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Who Is Your Apostle?

Just Asking Who Is Your Apostle? There are 2 choices. Peter and the 11 or Paul. Peter was sent to Israel. Paul was sent to the Gentiles. Peter preached a coming kingdom. Paul preached a leaving body (rapture). Peter preached works for salvation. Paul preached grace for salvation. Peter says keep the law. Paul says you cannot keep the law. Peter says don’t eat catfish. Paul says eat all things. Peter says meet on Saturday. Paul says meet on Sunday. Peter preached you must be water baptized. Paul preached you do not need water baptism. Peter preached sell all you have and God will take care of you. Paul preached if you do not work you do not eat. Peter preached the cross as a curse to Israel. Paul preached the curse removed. Peter never says he is the pattern for the Gentiles. Paul says he is the pattern for the Gentiles.

Who is your apostle? Until the rapture of the church – Paul is.

Who Is Your Apostle?
The answer to this question will determine whether you are law or grace oriented.
For those who follow Peter and the 11 must also keep the law of Moses and keeping the law of Moses is no easy task.

Besides the 10 commandments there are 610 additional laws that must be kept.

And according to James: James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Thankfully, we are not under the law but under grace (Rom.6:14) as our apostle - the apostle to the gentiles (not Israel) in the dispensation of the grace of God (not the dispensation of the law of Moses) tells us. Yes Paul, not Peter is our apostle today for the bible says of Paul…

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

1 Tim 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Tim 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Is It Peter Or Paul?
Is It Peter Or Paul?
Peter was the chief apostle to the twelve tribes of Israel 2,000 years ago and one day he will sit on one of the 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. According to the bible Israel was set aside as the agency through which God would reveal himself to mankind. The reason they were set aside was spiritual blindness.

With the setting aside of Israel as his agent God turned to the Gentiles. He raised up Saul of Tarsus. Later Saul has his name changed to Paul. It was to Paul that the risen Lord Jesus Christ revealed an unprophesied mystery program for the Gentiles called the "dispensation of the grace of God". To Paul was revealed that God's new agency would be called the "body of Christ." Salvation would not be according to the law of Moses but built upon faith in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. To Paul was given the doctrine, duty and destiny of the church the body of Christ.

At the end of this age God will "catch away" his body in a cataclysmic event of biblical proportions commonly called the "rapture" of the church. God at that time will fulfill all the blessings and cursings that belong to Israel.

So, you see, it is very important to follow the right message today. If you try to follow Peter you will be to little to late, but with Paul you will be right on time.

Robbing Peter To Pay Paul

by Doug Dodd s.b.g.


*****************

Recently I read a book titled "Why you say it". It tells where a lot of the phrases that we use daily come from. The phrase "Robbing Peter to pay Paul" wasn’t in the book but is one that I am hearing more and more lately along with phrases like "Paul the renegade" and "Paul the trouble maker".

As we head into the next millenium we can expect to hear more of these kinds of phrases as "grace churches" continue to press the issue of Pauline authority.

C. I. Scofield was right when he said, "... it is in the Pauline epistles alone that you find the doctrine, duty and destiny of the church the body of Christ."

For to long has the body of Christ languished in the shadow of the dark ages. Those ages denied the truth of the "one body, the pre tribulational catching away of the church and salvation by grace through faith" to the masses. For to long the works of the law have dominated through the preaching of denominations. It is time for grace believers to become grace soldiers. It is time to make some waves it is time to rock the boat.

Are we robbing Peter to pay Paul? Not if you ask Peter. Peter understood that the nation of Israel was being set aside. He understood that the Body of Christ was not spiritual Israel but God’s agency through which he would work during the present "dispensation of grace" (Eph. 3). He understood that Paul was writing inspired scripture. (2 Pet 3:15,16) Peter knew the difference between the "gospel of the circumcision" committed to him and the "gospel of the Uncircumcision" committed to Paul (Gal. 2).

Are we robbing Peter to pay Paul? Not if you ask the Lord Jesus Christ. For it was the risen Lord Jesus Christ that gave Paul the revelation of the mystery (Gal 1, Eph. 3, Rom. 16 etcetera, etcetera, etcetera). It was the risen Lord Jesus Christ that gave Paul his authority. 1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."

Do we rob Peter to pay Paul? Not if you ask Paul for he is the chief of sinners, the least of all saints and our pattern. (1 Tim 1:15, Eph 3:8 & 1 Tim 1:16).

No, it has been the other way around for a long time. Paul and thereby the body of Christ, and thereby the lost of this world, have been robbed by religion, tradition and denominational teaching. It is time to get things back in order.

If you are going to be a part of what God is doing today you will have to follow the pattern. The pattern that God has given us to follow is Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, in the dispensation of the grace of God.

You scared me for a second there. When I first say the topic, I thought “No, please don’t tell me this is a ‘Which Apostle are you?’ quiz!” :-\ Thank God that isn’t he case!  ;D

 ;D

Tippy who is your Apostle?

Thomas, because I’m a complete jerk when I think Jesus isn’t around. ;D

Paul, because without my Glasses, I'm blind.

lol j/k

Ok, I'd better stop. ;D I'm going to get to heaven, some guy in a robe will walk up to me "Hey, I heard what you said! I'm Thomas... and Jesus isn't around >:( " *Whack* ;)

Oklahoma Howdy to Ambassador4Christ,

Paul told me about a mystery not known to men of other ages.

Paul told me about the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Paul told me about Jesus dying on the cross in my stead, paying for my sins, and offering to be my Lord and Saviour, the Lord of my life.

Paul told me about Jesus Christ fulfilling the law, a law that I couldn't fulfill.

Paul told me about the BODY OF CHRIST, a CHURCH not made with human hands.

Paul told me about a GIFT that would be given me full and free by faith in Jesus Christ and acceptance of HIM as my personal Lord and Saviour.

