that these things would "begin" to take place shortly was to motivate the reader that the time was approaching. The letters to the seven Churches has prophetic meanings and did begin 1900 years ago so the statements were true. We've all read that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years...

     What does your interpretation do for you? Does it motivate you to study deep into Revelation or cause you to ignore the book in your studies? Do you believe in a literal 1000 year millenial kingdom?  Do you believe in the literal return of Christ? Do you study prophecy or ignore the study because it seems pointless to study it?  What effect do these verses of Scripture have on you?

      Do you understand the Book of Revelation? Do you want to? Did God waste His time giving us a detailed prophetic look at the future?

      What is the effect these words ("must shortly come to pass" and "for the time is at hand") have on you and your view of Scripture? They motivate me, and they have motivated generations before me, which was in fact their very purpose. What effect would saying "it will be at least 1900 years before the Lord Jesus Christ returns" have had? There would be NO CHURCH today. Christianity would have faded away by now.

     Do you think I'm "spinning" this or does it make some sense?

    I ask you, "what does your view do for you?"

                                                     Paul2



     

paul2,

Welcome back, I wondered what happened to you?

I am still interested to hear, how you define the saints at Revelation 11:18, clearly they are on the earth, and if not those, how about the saints of Rev 13:7.

How do these differ from those that make up the body of believers  (Body of Christ).

If I remember correctly you stated, the rapture occured at Rev 4 or 5, and the rest of Revelation was chronologically in order of events.

Or did I hear wrong.

Blessings,

Petro

       Petro,

     As you know I believe in the Pre-Tribulation, Pre-Millenial, Rapture and completion of the Church. The Church will be completed and Raptured before the 70th week of Daniel. I believe the Bible teaches this but it requires the most study to understand it. The more one studies prophecy throughout the Bible, the more clear of a picture is painted.

 Including "purpose". There are reasons for everything that will someday occur. People who do not study prophecy will most likely be "Amillenial", believing that the Book of Revelation is figurative, symbolic, historical, that there is no 1000 year literal kingdom in Israel, no literal "Antichrist" that has a numbered time to rule (42 months, the last half of Daniel's future 70th week). They see the Book as symbolic and believe that the Kingdom is spiritual.

     Those who study a little prophecy will be mostly Post-Tribulation believers, who see the Rapture and the second coming as the same event, missing the purpose for the Rapture. They believe the Church will remain on earth and be subject to AntiChrist's wrath, not to mention the wrath of the Lamb which they somehow seem to ignore.

      Those who study further end up with "Mid- Tribulation Rapture believers. They realize that the Rapture and Second Coming of Jesus Christ to the earth are to different events, but think the Church must go through the first half of Daniel's 70th week. Why? they haven't studied enough yet. The Rapture is a mystery, a puzzle if you will.

     I want you to picture in your mind that I've made a literal puzzle out of Scriptures. There is a picture with Scripture written on top of each puzzle piece. When the puzzle is completed a complete picture will be seen under the scripture quotes. Each verse about the Second coming, the millenial kingdom, the Rapture, the Judgements, Antichrist, and all the prophecies about the end times being one piece of the puzzle independantly. Every verse is written on a seperate puzzle piece. When you start to fit more and more "pieces" of puzzle scriptures together the more clearly you start to get the picture.

     Now, picture a completed puzzle, all pieces in place and complete picture in the background. Imagine the Picture beneath the words is a pictoral timeline with the events of the endtimes , the Rapture of the Church, Antichrist, The Second Coming, ect.ect. and then imagine me taking 4 or 5 important pieces to the puzzle away. Imagine that I take the 5 most important pieces that are critical to understand the time line correctly and show someone the incompleted puzzle picture and ask them what they see. If I take away the Pre-Tribulation verses, they will see a mid-tribulation picture. If I take away a few more verses, the picture becomes Post- millenial, take away more pieces to the prophetic puzzle and the picture turns to Amillenial. Put all the pieces of scripture together correctly and the picture is Pre-Tribulation.

     The Church is completed and Raptured, Finished, prefected, and Glorified before the 70th week of Daniel begins. Those left behind that witness the Rapture with their own eyes (like people I've told about the Rapture in advance, the people who say "I'll believe it when I see it") and realize that they missed the Rapture because of unbelief, who accept Christ after the Rapture, will become "SAINTS". They will be martyred SAINTS. Saint meaning Saint as in the Old Testament Saint. Saints of the Old Testament were "led" by the Holy Spirit but NOT indwelt with the Spirit. The Church is a special Body of believers that was INdwelt by the Holy Spirit.

     The Saints of the tribulation will be led by the Holy Spirit. They are not part of the Church, but a seperate group. The Church believed without having to SEE proof. Faith and Grace belong to the Church. Tribulation Saints are different. They didn't believe by faith, they believe because it was made real to them. It was proven to them that will believe. They missed the Rapture because they couldn't believe it until they saw it. Proof and WRATH belong to the Tribulation Saints, who must be willing to surrender their lives and be Be-headed by AntiChrist rather than receive the mark of the Beast. They will be a seperate group from the Church, just as Old Testament Saints are a seperate and distinct group apart from the Church. Tribulation Saints will undergo Wrath, Daniel's 70th week, Antichrist, and most will be martyred. There are different ETERNAL DESTINIES for The Church, Old Testament Saints, and Tribulation Saints.

     I don't know what you really want answered. Explain what specifically you want addressed. I'm trying to make it clear but I'm not sure of what your question is.

                                                            Paul2

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

It's been some time since I studied the Rapture and the Tribulation Period in detail. I'm looking for my notes and passages of Scripture that I found very interesting. I think that one subject in this area would be very helpful to those who think that they can lose their Salvation. I'll try to get the specifics, but I bet you will know what I mean.

There are portions of Scripture that specifically deal with those who become saved during the Tribulation Period. Some use these Scriptures in attempting to prove that people can lose their Salvation, but they don't apply to the Church which is the Body of Christ that has already been Raptured. Yes, I believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. If I remember correctly, a portion taken out of context is "Those who will endure until the end." Sorry, I had a "honey-do" to take care of and will be more specific later. I'm more afraid of my wife than I am of you.   ;)

I've always thought that absolute assurance of Salvation was and is a precious Promise of God. If you could address the Tribulation Saints, I think that you will also address the doubts some portions of Scripture cause for God's children of today who WILL NOT be here during the Tribulation Period. I'll join in with you when I find my notes and finish the "honey-do". This is a hot topic for some, but I honestly believe that doubts about Salvation makes the devil happy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Bep if this aint the place to ask  just remove my post  i wont be angry  >:(

background... born and raised a dispy waiting for rapture and the great tribulation...


How is one saved through the trib? How is salvation via the trip not a second chance, or maybe you believe it is... Salvation is only through HIS blood not the blood of martors (sp) correct?

paul2,

I am asking you, how are the saints, which make up the body of Christ, different from the saints which are spoken of who go through the great tribulation?

Now, before you answer this question, picture yourself as a saint, reading your bible, while being hunted down in persecution during the great tribulation.

If the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs after the rapture of the saints from the earth and before the great tribulation and return of Christ to set up His millenial reign on the earth.
 
What about;

Heb 11
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


As a saint going thru the tribulation, the promise of God would be of no effect, in this case.

That there will saints who go through the great tribulation is certain.  (Rev 13:7-10, 14:11-13)

If you are a saint and those who go through the great tribulation are Called saints at Rev 13.

In order to teach a pre-millenial rapture;

You have to teach, some saints are in the body of Christ and some are not.

How do you reconcile this idea, that some saints are in Christ  and, some are not in Christ??

Seen that those that do not make the marriage supper of the lamb, remain outside His body, .............................is not the union of the members of the body of Christ;

the perfection Heb 11:40 is speaking of??

The body of Christ is total sum of all the elect, all of the elect are called saints or is this some wild thought, that has no scriptural basis??

The biggest problem I see, with the teaching of a pre-trib rapture, is the idea of the marriage supper of the Lamb which is taught with it, I presume that when Jesus said;

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.  Mat 26:29

He was speaking of drinking the cup at his wedding feast, in the presence of all the elect saints,  and ALL would be included at it.

Where have I gone, wrong??



Petro

Oklahoma Howdy to Reba,

Sister, I think this is a great question and perfect for here. You are 1000% correct that Salvation is still only through Jesus and HIS blood, not because of any persecution or death the person endures. If it's a second chance, it would be a very hard second chance. They will be hunted, tortured, and killed. I think that Paul2 has all of this information at his fingertips. I'll have to find my notes or start over.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Does not the OT look  forward  to the Cross are we not to look back to the Cross?

The Cross of Christ is the center of all correct?

Are we now to look to a time of tribulation for salvation?

Col 1:20

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
KJV

Col 2:14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
KJV

Heb 12:1-2
12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
KJV
  ( cross meaning the death ressurection the whole enchilada)

      Petro,

    Lets take this one point at at time to avoid confusion.

    You mentioned the "elect". The "elect" are "elected" to something and thats a good place to start. The "elect are elected to Salvation and Eternal life. Lets not add anymore to the "elect" other than election to Salvation and Eternal life.

    Would that definition of the elect, cover the Old Testament Saints, who were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Yes. Would that defintion cover the 144,000 witnesses from the 12 tribes of Israel? Yes. Would that definition cover the Church? Yes. Would that definition cover Tribulation Saints? Yes. So far using the definition of the "Elect" as "elected unto Salvation and Eternal life" fits all the different groups that will receive Salvation and Eternal life.

    There is a difference between Old Testament Saints and the Church. The Church is the body of Christ. Old Testament Saints are not part of the body of Christ. The body of Christ is "indwelt with the Holy Spirit, Old Testament Saints were not. Old Testament Saints had an earthly Temple where sacrifices were offered. The Church has no earthly Temple and doesn't offer sacrifices because the Church is the Temple, Church Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, resulting in our bodies becoming the Temple of the Holy Spirit. The Church offers no sacrifice because Jesus is the Sacrifice that ended all other sacrifices. There is a difference between Old Testament Saints and the Church Saints, they can not be lumped together as the body of Christ, they are different entirely.

    The 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel are seperate and distinct from the Church. They serve a different role than the Church, and have their own special eternal destiny. They are also seperate from the Old Testament Saints, a group all to themselves.

    Not all those who receive Salvation and Eternal life are part of the Church, the body of Christ. Old Testament Saints are not part of the Church, never were, never will be. Their destiny is the 1000 year earthly millenial kingdom, before Eterity begins.

     Problems arise when you add to much to the meaning of the "elect" and when you try to make all who receive Salvation and Eternal life part of the body of Christ, the Church.

     I'll continue on in my next post.

                                                          Paul2

     Black-Eyed-Pees,

       Tom, find your notes and lets settle this contraversal subject of the Tribulation Saints.There are so many passages to consider this is indeed a major challenging study. When ever Israel (the nation) is considered to be spiritually the Church, or whenever Old Testament Saints are considered to be part of the Church things fall apart fast. So many topics come into place, Salvation, once saved always saved, the elect, pre-destination, free will, grace, wrath, Rapture, Second Coming, Millenium and the list just gets bigger and bigger the deeper we go. Many prophecies have more than one literal meaning.

     A difficult study for sure but also worth the effort. Find your notes and we'll go through the Scriptures, in the search of the truth.

                                                 Paul2 8)

OK.  I am with you, please do not add anything more to your post.

As I would like to clear this point up.

So what you are saying is the the present day Saints are members of the Body of Christ, is this correct??

And furthermore, are saying, that Abraham and all the men of faith, mentioned in Heb 11; are not members of the Body of Christ??


If so;

How do you arrive at this idea??

Gen 15:6 tells us,

Abraham, believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

And if it were not for the NT, we would assume that He just simply believed and worshipped God the Father; yet;

Heb 11, tells us;
8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
cont'd.............

At Gen 14:8, he (Abraham) met Melchisedek King of Salem, the priest of the most high God. who blessed Abraham, who paid Him tithes.

At Heb 6:20, we read that Jesus "the forerunner is for us who entered in" to that Holy Place (Heb 9:12) into the heavens (Heb 8:1) wherein He "set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Heb 12:2)

We understand by these things Abraham together with these, believed Jesus, and trusted in Him, note:

Heb 11    cont'd................
11  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14  For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.
18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20  By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21  By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22  By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23  By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.

So you can see, that Abraham,Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and all these listed at Heb 11, trusted in Jesus, for their salvation, not the law, nor animal sacrifices.

Now at;

Heb 9
24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Are these faithful men included??

It is not clear to me, what you are saying about Abraham??  He never sacrificed at any temple, and clearly he believed in God providing His own sacrifice, for a blood offering for the remission of sin.

The scriptures are clear, that we, that are of the same faith as faithfull Abraham are heirs with him of the promises made to His seed, refering to Jesus (Gen 15:18, Gal 3:16)

As I see it, we and Abraham are inseparably linked together at Gal 3:9-18, and this blessing has nothing to do with the nation of Israel.

The Mosaic Levitical sacrificial system of worship had not been establsihed, when God made these promises to Abraham..

Please explain all this, before you move along.

You have said alot, but it needs to be explained.

Thank You,

and God Bless,

Petro




    The 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel are seperate and distinct from the Church. They serve a different role than the Church, and have their own special eternal destiny. They are also seperate from the Old Testament Saints, a group all to themselves.

    Not all those who receive Salvation and Eternal life are part of the Church, the body of Christ. Old Testament Saints are not part of the Church, never were, never will be. Their destiny is the 1000 year earthly millenial kingdom, before Eterity begins.

     Problems arise when you add to much to the meaning of the "elect" and when you try to make all who receive Salvation and Eternal life part of the body of Christ, the Church.

     I'll continue on in my next post.

                                                          Paul2

paul2,

This one verse by itself almost totally rejects the idea, that Jews in other dispensations are not indwelt by the Spirit, I have never seen a verse that says, saints during the tribulation will not be..

Eph 2
11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13  But now in Christ Jesus ("in Christ" that is to say, in the body) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


These are powerfull verses, which practically destroy any teaching, jews and gentiles are separate entities, that is to say separate saints, in or out of the church (the body of Christ)

(the rest of the passage)

20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Look at this last verse, ???????

Are tribulation saints, exculded form the indwelling Spirit of God??


These are just simple thoughts off the top of my head I have, without getting into the actual study of this subject.

Blessings,

Petro

    Petro,

     I read the verses you posted from Ephesians.

    First of all, it seems to me that the point of the verses is there is no difference between Jewish Israelite "Christians" and Gentile "Christians". As I understand it, the Jews spoken of are believers in Jesus Christ and the Gentiles are being told that they are part of the same body as the Jewish Israelite Christians.

    The easy way to make my point is this:

     A Jewish man today, Jewish by heritage, blood, that believes in Jesus is part of the Church and also part of the Remnant of Israel. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile if they are believers in Christ, they are both part of the Church.

     A Jewish man today, Jewish by heritage, blood, and the Jewish religon, that do NOT believe in Jesus, is therefore not in the Church, the body of Christ.

    It seems to me that Ephesians was speaking of believers at the time it was written. The Jews it reffered to were Christian Jews as far as I can tell.

    I don't think Paul was saying that the Jewish people who deny Christ and continued to go to the temple and offer sacrifices were to be considered part of the same body, the Church.

    Old Testament Jews were under the Law, not Grace. Old Testament Jews were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

    Revelation 11 speaks of 2 candlesticks before the Lord on earth which represent the 2 witnesses during the time of their 1,260 days of witnessing. The two witnesses are the 2 candlesticks on earth at that time.

    Revelation 1:20 tells us of 7 candlesticks which represent the 7 churches. Somehow there is a shift from 7 candlesticks representing the 7 Churches to 2 candlesticks representing the 2 witnesses. If the Rapture of the Church occurs in Revelation chapter 4, it would make sense that after all Holy Spirit indwelt Christians were Raptured, that God would send the Holy Spirit to indwell His 2 pre-chosen witnesses to accomplish their mission. Where are the other candlesticks because Revelation 11 tells us that only 2 are on earth and that they no longer represent the Churches but now represent 2 individuals, the 2 witnesses.

     I need to know if you think a Jew that denied Christ, remained Jewish, was part of the Church and reffered to by Paul in the letter to the Ephesians. Or do you recognize that both the Jews and Gentiles Paul was speaking of were both Christian believers.

    Are Jews of today considered by you to be part of the church when they still deny Christ, or are they seperate?

    Can a true Christian who has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit lose his Salvation today?

    Now, what if a Holy Spirit filled Christian were to be alive at the time of AntiChrist's mark of the Beast and accepted the mark? Would Salvation be lost?

    Any who take the mark of the Beast will be lost. If Holy Spirit indwelt Christians all are Raptured prior to the Tribulation and those who were unbelievers become believers, being led by the Holy Spirit as were the Old Testament Saints, but not indwelt by the Holy Spirit as was the Church, Salvation could indeed be lost by those who accept the mark of the beast.

    I'll give you a chance to consider these things and respond before going on. We can't continue until we establish what we believe on these important issues.

                                                      Paul2 8)

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

I think that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is definitely a key issue that may answer a lot of questions. I'm still looking for notes, but I'm afraid that I'll have to start over. I also think that the seal of the Holy Spirit is a key issue in Eternal Salvation versus saved one day and lost the next.  Thus, the Holy Spirit is also a key issue during the Tribulation Period. This is a good way to start. Let me polish up the bifocals and I'll join in as quickly as I can.

Love In Christ,
Tom

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit HE indwells the church correct?
   Rapture happens the church is gone  

 

Isa 63:11

11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
KJV

Ps 51:11

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
KJV


There is only  one salvation that Salvation is in Jesus the Christ.  There was not another salvation for the  men of old.  There is one Holy Spirit .  There is is one God.   All of Gods people look to the cross forward or backward.  Is dividing Gods people Bibical?

     When were common men, not the prophets first indwelt by the Holy Spirit? When did men first become the Temple of the Holy Spirit?

    I believe the Bible teaches that at Pentecost right after the death and resurrection of Christ, Peter and the rest of those present first received the Holy Spirit which indwelt them. Jesus promised a helper and at Pentecost the Holy Spirit began to indwell common men.

    The Body of Christ, the Church of Christ, began at Pentecost. The body of Christ serves a purpose. The Church are ambassadors for Christ. The Church is a body of believers that are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, providing bodies for Christ to use to accomplish His will. Theres a purpose for the body of Christ, the Church.
   