Paul told me that the blood of Jesus would wash all my sins away.

Paul told me about walking in the SPIRIT, fellowship with CHRIST, and the fruits of the SPIRIT.

Paul told me about being saved by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not of works or deeds of the law lest any man should boast.

Yes, Paul explained a beautiful mystery not known to men of other ages.

Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT!

Love In Christ,
Tom

There is no difference-each taught what he was called to teach, to the audience God called him to teach it to. The apostles were not Judaizers! The fulfillment of the law through Christ had not come yet when Peter taught the old ways, neither had the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and neither had God turned away from the Jews yet.
As it is written:

1 Corinthians 3:5-8

3:5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

3:6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

3:7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

3:8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Blessings,
Whitehorse

All!

Since there is only one gospel of Jesus Christ, they all preached this same one gospel.

In Acts 15 Peter seems to be in accordance with Paul.

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.

One must put the words of all the apostles together to come up with the whole, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The one and only true gospel. None other.

Love in Christ,
Ollie

Brother Tom, have I told you lately, I love you.
AAAAAAAAAAAMEN! Bro

Ollie: One must put the words of all the apostles together to come up with the whole, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The one and only true gospel. None other.

Love in Christ,
Ollie

I pray that you will start doing that Ollie.

Oklahoma Howdy to Ambassador4Christ,

Brother, I love you too. Today was a beautiful family day with God, and we had much to give thanks for. I give thanks for my Brothers and Sisters in Christ every day. I also give thanks every day that we are free to read our Bibles, worship, gather for fellowship, and pray whenever we want to without fear of persecution. I read the recent article about Christians in other parts of the world who are being put in prison for studying their Bibles and worshiping Christ. I think that we take many things for granted and do not realize how precious our freedoms are. When I think about freedom, I also have to give thanks to our veterans, past and current, who fight and die to preserve our way of life. Today was a good day to reflect on the many blessings God has granted us. It was a beautiful day of prayer and thanks.

Love In Christ,
Tom

The bible reveals one gospel of Jesus Christ.
There is not one from Peter for the Jews and another from Paul for the gentiles.  The gospel of Christ makes one of the two, neither jew nor greek but one in Christ Jesus.

Peter:

Acts 2:39.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This does not connotate a seperation of the gospel, one to the Jews from Peter and one from Paul to the gentiles. It says the promeise is unto those present in Acts 2, their children, all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The Lord calls both Jew and gentile through the gospel of Christ as given by Christ and the Holy Spirit to all the apostles.
They are called into one body, Christ's.
God did not seperate this calling in two, Jews and gentiles, but rather through this gospel made one of the two, the body of Christ, the ecclesia.
 

WOW!   You claim leadership of Paul. The guy spent years and zillions of words to unite the body and what has he gotten from most here division.

Amen Ollie and Reba,

"In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

Anyone claiming to have Paul as his Apostle would not be claiming to have Paul as his Apostle if they really had Paul as his Apostle, because Paul, that is, the Apostle, told us specifically:

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
What I mean is this:

One of you says, I follow Paul; another, I follow Apollos; another, I follow Cephas; still another, I follow Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptised into the name of Paul?

There it is in black and white... so to speak.  ;)

Ollie this is to Israel:
Peter:

Acts 2:39.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

You need to read Acts Chapter 2 with your eyes opened.

Grace & Peace

From the writings of your Apostle.. .

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
KJV

Col 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
KJV

Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
KJV

AMEN!

double talk is hypocritical

If you mean me, I believe the Word of God. The verses you posted, I agree with.

Grace & Peace

???

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

A lot of this appears to be nit-picking and semantics.

Who did God commission as the Apostle to the gentiles??

PAUL.

I find extreme value and purpose for every word in the Holy Bible, from cover to cover. However, if you ask the question above, there is an easy and simple answer.

Love In Christ,
Tom

The church is being put together presently it is not totally unified just yet.

Even among the gentiles there is no unification presently and mainly because there is a sprinkling of tares among the wheat, or goats among the sheep, it will not occur until the shepherd separates them.

But the most interesting factor between jew and gentile is the way they come to be justified, Gods word does make a distinction of how they are justified one from the other, note;


Rom 3
30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Any clues??


Petro

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Petro,

The wording here is specific for a purpose. The Jews already knew God and had faith in God, but they rejected Christ. The Jews' justification will be BY FAITH IN CHRIST.

The Gentiles were heathen and walking in darkness with Satan. They didn't know God, nor did they have faith in God. The Gentiles' justification will be THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST.

Jesus Christ is THE CHRIST, the LORD AND SAVIOUR for all, and the ONLY WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE.

Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT!

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

Mark 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
KJV

Matt 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
KJV
Acts 15:7-11
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
KJV

Is it scriptue we value or dogma?

Who is the apostle to who, Peter to the gentiles and Jews, Paul to the gentiles and Jews. One eventually more so to the Jews and one more so to the gentiles. They both preached and taught Christ to both. But what they both taught and preached was the one gospel of Jesus Christ. They were not divided, there was no division. Paul corrected Peter when He seperated himself from the gentiles because of the Jews. Peter and Paul both preached saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as did all the apostles and others.

Paul and Peter would probably be upset with people today caring about who they apostled to rather than who they were apostles of.

 Amen   Ollie,  AMEN   Worth repeating so i did  ;D

Oklahoma Howdy to Ollie and Reba,

Here's another example of semantics.

Is it:

to argue?

for argument?

UM?, it seems as if they say the same thing, but maybe it is worthy of debate.

Maybe we could change the question. How about:

Which is the longer word, argue or argument?

UM?, but it has the same root word, maybe that could be debated. I guess we could debate form, tense, and usage.

I think when we all got to the end it would seem silly, and it is.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

By these standards is person starting this thread silly? and all those who respond? Or only those who see scripture in a light different then anothers who may agree wiht the poster? What of most threads? If detailed discussion of scripture is not to ones liking why "belong" to forum?

 One could simply post a thread then lock it no arguement no semantics.  Post like the one above closes thought and responces I would ask  is that  warrented? and why?

So i see a statment of  agree with me or dont post  is that  what you want Tom?  You as a moderator can  say to me in an open forum dont post if you dont agree with me and i will  remove the forum from my favorites and be gone. Please Tom be stright forward, dont beat around the bush. IF you truly dont want an oposing view in "your" forum say so directly.


I am not sure of  who is who around here and am sending a copy to admin.

 Re:Who Is Your Apostle? I do (not) see how this report  works  but  i am trying to report  what i term as heavy handedness by  Tom the moderatior. The offending post is at the  Who is your apostle thread. Please in public form respond.


This is the note i sent to the (report site) i did  make  spelling corections and  added the word NOT.

Oklahoma Howdy to Reba,

I got your complaint. There was nothing harsh or heavy handed about the simple statement I made. It's an argument over nothing, simple as semantics. It's really kind of sad that you would get upset over someone pointing this out.

Love In Christ,
Tom

To you it may well be a arguement of semantics. To me it is a discussion of  dividing of Gods people.  I do not think HE wants HIS own divided. that is my  opinion you are surly welcome to yours. Saying the word of God is sematical goes clear back to the garden.  A little leaven goes a long way.

1 Cor 1:11-13
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
KJV

Not trying to do a one off and end debate here, but it seems to me rather than there being 2 choices, there is really only one.

My Apostle is Christ who is sent from the father.

John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(NIV)

This is who I choose.

Grace and Peace!

 Way cool Tim !

Oh dear...I have just a few things to say here, in love, but possibly pointed.

A4C - When I first read this post, I thought "I follow Christ."  Semantically, the apostle sent for my benefit would be Paul.  I am a Gentile.  But I must ask this brother - to what benefit is this question asked?  To what form of edification?  

Guys, I really think that sometimes we fail to think before we post, myself included.  This post reeks of such an approach.  Reba and Ollie have jumped on the very thing that struck me at first, even though I did understand the semantical point.  Now, in defense of a very real truth, they have become the object of discord.  We are going to argue this point!  But why?  Are we not Christ's?  Are we not His followers?  Paul was sent for my benefit - but did he bleed for me?  Did he take my sins?  Am I his, or is he mine?  No.  Christ is, was, and did.

My point is simply this: we need to begin building each other with our posts.  Yes, there will always be those who disagree, and will argue every point posted, but our posts can be for the benefit of the reader.  Was this truly beneficial?

I myself only have "ONE" Apostle, and he is Paul.

There are 2 choices. Peter and the 11 or Paul. Peter was sent to Israel. Paul was sent to the Gentiles. Peter preached a coming kingdom. Paul preached a leaving body (rapture). Peter preached works for salvation. Paul preached grace for salvation. Peter says keep the law. Paul says you cannot keep the law. Peter says don’t eat catfish. Paul says eat all things. Peter says meet on Saturday. Paul says meet on Sunday. Peter preached you must be water baptized. Paul preached you do not need water baptism. Peter preached sell all you have and God will take care of you. Paul preached if you do not work you do not eat. Peter preached the cross as a curse to Israel. Paul preached the curse removed. Peter never says he is the pattern for the Gentiles. Paul says he is the pattern for the Gentiles.

Who is your apostle? Until the rapture of the church – Paul is.

AMEN!!!!

"Grace & Peace"

Brother Love :)

Slight nitpickiness here, but...


Peter was sent to the Jews.  His message was valid.  Christ preached the same message to the same people.


Chapter and verse?  Peter was an apostle to the Jews, not an accursed non-believer.  He did not preach a works based salvation.  Peter, like every Jew, Paul included, had issues with dropping the Law.  For Paul I believe it was easier, as he had made the Law his salvation.  Paul saw the sharp contrast and readily accepted putting it away.  The others, though understanding what salvation was, and preaching that gospel accordingly, still hung on to practices that were habit.  Peter liked his hamburgers too!  This is why Paul "withstood him to the face."  Peter was saying one thing and practicing another.  He was acquiescing to the Judiazers - not promoting them.


Paul said all things were lawful to him, but that if eating meat caused his brother to offend, that he would eat no meat.


Peter was obedient to the great commission given by his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Paul practiced the very thing you say he did not preach.  Here's an interesting point: as baptism has no salvific grace whatsoever, what then is the point?  Why then was it so prominent in Jewish culture, but not so prominent in Gentile culture?  Circumsion was the outward sign of the old covenant.  Baptism is the outward sign of the new covenant.  No grace.  Just identification.  Peter and Paul were in accord on this matter.  Perhaps you should follow suit?


Peter preached sell what you have and take care of your brothers and sisters in Christ.  It is God Who provides for need, so why hoard treasures unto yourselves?  Paul preached we must work, so that we might have that with which to give.  Unity, yet again.


The Law stated:


Peter preached:


and again:


And to whom did Peter preach this message?  Cornelius.  A Gentile.  As for Paul:


Now I could be wrong, but it appears that Peter preached Jesus was hung on a tree for our sins, and Paul preached that the very curse of being hung on a tree was one Christ took upon Himself to remove the curse of the law for us.

There are blanket statements being made ignorantly to support a very valid truth - Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.  But Paul was never sent to be followed, rather to be an exemplary follower:


He pointed constantly to Christ, through his example and through God's word.

One more time:

I myself only have "ONE" Apostle, and he is Paul.