    I do not dispute the Salvation of Old Testament Saints. I dispute Old testament Saints being the body of Christ. The Church, the body of Christ, was and is made up of Believers who were or are now living and therefore useful as a body for Christ to use. He equiped His Church with the Holy Spirit to be useful and to have living temples for the Holy Spirit to indwell. Old testament Saints served a purpose but at the time the Church was created, they were not needed bodily. They were dead, those alive at the time of Pentecost that believed became the living body of Christ, the Church.

    Why must those who died before Christ, before the indwelling of man by the Holy Spirit at the creation of the church, be seen as the body of Christ? Christ used living bodies to make up His Church. What need does Christ have of a body that has been dead for centuries at the time of the creation of His Church? What purpose is served by a dead body in a grave? The Old Testaments Saints missions on earth were complete at the time the Church began. The Church is a body of Holy Spirit indwelt living representives, actively serving Christ.

    The 144,000 witnesses from Revelation are distintly from the 12 tribes of Israel. Are they part of the Church? Is there no difference between us and them? Why must everybody be the same. Are there not different classes of Angels? Are the not ArchAngels, Serafin, Cherabin... Why must we see everybody who ever lived and received Salvation as the body of Christ, the Church?

    Are we all Apostles? are we all prophets? If we can see the distiction between these others, why must all be considered the body of Christ, the church?

    The body of Christ, the Church, was different from the Old testament Saints. Peter was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. Christ created a seperate living body made up of believers to use in the world. Why must those who were dead at the time be considered the same as those who were indwelt by the Spirit with a purpose on earth while they lived?

    What purpose does it serve to have those who are dead and in the grave become part of the Living body of Christ?

    Old Testament Saints don't have living bodies right now. Their bodies are buried in the ground, with their bones turning to dust. They never served as members of the Church while alive, and were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit to be used as the body of Christ were they?

   Did Daniel ever preach the Gospel of Grace? Don't forget that FACT! The body of Christ, the Church, preaches the Gospel of Grace which didn't exist until Pentecost. Moses didn't teach Grace but taught the Law! Grace and the Law can not exist at the same time. If Grace, then the not the Law, if the Law then not Grace! Grace and the Law are opposed to each other. Christ created His Church to preach His Grace, not the Law. How can Old Testament Saints who were under the Law be considered part of the Church under Grace?

    I'll give you a chance to respond. I just don't understand why you feel everybody must be part of the Church which was created with a purpose, to provide living temples for Christ to use to preach the Gospel of Grace.

                                                Paul2

    Where are you Tom? maybe you can explain this better. Theres a reason I'm not posting scripture at this point and its because I want to reason things out, without having to post the entire Bible to make the point.

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

I'm simply looking forward to your presentation, studying this difficult area again, and fellowship in the WORD. I never did consider myself to be strong in this area, so my goal will be to be strengthened in this area. I may be fairly strong is some related topics, but I mainly want to be the student here. I'm fascinated by the puzzle you have put together and want to see the picture opened. I really want to study your picture, learn, and participate any way you want me to.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Oklahoma Howdy to joelkaki,

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I wouldn't give a single thought to the above. We would simply have to agree to disagree. I couldn't possibly have a serious conversation about that as a premise, so I won't try. Nothing else would make any sense either, so count me out on that discussion.

Tom

     Joel,

   Thank you, your explainatiom has explained everything I needed to know. I am now able to understand the position you and Reba share and understand why everything I say is viewed as wrong. It all makes sense to me now. I only wish I had known this from the beginning. Of course I'm considered wrong, our views are 180 degrees different.

    Funny thing is I mention Daniel's 70th week over and over in just about every post but nobody has said they believe the 70th week is already completed, which has led to the confusion. By ignoring my use of Daniel's 70th week, I assumed everybody considered it to be in the future. It all makes sense to me now!

                                                        Paul2

Howdy to you too (though not from Oklohoma),

I understand why you would say such a thing.  Dispensationalism is so widespread today, together with its future end-times scenario, that views like mine aren't heard of that much.  But as I said to Paul2, your view (pretrib) was not heard of for over 1800 years of church history.  The view I hold to has been held to historically, and is not some newfangled thing.  So I wouldn't dismiss it so lightly.  You can't act like it's crazy and yours is mainstream when yours did not appear for 1800 years of church history and mine has been around a lot longer than that.  But if you personally don't want to discuss it, then there's nothing I can do about it, and I will respect your wishes.  But I think you might be surprised at some of the things Scripture has to say about it.

Joel

OK, good, at least where we know where we are coming from.  
   As to Daniel's Seventieth Week, I see no reason for a gap.  In fact, that is one of my biggest problems with dispensational theology--there are way too many gaps.  A gap is placed in 1 Corinthians 15, in Daniel 9, and in a number of other places.  
   But I would love to discuss these things with you in a reasonable manner if you would like to.

Joel

Paul 2

I have had phone troubles all day at my home, and although I have two phones I had not been able to access this thread until, now.

Somewhere else you accuse me of being hostile to you, ?? you are dreaming, I am trying to undertsand your understanding of what you are putting out, but you keep talking in circles, semi explaining and then moving on.

It is almost as thou you feel you have to continue re iterating yourself over and over without explaining how you reach conclusions.

Anyway, you can continue without if you desire, I have other things I can work on, anyhow.............

Here, is my answer to your previous reply #195 to me.



I don't see, any reason to continue discussing the rest of your script until we resolve, your  version on your intepretation of the parable of the 10 virgins, and how you move this event to precede the great tribulation of Mat 24.

You said;


At one of your previous posts, you stated while referring to the 10 virgins oil, that it represented the Holy Spirit, (notice that all had oil for there lamps, the foolish 5 virgins, didn’t have enough oil,

 What are you implying here??

What does this mean, to you??  

The foolish virgins had some of the Holy Spirit but not enough??

Please explain this, as you go on to infer that they all will be saved, but are presently not saved??  

How do you determine this??

Previously, When I questioned you on this (concerning the parable of the  10 virgins you promptly answered the 5 foolish virgins were not part of the church), then went on to post the web page on marriage customs at your reply #107.

The information provided at this web page fails to mention that there is a period of time from the betrothal to the consummation of this marriage according to OT Biblical Marriage Customs, in the case of Jacob, he labored 7 years for Rachel and 7 years for Leah, and according to the OT it was customary to pay a “bride price” to the father of the bride to seal the marriage agreement (Ex 22:16-17, Deut 22:28-29), this was done at the betrothal, as I understand..

I can see you do, have what appears to be all of the elements of the ends times rapture scenario, covered, I think, you just simply have them out of order, for instance you start at the parable of the 10 virgins, as the day of the rapture,

but;

Somehow or other you must, (and do,) disconnect Chapter 24 of Mathew from Chap 25; yet, the very first word of Chap 25:1, indelibly connects them, note;

In order to make your understanding of this passage in your end times eschatology, you must disconnect it from Chap 24, and re arrange it to make it fit your interpretated understanding of it,  however, the fact you recognize and state, chapter 24 does not concern the church does not discount the fact chap 24 precedes chapter 25 in the order of end times prophecy, actually in doing this, you rearrange the answer the Lord has given us, in order to fit your interpretation of this things.

The NT Greek-English Interlinear reads as follows;

25  Then will be made like the kingdom of the heavens [to] ten virgins who having taken their lamps went forth to meet the bridegroom.[/b]  ..........if you recal this is the point raised by Reba, first.............

The word them[/b] #5119, tote;  tot-eh that of the past or future, also in consecution ei: that time ,then.

Clearly the word tote at the beginning of this  passage is used in the present tense. after these things which were just explained and then in an uninterrupted succesive order, or consecutively at this verse, in a sequential manner to those things which have just occurred according to the Lord. as befalling the earth, which are the signs of His coming leading up this point.  

I know this is a mouthful but, I trust you understand, that if this is so, your rapture does not begin at the beginning of the tribulation but at the end.

Understanding , Mat 24:21-29 is the key to understanding the rest of all these things.

Now you dismiss, Mat 24:29, claiming the chapter is speaking of  the Jews only, interestingly , I assume you do not feel the same way about the parallel passages at Mk 13, Luke 21 however,  this is not in line with the Gospel’s message which is directed to ALL who believe and trust the Lord,

I ask you to, Visualize this for a moment, (this may be a good script), You being a gentile, if you could have asked the Lord then, the same question,;

“Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

What would be His answer be to you, and to me (which would include me and all others in the 21st century, who have no it been born yet..but will have faith to the saving of the soul, at this time, and desire to know these things)  and all other gentile Christians, who at the time this question was raised did not exist;  

I say the answer would be the same one, since the signs leading up to His return involve the Nation of Israel and the Jews....you see??



These verses at Chap 25, is a continuation of what the Lord is teaching at Chap 24,  it is understood, that,  what he is saying follows what he has already said.

This is what you need to get straightened out in your understanding, so that the order of your thoughts you are putting down on paper agree with scripture, not the other way around...

This is why you need a timeline, not a script...the script can come later.

Blessings,  
Petro

We haven't moved at all from where we ended, our last posts concerning the identification of who are identified as the  "called elect chosen saints", and whether these comprise the "church" or not, The body of Christ.

The next question that goes unanswered is "Who is the woman of Rev 12", I maintain she is the woman who produced the Godly seed, which would bruise the serpents head of Gen 3:15, which would be the church, the true children of the promises of God. (Gal 4:22-28)

So, if you are a member of the Body of Jesus, you are included with Issac;

 "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." (Gal4:28),

and all the children of the promise "are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:6-8)

The most daming information given to us by the scriptures, which deny a secret rapture before the second coming of Jesus to the earth, is given in His own words at Mat 24.

Supposedly the principle teaching for a Pre Tribulation rapture is that only those who look for Jesus's return will be "caught up" into the heavens, yet Jesus said;

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  (Mat 24:27-30)

What I have emboldened is one of the signs of His coming. A heavenly sign which is; "as the lightning cometh out of the east, shineth even unto the west", which causes "all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

Pre Tribbulation adherents contradict Jesus own words, by teaching His coming is secretive and in the dark. No one will see Him, except the chosen few who are raptured.

John the Apostle said;

Rev 1
7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And then Jesus follows this by stating;

8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Christians do not need to be taken to and fro, with every whim of teaching by the slight of mans interpretations, a simple historical study of the church fathers, and what they believed and taught concerning this matter, reveals the they were futurist and Pre Millennialists, they believed the words of Revelation, the prophecies of Daniel and the warnings and promises of Jesus to refer to definite, literal, future events, and that the Return of Christ would come BEFORE and LEAD TO a literal thousand-year reign of righteousness and peace on earth. There was nothing taught of a Pre Trib Rapture

Pre Tribulation teachings didn't appear on the church scene until the 1830's, when a young 15 year old scottish girl, had visions by the name of Margarte MacDonald.

" that some Christians would see Christ coming, not with the natural eyes, but only with Spiritual eyes...meaning of course that the rest of the world would not see Him.

Most Pre Tribulationists do not even know this (this was an original teaching of the Pre Trib position), and have no real biblical explanation why the rest of the world will not see Him.

Pre-tribulationism was born within a small body of Latter-Rain, Zionist charismatics engaging in false prophecies.

The biggest promoter of this doctrine was a man by the name of Edward Irving who promoted a secret return of Jesus, even the late self styled Patsor Charles Taze Russell, who founded the Watchtower Society (Jehovah Witnesses) predicted an invisible return of Jesus in 1886.

According to;

("The Incredible Cover-up" Dave MacPherson, Omega Publications)

"The rapture is of course not an easy event to counterfeit, but the Latter Rainists are still with us today, stronger than ever, and they are working hard to re-define the rapture, as a transformation event to occur not in the clouds, but on earth as a Rosicrucian-like process called "Manifest Sons of God." In this process, the Christians are supposed to take on amazing bodies while still here on earth, so as to turn the world into the Millennium, apart from the visible appearance of Jesus. It's a grand hoax, so watch for it."

I trust these issues which are raised will spur us on to study, the Good Word, and pray diligently the Comforter, will lead us into all truth concerning these things.

Blessings,
Petro

Petro wrote:


When you compare your passage with the following, it becomes apparent that they are the same event.

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Sounding very much like what is described in Matthew about the birds gathering to eat the flesh of the dead.

Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This verse makes it clear that this is the second coming...actual return to earth.  Verse 21 says the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.   IMO this is the second coming, not the ratpure.  Of course, placing the rapture of the church at this point would be a post trib event, which seems to have problems with other verses.   For example, if it happens at this time, when we go to fathers house where Jesus is preparing mansions for us?  (John 14:2)    Who is the army seen following Christ dressed in fine white linnen?  I say Jude 1:14.  And if we are seen coming with him, then we left long before this event and have been dwelling in heavenly mansions.

To me it becomes a real problem trying to seperate Matthew 24:27-30 and Revelation 19:11-21.   The more I study Matthew 24, the less I believe it references the rapture.  I think its focus is more on tribulation period.  The church is not even established at that point.

Another problem is the overlapping of dispensations.  Let me say right off the bat, that I lack knowledge in this area of scripture, but I do know that there are no examples of this anywhere else in the bible.  If the 70th week begins at the beginning of the tribulation, and the rapture happens at mid or end, then we get overlapping dispensations.   There was no church during the first 69 weeks, so it makes sense that there will be no church during the last week.  (I will leave this argument for you and Paul2 however, as I am not equipped to debate it....hopefully you guys can shed more light on this.)

As for Margaret McDonnald.   As I understand it, her vision  looked for a fiery trial which is to try us, and she foresaw the Church being purged by the Antichrist.  This certainly does not sound like a pre-trib rapture view to me.

The following clip comes from a well known pre-trib web site.   I have no idea how true it is, but the article is interesting.
*****************************************
John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory." Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time.” No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: “Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza." Lately, a number of other sources have been located that teach the pretribulation rapture--some written as early as the second century. Where does this leave Margaret MacDonald?
******************************************

Of course, I don't accept the above as gospel, but it appears to dash the McDonnald vision as the origin of pre-trib teaching.   Most modern day pre-trib teachers will say that their doctrine is based on inspired word of God rather than McDonnald or anyone else for that matter.   While this adds another dimension to the pre-mid-post debate, I hardly see how it makes or breaks any view.   There were many who missed how the first coming of messiah would happen.   And it did happen in a way that most Jews thought it would not.   So this brings us full circle again.

When will it happen, and how does scripture say it will happen?

Grace and Peace!

 Revelation 22:7 "Behold, I come quickly[/i]: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."[/b]

     At the Rapture people on earth do not see Christ standing ON-TOP of the clouds calling His Church to meet him on the clouds. In a split second Christians vanish. Our cloths, dental fillings, glasses, makeup, ear rings, and jewelry will fall to the ground as our bodies are transformed from mortal to immortal and instantly are present with Jesus on top of the clouds.

    From earth we can not see a man standing at 30,000 ft above the clouds. Earth will not see Christ at the Rapture. Earth will witness Christians vanish, dematerialize, leaving behind clothes, jewelry, and everything that was not our DNA.

   People on earth see a vanishing, the church will probably be refered to as "those taken" or something. ("have you heard from so and so? No, he was taken!") Antichrist will offer a wicked lie to deceive earth from what really took place at the Rapture of the Church. He will blaspheme us who will be dwelling in Heaven at that point. If earth saw Jesus standing up there at the Rapture, they wouldn't be deceived by Antichrist, after seeing the True Lord, Jesus Christ floating above on a cloud.

    At the second Coming of Christ to the earth he will decend from the clouds to the earth. People will witness a slow decent. It will be a sign! They will witness an army of White horses riden by the church, lead by Christ slowly decend to earth. This will be an all day event, people around the world will look up and see the army of the Lord filling the sky above their heads. When the whole world has seen the army of the Lord above in the sky the Lord Jesus Christ will decend down to touch down on the mount of Olives fulfilling Zechariah 14.

Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.[/u]"

    The above verse is not the Rapture, its the Second Coming, a different event entirely. All kindreds of the earth shall WAIL because of him. This isn't the Church going up to the clouds to meet Christ in the air on the clouds at the Rapture. At the Rapture, the Bride, the Church will called out of the world and to the clouds by Jesus Christ,the brideGroom. We will meet the Lord in the air and will be taken to the place Jesus prepared for us in John 14:3, to the fathers house, for the wedding week in Heaven. The above verse is when the wedding week is over in Heaven as well as the 70th week of Daniel is over on earth, its the final day of Daniel's 70th week and Christ is seen by earth with his WIFE, the Church being presented to the world. The earth is horrified at the sight of the Lord and His army. The world watches as we the church decend with Jesus with the clouds. The earth will be able to look up and see us slowly decending closer and closer as hours go by. The earth will rotate so all eyes will see the Lord and his army filling the sky above their heads. When the world rotates and Jerusalem is underneath Jesus he will decend down to touch down on the mount of Olives.

    Revelation chapter 19 records the Second Coming not the Rapture. Verse 7 states that the Wife has been made ready. The Wife of the Lord Jesus had been in Heaven for the wedding week while Daniel's 70th week takes place on earth and is now being presented as the Wife of the Lamb, the marriage has been consumated and now the wife is being presented, and the wedding feast will begin when the Lord Jesus' feet touch down and he Judges the nations and gathers his sheep and banishes the goats.

     2nd Timothy,

    I know you know this stuff but I'm answering your question for others to read. At the Rapture people left behind will see Christians vaporize or dematerialize in a split second, they will not see Christ on the clouds. They also will not hear His shout thats calls the Church to the clouds. Only the Church will hear the shout at the Rapture, for only the sheep know their masters voice. Antichrist has the wicked lie to explain where the church went. At the Second Coming men will know who is coming on the clouds, they will WAIL because they know its Jesus Christ coming to destroy those who accepted the mark of the beast.

    I don't know why these verses are always confused with the Rapture. the word WIFE in Revelation 19:7 should be a clue that the Church has already gone from being the Bride to being the Wife, which is presented at the end of the wedding week in Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus time. While the 70th week of Daniel takes place on earth the wedding week of the Church to Christ takes place in Heaven. The Church returns to earth with Christ, we leave the wedding chamber Jesus prepared and brought us to (John 14:3) and then we decend to earth on the clouds with him as people on earth see us coming down from the clouds and Wail!

    Why is this so difficult for some?

                                                         Paul2 8)

OK,  Rev 19:11-13 and Rev 6:2 appears to be the same event to me, also;

And the armies of Rev 19:14, appear to be made up of the souls of those mentioned in  Rev 6:11, and Rev 7:9-14, there is no evidence these are angels, but it is clear from Rev 20:4-6, that these are the souls of  them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;(Rev 20:4), in short these are  they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14)

Whether Mat 24, is speaking of a rapture or no, verses 27,29-30, makes it clear Jesus's return to earth occurs after the great tribulation, and "those armies which were in heaven "of Rev 19:14 that followed Him appear to be the great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, who stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; of Rev 7:9,14.

One would have to be in denial to claim these are verses are not connected.

Now conisder what Daniel says;

Dan 7
9  I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
18  But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
21  I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23  Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

These verses shed a consider amount of light on the end times prophecies, and clear up the times coming of the rapture considerably.

Note verses 18, the word shall places saints on the earth during the tribulation (Rev 13:7,10, 14:12, and clearly states they shall take possession (future) of the kingdom, but not until the appointed time,

2 Th 2
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now chapter 11 of Daniel is in dispute, some believe (as our brother Joel, that these things spoken herein have already come to pass, however consider the wording carefully) this could very well be language which describes the man of sin the son of perdition prior to the Second Coming according to Daniel's vision.

Dan 11
36  And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37  Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Dan 12
1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3  And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Notice verse 1 of Dan 12, "every one that shall be found written in the book."

Who are these?? And when does this occur??

Jesus said to His disciples Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. (Lk 10:20)

And the Apostle at Heb 12;

22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

There is much more to be said herein, but I will break here, and will answer the rest of your post later.

Blessings,

Petro

Concerning the perparing of mansions, all Jesus ever said was;
Jhn 14
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

You have to assume Jesus comes twice to make this theory fit, once to come and return imediately to His Fathers House, with only the Pre Tribulation Saints, since this is the teaching of Pre Tribulationism, however, scriptures clearly teaches the saints will be wherever He is, if his return is to the earth at His second Coming, it will be to establish His millenial Kingdom on the earth, and according to Rev 19:14 and Rev 7:14-15, these who tend at the throne of God, came out of the great tribulation.

Which agrees with scripture, Rev 6:11 and those of Rev 7:14-15, are raised at His Second Coming,

At verse Jhn 14:3, He simply states;

 [/b]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also[/b]
 
If He comes to earth to reign 1000 years, that is where His saints will be, with HIM, that is why ;
1 Th4, says;
17  ..................... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  
This occurs at His second coming and not before.

And besides, What you are describing at Rev 19,  is the wrath (Judgments) of God upon the earth on the ungodly. being poured out, compare this with Zephaniah 1:7-2:2, and Zec 14:1-16, and the beginning of the Millenial Reign of Christ at Jerusalem.

The rapture occurs at His Second Coming, where in scripture do you read of another Pre Second Coming return, if there is one?,  then Mat 24, would be speaking of His Third Coming.


That is why the saints of Rev 13;7,10, 14:12, have to be defined, My question still remains,

What makes these saints, diferent from the saints of  say, Eph 2:19-22??

I will admit I am no brain,

But any honest individual that looks at Eph 2:19-22, and compares them to those saints of Rev 13:7,10 and Rev 14:12, if he is honest will admit there is no difference between them,

They are saints because they are called, chosen elect saints of the household of God;

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom ALL the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Blessings,

Petro

Another point I am raising, is that Rev 7:14 appears to include tha same individuals that Rev 20:1-9 mentions;  

At  vs4   "these were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reign with Christ 1000 years."

Note verses;

5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And,

6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These are raised at the rapture, which is the first resurrection.(1 Th 4:16)

What verses are relied upon to exclude these that came out of the great tribulation from being members of the body of Christ, they are not only called "saints" at Rev 20:9 but  "priests" at vs  6.??

Petro

So, on the same note;

Rev 20
4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Verse above, practically single handedly destroys the Pre Trib, and Mid Trib theories, since it is clear that the souls of these who are spoken of were  produced by their  

refusal to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

According to verse 4 they not only are killed for this reason, but they also are raised to life and reign with Christ 1000 years.

When are they raised??

At the end of the great tribulation, at Christs second coming, are not these those who are spoken of at 1 Th 4:16;??

the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If the church (those that sleep, and those who remain alive) are caught up in the air ) returns to rule with Christ of the earth, it is clear these of Rev 20, are a part of it all.

How is the theory, that only His church (those who attend the wedding feast during the 7 year period of the tribulation), who those not go through the Great Tribulation, will come to reign with Him 1000 tears on the earth??

Are there any answers for this apparent inconsistency??

Anybody??




Blessings,

Petro

 

    No, these are not the Church in Christ spoken of in 1 Thess. 4:16-17. These are Tribulation Saints who were not taken at the Rapture of the Church because they didn't believe in Christ at the time of the Rapture. Tribulation Saints are raised at the Second Coming, not the Rapture of the Church because at the time of the Rapture of the Church in Christ they were not believers in Christ.


    Yes, Tribulation Saints are part of it at the Second Coming, not before the Second Coming.

Revelation 19:14  "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

    Notice verse 14 above says "armies", not army. Armies shows divisions in the armies. The Church that was Raptured is one division of the armies, the Tribulation Saints are another division in the Armies. the word "Army" would be a single army, all the same division, but the word used is plural, "Armies" which supports different divisions of the army, making them plural as "armies". The Tribulation Saints are resurrected the day of the Second Coming and become a division in the Lord's Armies, alongside of the Raptured Church's division of the Lords armies.

    Problem is you place the Rapture and the Second Coming at the same time, which they are not. You must place the Wrath of the Lamb after the Second Coming because you know the Church will not be under wrath. Problem is that the wrath begins at Daniel's mid-week!

2 Thessalonians 2:10: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
   11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
   12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

     At the Daniel's Mid Week, the Beast(Antichrist) receives authority from Satan for 42 months. Satan offered authority to Jesus in the desert but Jesus refused the offer, Antichrist will accept the offer. God gave men 1260 days from the beginning of Daniel's 70th week to the midweek, with the 2 witnesses prophezing to make up their minds. At the midweek a decision must be made, times up, those who came to faith will be persecuted, those who rejected the truth will be sent a strong delusion by God Himself that they should believe the big lie of Antichrist. If this isn't the Wrath of God, what is it? God is blinding men to the truth and sending them delusions that they believe Antichrist's lie and accept the mark of the beast, which eternally damns them. This is the Wrath of God! It begins when the Great tribulation begins at Daniel's Midweek.

    For the record when God sends a person a delusion that will cause them to be eternally damned that person's experiencing the Wrath of God, theres no grace, no mercy, only wrath when God is sending delusions to deceive people from believing the truth so they believe a lie which will cause damnation! The Church will never experience the wrath of God, but the Tribulation Saints will, and will be presecuted and martyred. If men haven't placed faith in Christ by the middle of Daniel's 70th week, God will send them the delusion that will cause them to believe the big lie of Antichrist and accept his mark. When the Midweek of Daniel's 70th week occurs, the Great Tribulation and wrath of the Lamb begin. Decision day will have come! If men haven't accepted Christ by the Midweek, God will send them the delusion which will cause them to accept Antichrist and his mark, which will damn them. This is the Wrath of God!
 
                                                       


       When God directly causes people to miss the truth and believe a lie that will eternally damn them, this is not Wrath?
      What is it then?

                                                        Paul2 8)
     

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

AMEN BROTHER!

I think that you are right on target. I'm hoping to participate more here when health situations for my wife and I settle down some. I am still studying along with you about 4 hours a day, but I don't feel well enough to post on such a complex topic right now.

At this point, I would simply point out that writing off prophecy as visions instead of reality to come is a serious error. I would also state with certainty that one must separate the Church which is the Body of Christ from those who will be saved during the Tribulation Period. In the absence of this serious consideration, Prophecy and the Tribulation Period make no sense.

Prophecy in the Holy Bible is not simply dreams and visions. There is an obvious and significant purpose for all prophecy, and that purpose is literal reality of the future.

Literally, the Church which is the Body of Christ will be "caught up" (raptured) before the beginning of the Tribulation Period.

Literally, there will be a 7 year Tribulation Period.

Literally, the anti-christ will reign over the earth for the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. The anti-christ is not a system or object, rather a real entity.

Literally, there will be a Second Coming of Christ, separate and distinct from the Rapture.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Petro, sorry so long getting back to this.  Been very busy as of late.   Let me try to quickly hit on a few points in this one post.   I promise I will try to catch up with some of the other points when time permits.


I have heard others say they believe this also, but for me it does not make sense to say they are the same.

COMPARE:
Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

No mistake who this passage speaks of.

Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Here it is not so clear in the text.  First off, the rider in 6:2 is wearing ONE crown that is given to him.  Note that the man of sin will declare himself God.   He is also seen overpowering the Saints later on.  We know he will be powerful, as people will say, "who can make war with the beast".  I believe this rider is the Antichrist not Christ.  In 19:12 the rider is wearing MANY crowns.  The rider in 6 only has one.   I could see how one would equate that to christ, but the same could be said of the Beast or Antichrist during this time.   Daniel 9 indicates that the antichrist weapon of choice will start as peace.  I believe this ties into the discription of Rev 6:2, the rider carrying a bow, no mention of arrows.   If the rider in chapter 6 is Christ, the 3 riders that follow seem to mess up any conquering done by the first, if it were speaking of Christ.   However, if the first rider is the Antichrist, the other 3 riders following in sequence make much better sense as to what sort of conquering he is doing.   For me, the first rider as Christ does not fit the events described in Chapter 19.   It certainly does not fit a pre-wrath view.


If I follow you here, you have Christ returning in chapter 6 and 19 as the same event, (litteral second coming) the armies are the marters which are killed at the fifth seal, yet they are seen in your interpretation appearing with Christ at the first seal and have yet to be martered?   This does not make any sense to me what so ever.

I have to stop here, otherwise I'm going to be late for work.  Will try to hit on the rest of this sometime tonight or tomorrow.

Grace and Peace!

2d Tim,

Hey don't feel as thought you need to answer every question I raise, if somebody does or doesn't, it won't end the world, My aim to get people to read the bible, and make an effort to get intot he Word, rather than depending of what others believe and just simply agreeing with them, what is important is to get to know the word of God.

Buit actually, You nned to read what I was answering to;




Note what IO was answering to;


All I said, is I agreed (with you) that it appears to be the same event (Rev6:2), This is only one verse, and it is not clear one way or the other, to me, it simply appears to be the same white horse, whith its rider.

All John says about this is he was in the Spirit on the Lords day , when he saw this vision in heaven.

My point at Rev 6, is directed more so, to those who are referred to as the "souls of them, that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"








Well, your guess is just as viable as any other. If it is as you say, the first seal would be the mid-tribulation according to your take, on this.

Either way, the souls of those slain for the word of God at Rev 6:9-11, cannot be rulled out as being those who have been martyred for the faith of Jesus, or (dead church members).

To simply say, these are not does not explain the reason why they are omitted, and this seems to be what is being said.

Since John is seeing this in a vision, it is not determined, whether he conisders these to include himself.


If I follow you here, you have Christ returning in chapter 6 and 19 as the same event, (litteral second coming) the armies are the marters which are killed at the fifth seal, yet they are seen in your interpretation appearing with Christ at the first seal and have yet to be martered?   This does not make any sense to me what so ever.
No, I  never said this at all, I have maintained those of the fifth seal, at Rev 6:9-11, ulmately the same ones of Rev 20:4, and they,  end up, Reigning and rulling with Christ, this is clear to me.

When the seals are opened in relation to other things, it is not totally clear to me.


I stated it appears to be this way, in answer to youre statement.  The seals and the trumpets, and other dynamics are occuring, which could be one event, yet, the way they are written, we do not know whether there is times span between them, I am raising questions,  as I see it,

and the problems caused by arbitrarily excluding some and including some, claiming some are a part of the church while other are not.

I am not setting the order of how these things are occuring, at all.

As I have stated, so I still state, Jesus promised to keep the church from the wrath of God to come, as I undersdtand this wrath begings at His return, he never promised to take the church out of the world; in fact when He prayed to the Father, He clearly asked the Father not that He should take them out of the World, speaking of the chuch;

Jhn 17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

A pre Trib or Mid Trib rapture does take the church out of the world, before His second coming.
 


As I see it.

Petro

Amen!   I am in total agreement with you here brother.


Actually, my take is that the breaking of the first seal begins Daniels 70th week, which to appears to be the Antichrist coming onto the scene conquering world power and signing his pact with Israel kicking off the first 3 1/2 years.   I think we are in agreement about Rev 6:9-11 with the exception of them being the church.  There is no question they are beheaded for their faith in Christ, but they do not account for the elders who have already been seen in heaven prior to this.   Rev 5:1 indicates that there are men already in heaven.  Rev 5:8-9 indicates that both the elders and the 4 beasts have been redeemed by the blood out of every nation, and have ALREADY been made kings and priests (Rev 1:6 also speaking to the 7 churches) and SHALL (future tense) reign on earth.   These are seen in heaven before the first seal is even broken.   I tend to agree with both Bep and Paul, that this the Church.  Clearly these are men, and clearly they withness the breaking of the fifth seal when the marters are seen under the alter.   I cannot explain how there are two groups of believers, but there certainly appears to be going by how it is written.   The current church being raptured prior to those coming to faith during the tribulation and being overcome agrees with these however.

I probably did misunderstand you on your other points....I seem to be prone to that  :(  My appologies.


Hmmm.  I do believe the seals, the bowls and the trumpets run sequentially, and not all at once.   One verse that indicates these happen in sequence is Rev 8:1-7.  The seventh seal actully initiates the sounding of the trumpets.   I know some might say that means nothing, but reading it plainly, IMO they follow a sequence.   Also considering prophecies in Daniel, Ezekiel etc.  the battle of Gog and Magog, the 200 million man army that attacks, the number of days mentioned in both Daniel and Revelation for various periods of time, I don't believe its a stretch to say they seals, trumpets and bowls have a sequential order and some even appear to bring about the next.


I hear you Petro.   We have also spoken about this verse before.   The only answer I can offer here is that God would have taken these given to Christ at that time out of the world because of their faith in Christ, and because they were not of this world...just as we are.  Just as Enoch was.  The only difference is, that those prayed for were to continue the work that Jesus was leaving behind.  (Just as he was sent into the world, so he would send them into the world.)  We the Church carry on the work that Jesus started.  Spreading his truth, mercy and Love to the lost.   This could not be done if they were removed.  Does that mean we will never be taken out of the earth, ever?   We know from other scripture that we certainly will be caught up and removed from the earth at some point.  The question is when.  So what was the purpose of Jesus' prayer in John 17?  Not to ever remove believers from planet earth?  I don't think so.   It was to finish the work that Jesus started...preaching the gospel to all nations to the ends of the earth.   So again we arrive at the 49 thousand dollar question.  When will we be changed, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

I still believe that day will happen before the great tribulation, mainly because in my mind, it fits the sequence of events best that are layed out in scripture.   No, there not one particular verse that says..."the church is raptured before the trib", but looking at all the events described, the details of various verses, there are just too many unanswered questions with the church present during last 7 years.   I wont say all the questions are not answered with it absent, but it makes better sense with most scripture in a pre-trib scenario than any other I have considered.

Grace and Peace!

Brother Paul,

I think we are very much in agreement.   If I had to pick one point that I have read from you where I thought we may differ on, I think it would be the following passage.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I think you have said that you see this falling away as the rapture event?   At least I think thats what you have said...maybe I'm wrong?   IMO the falling away is abandonment of the church.  

Aside from this, I think we are on the same page.  I too had never heard of the McDonald girl prior to some recent debates regarding the rapture timing.   She certainly has no bearing on my view of the rapture.   While its a difficult study as Tom has said, I believe scripture supports a pre-trib rapture, and thats what I base my belief on.

Like most believers on this site, I think the majority of us are real truth seekers.   I don't believe any of us are pushing an agenda so to speak.  We want the depths of Gods truth, and search his word diligently for that truth.   Its inevetable that we will disagree at times, but that process encourages us to seek a better understand of Gods word to see if we could be wrong.   God is gracious, and his word is a precious life giving resource for us.   Whether it comes from agreement or disagreement, seeking out truths from his word is not only pleasing to him, but keeps our minds stayed on him.

Oh what a day it will be when we finally see him face to face, and behold the Lord Jesus, God almighty - Alpha and Omega!  

I hope it happens today!

Hope you are enjoying your vacation, and If the rapture happens, I'll see you in the air!....lol   :D

Grace and Peace!

Please ...................Give me the exact verse?? ... you rely on which causes you to believe this.

What signs do you rely on to identify the sign of the man of sin??

 I hope it isn't his signature on some document.  How about  the apostasy??

Do you see a "falling away" from the truth or is it the "departure" rapture??

 
The twenty four elder could be very well be the twelve OT Patriarchs and the twelve Apostles (Lk 22:30, Rev 21:11-14) who the 12 Patriarchs are represented by is up for grabs  (their names are symbolized by twelve stones on the breastplate Ephod] [, worn by the Hight Priest ] in the Holy place at the tabernacle of Moses/David at Ex 28:21, 39:14-15, their names are also given to the 12 gates of the the city NEW Jeruselam Rev 22:12] conisder (Isa 16:5, Amos 9:11); and the 12 Apostles had been promised to sit on thrones by Jesus to judge Israel in His kingdom.

Jesus is returning to build once again the fallen tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16, Amos 9:11)



All Rev 6:9 says is;   "when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,"...................

It seems to me, one needs to speculate, about things in order to try an build an explanation, this is what bothers me, when men start speculating and inserting answers to their own questions, building their own case up to take, it in the direction they desire it to go.  

Next thing you know men start teaching dinspired octrines which are founded on these speculative answers .



Wait a second...........hold everything...

I see, Rev 5:9-10, where the elders and beast are singing this song, but what makes you think they were made kings and priests in heaven??  after there deaths, John wrote this he was still living on the earth, and he uses the same language in the past tense.

Where do you see the word "shall" at verse 6,.

PLEASE......Look at the first six verses (especially Rev 1:5-7) closer, this is the opening PORTION OF THIS  letter written to  seven literal churches existing on the earth at the time this was written, the statement John makes is in the past tense "made us" at this verse ; he includes himself as a king and priest.................what about this?? look......