There are 2 choices. Peter and the 11 or Paul. Peter was sent to Israel. Paul was sent to the Gentiles. Peter preached a coming kingdom. Paul preached a leaving body (rapture). Peter preached works for salvation. Paul preached grace for salvation. Peter says keep the law. Paul says you cannot keep the law. Peter says don’t eat catfish. Paul says eat all things. Peter says meet on Saturday. Paul says meet on Sunday. Peter preached you must be water baptized. Paul preached you do not need water baptism. Peter preached sell all you have and God will take care of you. Paul preached if you do not work you do not eat. Peter preached the cross as a curse to Israel. Paul preached the curse removed. Peter never says he is the pattern for the Gentiles. Paul says he is the pattern for the Gentiles.

Who is your apostle? Until the rapture of the church – Paul is.

AMEN!!!!

"Grace & Peace"

Brother Love   :)

P.S. Thanks Brother Allinall :)

Your most welcome my brother!  But how can you say "Amen" to things that go against scripture?  ;)

Jesus Christ is my Apostle (though I don't actually own Him).
Hebrews 3:1
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

We should not, and I do not, identify with only one of the seventeen followers of Christ named Apostles because we are warned against that.  I identify with the message of the Gospel expressed by all seventeen and those that followed them.

1 Cor 1:11
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided?  was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I am mindful of the message of the Gospel expressed by all seventeen, and those that followed them, as contained in their instructions; as directed by the Scriptures.

2 Peter 3:1
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

So I can be a fitting member of the Church

Ephesians 2:19
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

There are not 2 choices. The Jews did not choose Peter, the gentiles did not choose Paul, and we are not encouraged anywhere in scripture to choose, so why add something that is not written?

Peter's or Paul's? Your post seems to say two ways to Christ. One for Israel and one for the gentile. Yet Paul says the two are one in Christ though faith in one gospel in one Jesus Christ.

Peter did not set any self patterns but did set God's pattern for the gentiles:
Acts 15:7Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

Actually you make two major mistakes in your analysis, in my opinion.

First it is not so easy and simple.  

Yes, Paul was commissioned to go to the gentiles, but it was Peter who went to them first after a revelation from God in a dream that they were not to be seen as unclean.  Peter was also the first to give them the gift of the Holy Spirit, not Paul.  So it is not so certain that Paul is to be favored, if we are even to favor either which I believe we are warned not to do.

Second, to further complicate matters, your claim that God commissioned Paul is not supportable by scripture.  The only place in scripture that mentions who sent Paul out to the gentiles is in Galatians and it is Peter, John and James who commissioned him or at least allowed him to proceed on his ministry.
Gal 2:9
9And when James,  Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
 

Ollie now you need to read (Study) Acts chapter 10

In my opinion, these type of non-answers help no one and are demeaning to the poster by implying that he has not studied the area you point him to in scripture.  It would be far more helpful to everyone if you were to provide scriptural references and then offer your interpretation of those verses.  But ducking the question as this post does helps no one.  I think you owe Ollie an apology.  I know I certainly would not want to be treated or ignored as he has been by you.

unlike you I believe the Word of God will teach both you and Ollie. Now dust off your Bible and go to the book of Acts, find chapter 10 and then study it.

Have a nice day ;D

Acts 10

10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8 And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
KJV

Through Paul God has revealed HIS HEAVENLY CHURCH. The kingdom has been postponed. There is no salvation by the works of the law. All who will be saved must look to Him, who is seated in the Heavenlies, as the Head of the Body. They must believe that, “By grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.”

No meats, drinks, divers baptisms, Sabbath days or blood sacrifices now, Only “that if thou shall confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shall be SAVED.”…”So then FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing BY THE WORD OF GOD.” (Romans 10:9,17). For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into ONE BODY, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, weather we be bond or free, and have been made to drink into ONE SPIRIT.”

Surely the water baptism of the Jewish Church are now replaced by the ONE BAPTISM of the SPIRIT OF GOD. Paul, “For Christ sent me NOT TO BAPTIZE BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL, not with the wisdom of words, less the CROSS OF CHRIST should be made of none effect.” (1 Corinthians 1:17).

“Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT even as ye are called in ONE HOPE of your calling. ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all.” (Ephesians 4:3-6).

In Christ, in His Body, “we are His workmanship (masterpiece). created in Christ Jesus, UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10).

Brother A4C,

I can't help but get the impression you are presenting Peter as one who preached a gospel of salvation opposite of that of Paul.  You have clearly stated Paul's conviction, and I thank you.  However, if you could clarify your view on the matter I've just mentioned I'd be most thankful!  

AMEN!!!

Through Paul God has revealed HIS HEAVENLY CHURCH. The kingdom has been postponed. There is no salvation by the works of the law. All who will be saved must look to Him, who is seated in the Heavenlies, as the Head of the Body. They must believe that, “By grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.”

And AMEN!!!

Brother Love :)

Brother Michael:

Your statement about who commissioned Paul fails to take into account Acts 9:6-22 and Acts 22:1-21. Since Jesus of Nazareth is indeed God, and He Himself commissioned Saul ["asked for"]and called him Paul ["little"] expressly for that purpose, there should hardly be any question about Paul's commission: "And He said unto me, Depart; for I will send thee far hence unto the gentiles" (Acts 22:21).  Paul reiterates his authority and commission more than once throughout the NT.

However, as to the question "Who is your apostle?"  we are treading on dangerous ground when we depart from Scripture itself, for we are expressly told in the Word of God that ALL BELIEVERS (ALL SAINTS, THE WHOLE CHURCH, THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD) "ARE BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATION OF[ALL] THE APOSTLES AND [ALL] THE PROPHETS, JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF BEING THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE..." (Eph.2:20). Since God includes all the apostles, we must also do so.

However, men today who claim the same status as the 12 apostles of Christ, and call themselves "apostles" are simply false apostles, deceitful workers.  The marks of a genuine apostle (as distinct from a disciple or follower of Christ) are revealed in Acts 1:21-22. Even though Joseph Barsabbas Justus and Matthias were qualified, Paul was "a chosen vessel". Thus we hear no more about Matthias after Acts 1.

So then, who indeed is our Apostle? The answer is found in Hebrews 3:1 -- "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider THE APOSTLE AND HIGH PRIEST OF OUR PROFESSION, CHRIST JESUS..."

The ultimate Apostle or "sent One" from God is none other than His only begotten Son. He in turn sent out the 12 apostles (Paul being the 12th, Judas being a "son of perdition"), and now He sends forth His church into the world by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10

 1.  There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
 2.  A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
 3.  He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
 4.  And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
 5.  And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
 6.  He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
 7.  And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
 8.  And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
 9.  On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
 10.  And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
 11.  And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
 12.  Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
 13.  And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
 14.  But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
 15.  And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
 16.  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
 17.  Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
 18.  And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
 19.  While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
 20.  Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
 21.  Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
 22.  And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
 23.  Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
 24.  And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
 25.  And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
 26.  But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
 27.  And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
 28.  And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
 29.  Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
 30.  And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
 31.  And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
 32.  Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
 33.  Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
 34.  Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
 35.  But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 36.  The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
 37.  That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
 38.  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
 39.  And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
 40.  Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
 41.  Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
 42.  And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
 43.  To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
 44.  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
 45.  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 46.  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
 47.  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
 48.  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 2

 1.  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2.  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
 3.  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
 4.  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 5.  And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
 6.  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
 7.  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
 8.  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
 9.  Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
 10.  Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
 11.  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
 12.  And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
 13.  Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
 14.  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
 15.  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
 16.  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
 17.  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 18.  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
 19.  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
 20.  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
 21.  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 22.  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
 23.  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
 24.  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
 25.  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
 26.  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
 27.  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
 28.  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
 29.  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
 30.  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
 31.  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
 32.  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
 33.  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
 34.  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
 35.  Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
 36.  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
 37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 39.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 40.  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
 41.  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
 42.  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
 43.  And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
 44.  And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
 45.  And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
 46.  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
 47.  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Jesus: about Saul/Paul to Ananias:



Acts 9:15.  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

"(Paul being the 12th, Judas being a "son of perdition"),"


Judas was replaced with Matthias.
Acts 1:26.  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Paul was also called, but not as the 12th.

 Romans:1.  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Romans 11:13.  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

1 Corinthians 1:1.  Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God,.....


 [ Corinthians 15:8.  And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
 9.  For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
 10.  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.


 Galatians 1:1.  Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;).....

Galatians 1:17.  Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus....


 Galatians 2:8.  (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)








 

 

And I [Paul] thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. I Timothy 1:12-16

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, Romans 16:25

Pauls Gospel is my Gospel, and none of you can find this Gospel in the Old Testament of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John ;D

Have a nice day ;D

What do you think?

Is Paul all he claimed to be? The bible indicates that he is. Paul writes in his defense the following : 1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

What do you learn from Paul? 1. We have a completed revelation of God to man. 2. We understand that eternal life is a free gift not of works of any kind. 3. We learn that Israel IS set aside. 4. We learn that the Body Of Christ is God's agency today. 5. We learn not to live our lives based on the circumstances around us. 6. We learn to rightly divide the word of truth. 7. We learn total and complete forgiveness. 8. We learn the true value of the cross. 9. We learn of the pretribulational rapture of the church. 10. We learn that the law is a curse not a blessing. 11. We learn that the religion of the world is a religion of works. 12. We learn that if anyone, without exception, teaches any other gospel than the gospel of grace, they are under the curse of God.

So.. what do think?

That is both an amazing and a disturbing statement. There is only ONE GOSPEL and that is the same from Genesis to Revelation. The OT is the NT enfolded, while the NT is the OT unfolded.  To teach a dichotomy between the OT and the NT is to teach error.

The Gospel was preached to Adam (Gen. 2:15 see Gal. 4:4-5), to Abraham (Gen.22:18 see Galatians 3:16), and to all the prophets. It was even preached to the nation of Israel in the wilderness: "...all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea... and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them; and that Rock was Christ...But with whom was He grieved forty years?... so we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief... FOR UNTO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS UNTO THEM, but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it (1 Cor. 10:1-4; Heb, 3:17-4:2).

Paul is telling us in Hebrews quite plainly that the same Gospel that is recorded in the NT was preached to Israel in the OT, and salvation has always been by grace through faith in the blood of Christ and His finished work of atonement. While the animal sacrifices pre-figured the Lamb of God, they did require faith, and it was BY FAITH that "Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous [by imputation]" (Heb.11:4).

There is only ONE GOSPEL, just as there is only "one Body, ...one Spirit... one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all" (Eph. 4:4-5).  To divide the Gospel is to contradict God and His unity.

Certainly Paul was given the fullest revelation of the Church and its relation to Christ, but the Gospel was always and will always be the same -- "For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:9).

Did Paul Ever Preach A Kingdom Gospel? (PART 1 of 2)

Doug Dodd s.b.g. – Berean Bible Church – Edgewater, Florida

The Church That Preaches What The Bible Teaches

Preaching The Grace Of God - From The King James Bible - Dispensationally Delivered

 

Introduction

Due to the transitional nature of dispensational overlapping it can sometimes be difficult to tell where one age ends and another begins. This is especially true of the book of Acts. The book of Acts is very well named because it is a dynamic book where things are changing rapidly and often without a great deal of detail. The book of Acts can be roughly divided between the diminishing of the nation of Israel as God's agent for salvation and the grafting in of the Gentiles.

In other words Israel is set aside in the book of Acts and the Gentiles receive "favored nation status". Gentile salvation would now come through the church the body of Christ and not through Israel.

However this transition did not happen overnight but covered as much as fourteen years.