5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6  And [hath]made uss kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)


John is not in a trance, and he is not seeing any visions, as yet, when he wrote this,.  (I think you assume he is.......) as a matter of fact, he doesn't begin writing about"what he saw" until verse 8, which he reiterates at verse 10, after explaining the setting of the vision, in the opening verses.  

So it is clear it wasn't until he heard the voice of the Lord to write these things at verse 11, that John begins writing.

Now look at the verse, again;

5  and from Jesus Christ the witness faithfull the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. T him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his blood,
6  and made us kings and priests to God and Father his.....
7  Behold He comes with the clouds , and shall see Him every eye, and they which Him pierced and shall wail on account of Him, all the tribes of the earth. Yea, Amen.

Greek-English Interlinear Version

I think it is erroneous to say, that John is herein seeing these things, as he is writing these first seven verses,  there is no question he saw them, but I believe he wrote this as the opening statement to this letter, after he wrote what he saw on the Lords Day while on the isle that was called Patmos, and the strongest point for this argument is the  word us at verse 6,

He includes himself as  being a king and a  priest, in his present state.

We have a high priest, who ministers at the heavenly alter not made with human hands, we are told at Heb  8:1-2.

And we are able minsters of the Gospel of God, Paul even says at 1 Cor 4:8, the Corithians had reigned as kings without us...... while this is not positive proof, the Lord consider His saints, kings and priets, the Apostle, certainly states it clear enought at Rev 1:6, becuase he sure claims it for himself at verse 5.


11   What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Had it not been for the Lords words at verse 11, we may never have had this book to read.


 
They are the souls of men that were slain..who the beasts are is not clear to me, they appear to be men, maybe not.



If you are still speaking of Rev 6:9-11, you "cannot explain how there are two groups of believers", because, they are not, what indelibly links them together with  those of Rev 13:7-10, 14:12 and  20:4, is  the "white linen robes" which are given to them, and the elders words; these all came out of the great tribulation, according to Rev 7:14 and Rev 20:4, they all have white linen robes.  

cont'd..........

   

(I can almost here it already, the next argument will be whether their robes are linen, cotton some other synthetic fabric.)
 
"it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."  Rev 6:11

Note that those who are to be killed, as they [were],  are their fellowservants and brethren,

there is not two groups here, either..

I think you fellows, are letting your imaginations get the best of you....herein.

 

No apologies required..I may not have been clear on these, myself.


Hmmm.  I do believe the seals, the bowls and the trumpets run sequentially, and not all at once.
This is not clear to me.


I do see this, I think I pointed this out, in one of my previous posts.


I disagree.

I do not see, the wrath beginning until  Rev 6, the sixth seal begins the heavenly signs that precede His return, which men on the earth see, and are running around looking for the door to hide from the wrath which is coming, whether it is a day or a series of days is not clear to me, but I am inclined to believe it may be days, the day of the Lord begings with  a literal day when he returns to the world, but the signs could span days, this is not unbelieveable to me..this could be the case depending where the ring side seat is one holds.




I hear you Petro.   We have also spoken about this verse before.   The only answer I can offer here is that God would have taken these given to Christ at that time out of the world because of their faith in Christ, and because they were not of this world...just as we are.  Just as Enoch was. The only difference is, that those prayed for were to continue the work that Jesus was leaving behind.  (Just as he was sent into the world, so he would send them into the world.)  We the Church carry on the work that Jesus started.  Spreading his truth, mercy and Love to the lost.   This could not be done if they were removed.  Does that mean we will never be taken out of the earth, ever?   We know from other scripture that we certainly will be caught up and removed from the earth at some point.  The question is when.  So what was the purpose of Jesus' prayer in John 17?  Not to ever remove believers from planet earth?  I don't think so.   It was to finish the work that Jesus started...preaching the gospel to all nations to the ends of the earth.   So again we arrive at the 49 thousand dollar question.  When will we be changed, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air?
Well, all of those who are assembled at the throne in Rev 7:9-14, and Rev 20:4, are ALL products of the great tribulation, who preached the same word that began with Jesus, this is clear from verses;

Rev 7:14  These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 Rev 20:4  ............... the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God. Just because Rev 6:9-11, doesn't say they were beheaded, it is clear they died for their testimony and the word of God. The clincher for me is that they all indentified as dressed with white robes at Rev 19:8.  This includes all these (Rev 7:14,13:10-15, 20:4...

Is the church clothed in fine white linen, note; the church is referred to as her at verse 8,  below;

Rev 19
7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Clothed in white linen??  They must be robes??  And white at that..........! White linen Robes......

You see, the church here any place??

Paul2 makes the argument, the armies represent different classes of  individuals, some are the church while others are dispensational servants, and not members of the church

Clearly these verses should not be twisted to exclude, from this discussion, these of  Rev 19, being members of the church, refering to them of Rev 7:14.

Know lets look, at;

John 17
18  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.[/color.
19  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This would cover everyone till the church is removed from the earth at the end of the age. Whenever that is.

Pre Tribbers, have to remove the church and the Holy Spirit at (the weak sign of) the signing of the peace agreement, to make the theory,  work.  Unless it is obvious the man of sin, is a great religious leader, who is revealed at this signing, many will miss this sign.

To arbitraily separate, what is obviously the same group of servants and brethern for the sake of trying to prove something is deceptive in my opinion.


So, there you go, It appears it happens in everymans mind according to how he interprets scripture.

One has to allegorize what is not written, and this produces diferent results, of course I include myself, in this, since I am reading the same verses and I have an imagination also..

I say if one can't explain something,using the scriptures only, he ought not to even bring it up, it just muddy's the water, and besides how can one answer someone who says, I just have a feeling, I think or an opinion, maybe it is like this..................I say shore up the positions with Gods Word



Blessings,

Petro.

By the way, allow me to add a piece of the puzzle for the the many crowns issue.

Rev 19:12 is most definitely speaking of Jesus, the many crowns are the result of the crowns being cast at His feet by the twenty four elders.  Rev 4:4-10.

Note: 2 Tim 4:8, James 1:12, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 2:10, Rev 3:11,Rev 14:14,

But notice Rev 1:5

5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Who is John refering to herein ??

He is refering to the faithfull, Jesus was and is nothing to the secular kings of this earth, and won't be until He returns to rule over the nations.


So there is your reason for the "many crowns", these are  clearly Pre Millenial verses at Rev 20:4-6.


Blessings,

Petro

This is the problem Petro.   You cannot look for one verse to explain many of these things, they must be taken as a whole with other scripture rightly dividing the word.
The first seal happens future to Johns Day.  Note the following…
Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
 Rev 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John is in spirit, and seeing future events AFTER those of the previous chapters.   Things that will happen hereafter.
Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

I agree with you that these 24 may be the 24 patriarchs and are not angels.  However, this event is future to that of time of chapter 4.   Were they sitting on thrones wearing crowns during chapters 1-3?  Jesus told John in chapter 4:1 […..] come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

John is seeing future things at 4:1 that have not occurred as of yet.   I know your argument is that John had not died yet, so how can he see himself as one of the 24?   If John was in the spirit, and seeing future events maybe he did see himself and not know it – who knows.   He does see souls under the altar of those that are going to be slain for their testimony.   Those had not died yet either, so I don’t think that makes for a good argument.
I have always puzzled about the four beast that are around the throne.  Paul2 has an interesting theory about that I had never heard before…Maybe when he gets back he can post it again.  In 5:9 they are singing a song of redemption, claiming to have be redeemed by the blood of the lamb.  Angels do not sing such songs.  So who are the 4 beasts?   I am certainly open to hear anyone’s thoughts of this.


Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Seems plain enough to me Petro.  The setting is in heaven before the throne of God where John was taken in the spirit.  He was told to write down what he saw.  John writes that these 24 and 4 beasts are singing a song that they have been redeemed, that the lamb “hast made unto us our God kings and priests AND we SHALL reign on the earth!”
This is what he said he saw!  They are already before the throne with crowns and thrones.  They are not however on earth.  They are also wearing WHITE RAIMENT!
Now to the seals.  Only the lamb was found worthy to open AND release the ensuing
seals.   Why is that?  

Rev 5:12  Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Only the lamb was able to receive all the above due to his sinless sacrifice.   Important to note that the opening of the seals, is also a releasing of what is therein.  I know you will not agree with this, but I definitely view the seals as judgments in sequence, each one getting worse than the previous.   Only Christ is worthy, and has the authority to break and release what is therein, because only can judge those who reject his gift of salvation.  This begins judgment!
Rev 6:1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Again, this event is something that happened hereafter 4:1 (future).   John is still in the spirit, and seeing these seals broken by the lamb who is worthy.   So Jesus has received all power wisdom strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing opens this first seals.   To me, it seems odd to say that Jesus opens the seal, and releases himself as the rider of the white horse.  His redemptive work is finished at this point.   He is now releasing judgments!   If the ensuing horsemen do not convey this interpretation, I don’t know what does.  I clearly see the opening of this seal as a major event, that kicks off the ever increasing judgment on men and earth as only Christ is able to open it.    
This first rider carries a bow, he is riding a white horse, he is given a crown, and only once the seal is broken does he go forth conquering and to conquer.  (don’t forget, things that happen hereafter…Christs redemptive work is finished).  We know from Daniel, that the Antichrist will subdue other kings, he will speak great things against the most high, his weapon of choice will be peace.   Very fitting for a rider carrying a bow, but no arrows…wearing a crown (again described as a king in Daniel).   A key focus will be Israel.
Joh 5:43  I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Clearly he will be accepted by Israel as Messiah.  A strong clue!

He will be boastful, and speak great things against the most high according to Daniel.   He is going to be diverse, and subdue three leaders.   He is going to seek to change the times and laws.   Sounds very similar to someone on a conquest (going forth conquering and to conquer) for world power does it not?    The signing of the peace accord will be a key sign I believe.   And I’m not talking about some little peace agreement.  I think it will be a well publicized event.   I believe there will much talk by the Jews about this individual being accepted as Messiah as well.   These are hardly vague or weak clues.  

I do not view the falling away as the rapture.   I view it as a departure from truth, and Godliness.   I think we are already beginning to see this today.   A departure from Godly principles in various church organizations, as well as individuals.

continued...

I have already addressed some of this above.  John wrote the whole thing Petro.  
He was instructed to write what he had already seen also.  I know he had greeting in the letter.

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

        I know he is not in the spirit yet.    But never the less, he does see the 24 elders and 4 beasts in chapter 4 (future) who are already sitting on thrones wearing crowns.  We are told by John, that the chapter 4 event happens hereafter.   FUTURE!   What I was saying in my previous post, is that before the first horseman rides out, these individuals are seen in heaven and they are heard saying “we are made kings and priest” before the first seal had even been broken.

How do these become priest and kings before the throne of God, if they are not resurrected to the throne of God in order to take their thrones and crowns?   All happening before the first seal of judgment is broken!


Where does it say they are souls?   They have been redeemed by the blood, are sitting on their thrones wearing their crowns as if they have already been to the bema seat of Christ.   When did they receive their crowns?  They are also dressed in white linen!


I suspect that every believer ever entering heaven will have a white rob.   The point is, those on thrones in chapter 4 ARE wearing white robes, are observing, are singing and witness the breaking of the first seal as well as the rest….including the 5th where souls of those slain for the word of God.   Again….the 24 elders, the 4 beasts, John in the spirit, sees all this from heavens perspective.   How do you explain these 24 elders, which appear to be patriarchs (men) in heaven witnessing souls of those slain on earth due to judgment seals being broken by Christ?   Somebody from earth is already in heaven at that point.  Did they get by means of a rapture?  We have scripture that describes such an event.  Where do  you see scripture that says they are souls?  Show me a verse.   Those that are slain are GIVEN robes at that time.  John is in heaven with others described as wearing robes sitting on thrones, wearing crowns, watching the handing out of Robes to the slain.   I’m not making this stuff up here.  This is what John says he saw!



Petro,  there are people in the earth right now, that have yet to receive Christ.  Those who would receive Christ will become brothers and fellowservants will they not?   Whether that were to happen before or after a rapture event makes no difference.   They receive salvation due accepting Christ redemptive work on cross.   There is no question that this will take place during that terrible time.   The problem here is, you have individuals in heaven already wearing white robes, who all witness the breaking of the 5th seal which reveals martyrs who are then given their white robes.  Seperate groups with white robes.  One group in heaven, along with John in the spirit, and one group under the alter who were slain for their testimony.


This is why you are having difficulties explaining the 4 horsemen.   The first seal is the beginning of judgment, broken by the only one who was found worthy to pass judgment on man and earth.   To fit all the events described throughout Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel and so forth into one day is very much a stretch.   There are specific wars that take place, famines that spread, pestilences that spread.   The judgments gradually get worse and worse.   Daniel and Revelation give specific days and months as time frames.   Not hours in a single day.

A world leader bent on conquest and speaking loud boastful things against the most high, will hardly be a weak sign.   You seem to be stuck on the fact that every mention of a white robe must be the bride.  What about the 24 elders seen wearing white before the first seal is broken?  Can’t have it both ways!


You are welcome to your interpretation Petro.  I have no trouble seeing these things as they are written.   I see the main sticking point for you as how the church is removed, and then believers are killed for their testimony on earth, and, white robes grouping everyone together in one place or the other, where as I see the Church removed, and milli0ns coming to Christ because of the judgments being poured out on them.   The way you are explaining these verses, a rapture could not take place until the very end of Revelation where Christ is seen returning to earth in chapter 19, and omit the promise of escaping wrath, going to the fathers house where many mansions are, the blessed promise for the living (not the martyred),  why the 2 witnesses are doing the work that is suppose to be the churches, how the gates of hell are not only standing up, but falling outward to overcome the saints on earth.   Then you say you believe in a pre-wrath view, which would have to take place before chapter 6.    Now you tell me which version makes better sense and includes all the above.


Grace and Peace!

I have no idea where you addressed this, but if you take his salutation these first 8 verses, and include them in his visions while in a trance I can see, how you begin wondering off on the tangent as you do.

Of course once you do that, nothing else, will make sense from the perspective you see things, since you are already off the mark..

So, aside from the defining of the called  elect chosen saints, and the woman of Rev 12, this is probably the biggest hurdle, you have,  for trying to figure this one out.


I am not sure, if you are trying to connect this as your logical explanation for stating the first 7 verses are all a part of John's visions and so on, but it is clear to me, it is not.  

We are speaking specifically at this point, of Rev 1, and the verses that  precede the letter to the seven churches are Johns opening salutation which is not part of any vision, the instructions to write the following down to the 7 churches is given at verse 11.


If you are speaking of the first 7 verses I agree with you,  if you are speaking of verse 8 and onward,  then I would  say he is simply was writting the things he had  heard ( words at vs 9) the Lord said, and verse 10, gives the churches the setting of the writing of this letter.


You don't know that?

After the resurrection of Jesus, all who die in Him, go to be with Him, this explains why they are in heaven clothed in robes, they are the spirits of men who had been declared righteous, proof of this is there white robes, no one enters heaven clothed in ther own rags of righteousness (Phil 3:8-9)

Look this not a mystery, when Stephen was before the sanhedrin, he looked "and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God," (Acts 7:55), this was in heaven according to Stephen, where Jesus is and where all spirits who die in Christ go to be unpon there deaths, (2 Cor 5:6-8, Eccl 12:7)

Zecariah 3:1-4, writes about this very thing concerning Joshua a high priest, who stood before The Angel of the Lord, and satan at His right hand, contending with The Angel of God (Jesus) for Joshua, note what Jesus said to satan;

2  The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3  Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4  And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

No doubt satan claims the bodies of all who die, but Jesus pleads His peoples case at the throne of Grace, the very words Jesus said "The Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee" to satan, makes one understand that God, was present presently.

The same thing occured when satan contended for the body of Moses, Gods annointed,  who had sinned against God in anger.

 Jude says at 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Where did this occur in the presence of God at the Throne of Grace, where Jesus defends His people day and night against the accusations of the accuser "which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12:10)

We have an advocate that not only pleads our case when we sin, but also claims us, upon our death at the same throne. This is what our High Priest does presently and will continue doing until satan is cast out of heaven from the presence of God (Heb 8:1-2, Rev 12:1-17)

So I don't see what the problem is, they were there at the throne clothed in white robes, and there were others, this doesn't prove a Pre Trib raptur,e at all.
 
How does their saying they "are made kings and priests" at chapter 4, tie in with 1:6, it is clear to me, at  verse 6, of Rev 1 that Johns salutation, that he is,  the one making this statement;
6  And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; .................

As I pointed out, he includes himself, and claims it, herein..??


2d Tim,  Look......If you read Rev 4, there is nothing said about them becoming kings and priests, at all, you have got to quit assuming things, otherwise, we will never get anyplace, all John says is;

Rev 4
2   ...................and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3  And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, an d worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Where does it say they sat on thrones?:?

As I pointed out previously Jesus did promise the Apostles that they would reign in His kingdom (perhaps I didn't point this out clear enough for you in my previous post) with Him, and I was not able to tie, something as definitive for the OT patriarchs, but certainly it appears as thou they play a prominent role at the New Jerusalem.

What is clear at Lk 22; Jesus promises those who were at the passover feast and had been with Him, that they would reign in His kingdom.

28  Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.  
29  And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I fail to see that the 24 elders are sitting on thrones, Rev 4:4, does not say this at all; they are NOT sitting on thrones at all. Here is what it says;

4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

They are sitting , this I will agree with you, but it does not say they were thrones, on which they sat.........

At Luke 22:30, it does say they will "sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel", but at Rev 4:4 this is not evident, yet!...................neither is it supported from the language used.

You can see, that from this point on, everything you say, is based on an assumption, they are sitting on thrones.

Contd....................

In my opinin You read to much into this verse.  

Sometimes people want to see, what isn't there, such is the case here.  And, There is nothing said about them eating and drinking either.

There is a key verse which disputes the idea that the throne of Rev 4:4, is NOT the kingdom they are to reign at,  the Apostles were to reign on earth, upon His return,  note:

At the same passage; Jesus at the passover also said to the Apostles;

Lk 22
14  And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15  And he said unto them,  With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16  For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.  
17  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Note verse 18 carefully, it does not disagree with verse 16; it ends by stating "until the kingdom of God shall come."