When Paul is converted he begins going "to the Jew first" to "provoke" them to "emulation and jealousy". This Jew first provocation ministry is sometimes seen as Paul preaching the "gospel of the Kingdom" to Israel and the "gospel of grace" to the Gentiles. We will see in this study that Paul never preached any other message than the gospel of the grace of God to Jew and Gentile.

_______________

 

Paul and the Kingdom Gospel

Before we begin we better give a few brief (very brief for me) definitions.

Definition: Gospel of the kingdom = The message preached first by John Baptist, then the Lord Jesus Christ, then the 12 apostles. The basic details of this gospel include:

Water baptism for entrance into the kingdom
Repentance i.e. change their thinking about who the Lord Jesus Christ was
A future, literal, visible, earthly, Davidic Kingdom with Christ sitting on the his throne in Jerusalem.
The fulfillment of the promises made unto the patriarchal fathers
This is a works oriented, short account, Mosaic law system
References: Mark 1:4-5; John 1:31, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19-26, Gen 15:5 &ff., Mat 19:28 & ff., Mat 25:31-34, Luke 1:32… etc., etc,. etc..

 

Definition: Gospel of the grace of God = The message given to the apostle Paul the apostle to the Gentiles in the dispensation of the grace of God, kept secret until revealed by the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

The basic details of this gospel include:

Salvation apart from Israel
Salvation apart from the law of Moses
Salvation apart from works of any kind
Water baptism is not a part of the message of grace
Justification is …
Based in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ
In his death, burial and resurrection
Immediate
Free
Secure
 

REFERENCES: 1 Cor.1:17, Eph. 2:8,9, Romans 11, Romans 4:5, Romans 3, Eph.1:13-14 etc., etc,. etc..

 

The point we intend to defend here is Paul never preached the gospel of the kingdom as is contended by some.

Now the study …

--------------------------------

Paul gets saved in Acts 9
In Acts 9:20-22 Paul preaches "immediately" in the synagogues - but what does he teach?
Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Acts 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

 

He teaches…

Christ is the Son of God - This is information that any Old Testament Christ rejecting Jew would need to hear before he could be given any gospel… we will see more of this in chapter 13 when we get there. This is not information exclusive to the kingdom gospel.
He confounds the jews - How? By proving Christ is the son of God. Again this in NOT kingdom exclusive information but information that any Old Testament Christ rejecting Jew would need to hear before he could be given any gospel - kingdom or grace.
Proving that this is very christ - Same comments as above.
 

Paul goes to Jerusalem next

Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. 28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem. 29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

 

As I have stated before and will continue to state, there is only ONE GOSPEL. Let's look at Scripture to see if the allegations stated below are ALL true:

The basic details of this gospel include:
Salvation apart from Israel  -- FALSE
Salvation apart from the law of Moses -- ALWAYS TRUE
Salvation apart from works of any kind -- ALWAYS TRUE
Water baptism is not a part of the message of grace -- FALSE
Justification is …
Based in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ -- TRUE
In his death, burial and resurrection -- TRUE
Immediate -- TRUE
Free -- TRUE
Secure-- TRUE ETERNALLY"

So let's look at what is not true:

1. "Salvation [is]apart from Israel"

Salvation never was "in Israel" but always "in the LORD".  However if we teach that spiritual Israel  (called "the remant" by Paul in Romans 11:5) is somehow different from the Church, then let us take note of what Paul says to Gentile believers in Rome (Rom 11, the entire chapter, but focusing on verses 2,5,17 and 24):God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew...Even so then AT THIS PRESENT TIME also there is A REMNANT according to the election of grace... And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou [Gentile believer] being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM, partakest of the root [Christ] and fatness of the olive tree [the Holy spirit], BOAST NOT AGAINST THE BRANCHES, But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee... for if thou [Gentile believer] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these [saved Jews] which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree [all the redeemed of Israel]?"

Again, Paul reminds us in Ephesians 4:11-22 that we who are Gentile believers have been brought into "the commonwealth of [spiritual] Israel" and "the covenants of promises" and that we are not to make a distinction between saved Jews and saved Gentiles. So salvation in NOT APART FROM ISRAEL, but redeemed Israel and redeemed Gentiles are all one before God -- "the household of God".

Again in Hebrews 12:22-24 we are told that all believers are "come unto Mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT [OT saints], and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel".  Paul is primarily addressing Jewish believers in Hebrews, yet this epistle is to every believer in every age.  We are all ONE, and Abel, Noah and Abraham will not be in a separate compartment while Jews and Gentiles since the resurrection of Christ are in another. In fact, in Hebrews 11 [the "faith chapter"] Paul brings everything into perspective by concluding: " And these all [OT saints] having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT (vv.39-40).

2. "Water baptism is NOT a part of the message of grace"

This is nothing but FALSE DOCTRINE,and contradicts the teaching of the Lord Himself.  While the water of baptism cannot save us, water baptism by immersion is commanded by the Lord and is a MUST for every believer, not as a rite of entry into a local assembly, but as an act of obedience and public witness to his or her conversion.  In fact, according to Mark 16:16, SALVATION AND WATER BAPTISM ARE INSEPARABLE:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, BAPTIZING THEM in the name of the Faher, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt 28:19).

"...Go ye into all the world, and PREACH THE GOSPEL to every creature.  He that BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk. 16:15-16)

"Then Peter said unto them [Jews], Repent AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch [Gentile] said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?... and they went down BOTH INTO THE WATER both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him" (Acts 8:35-39).

"And immediately there fell from his [Saul's] eyes as it had been scales; and he received sight forthwith, and arose, AND WAS BAPTIZED" (Acts 9:18).

"And they [Paul and Silas] said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house... and he [the jailor] took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes, AND WAS BAPTIZED, HE AND ALL HIS, STRAIGTWAY" (Acts 16:31-33).

Paul gives us the fullest teaching on water baptism in Romans chapter 6, so to allege that "water baptism is NOT a part of the message of grace" is to teach false doctrine.