This is understood to be future tense, and where is it to come??, to the earth, because the kingdom of God, was already in heaven,


Now allow me to point you to a verse which sets the order of this coming kingdom;

1 Cor 15
22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25  For he must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet.
26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Verses 24 and 25, are speaking of God the Father reigning, until He hath put all enemies under His feet.

Under Jesus feet, then Jesus comes and subdues all things, conquering the last enemy death...and HE when He has subdued all things will himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.


I have already pointed out they are not sitting on thrones, Rev 4:4, does not support this at ALL.


You mean those sitting around the throne at Rev 4, ARE wearing white ............



I don't understand what your driving at, the Apostles include John, He says nothing about seeing himself herein, he simply wrote what he saw. None of the 24 elders are excitedly asking questions, about these souls,  they know, where these came from, we are the ones speculating trying to figure this out.

All it says at the fifth seal, is "were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:", this to me could include all the OT and NT saints at Heb 11, recognizing that there are others not even not listed, therein.  They are refered to as saints..Psa 27:38, 50:5, 116:15.

Psa 132
9  Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
16  I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

David was not of the tribe of Levi, yet, he entered into the Holy Place and took bread for His men,  on a Sabbath while running from King Saul, the only reason why he could have done it, without being judged of God, was because He was a priest, unto God under the order of Melchisedek of whom is Jesus our High Priest.


   
And besides it stand sot reason that,  if the four and twenty elders were in heaven at the throne (during the entire process), while these souls were being received into heaven coming out of the great tribulation, it would not be a mystery to them, they would all know where they came from, even the angels.  The breaking of the seal appears to be linked with time, the seal in heaven is broken but yet a multitude is seeing by John, this tells me, the breaking of the seal is like viewing one frame in a film, the previous frame where the fourth seal  was broken would be many back, if these were translated into days, it would counted in years, perhaps.  
 

Who are talking about??  

The twelve apostles, if they make up 12 of the elders,
"Souls" (Rev 6:9)  #5590  the immortal souls, or the spirit

They were slaying on the earth, their souls ascended into heaven, if the bema seat is experienced upon entering heaven, (of which I am not altogether NOT sold on this theory)  then, this would explain your thought that, what John saw,  was men's souls in glorified bodies, I am not convinced this is what he saw, he doesn't  give any indictation they were not souls, (John himself was in the spirit, they were spirit, and thus the vision) neither does he say, they have glorified bodies  the case for the souls /spirits is much stronger, since we know men who die in Christ do not enter heaven in anything but a soul/spirit (see Eccl 12:7)


I already did, Rev 20:4, you cannot deny, ALL these came out of the great tribulation, and these are the one and same of those at Rev 13:7-10, 14:12, 7:14, (included among them are those at Rev 20:4, are those of Rev 6:9) only if one is blind he cannot see that all these are numbered with those of Rev 20:4, and they are ALL eternal souls/spirits, is what John seeing.

continued...................

You keep assuming they are sitting on thrones, it only shows, how greatly you rely on this one point, to make your theory work.

The problem as I see it, is that somehow or other, just because John wasn't there to see, when or how these elders received  their robes and crowns, somehow you see  this multitude spoken of at Rev 20:4, as not being part of the church, and arbitrarily exclude those who are church saints, I tell you again, the souls of those at Rev 6:9 were told to
"wait a little season,, until their fellowservants and brethern, should be killed, just as they were, should be fulfilled."

THIS IS WHAT INDELIBLY LINKS THESE OF  REV 6:9 TO ALL OF THE OTHERS...there is no difference between them, they were referred to as saints on the earth at Rev 13:7-10, Rev 14:12.


Ansolutely,.......................That will make them called chosen elect saints, won't it??

If so, are they members of the church, the body of Christ??


You are confused...

There are the 24 elders, and four beasts, plus.............the souls of those under the alter, (who are told to wait, wait for what?, for the brethern to be killed, just as they were)
and then John sees them all standing at Rev 7:14, and are given "white robes just as the first group was. I can almost visialize them all, as one group, no difference between them at all.

As I explained before the white robes represent the righteousness of the saints (Rev 19:8), and whether you accept this or not, it matters little, the robes also are the wedding garments.

If there is any passage of scripture which might support a separate body of believers and those envited to the wedding feast it might be  found at Mat 22:1-14, however I would not to be to quick to run and make assumptions, because the biggest problem we will encounter with that notion is what

Ephesians 2:15 says;,

"to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;" this is clearly speaking of the Body of Christ.



I don't buy that explanation, if your saying that the day of warth begins at the first seal, you have to reconcile, 1 Th 4:15-17,  2 Th 2:3,  to this theory and base it on  scriptures and thus far you and Paul2 have failed to do so.

You haven't even defined who the saints are  and whether they are the church or not, ALL NT saints are the church for sure, as I see it, if you ever get around to considering this, you might want to look at Dan 7:23, this may illuminate this matter, somewhat for you.



I only agree with half of your statement as a sign which would reveal the man of sin;

speaking loud boastful things against the most high

Because this is the only unmistakable sign, preceded by a world wide apostasy which would reveal him, according to 2 Th 2:3, and it is clear at 2 Th 2:3, that, the day of Christ, cannot come unless these two signs occur first, in order.  The apsotasy  first followed by the revelation of the son of perdition.

You got it backwards, Paul2, has no apsotasy at all, in his theory.

2 Th 2
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (that day is the day mentioned at vs 2), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.



cont'd...................

Jesus said;

Mat 12
 25  For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

These are not risen souls/spirits yet What makes you think they are??.
Look at Rev 20:, it begings with John saying;  
1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having a key .................................... this vision is on the earth, then note;
4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

he first resurrection are those who live and reign with Christ, this includes all those he brings with Himself at His appearing.

What about it??, everyone that is saved has been invited to a wedding feast, and according to Jesus at His parable they all received a wedding garment, it is not unreasonably to understand from the account of  Mat 22, that the garment was handed out as the wedding guest arrive, and remember the white robes are the righteousness of the saints :, there is nothing which supports that if they didn't posses robes, they would be walking around as naked bodies.

I don't lose sleep, over this, when Jesus died the graves were opened Mat 27:52-53 and many siants arose,the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many..whether they arose into the heavens We do not know.


Yes you do, since you, that is why you and Paul2 add words, to what is written..........you fill in where you are not sure..You may not see this but it is true. This is why it seems as thou your theory is all figured out.


No,  you don't  "how the church is removed" is not the problem with me; but when the church is removed is, I don't agree with your theory, necessarily, and no one has made the case here yet, that it is removed at the beginning of the tribulation....the more we  keep posting the less evident it is to me, what I see, is a lot of specualting going on..on your part..


 
That is nonsense, I already stated, when I believed the wrath begins, you may not have read my post, but it is nowhere  near Rev 19.
And besides the promise is, that WE are  to be kept from the hour of  temptation, not "escape" wrath.  Escaping and being kept from it are not exactly the same thing.
Lk21:35-36, cannot be split and separated, verse 36 is to be seeing in the light of verse 35, the snare that comes unawares, is that deception which cause the apostasia and comes on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth, who have not received the love of the truth, then comes the Day of the Lords return.


It is clear to me, You have no idea what the pre wrath view entails, if what you are explaining is the wrath of God, then the pre wrath view, sees the church being raptured prior to it.
Somehow you confuse, tribulation with wrath, there is no wrath until the vials begin being poured out at Rev 16, however, it is clear to me this could coincide with the first trump, or the seventh seal. The fifth and sixth seals I see as signs of His impending return, Jesus spoke of this time, when He said;    

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
So from the time of the signs to the begining of His wrath, there is a lull in the world setting while God seals the 144,000, and other things happen. the rest of  seals are executed.
The hour of testing that comes upon the whole world, to test them that dwell upon it (Rev 3:10), is not wrath, but deception, brought on by the man of sin, this is the great sign the precedes the revelation of the son of perdition. NASB, uses the word testing in place of temptation, Both signs are very important, since they precede His return.

The key verse you use as a proof text for a Pre Trib rapture, is both of these Rev 3:10, and 1 Th 5:9

1 Th 5
9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Unfortunately one speaks of  testing/trials, while the other speaks of wrath.  There is quite a difference between these words and their meanings, from this confusing interpretation, an huge elaborate doctrine has been built. on which many have hung there hope, instead of doing the work we have been called to do,  they,  just count the days.  This is not biblical...
Wrath is of God, deception is from the evil one, the hour of temptation is thre same as the hour of trials or deception, that will come upon the whole world.
2 Th 2                                                                                                                                                  10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is the great deception.


Blessings,  
Petro

One question here. Does it not say that everyman is tempted in verse 14?   This is not all inclusive to only those living at the time events in Revelation happens Petro.   Revelation is clearly a special time of temptation that is going to come upon the world.   While the principle still applies, you are forcing this passage into that time frame, limiting it to Saints  of Revelation.


Again, we cannot lose sight of the keys for interpreting Revelation.  These Churches are addressed BEFORE what takes place hereafter.  It is not clear to me that they are present later on as they are never mentioned again during the judgments.


This particular temptation is obviously what is about to happen hereafter, and is particular as it has an hour or a time.  Every man is tempted throughout life when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed according to the passage in James.  This would explain why so many will refuse to repent during the coming events, perhaps being lead astray by the antichrist.  Either way, the church is promised to be kept from the hour due to their patience, which is coming upon all the world.  All without any mention of wrath.

Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


Again you are forcing this temptation into the time frame limited to Revelation.  Every man that has ever lived has to endure tempation throughout life as a believer.  So all those men will also receive a crown will they not?  You are saying it like, only those who endure that particular hour of temptation coming in Revelation are the only ones who will receive a crown.   I don't see this at all.


Why is there an exception?  You have been eager to point out presumptions on my part, and yet you yourself seem to make pressumptions there is an exception with those 24 elders wearing crowns.  Crowns are given out at the appearing of Christ if we go by scripture.   To me it stands to reason that those 24 had witnessed an appearing of Christ prior to being seen by John in the spirit at chapter 4:4.   No mention of thronos, lawn chairs, or wrath.  They are seen by John wearing gifts that is said by scripture to be handed out at the appearing of Christ.   This can only suggest one thing my friend.  Thessalonians 4:16 has likely taken place before Rev 4:4, otherwise, how do we explain how John describes them?


Trust me, I feel your frustration.  I feel the same way about a post trib debate.   God gave us a glimpse of what is going to take place at the end through Johns writing.  Things which our worldly minds have trouble with in regards to visions of heaven.   There is no question in my mind that these things will be debated until they happen.   I am faithful that God has it under control and knows what is best for his Church.  While I don't claim to have all the answers regarding a pre-trib view, I still see it agreeing more with scripture than other timings.   I could be wrong, but I cling to my faith, and my God who is not wrong.  He will see me through whatever transpires.  This much I know for certain!

Grace and Peace!

Only you can see what you see, I don't see it.

If 12 of these are the Apostles souls in the presence of God, they are members of the Body of Christ, that is clear to me.






Lets face it you simply will not recant, that these are not sitting on thrones, your wasting your breath, from here on.

Time for me, to ignore your argument. Lets move on.





Blessings, Petro

How many times do I have to say this friend.   The 24 elders are alive redeemed men wearing crowns and white robes.  John never describes them as souls, as he does those souls under the alter.   They have crowns, and as we know, crowns are given at the appearing of the Lord.   RAPTURE!

Chapter 19
Rev 19:1  And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2  For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:4  And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5  And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6  And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

How many references do you need of people living in heaven in this chapter before you will actually believe it?  Theres so many here its not even funny.

1. A great voice of much people....IN HEAVEN!
2. 24 Elders and the four beast...all of which call themselves redeemed.
3. The wife, making herself ready, wearing white!
4.  A fellow servant that John fell down to worship who says, he is a fellow bretheren of the testimony of Jesus
5.  The armies of heaven wearing white linen white and clean.


I could build a case for pre-trib rapture on this chapter alone!


I don't know what to say anymore Petro.  When do souls receive crowns?  Are they received at death, or are they received at Christs appearing?


The seats or thronos as they are called in the original greek is non relevant to a pre-trib case as I have shown.  Call them whatever you want....it matters not to what I am showing here.    I can't stop you from ignoring me, but don't ignore scripture because it disagrees with your theories.  Neither one of us get any brownie points for winning debates or anything here.   The whole point is to seek truth.  We can disagree!  I have no problem with that.   I am not the only one here that sees a pre-trib rapture.   Its not like I'm a lone pistol trying to pervert scripture.   Pre-trib Rapture makes sense, it agrees with enormous scripture.   I have yet to hear anyone else here make a case (with the exception of Joel) for any other view.   Everyone seems to take pot shots at pre-trib views and ignore when it stands up to scrutiney.

I truely do love you guys!  Its my prayer that God will open all of our hearts and eyes to the truths in his word regarding this.

Grace and Peace be with you!

     I use Luke verse 36 itself!

Luke 21:36: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy  to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

    "All these things that SHALL COME TO PASS".


    I offered a possible interpretation, something to consider. I was giving the interpretation of Dr. J. Vernon McGee of the "Thru the Bible" radio program. Apparently you would not accept anything he has ever said at face value either, for I was quoting him.


     The only time gap I mentioned was in Isaiah 61:2 between the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengence.

                                                             Paul2

Revelation 5:8: "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

    The 24 elders are acting as priests in the above verse. The prayers of Tribulation Saints are now going through the 24 elders acting as priests.

    The picture becomes more and more clear. Petro doesn't like what he sees but that doesn't change anything.

    I'm amazed at how people will attack an interpretation which is being presented, but fail to offer an alternative interpretation with as much detail as the interpretation they attack.

    What do we know about Petro's interpretation? Not much! Why? I wish I knew!

    The effect of the 6th vial destroys Petro's interpretation. He states that the Wrath of God is in the 7 vials. He states that the Wrath begins at the Second Coming. Problem is that the 6th vial makes the second Coming possible. The kings and armies of the east must have the way prepared for them by the 6th vial. The Euphrates river must dry up to allow the kings of the east to cross over it to Jerusalem. Why don't they just use a bridge? Because an army of 200 million is going to cross the river, talk about a bottleneck traffic jam!

    Until the worlds armies are gathered at Armeggedon Christ will not return to the earth. The 6th vial makes it possible for the armies of the world to be gathered. This means the effect of the 6th vial must take effect before the Second Coming. This means the Wrath of God is being poured out before the Second Coming. Petro can not accept this fact because his interpretation does not allow the wrath of God to occur before the Second Coming. Talk about putting the cart before the horse!

    Christ can not return to the earth until the effect of the 6th vial has prepared the way for the kings of the east and all the armies of the world are gathered to Israel around Jerusalem for the battle of Armeggedon. For Petro's theory to work, the Church must be Raptured before the effects of the 7 vials take place, but Petro believes the Church will be raptured the same day as the Second Coming so the effects of the vials must take effect the same day as the Rapture and second Coming.

    Seems the scenario would go like this:

    The Church is Raptured, moments later the effect of the 7 vials are poured out on the earth. The Euphrates dries up, and Kings and armies of the east race across the Middle east to arrive in Jerusalem within 24 hours. an army of 200 Million
cross the middle east in a single day and are in formation around Jerusalem within 24 hours of the Rapture. The Second Coming of Christ occurs within 24 hours of the Rapture.

   That is not a possibility! Theres no way the effect of the 6th vial and Second Coming of Christ can occur on the same day. The 6th vial prepares the way, that is to say makes it possible for the kings of the east to cross the dried up Euphrates. It is not possible to move a 200 million man army from China to Jerusalem in one 24 hour day! The Wrath of God must begin prior to the day of the Second Coming.

   Only when you place the Rapture and the Second Coming on the same day, you must ignore the obvious. The theory falls apart. You paint yourself into a corner when you make the Rapture and Second Coming the same day and place the beginning of the wrath of God that same day. Something is wrong. The wrath cannot begin on the day of the Second Coming. To try to fit all the effects of the 7 vials into one single day is not possible.

    Seeing Petro has made it his mission to attack the Pre-Trib. Rapture interpretation I will begin to attack the Pre-wrath interpretation. I believe I have addressed a major flaw of the pre-wrath interpretation. The Rapture and Second Coming and the 7 vials of wrath cannot all occur on the same single day. If anyone thinks they can please explain it to me.

     I would like to see the 7 vials of the Wrath of God layed out in sequence with the Rapture and the Second Coming. The Rapture must come before the effects of the 7 vials which are the wrath of God. Therefore the Rapture must take place and then the 7 vials poured out upon the earth. When does the Second Coming occur? Within 24 hours of the Rapture? Am I to understand that the wrath of God occurs within a single 24 hour period?

    When the 7 vials are poured out Scripture mentions that nobody repented. When would they have had time to repent if plague after plague came upon them in a single day?


                                                       Paul2

Paul2

You cannot analyze anything, unless first you establish facts, as the basis for building an anylitical foundation.

What are you going to analyze, anything I say, with, your own hypothetical presuppositions??

I see no reason to continue, because both you and 2d Tim, have taken scripture and twisted words to the point of invalidating established facts.

Apostasia, is the same word used, to define APOTASY, and it is,................ exactly that, ..............................it is not "the RAPTURE".

You have entrenched yourself, into your own world of words which mean different things to you, so nothing you explain from that point on, will carry any weight, since, as I see, it you and I are on different wave lengths, and will never agree, you have the rapture occuring before the signs, which announce the return of Christ, these are very significant to the believer.

The prophet Jude, writes of these things;

3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Note how we are to conduct ourself during this time of apostasy;

20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

We are called to continue on in the faith, building each other up, having compassion and making a difference even pulling some from the verge of the precipes, who find themselves ready to fall into the flames of the apostasy,
these we are to save with strong, resolute warnings, and instruction,s hating even their garments defiled by the flesh.

I ask how does focusing on a rapture allow us to do this, if we knew when the Lord will return and it is in troublesome times, we would not even care about others, but we would tend to ourselves, this is why the Lord says , "no man knoweth the time neither the hour, not even the angels in heaven, but my Father"



Continuing with Jude..................,and the doom of the apostates as foretold by Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam.  It is a prophecy that is found only in Jude's epistle. Some believe it is taken by the Book of Enoch, but there is no evidence that that spurious book even existed in the time of Jude.

While we do not know , how Jude learned of this ancient prophecy, a simple and plausible explanation is that the Holy Spirit revealed the words to him, just as He revealed and guided all that is written in the other epistles.

Nevetheless, it is a major sign not for unbelievers but, for believers, remember the scripture are written for our edification, firstly, that we might be conforted and stand assured of these things, that will come to pass.

The apostasy, followed by the revelation of the Man of Sin, followed by the appearing of our Saviour.

In your scenario, you have the rapture first, followed by the revelation of the Son of Perdition, and then the appearing of the Lord at the mid tribulation, yet you call yourself a Pre Trib'st, ..................

When does the apostasy occur??


Or, is there one in your theory??

It is bad enough, the language of Revelation is such that, one has a dificult time, trying to tie all the lose ends together without people adding to what is written, for the sake of proving a point.

On the otherhand, it does not help when the third party (2d Tim,) insists that the 24 elders are ressurected men, just because they are wearing crowns an seated around the throne of God, in John's vision, if they are resurrected, then ALL who sleep in Christ, must also be resurrected, yet it is obvious not all are, since there are souls of some who are not, evidenced by Rev 4:4.  

But in the scenario of the rapture according to 1 Th 4:16,  "the dead in Christ shall rise first:"  any NT Saint who dies in Christ, whether it be during the tribulation or before the tribulation, sleeps in Christ.  There is no scripture given which contradicts this at all, yet you and 2d Tim, separate them.

How can you do this??  

Only because you take liberties with the Word of God, thats why.............


In trying to come to some understanding of these things I even got caught up in your theory hrying to expalin, who these elders,are, when it is clear we can only surmise, and assume.

The fact is, we cannot know with certainty who the 24 elders are.

We can speculate that they are understood to be as angelic beings, as the redeemed people of both the OT and NT, ans as NT Saints only.  If we assume this to be so, then we can begin building  and expanding a theory, as has happened here, causing 2d Tim, to be swept away, by claiming with certainty they are redeemed men, sitting on thrones, which extended further, would make them as judges judging in the heavenlies..............and on and on  we can go.....

This is why, I do not see, any reason to continue, we are already, heading out into left field with this, because we keep heaping theory upon theory, and tying them together with presumptions and speculations, we have already missed the mark as I see it.

So why waste time, going nowhere??


Blessings,
Petro

   Petro,

   I wasn't going "nowhere", I am beginning to bring to light the Wrath of God. It is impossible for the wrath of God to place in the time frame you have allowed for it to be placed.

   You have never directly answered my questions of when the effects of the 7 vials take effect on earth according to your interpretation so I must try to figure out where you place the wrath by the little information you have provided.

   It appears you have the Rapture of the Church taking place the same day as the Second Coming. This would mean that the wrath of God takes place during that same day. That is not possible but thats what it seems you believe will happen.

   Forget my interpretation, I want to focus on your interpretation. You have been attacking the Pre-Tribulation interpretation for months. The thread you decided to do your attacking on is my thread. For months you have tried to disprove the Pre-Tribulation Rapture interpretation which we have all allowed you to do. I've indulged you in your attempt to discredit the Pre-Tribulation interpretation without ever trying to stop you. I've been watching to see how you interpret things carefully. You never get into details of your Pre-Wrath theory so it took time to figure out just what you believe. I've now seen enough of your theory to spot flaws which I now want to address.
 
    I've put up with your attacks on my interpretation on my thread for months. I know you don't understand the way I present things and why. I'm now attempting to show you why. Your theory does not hold up when all Scripture is used on your theory.

    You keep saying that we've built a doctrine around a few verses of Scripture, you are wrong, the doctrine is built around using ALL the Scriptures. You don't believe that so the easy way to show you is to disprove your theory. Your theory has serious flaws which you never address. If you won't address them then I will, with you or without you. I have allowed you to constantly attack the Pre-Tribulation interpretation and now I feel that I have earned the right to go on the offensive against the Pre-Wrath position you hold.

   Perhaps when it is discovered that the Pre-Wrath interpretation has unresolvable conflicts which can not be overcome the Pre-Tribulation interpretation will begin to make some sense to you or others who believe as you do.

   The Pre-Wrath interpretation that I've been able to piece together from your limited details provide enough information to make the case that the interpretation has serious flaws that can not be reconciled. Over and over I've asked for you to put into perspective When the Wrath of God begins, when the effect of the 7 vials take effect on earth in relation to the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming. You haven't answered me. Thats your choice not to answer and my choice is to make the case against the Pre-Wrath interpretation being possible. The biggest mistake of your interpretation is having the Rapture of the Church occur the same day as the Second Coming which is impossible. It is impossible because you must fit the wrath of God into a single day. The Wrath can not begin until the Church is Raptured, which is a fact you agree with. Christ returns at the end of Daniel's 70th week and ends the 42 month reign of the Beast. Somehow you must fit the whole wrath of God into one single day which is impossible.

    I've given you time to present your interpretation on these things but you have chosen to continue your attack of the Pre-Tribulation interpretation rather than to shed light on your interpretation. I'll shed some light on the flaws I've seen with your interpretation. I've earned that right by indulging your attacks on my interpretation. It doesn't matter if you want to ignore this thread from now on or not, I'm going on the offensive now. Anyone who reads back through the posts can see that you have been doing the attacking and 2nd Timothy, Tom and myself have indulged you and tried to answer your numerous questions. Bottom line is your convinced we are wrong, well bottom line is I'm convinced you are wrong and I'm going to attempt to prove that you are wrong.

    Forget my interpretation which you constantly argue against. I'm not going to use my interpretation, I'm going to show the flaws contained within your Pre-Wrath interpretation. The Pre-wrath interpretation has flaws contained within the Pre-Wrath interpretation itself. It will take a little time to lay out all the evidence but I'm making it my mission. Perhaps when you see that your own interpretation is destroyed by Scripture you will be more willing to consider an alternative interpretation. Now I will have some fun, as I've said before, its much easier to attack an interpretation than to present one. I look forward to the challenge of disproving the Pre-Wrath interpretation.

   Petro, its up to you whether you want to defend your interpretation or not, it doesn't matter to me either way. I'm going to analize the flaws I've seen anyway for the benefit of those who read these posts. After months of defending my interpretation on my thread I feel I have been more than patient and now I wish to go on the offensive, which I am now beginning to do.

   No hard feelings on my part towards you but I'm tried of being on defense, sometimes the best defense is a strong offense.

                                                     Paul2 8)

   

I see nothing wrong with a passionate disscussion guys.   But lets try to keep this from becomming a personal grudge match here.   I understand that we may differ in our understanding of Christs return, but I do not wish to get into hurling personal insults at one another (I'm not accusing anyone of this either; just worried thats where we are headed).   We CAN do this in love even if we heatedly dissagree can we not?  I find a lot of this aggrivating too, but I have no desire to form ill feelings toward any of my bretheren because we cannot agree on a very difficult study.   Be passionate, even disagree if need be, but do it all in Love, lest hatred and pride creep into our hearts.   I fear this more than I fear being wrong about rapture timing.

Grace and Peace!

    Problems I see with the Pre-Wrath Rapture Part 1

    First let me start with this: From Petro's interpretation  the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church takes place on the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth. From what I've read of Petro's posts he believes the Rapture occurs the very same day as the Second Coming. Petro, if I am getting this wrong please tell me because this is what I believe you have said.

    If the Rapture of the Church were to take place the same day as the Second Coming I see problems which I will address.

   If the Rapture of the Church takes place on the day of the Second Coming of Christ to the earth then the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th week on earth. If that is the case then the Church has also experienced the Great Tribulation on earth, the reign of the Antichrist and also the mark of the Beast which is very important to keep in mind. If this is the case, that the Church has been on earth for Daniel's 70th week and experienced the Mark of the Beast it can be concluded that all who are to be Raptured refused the mark of the Beast. This would leave only those who are eternally lost with the mark of the Beast left on earth at the Rapture. The Wrath of God will be poured out after the Rapture of the Church on a Christ rejecting world.

    If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming then the Wrath of God would be poured out in a single day (I'll deal with this later indepth). After the wrath of God is poured out upon the Christ rejecting world Jesus Christ will come to the earth to establish His kingdom. By placing the Rapture of the Church on the same day as the Second Coming it would stand to reason that all the Saved would be Raptured and all the lost would remain on the earth for the wrath of God. Later in the day Christ would visibly return to the earth and conclude Daniel's 70th week. The prophecy given in Zechariah 14 will take place when the Lord returns to earth to touch down on the mount of Olives. The only people left on the earth  should be those who received the mark of the beast and all those who were lost at the time of the Rapture hours before. We learn that those who experience the Wrath of God do not repent, therefore we can conclude that those upon the earth at the time of the second Coming of Christ to the earth are all lost or they would have been Raptured hours earlier if both events happen on the same day.

    Considering the possiblity of the above scenario the conclusion I see would be that all the saved would have been Raptured and the lost would remain on earth for the wrath of God. People do not repent during the Wrath of the 7 vials, so the only people on earth at the time of the Second Coming would be those who received the mark of the beast and the lost. All those who are saved, the living and the dead would be resurrected at the Rapture according to this scenario.

  Here comes the first problem I see. If all those who are saved are Raptured the same day as the second Coming then all the saved should have immortal bodies at that point.

   Now lets look at a few verses of Scripture:

Revelation 20:7: "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
   8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
   9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

    From the above verses of Scripture we see that the nations of the earth will be tested again by Satan leading a rebellion and the nations will be gathered again to attack Jerusalem at the end of the millenium.

    These who are tested again by Satan's rebellion can not be resurrected Saints. These who are tested are still mortal and still able and willing to rebel against God. Obviously these who are tested can fail the test and be sent to the lake of fire. They obviously were not Raptured but remained alive until the Second Coming and entered the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. How is this possible if the rapture of the Church took place hours before the Second Coming? Remember that during the 7 vials of the wrath of God Scripture states that nobody repented. How did natural men enter the millenium in unresurrected bodies?

   This does not make sense. If the Rapture of the Church occurs the same day as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth and nobody repented during the 7 vials all who remained on earth should have been the lost who denied Christ and accepted the mark of the beast. There should be nobody left to survive and enter the millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. How can there be people who will be tested by Satan after the 1000 years of the millenium have ended when Satan is released to seduce the nations one more final time? There can't be!

    The Rapture of the Church must occur before the Second Coming and the wrath of God to allow people time to repent and come to faith in Christ and enter the millenium alive in natural unresurrected bodies.

   I'll be adding on to these points in my next posts. I just getting started.

Isaiah 65:19: "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

  The above verses are refering to the millenium. These spoken of above were not Raptured resurrected Saints. These are the survivors and the children of survivors of the Great Tribulation that entered the millenium in natural bodies but have had the curse of sin removed from them but death is still a possibility. These spoken of are not immortal yet. These are the survivors of the Great Tribulation that will be tested by Satan at the end of the millenium.[/color]

                                                            Paul2 8)




   

   On my last post I started to explain that during the Millenium there will be people who will remain in natural bodies that can die and also be tested by Satan when he is released from his prison. Those who choose to follow Satan in his final rebellion will be cast into the lake of fire with him after the Great White Throne Judgement.

   Anyone who was Raptured will receive their immortal body, they can not be tested by Satan or ever fall from Grace.

1 Thessalonians 4:16: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
   17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."[/color]

   The above verses make it clear that those who are Raptured will be with the Lord forever with no chance of losing Salvation. They will become immortal at the Rapture.

    In the verse below we will see the fate of the Martyred Tribulation period Saints.

Revelation 20:4: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
   5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
   6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

   The martyred Tribulation period Saints will be Resurrected and reign with Christ for the 1000 year Millenium, the Second Death has no power over them because they have been Resurrected and can not be tested by Satan and fall.

    Tribulation period Saints who survive the Great Tribulation will enter the Millenium as unresurrected mankind, and will be tested by Satan and sadly many will choose to follow his rebellion after 1000 years of Christ's Reign. People hate rules now, just wait until Christ is reigning and there still in mortal bodies, many will grow weary of Christ"s Rule and be willing to follow Satan during his last stand.

    The problem is how did these Tribulation Saints that escape martydom and survive to the end of the Great Tribulation without receiving the Mark of the Beast miss the Rapture? Consider the cost of refusing the mark, martyrdom or life on the run being hunted down, unable to buy or sell anything. Anyone who is willing to be martyred rather than receive the mark should have realized that to receive the mark meant eternal damnation. They must have come to faith in Christ which is the reason they would be willing to be martyred rather than accept the mark of the Beast. If they believed enough to refuse the mark they should have been Raptured the Day of the Second Coming according to the theory that the Rapture and the Second Coming happen on the same day. But this is not the case. Living Tribulation Saints enter the Millenium in natural bodies and can fall and can sin and can die and can choose to follow Satan's rebellion and can be thrown into the lake of fire.

   This is the problem with this Pre-wrath interpretation. Somehow people believed enough to refuse the mark of the Beast but not enough to be Raptured but then believed enough to be allowed to enter the millenium alive only to experience a 1000 year test with the Lord reigning over earth. Then Satan will be allowed to test them one more final time.

   The question is how did unresurrected natural mankind enter the millenium alive after refusing the mark of the beast but missing the Rapture which leaves them in their natural bodies?

   This is only a problem when the timing of the Rapture is not Pre-Tribulation, before the tribulation period begins.

   In reality those Tribulation Saints that are martyred are the lucky ones, because they will be resurrected and enter the Millenium as priests in immortal bodies that Satan can not test and that the Second Death has no power over. The Tribulation Saints that survive to the end of the Great Tribulation and remain alive in natural bodies when they enter the Millenium are subject to the rules and testing of the Millenium and will be tested by Satan when he is released after the 1000 years are over. The Tribulation Saints that enter the Millenium alive and unresurrected can choose to follow Satan in his rebellion and be cast into the lake of fire with him. The martyed Tribulation Saints receive immortal bodies at the Second Coming of Christ and get a much better deal than those who run and hide and survive.

   I'd recommend martyrdom to the Tribulation period Saints, turn yourself over to Satan's authorities and allow your head to be cut off. By doing so you ensure an immortal body for the Millenium and avoid being tested for a 1000 years and Satan"s rebellion which could cost them their Salvation. Theres no guarentee that those who enter the Millenium alive in unresurrected bodies will not fail the final test and follow Satan into the lake of fire. Thats my opinion of it anyways.

   The Pre-Tribulation interpretation goes like this.

   The Rapture of the Church takes place before the Tribulation period and Daniel's 70th week. Next Daniel's 70th week begins and multitudes come to faith during the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week after witnessing the Rapture. At the mid week of the 70th week Satan is thrown from heaven, Antichrist (the beast) receives authority over the earth for the 42 remaining months of Daniel's 70th week. The Wrath of God begins at the mid week and the effect of the 7 vials begin to be poured out from the midweek on. The new Tribulation period Saints are then hunted down and many are martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast. At the end of the 70th week Christ resurrects the martyred Tribulation Saints and returns to the earth with His WIFE the Raptured Church that has been with Him in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel. The Tribulation Saints that escaped martydom and remained alive until the Second Coming are then gathered by angels to appear at the sheep and goat judgement by Christ along with those who received the mark of the beast who will be destroyed and be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millenium.

    By placing the Rapture and the Second Coming on the same day or even placing the Rapture after the mark of the beast is issued has unresolvable conflicts with Scripture.

    I'll continue on in my next post, got to go coach my sons soccer game now.

                                                                Paul2 8)

                       Pre-Wrath problems part3

Lets take a look at the 7 vials and the effects they have on earth from the Pre-wrath perspective first.

 Revelation 16:1 "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2:  And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

    The effect of the first vial are painful sores which infect those who received the mark of the Beast. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. It would only last for hours instead of days, weeks, months and years. 24 hours of suffering would not be pleasant but nothing compared to approcimately 3 1/2 years of duration if the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague.

Revelation 16:3 "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea."

    The effect of the second vial is that every living soul in the sea dies and the sea becomes as the blood of a dead man. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. Yes its sad that everything in the sea dies but the effect would only last hours as far as the plague aspect. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine that every living thing in the sea dies and there are weeks and months and perhaps a few years of the sea being like the blood of a dead man. Imagine the stench of the coastline and the rotting flesh of sea creatures washing up on shore and the germs and sickness that will follow. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:4 "And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5: And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
 6: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy."

     The effect of the 3rd vial is that the fresh water supply of the world turns to blood, the rivers, the water found underground all turned to blood. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. After all people can go 3 days without drinking water so 24 hours should be easy. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine mankind having no water to drink for months if not a few years. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:8: "And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
 9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

   The effect of the 4th vial will be the sun scorching people with great heat, and remember, they Repented Not. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. It wouldn't be pleasant but it would only be one day in the sun, 24 hours or so in misery. By the way the day of the Second Coming is a cloudy day but thats besides the point. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine being burned by intense heat from the sun for months if not a few years. People complain about a 3 day heat wave now, imagine the worst heat wave in history lasting for months.It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:10: "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
 11: "And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."

   The effect of the 5th vial is darkness on the throne of the Beast, along with the pain from the sores of those who received the mark of the Beast, which is the continueing effect from the first vial. And once again we see that nobody repented. If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not all that bad. Whats the big deal about one day of darkness. When the Pre-Tribulation interpretation is applied to the same plague the results are devasting. Imagine months if not a few years of darkness over the kingdom of the Beast and the painful sores continueing to plague those who accepted the mark of the beast. It becomes horrific if there are months if not a few years of time for this plague to plague the world.

Revelation 16:12: "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
 13:  "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
 14:  "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
 15:  "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
 16:  "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

   The effect of the 6th vial is that the Euphrates River is dried up to "prepare" the way for the kings of the east, also the Satanic Trinity of Satan, Antichrist and the false prophet work miracles to gather the armies of the world "to the battle of THAT great day of God Almighty". If the Rapture occurs the same day as the Second Coming this plague is not possible. The wording of the verses says that "the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. It will take time for the Euphrates to dry up and for the 200 million man army of the kings of the east to go from China to Jerusalem. If it were just kings and not the army spoken of in Revelation 9 they could use bridges but as I said in a previous post there would be an incredible bottleneck traffic jam for 200 million to cross the Euphrates so the river is divinely dried up to PREPARE the way for the gathering around Jerusalem by the armies of the world. The armies of the world must be in place around Jerusalem before the second Coming of Christ and to try to fit all these events into one single day is not possible or probable. The battle of Armegeddon is a campaign not a quickly assembled group that decide to go to Jerusalem at the last moment and arrive and are assembled in a matter of hours. This takes time. Learn from the U.S. lead Iraqi freedom war. How long did it take for our armies to gather around Bagdad? It wasn't hours, it took months of preparation and then days once the final assault began and we set the record for the fastest movement of an army in world history.