Neither Jew nor Greek, but one in Christ Jesus with the promise of eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus given by the grace of God.

A4C, How did you ever arrive at such false conclusions as the ones you preach and teach in this thread?

In the words of Paul to the churches of Galatia:

 Galatians1:8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

In the words of Peter, to them that have obtained like precious faith, ( not Jews, not gentiles, but them having obtained like precious faith ), concerning Paul's epistles:


 2 Peter 3:15.  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
 16.  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
 17.  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Thank you Sower for your comments on this matter! Very scriptural brother, and I am in agreement.

A4C,

I think you may need to go back to the scriptures more, and to Doug Dodd a bit less.

Ambassador, I can see they cannot understand, maybe you should put this on hold. I wll send you a message.

Brother Love :)

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Sower,

Many would completely disagree with you about water baptism, including me. I have no intention to argue or debate the matter with you, nor do I desire to break fellowship with you because of the disagreement. This argument and debate is all over the board. I understand and respect your opinion.

I'll simply give you a brief idea about where I stand and why.

Water baptism is a ceremonial Jewish ritual done by man, a shadow of things to come.

There is one baptism, and it is NOT done my man, rather by the Holy Ghost. This was spoken of many times and fulfilled when the Holy Spirit was revealed to mankind. Men do baptism dozens of different ways, and none of them are the one baptism. The one baptism is by the Holy Ghost, NOT man.

Brother, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. You've got the last word, as I don't desire to argue.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Unless John the Baptist was not telling the truth in Jhn 1:33, there would be reason not to believe his testimony, concerning what God told him.

Jhn 1:
33  And I knew him not: but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Any water baptism performed by any man, could hardly be claimed to be fulfillment of John's words.

While water baptism, can be seen as a commandment to his apostles by the Lord, it does not replace the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Even circumcision performed with human hands is not in view in the OT, but circumcision of the heart, done without human hands in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col2:11)

And the only Baptism that matters is the one spoken of by Paul at;

Col 2
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Now, someone can make the claim, this happens, when one is submerged in the water of the baptismal pool at church, but this is not supported by scripture, because the emphasis is not in the act of baptism, but in believing;


He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16)

Many are baptized and DO NOT BELIEVE GOD's TESTIMONY CONCERNING HIS SON

It stands to reason if;

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,....
(Eph 4:4-5)

The physical act of water baptism, is not IT.............

Blessings,

Petro

I have removed my previous post, in answer to ollies post #57, since I saw a major problem, that when considered more carefully in the lite of the passage of 1 Cor 15:5-9, my post was merely reduced to an opinion, which is error.

I had always viewed 1 Cor 15:5, as the eleven counting Matthias tom fill out the twelve.

But as I lay in bed last night prior to dozing off, meditating on the events of the day, and going over the scriptures which excited me, I realize, that verse 5, could not have included Matthias, because the matter of replacing Judas had not even been considered as of yet, and clearly Paul at verse 5 is speaking of the chronology of the Lord's appearance to the disciples after his resurrection, ending with verse 8.

I am presently considering the passage carefully, and see that I need to reconcile scripture with scripture concerning this matter.

Perhaps a thread inviting the sharing of scriptures on who the twelth apostle in 1 Cor 15:5 is, would help clarify this matter.

If it not Matthias, it could only be Judas..

Any comments??





 

Hi Petro,

I have seen this question posed somewhere else, I think with the suggestion that Jesus appeared to Judas some time before Judas took his life... don't know if I'm crazy about that idea.

Another possibility I suppose could be that "The Twelve" was used more in the sense of a title than a count of those present. For example, the members of the Swedish Acadamy (you know, the mob that gives out the Nobel prize), are called "The Eighteen". This title remains the same even when one of the members is missing, kicks the bucket, or whatever...

In the NIV the word "twelve" in this verse is capitalized, although there is no footnote explaining why.

Perhaps Paul was including Matthias as one of the twelve in 1 Corinthians 15:5 because he was an apostle when Paul wrote the epistle to Corinth and Matthias had witnessed the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This being one of the qualifications for replacing Judas as an apostle.
 So with Judas gone and Matthias in Paul included him in his epistle and said twelve had witnessed the event as the eleven plus Matthias had witnessed the resurrection.
It could not be Judas could it? Did he not hang himself before Christ was resurrected? I don't think Paul was including Judas as one of the twelve at this point in time, but Matthias.

Just some thoughts on it.

Acts1:   20.  For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
 21.  Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
 22.  Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
 23.  And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24.  And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
 25.  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
 26.  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.


I Corinthians 15:3.  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
 4.  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 5.  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:


The twelve at the time of Paul"s writng were the eleven and Matthias. The eleven and Matthias had seen Christ after the resurrection.


 

Its plausible and this is the way I understood it, but what really struck me, and what I had'nt considered was the chronological sequence of His appearance at 1 Cor 15, first to Cephas then the twelve

If you stretched it as you say, then he could very well been speaking of himself, but what clears this up is the next two verses, when Paul says'

6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

At the end of the first day He (Jesus) appeared to all of the disciples including the apostles, Thomas was the only one lacking at this meeting (John 20:18-24), also see Luke 24:13-51.

It  wasn't until eight days later that he appeared to the them a second time, and this time Tomas was present.  (Jhn 20:24-28)



1 Cor 15:5-8, in view here is before Acts 1:20-26...

By this time Judas was dead, I am sure of it, for this reason.

If Judas was present at the end of that first day when Jesus, appeared to them at Jerusalem, then it could very well be speaking of Judas, but, the apostles were there when Judas delivired up Jesus, it is doubtful  Judas would have returned to the disciples or apostles after his deed. (lk 24:31)

He threw the coins into the temple and repented himself and
tried to return the money to the chief priests, because they condemned an innocent man.  (Mat 27:3)

4  Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5  And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went out  and hanged himself.