Revelation 16:17 "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
 18: "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
 19: "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
 20: "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
 21: "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

  The effect of the 7 vial leads to the return of Christ at His second Coming. This is the time period that Zechariah 14's events take place. The final plague has been poured out on the earth and Christ Himself will be retuning to establish His kingdom after this plague is poured out.
   It should make far more sense to realize that the Wrath of God begins in the middle of Daniel's 70th week which allows the plague to become real horrific plagues that to try to fit all 7 vials between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ to the earth if both events are only hours apart. The Wrath of God wouldn't be all that bad if its effects only last a single day. It wouldn't be a pleasant day by any means but the plagues only become horrific when there is time for the full effect of each plague to manifest itself with the prolonged effects having time to truely devastate those who dwell on the earth.[/color]

                                                      Paul2 8)

                PreWrath Rapture problems part 4

    I have presented evidence that there will be unresurrected people in natural bodies that will enter and dwell in the Millenium on earth. I will offer more evidence from Isaiah.

Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
   7: And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
   8: And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
   9: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.[/color]

    There will be little children on earth during the Millenium. The will be infants on earth during the Millenium. The curse on nature will be removed and the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord. Wild Beasts will allow little children to lead them. These little children and those who are infants are not in resurrected bodies. They have natural bodies without the curse of nature on them. As in the days before noah when men lived to be 800- 900 years old so shall it be during the Millenium. Perhaps the aging process will be much slower than before the flood. The next verse will support the aging process being slower than it was on people before the flood.

Isaiah 65:19: "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
   20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

   Notice carefully that the child shall die an hundred years old, but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.  First of lets remember that the scripture says "Die" which means that death is possible for those who remained alive or were born into the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies. A child will die at a hundred years old. The aging process is extremely slowed down at the time of the Millenium. The sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. This means that by sinning a person can die and will be considered to have been accursed for committing sin. Death has no power over those who are resurrected into immortal bodies. These people spoken of by Isaiah are in mortal natural bodies with the curse of nature removed or at least partly removed. They are still mortal and will also have to be tested when Satan is released from his prison at the end of the Millenium. There is the possiblity that many who enter the Millenium alive in their natural bodies and those who are born of natural men during the Millenium will follow Satan into rebellion when the Millenium ends. Those who were Raptured (the Church) and those who were martyred and resurrected (Old testament and Tribulation Martyred Saints) will not be subject to Satan's last rebellion. Tribulation Saints that survive until the Second Coming of Christ will enter the Millenium in natural unresurrected bodies and they and their children born during the Millenium will be the ones Satan will try to lead astray during his final rebellion.

 Isaiah 65:21: "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
   22: They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
   23: They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
   24: And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
   25: The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."

    I'll stop here for now and allow time for responces.

   I would like an opinion of how I have done so far presenting my case against the possibility of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Have I presented reasonable evidence and backed it up with Scripture? Am I making my case? I truely want to know how I have done so far in presenting the case against the possibility of the Pre-Wrath Rapture as it is presented in these posts. Please let me know your opinions on these last few posts. I want to know how many people feel I'm making a reasonable agruement against the Pre-Wrath interpretation. I'm trying to learn to be more effective in my presentations and explainations, so I welcome the critique. Let me know how you feel I am doing one way or the other.
                                                          Thank you.
                                                            Paul2 8)

I think most of these questions present problems not only for a pre-wrath, but also a post trib view as well.  

I am still a little confused about where pre-wrath places the rapture at in Revelation.  Like you Paul, I also thought Petro mentioned that the second coming in Chapter 19 and the rapture were the same event, but I am not clear on that.  I guess I need to read back through some of the earlier posts.   Since Petro said he didn't wish to continue, my thinking is he will not even reply now.

I have a question for Paul2 and BEP.  Thinking over these things the last few days, I find it troubling that the rapture doctrine has caused so much division amongst believers these days.   This topic seems to stir up more heat these days than it used to when I was younger.  Why is it that we are all not able to discern the same plan regarding this?   It seems each view depends on certain variables in order to reach its conclusion...for example, dispensationalism, or the separate entities of Church and Israel (Ecclesiology?).   Certainly I am no grand theologen, but I have heard various arguments for each view.   Some views make good points, but seem to omit things in other places.  My understanding of scripture taken on a whole still leads me to a pre-trib.   I just find it disturbing that the Church body in general is not in agreement on this very important teaching, the return of our Lord.

What do you guys think about this?   Is it OK to just say, "what ever happens happens".   Surely this can't be right, as we are commanded to watch and occupy till he returns.   Just wondering if you guys feel this way too, or maybe I'm just too tired to think straight   ;)

Grace and Peace!

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

Thanks Brother! - You've done a ton of work. I will want to take my time with this much material and enjoy it. I usually like to take this much material and insert it into the topic notes of e-Sword. That makes it very handy to follow along in the Bible and read more context if you wish and/or read available comparisons. I also like to make my own notes indented in the topic editor as I go.

Brother, I really appreciate the work that you and 2nd Timothy have done in this study. I find it absolutely fascinating. I've wanted to post and participate more, but the last couple of weeks have been pretty wild.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Oklahoma Howdy to 2nd Timothy,

Brother, you made some excellent points, and I understand your concern about disagreements about the sequence of end-time events, especially the rapture.

I also completely agree that the Rapture of the Church will happen before the beginning of the Tribulation Period. I would quickly admit that I'm certainly no authority on this subject. I've read quite a bit of material from people who are recognized as experts on this issue, and many of them disagree.   :D

I would hope that the discussion of this topic could be positive, even among people who don't agree. It is a fascinating and extremely difficult topic that requires large amounts of time studying the Holy Bible. This is positive.

I think that Brothers and Sisters in Christ should be able to discuss this topic, agree or disagree, and not get angry. I think that we had some significant interruption recently from an Armstrongite who frustrated everyone. Someone who denies heaven, hell, and the deity of one or more of the Holy Trinity should not be in this discussion.

I think this thread has an excellent exchange of thoughts and material. I, for one, look forward to continuing this discussion and enjoying the study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

just had to say feeling the same way saveing me money at the book store, guys . good stuff. :)

Brothers, Paul2, 2d Tim and BEP, and whoever else................


I simply have no interest in taking competing theories, and then examining the theories, against each other,  for the sake of making one out to be more believable than the other.

When we started, we were to build the facts which were to garner the truth, from Gods word (or so I thought), as you can see, this quickly turned into trying to prove pre trib theory.

I have been asking questions, in an effort to root out error, and establish what is true, only by doing so can one establish what is to be used or discarded to reach a conclusion.  

I see you fellows do not study scriptures in this way.

As for dispproving a pre wrath post tribu rapture??  I doubt anyone can do this.....

As a child of God, who has studied Gods Word for many years, I am supremely confident, there is no one that can disprove it.

There are competing  post trib theories, just as there are pre trib ones, even some that leave, which leave wiggling room, in theirs, to allow the rapture up to a mid trib position.

I made it clear I do not subscribe to the post trib position which has emerged within the last ten years.

The very understanding of certain key verses, make the Pre Trib position irrelevant, since it is upon these erroneous interpretations that the entire theory is based upon.

I can disprove, it by simply pointing out the errors.

So if any of you, who are serious in seeking out truth and care to examine them, without discussing your theories, I will be glad to point these out for you.

There are huge errors, which unless reconciled with the NT verses themselves,  make the  Pre Tribulation Rapture, as I said .............IRRELEVANT.

I have been busy, with other things more important, and that is primarily, why I decided to not continue, this discussion, which was heading nowhere, in my opinion...

Blessings,

Petro

     Petro,

    I told you I woundn't debate my intepretation with you until you address my challenges to your Pre-Wrath interpretation.

    I posted a 4 part study of the flaws to the Pre-wrath interpretation. You want to continue attacking my position and ignore my challenges to your interpretation. Show me where I'm wrong, show everybody where I'm wrong. Show everybody when the effects of the 7 vials of Wrath take place on the earth in Relation to the timing of the Rapture of the Church, the Second Coming, Daniel's 70th week.

    Explain who is to be tested by Satan in his final rebellion after the Millenium. Look at my posts that I have presented as evidence against the Pre-Wrath being possible. Look at the Scriptures I have used to make the case. Explain to us what the scriptures mean to you. Offer an alternative solution if you see one.

    Present your interpretation for a change. Never mind mine, focus on yours. I want to know what you think and why. I'm trying to understand how your interpretation deals with the effects of the 7 vials of wrath, when they take effect on earth in relation to the timing of the Rapture, the timing of the Second Coming and the 70th week of Daniel. Show me how this is possible. Go back and quote my posts and give an explaination to the questions I raised.

    I'm allowing you the chance to teach your interpretation to me and those who read. I want to understand your prespective because I've never heard your interpretation presented before. From what I've seen so far I can not accept your interpretation as possible because of the reasons I have stated in my 4 part post examining Scripture.

    My interpretation makes perfect sense to me, yours doesn't. I see problems with your interpretation that I can not ignore. Give me your answers to the questions I have raised. Make sense out of the problems I see. Why should anyone consider your view when you don't explain it so we can at least understand what you believe. I'm not saying I'll believe what ever you post but I would like to understand how you see it differently and why. The Scriptures I used in my 4 part posts are stumbling blocks to your interpretation being possible as far as I'm concerned. Your haven't shown anyone how your theory deals with the verses that to me make your interpretation impossible.

    You think I'm stupid, well maybe I am. Teach me. Explain to me where I'm wrong. What do you see that I don't see? Why can't you see what I see? These questions puzzle me. I believe that until you try to explain your position of the things I have posted that challenge the Pre-Wrath Rapture, you won't realize there are problems. I don't know if you want to face them or not but I see problems. I'm asking you to explain the events according to your position in a way that I can understand the timing of the effects of the 7 vials of the Wrath of God in relation to the timing of the Rapture, the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week.

    I don't see how your theory is possible. I don't see how your theory can be defended. I don't understand why you don't see the flaws I have pointed out. I don't understand how you can ignore this issue. I believe I have proven your theory is not possible. You want to continue your assault on my interpretation while your interpretation remains undefended and proven wrong.

    Why won't you present your interpretation in defense of my challenge to the Pre-wrath Rapture? Why won't you show us how you reconcile the Scriptures I provided as support for my challenge? Why won't you show us how you can still believe what you believe after the evidence I provided points out flaws? You don't see flaws? Then reply to the flaws I see and explain where I'm wrong. Tell me how it works. Address each point I made and explain the correct understanding.

    Present your evidence. Pretend this is Trial. You have been assaulting the Pre-Tribulation interpretation from the beginning. I have made a challenge to your Pre-Wrath interpretation using your interpretation to do it, not mine. I don't see how you can come to your conclusions based on the Scripture I presented as evidence. I don't see your interpretation as being a possiblity. If I'm wrong show me.

   I consider you to be proven wrong as of right now. You want to continue to attack and save face but I think your cart is hitched to a dead horse. I'm beating on a dead horse right now.

    I believe I have proved your interpretation has flaws. Your interpretations flaws are recorded on my 4 part post for all to see. They've been up for a few days now. As of right now my challenges to your interpretation remain undefended or answered. As of right now your Pre-Wrath interpretation has been proven to be flawed. You want to ignore this but that changes nothing.

   All who read can see that I'm more than willing to allow you to present and defend your position. If you have answers post them, If you don't have the answers say so. I'll just keep beating the dead horse. I have allowed you to attack and belittle me for a long time. I deserve the right to ask you to explain your interpretation seeing you always attack mine.

    I have presented what I believe are scriptures which prove beyond doubt that the Pre-Wrath Rapture is not possible because Scripture does not allow it to be possible. You want to ignore this but I believe that I have proven beyond doubt that your theory has flaws. I'm not willing to discuss my interpretation with you until you address the issues I raised with your interpretation.

    Until you can present and defend your position you lack the credibility to attack the Pre-Tribulation interpretation.

    Your theory has flaws and I've exposed the flaws unchallenged and unopposed and so far undefended.

    Why should anyone pay attention to you when you can't present and defend what you believe? Why should anyone listen to your attacks on the Pre-Trib. interpretation which you don't understand, when you can't or won't present your interpretation of the Pre-wrath interrpretation you claim to hold?

   I don't think you have an answer to my challenges. I used Scripture to present my evidence. You should have the ability to take those Scriptures and explain how they do not prove your theory wrong. You should be able to explain all the issues I brought up in my 4 part post on the Pre-Wrath Rapture which you continue to ignore.

   Your theory is down for the count. Days are going by and no responce or defense of your position has been offered.

    I'd like to know what others think about that. What do the rest of you think? Anybody wondering as I am of why Petro won't defend the Pre-Wrath position from my challenges to his theory being even possible? Anybody think Petro doesn't have the answers?

   Well Petro, do you have any answers to the challenges I have made against the Pre-Wrath Rapture being possible?

    Can you explain "the timing of the effects of the 7 vials of the Wrath of God in relation to the timing of the Rapture, the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week or can't you?

   If you can provide the answers to the questions I have raised in my 4 part post we'd all like to have them. Everybody should want the answers to the questions I have raised. I don't believe the Pre-Wrath Rapture is possible at all. I provided my evidence of why. My challenge remains unanswered and undefended and unchallenged and the clock is still ticking.

                                                      Paul2 8)

   Petro,

   Which part of present and defend your intepretation don't you understand?  8)

   I have made a challenge to your interpretation using Scripture in a 4 part series. I believe my evidence proves the Pre-Wrath theory to be flawed and not possible.

   Until the issues in my 4 part post are explained the evidence provided proves the Pre-Wrath interpretation is not Biblical or possible.

    Prove me wrong. Show me the answer to the problems I have addressed. Teach your interpretation. Explain your interpretation. Present your interpretation or change your interpretation because of the flaws I have pointed out. How can your interpretation be possible? What are your answers to the questions I raised? If you can't answer the questions just say so. Please don't keep avoiding the issue.

   I believe that I have proven your Pre-Wrath theory to be wrong. My evidence has been presented for all to see. I see no alterative view to make me believe I have not proven the Pre-Wrath Rapture is not possible. When I remain unchallenged I'm led to the conclusion that I have proven my case. That there is no defense possible and therefore the Pre-Wrath interpretation is also not possible.

   Until we see evidence presented to the contrary the Pre-Wrath Rapture has been proven to be impossible. You may question my theory because you don't understand it but your theory was destroyed by its own interpretation. I didn't need to do anything other than to apply your theory to Scripture to see if there was even a slight possibility of it being correct and Scripture proved it can not be correct. Applying your theory to Scripture does not work. Applying the Pre-Tribulation interpretation to Scripture allows the possiblity that it is correct. Your theory defeats itself. The Pre-Tribulation theory does not need to be applied to your theory because your theory has internal conflicts that have no resolution allowed by Scripture.

    Your theory is dead and exposed as of now. If I'm wrong you'll have to present your evidence and explain the Scriptures I used as evidence against the Pre-Wrath position being possible.

   You claim to seek after the truth, well prove it by seeking the truth in the evidence I presented against the Pre-Wrath Rapture being possible. Reveal the truth so all who read can understand how you reconcile the Scriptures I have used as evidence that your theory is flawed.

   Answer these things and I'll be happy to allow you to start bashing me again. I provide answers which you don't like but at least I try to provide answers and explainations of what I believe. You try. Why should people not consider your Pre-Wrath interpretation to be proved wrong? Why should people listen to you bash a theory you don't understand when you can't present a theory you claim to hold as truth? How do you dispute my challenges to your theory? Do you have any disputes to my challenges I have made or have I won?

    Do you have answers to my challenges or not? I don't think you can present or defend your interpretation but I'm giving you the chance to do so and prove me wrong.

    I'm going to take "no reply" as a victory and consider that I have made my case against the Pre-Wrath Rapture being possible or defended. I'll retract my claimed victory when I'm shown evidence that explains why I'm wrong and how the Pre-Wrath Rapture is possible against the Scriptures I have provided as evidence it can not be possible.

    The balls in your court. After months of attacks I have finally made a challenge to you. Explain and defend your theory in regards to my 4 part post on why I believe your theory is impossible. I know you love to attack the Pre-Tribulation theory but now I ask you to present and defend your Pre-wrath theory. Humor me as I have humored you. Show us that you can defend your position when people attack your interpretation as you do to theirs. Once you reply to my challenge your welcome to start on your attacks again.

    First show us that your able to present and defend your theory when all Scriptures are applied to it. Give us a lesson on Pre-Wrath Rapture 101! How can your theory be possible in light of my 4 part posts of challenges?

    Don't worry about me, I'm not holding my breath!

    I had planned on this being a one-liner post but got carried away trying to encourage Petro to respond again. Sorry  ;)

                                                       Paul2 8)

Paul2,

You have no basis for challenging anything, you haven't even cleared up your misunderstandings of the scriptures you have butchered to get where you got.!

I have tried to get you to explain these inconsistencies from the begining, and you have failed miserably, these questions will not die by your ignoring them.

Just because you have a theory, doesn't make it true, even thou you appear to be able to expalin it by ignoring tough questions.

Your theory, has died with your misintrepretation of the apostasia  the  "falling away" at 2 Th 2:3, so you have nothing beyond that point, except pure speculation.

So what else can I say;  either "falling away" means apostasy, or rature, which is it??

You do greatly error not knowning the scriptures....................the rest is founded on this error.....

If you ever get around to explaining this modern interpretation of the word apostasia, the word apantesis awaits your explanantion, both of these words by themselves discredit your understanding of timing and occurance of the rapture, ............that is a fact..


You need to face it.  or lose credibility....As I said before, the Pre Tribulation Rapture is of recent origins, begining with a prophecy of Margaret Mc Donald in and around 1830, there is no evidence of it, being taught in the church prior to that time.

You have to face the music sooner or later on this crucial fact.

My questions to you, are designed to get you to critically examine your theory with scripture, or think things through, instead of running around half cocked on this subject.


These Two key words, and there understanding must be considered and reconciled with the Pre Trib teaching, understand these, and, there is no Pre Trib rapture, onyl by ignoring these definitions, can one continue teaching such a spurious doctrine.

There is a third word, one should familiarize themselves with also, and that is the word;  parousia (at his coming) 1 Cor 15;23.


You really should consider these things.

Why allow yourself be labeled, a false prophet, because of your refusal to work out the correct interpretative teachings of scripture...??


Blessings,  
Petro

BEP,

You are correct, "self pro-claimed experts are found in both of these camps, I have always wondered why they consider themselves "experts", when they are neither, most all of these ignore the meaning of words also, that is why they rest on error.




As I stated previously I agree with you here.

If you are serious about the studying you have been doing on this matter, I trust you have considered the words I have given you all.


Blessings,

Petro

     Petro,

   LOL, you can call me anything you want, doesn't mean its true.

    Back to attacking my interpretation again I see. You just can't defend the flaws I've pointed out in your interpretation.

    I had no credibility to lose with you. Everyone else can see whats going on here. You are fooling yourself and nobody else.

    I find it funny that you want to teach me about my theory but can't present your own theory or address the flaws which i have pointed out.

    Your defense is : "You need to face it.  or lose credibility....As I said before, the Pre Tribulation Rapture is of recent origins, begining with a prophecy of Margaret Mc Donald in and around 1830, there is no evidence of it, being taught in the church prior to that time."

    Classic, your back to Margaret McDonald again. Good presentation and defense of your theory you've got going!

   You said "Why allow yourself be labeled, a false prophet, because of your refusal to work out the correct interpretative teachings of scripture...??"

   Well instead of calling me a false prophet why not show me the correct interpretation of the Scriptures I used to expose flaws in your theory? I find it laughable that you still refuse to address the issues I have stated as flaws to your theory.

   Whats the big secret? Why can't you explain what you believe? What are you afraid of? Why do you find it so hard to present an answer to my challenge? I posted 4 pages analizing your theory and the glaring flaws with it I see.

    Your defense of your theory is to try to attack my theory again. I'm not going to discuss my theory until we have discussed yours. We have spent months with you attacking the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I think its fair that we spend a few minutes addressing the issues I have presented as flaws to your theory.

    You only want to "play" by your rules. Try playing by mine for a change. You have been doing all the attacking. I have been allowing you to post whatever you want. I'm tired of being attacked by someone who can't and won't present their interpretation.

    You just don't seem to get it. If anyone wants to know why I repeat myself so often its because of people like you.

    {All together now, one more time in harmony}
   Petro, Can you explain "the timing of the effects of the 7 vials of the Wrath of God in relation to the timing of the Rapture, the Second Coming and Daniel's 70th week or can't you?

    I've asked the same question so many times I'm tempted to go back and count how many time I've asked it. To save myself time I'll refer to this question as "the question" from now on because I'm tired of typing it over and over. People are probably tired of reading it over and over. We'll all be able to recite my question by heart I've asked it so many times.

   Forget Margaret McDonald, forget the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and focus on what Petro believes. I have every right to ask what you believe if your going to be calling me a false prophet. You can call me "Mary" McDonald but that doesn't answer the question does it?

   You can't present or defend your interpretation. Thats the bottom line! If you could have you would have or at least should have. I've stumped the all wise Petro. My challenge remains unanswered.

   It appears I know more about your theory than you do. I might be wrong about that perhaps you know your theory has flaws and that you can't defend it against the evidence in my 4 part post.

    Perhaps your hpoing that my posts will become buried and nobody will go back and read them. I'll just resurrect them when they get buried. You crossed the line with me when you accused me of being a false prophet. I think your wrong on your interpretation but have not called you a false prophet.

    I decided it was time to challenge you and your interpretation after allowing you months to attack me and my interpretation.

   Somehow you see this as dishonest. Whatever! I'm asking you to explain how your theory deals with the points I addressed in my 4 part post. If your theory has nothing to hide then explain it. You've lost the credibility not me.

   I'm not afraid of your defense, I'd love to learn what defense you can offer. I'm learning how to debate your interpretation and I believe I have won the debate. I have stated my case, backed it up with Scripture and received no reply or any explaination. I've written several posts trying to get you to present your theory but you remain silent.

   I'll deal with your questions after we finish discussing your theory for a change. I don't want to discuss the Pre-Tribulation Rapture with you at this time. I want to discuss the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the flaws I have pointed out with the theory.

   I tchanged my mind, I do take offense to you calling me false prophet. You have no right.  You conceal your theory which I am seeking to bring out into the light of day. You won't explain "the questions" I have raised about your theory. You haven't presented your theory yet here you are on my thread attacking my interpretation repeatedly. You want to attack me then earn the right to attack me. Present your interpretation to the questions I have asked. Stop hiding behind Margaret McDonald and your attacks and deal with your interpretation for once in your life.

    I could resort to name calling to try and humiliate you into answering me but I not going to. This victory is to important to cheapen it with insults. I wish I didn't have to type any of these last posts. I was hoping you would present and defend your interpretation. Obviously you can't or we wouldn't be talking about Margaret McDonald again! LOL  ;D

   I don't think anyone is listening to you anymore Petro. I'm sure their reading these posts for entertainment but you lost your credibility to debate me. You will not present your interpretation to us but you want us to let you call us false prophets and attack us. I'm here on MY thread to present my interpretation and to discuss it. Your here on MY thread to stop my presentation or disrupt it. What about Petro's interpretation. Do you charge money for your interpretation, is that it? How much does it cost for you to present your interpretation? Maybe we can get a collection going to pay you to enlighten us to your interpretation. I'll pay 10 bucks to see it after all this time of trying to get you to present it for free.

   I've said my piece about 6 times on this. Each time its the same thing, Paul2 trying to pry Petro's concealed interpretation out of him. I'm willing to pay for it now. 10 bucks, give me your interpretation to my 4 part post on the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

   I'm going to take my 4 pages and start an new thread with them. I'm not going to stop beating this dead horse until I am shown the answer to why I should. I'm convinced beyond doubt that I have proven your theory wrong. You offered NOTHING to change my mind.

                                                   Paul2 8)

     Petro and all who read,

    I just looked back over the posts. Starting on page 20 of this threat I've asked you the same question at least 30 times and made references to it about a hundred times if not more. If anyone doubts it just go back to page 20 and read my posts to Petro and read his responces. Its truely becoming funny!

  For the 101st time, "When do the effects of the 7 vials take place on the earth in relation to the timing of the Rapture of the Church, the Second Coming of Christ and Daniel's 70th week?"

    I began asking this question on March 26th on reply 274. I've asked for it or made reference to it well over a hundred times with NO REPLY from you. You choose to ignore my question I've made reference to 101 times but still continue to attack the Pre-Tribulation Rapture using Margaret McDonald. I'm laughing out loud!

  I don't think Petro can answer ""When the effects of the 7 vials take place on the earth in relation to the timing of the Rapture of the Church, the Second Coming of Christ and Daniel's 70th week?"

    I wish someone would ask Petro if he knows the answer to the question why he hides it from us. If you can answer my challenges why don't you? We are just supposed to believe that you have the answers but not expect you to explain? Are we just supposed to trust you without testing your interpretation with Scripture? I believe you have no answer for my challenge and until you prove otherwise I win! Your theory is not possible plain and simple, just the way you like it!
   The Bible is not plain and simple, its the most complexed collection of writings ever written and the Word of God!
                                           

                                                            Paul2 8)

For the 102nd time, "When do the effects of the 7 vials take place on the earth in relation to the timing of the Rapture of the Church, the Second Coming of Christ and Daniel's 70th week?" I can't stop, I'm addicted to these words now. I hear them in my sleep. I lost count of how mant times I used these words. Anyone want a good laugh? Look at posts from #274 on this thread to now and look at how many times I've used these words and how many times Petro has completely ignored them. Petro will try to talk about anything except my question.

     As if to be saying "Pay no attention to Paul2 asking me that question for which I have no answer yet. What about Margaret McDonald! I'm Rolling on the floor laughing out loud over here! It doesn't get any better than this! This will be known as a CLASSIC! Petro remains speachless after 102 tries to learn his theory. The only SECRET RAPTURE THEORY I've seen is the one Petro is afraid to reveal to anyone. Talk about a private interpretation, his is so secret he can't tell anyone about it! I'm cracking myself up over here! I truely find this humourus but in a sad way. Don't bother using the phrase Secret Rapture with me. Your the one keeping the interpretation of the Pre-Wrath Rapture a secret! I'm even willing to pay $10 bucks for it! Maybe 2nd Timothy and Tom will chip in! 8)

    "SECRET RAPTURE" "PRIVATE INTERPRETATION" SOUNDS LIKE PETRO'S LACK OF INTERPRETATION. Margaret McDonald
 Margaret McDonald  Margaret McDonald  Margaret McDonald
 Margaret McDonald  Margaret McDonald  Margaret McDonald!

    And the answer to the question I've asked 103 times is:

Margaret McDonald! Margaret McDonald! Margaret McDonald!
LOL!!!!!!!

    Thats what I call CLASSIC! 8)

    Never mind Margaret McDonald! Just deal with the issues of my 4 part post and the famous question I'll ask again for the 104th time now.

    ""When do the effects of the 7 vials of Wrath take place on the earth in relation to the timing of the Rapture of the Church, the Second Coming of Christ and Daniel's 70th week?"

    Take your time I've waited since Marth 26th already for any responce at all and I'm still waiting. Don't take to long, Christ may Rapture the Church before you can present your interpretation of why he can't! I wouldn't bet against it.

                                                         Paul2 8)

Paul2,


I say keep waiting!

You have refused to asnwer issues raised by me, from the very begining.

It is now clear to me, your invitation for input  by anyone, was only a come on, in an attempt of advancing your  teaching.


You really had no intentions of having your theory tested, at all.

Well, I hate to tell you, your theory has not passed muster.

Good luck, selling it.....to others.


Blessings..



Petro

PS                      Paul2,

It matters little if you start another thread on this same subject, the same questions I have posed will need to be addressed, sooner or later.

Otherwise the end result of your conclusions will be incomplete..

So you simply will find yourself at sqaure one.


Period.........


Blessings,

Petro

     Petro,

    You still don't get it. I'll discuss my theory when you present and defend your theory which I have shattered,

    You can run away to save face but nobodies buying it. Your beaten and you know it.

    If you had answers you'd provide them to make me look stupid but you have no answers so you just keep trying to attack me and my interpretation.

   Earn that right. Answer my questions about your lack of an interpretation. Present your theory.

   Learn how to present your theory and then you will have earned the right to attack mine. Your theory fell apart on March 26th and remains flawed and proven not possible.

   I would have thought that by now you'd have come up with something. I guess I dealt your theory a death blow that you can't defend. Somebody once told me you'd admit your wrong if you were proven wrong. Obviously they were mistaken.

   This should be a lesson to understand your theory before attacking others. You should put as much effort into presenting your theory as you put into attacking others interpretations. A lesson that you haven't learned yet.

   Oh, one more thing. You fell back to using Margaret McDonald again as a attack against pre-Tribulation Rapture.

   When did your theory emerge? Perhaps it hasn't emerged as a total theory yet which might explain why you can't defend or even present your theory.

   Remember when I said "its time for me to have some fun? Well I'm having fun watching you try to ignore your theory that has been proven flawed. I'm enjoying watching you try to avoid the issues I presented against your theory and the fact you can't present your theory at all. I couldn't have asked for more. Thank you!

   This is the first time I've debated your theory and I seem to have exposed the flaws so well you can't even respond to my posts at all. Your Pre-Wrath interpretation does exist anymore. Its been exposed as a flawed impossible theory.

   Come on back when you've learned how to present your theory. We will be waiting if the Rapture doesn't take place first.

   Victory is mine. Your theory remains exposed and flawed and undefended. I thought for sure you'd have the courage to present and defend your theory. I never expected to win without a fight. Had I known I was going to silence you I'd have tried to have gone slower rather than destroying your theory in a few hours. Who knew it would be so easy to prove your theory wrong?

    When you find a new theory you can present and defend run it by me, I'll let you know if its any better than the Pre-Wrath interpretation you don't seem to be able to present or defend. I'm here for you Petro, and I'd be happy to help you spot the flaws in an intepretation as soon as you learn to present one.

                                                        Paul2 8)

paul2,

The scriptures you used, you had to twist, stretch and re-interpret, how does that make your theory right??

I wouldn't brag about it.


You have lost sight of  your purpose for posting this thread, you have almost become rabid about this issue, you need to take a few steps back, and take a deep breath, an  consider what has been said, to you,  ............you have become  mesmerized by your writings, as though they are become inspired.  

Are you sure you are not trying to convince anyone about your theory??

Relax,it is clear, you are trying to convince us of your theory ,it won't happen, unless you first begin by  reconciling the errors you embrace, contrary to scritural teaching,  you can't disregard the truth of Gods word forever concerning this matter, and still expect to have followers.....

Is  the "falling away" the great apostasy or is it as you state, the rapture??

Is the word "meet", apatensis,  in 1 Th 4:17, defined as a turning back into the heavenlies for 7 years, as you have re interpreted it to mean, or  is it "as defined by biblical scholars and Gods inspired Word??

 Apantesis[/i] is used is in John 12:12-13. (Note, some Greek manuscripts show a one letter difference between this word and the one used in I Thes.4:17. The difference is in the first letter #5222, hupantesis,  which is why it is not shown as being the same word in Strong's Concordance .

However, the Nestle text of the Greek shows it as the same word.

You and others may be unaware of this, this is why, you miss this VERY important point.

I am not trying to confuse you or your friends; thou you may NOT believe this to be so, (but rather, I am attempting to  connect dots for you. Since it is clear to me, you have no interest in addressing the truth of these hard questions, I have shared with you).

Verses 12-13 in John chapter 12 reads as follows:

The next day the great crowd that had come for the feast heard that Jesus was on His way to Jerusalem. They took palm branches and went out to meet [apantesis] him shouting "Hosanna:"......

After meeting Him, where did they all go??  

Did they return with Him, back where He came from??

This may shock you, but the answer is NO,  He (Jesus) entered the city, followed by the crowd, His entrance into the City is fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9 and is also a picture of His future entrance  into the City of  Jerusalem in triumph as King over all the earth, at His Second Coming. (Zec 14:9)

I can't help it if you haven't considered any of this, while fabricating your theory and whether you except this or not, does not matter to me, but this is truth.
 
Now, Note verses 15-18;

Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.
The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.
For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.



Yaa, I here you....................but

I think, you are trying to make me believe what you do, and
since I don't swoon and fall at your feet,  .........this is what is so frusterating for you...........sorry charlie,

I can see the deception in the words you began this thread with.  Now

Blessings

Petro

    Hey Tom and 2nd Timothy,

    Where did you guys go?

                                                         Paul2 8)

       I don't know when Isaiah chapter 17 will happen. It could be any day if the United States gets attacked and we find out it was a Syrian plot. The nuclear genie is about to come bounding out of the bottle but where and when are still the mystery. Russia has so many nuclear missles missing and 43 suitcase nukes missing its just a matter of time before an explosion takes place. If New York was nuked I could see the U.S. responding with nuclear weapons. This could happen before or after the Rapture or next week if the world suddenly goes crazy. Terror is the weapon of the future. We have the best military so weak countries seek nuclear weapons to put us at a stale-mate. But somebody, somewhere is making plans to attack the U.S. and if they are sucessful we will retailiate. This could get bad really quickly just like how the world changed from September 10th 2001 to the next day September 11th 2001. a single event on a single day can alter everything for the future.

                                                       Paul2

     I'm resurrecting this thread again...

Good glad to see that brother, you have alot of work in this thread. :D :D :D

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

How can I not reply? Must bump

Brother David,

Many of us did Bible Studies on this important topic with Paul2. The last I heard, Paul2 is going through some difficult health problems. I still pray for him and would love to see him back to continue this study.

We even had some differences, but I thought that made the study more interesting. It is a difficult and time-consuming study, but I think it's fascinating. The timing and sequence of End of this Age of Grace Events were the main source of differences. Some would say that great amounts of time should not be spent on a subject like this, but it actually involves many portions of the Bible and topics of great importance other than just the Rapture.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

It is coming and we will go home

Hello Brother David,

I've been without a computer and sure have missed everyone. I have a new computer now that I'm trying to learn, and things are looking good. This computer will last me until the RAPTURE. YES - The RAPTURE will happen, and it could be any time now! WHAT A DAY OF REJOICING THAT WILL BE! Brother, I'll see you in the clouds, and we'll run races.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 4:1-18 NASB  Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart,  2  but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.  3  And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,  4  in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.  5  For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.  6  For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.  7  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;  8  we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing;  9  persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;  10  always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.  11  For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.  12  So death works in us, but life in you.  13  But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak,  14  knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you.  15  For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.  16  Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.  17  For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,  18  while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hello Brother David,

I'm glad to see this thread being looked at and studied again. It's a beautiful thing to think about, and something that could happen at any time. It's almost beyond human imagination, but IT'S GOING TO BE REAL. It's a Promise from GOD, ad GOD keeps all of HIS Promises!

HE gave us glimpses of the ULTIMATE REALITY in HIS WORD. We're just humans, so it is hard for us to imagine. Just think about what Jesus told His flock:

John 14:1-3 ASV  Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.  2  In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.  3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Brother, you've seen the portions of Scripture below, but I love them and want to post them again.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ASV  13  But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.  14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.  16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;  17  then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 ASV   50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  51  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,  52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  54  But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  55  O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?  56  The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law:  57  but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  58  Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

Revelation 21:4-23 ASV   4  and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.  5  And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.  6  And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.  7  He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.  8  But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.  9  And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.  10  And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,  11  having the glory of God: her light was like unto a stone most precious, as it were a jasper stone, clear as crystal:  12  having a wall great and high; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:  13  on the east were three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.  14  And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  15  And he that spake with me had for a measure a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.  16  And the city lieth foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs: the length and the breadth and the height thereof are equal.  17  And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.  18  And the building of the wall thereof was jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto pure glass.  19  The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;  20  the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.  21  And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the several gates was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.  22  And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God the Almighty, and the Lamb, are the temple thereof.  23  And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.

Revelation 22:1-8 ASV  1  And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,  2  in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.  3  And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him;  4  and they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.  5  And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.  6  And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass.  7  And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.  8  And I John am he that heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that showed me these things.