This is very interesting.....


Yes, but what is the preplexing verse, which confirms Thomas was missing on that first meeting at the end of the first day, is Luke 24:33, look at the verse closely;

33  And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

It should have read, and found the ten....

Thomas was missing according to Jhn 20:19-24.

It is hard for me to believe that Judas would have been here at the first meeting when Jesus appeared unto them.

At this occurance Matthias, was one of the disciples, not yet an apostle counted as one of the twelve.



Blessings,

Petro


 

Did Paul Ever Preach A Kingdom Gospel? (PART 2 of 2)

He Teaches…

In the name of the Lord Jesus - We are still not on Kingdom only ground.
 

The first indication of the content of what Paul preaches in the synagogues.
VERSE: Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

COMMENT: Paul goes to Antioch in Pisida and into the synagogue.

 

VERSE: Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

COMMENT: Paul, as Stephen did in Acts 7, recounts Israel's history for them - pointing out their pattern of unbelief.

 

VERSE: Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed (David's) hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

COMMENT: Paul now begins his argument of proving "the messiahship" of Jesus Christ. Again this is information that a Jew, during this period, must receive before he can be saved - under either gospel.

 

VERSE: Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

COMMENT: Paul appeals to John Baptist - a man most of Israel, religious or not, feared as a prophet. John Baptist points out the Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah.

 

VERSE: Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

COMMENT: Paul now appeals to kinship and Abraham (his faith) and the fear of God as an argument for a hearing - but still no kingdom gospel is given.

 

VERSE: Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

 

COMMENT: Paul recommends the word of God to them. Do not make the same mistake as your fathers. Jesus is VERY Christ.

 

VERSE: Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

COMMENT: 2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: - Paul's perspective of the resurrection is different than Peter's. Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Peter would say Christ was raised to sit on David's throne… But Paul does not take the kingdom route here… just wait and see.

 

VERSE: Acts 13:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. :32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

COMMENT: Watch closely now… Paul has just quoted the same passage that Peter quotes in Acts 2 but Paul draws a different conclusion - a salvation by grace conclusion NOT a kingdom conclusion. Notice the verses to follow.

 

VERSE: Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

COMMENT: This is not a kingdom message… this is the message of GRACE! GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS AT CHRIST'S EXPENSE! Under the kingdom gospel Israel cannot have their sins forgiven until the Lord Jesus Christ returns to set up his kingdom… But Paul here is offering "the forgiveness of sins…" NOW according to the tense of the next verse!

 

 

VERSE: Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

COMMENT: Not only is Paul offering "real time" forgiveness but also liberty from the law of Moses!!! This is not kingdom ground!! This is grace ground.

 

 

VERSE: Acts 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

COMMENT: You missed him when he spoke on Earth you Jews… do not miss him again as he speaks from heaven!

 

VERSE: Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

COMMENT: When the Jews were gone… Here we see the final steps towards the ending of the earthly ministry of Christ and the full weight of the gospel of the grace of God coming to full power. Paul later says… Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

 

VERSE: Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

COMMENT: Want to know what Paul preached to the Jews in the synagogues? He preached two issues.

The Lord Jesus Christ - whom you killed and God raised - is MESSIAH
Salvation by grace
 

Conclusion

It is not a safe practice to build doctrine based on the book of Acts alone because it is a transitional book. It is better to zoom out - so to speak - and view the big picture. Paul was - is - the apostle to the Gentiles. He preached the gospel of the grace of God. He did not preach the gospel of the kingdom. When Paul preached to the Jews he "proved" to them first of all that the Lord Jesus Christ was Messiah. He did not offer them the kingdom but did offer them real time salvation and freedom from the law. Paul did have a ministry of provocation to Israel but he never offered them the kingdom.

Did Paul ever preach a kingdom gospel - unequivocally NO. Paul preached grace in the dispensation of the grace of God.

 

One more time:

Did Paul ever preach a kingdom gospel - unequivocally NO. Paul preached grace in the dispensation of the grace of God.



Grace & Peace

Bro. Tom:

I am quite surprised to read the above statements from one who is otherwise well-versed in the Word of God. If indeed water baptism is merely a "Jewish ritual" then what are you going to do with the express commandment of the Lord in Matt. 28:18-20 and Mark 16:15-18? Are you saying that the Lord Himself commanded believers to continue a mere Jewish ritual? God forbid. He commanded His disciples to baptize, without in any way minimizing or setting aside the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Even the baptisms of John the Baptizer were no "mere Jewish rituals" but had tremendous spiritual significance for Jews who trusted God before Pentecost, and were according to the will of God.  This was a "baptism unto repentance" (Matt. 3:11).  Since Christ was the sinner's substitute, He fully identified Himself with repentant sinners in water baptism. That is why our Lord went to John to be baptized and commanded him: "Suffer it to be so now: FOR THUS IT BECOMETH US TO FULFIL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Matt. 3:15).

Also what are you going to do with every instance of water baptism after Pentecost? Are you going to tell us that the apostles were simply practicing error? When Peter went to the home of Cornelius and the Holy Ghost "fell upon" the Gentiles there, here is what Peter said, and what we all must give heed to: "Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid WATER, that these should not be BAPTIZED, which have received the Holy Ghost [baptism of the Holy Ghost] as well as we? AND HE COMMANDED THEM TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord..." Acts 10:46-48.  Had you been present there with Peter, would you have told him "No, this is merely a Jewish ritual Peter, and totally unnecessary"?

Scripture itself refutes your contention that there is only ONE baptism -- there is only one Holy Spirit baptism (1 Cor. 12:12-13; Eph. 4:4-6) but there are TWO BAPTISMS in Scripture.  Thus Paul speaks of "the doctrine of baptisms" [plural] in Hebrews 6:2, which includes both water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is a supernatural work of God the moment a sinner is saved (Titus 3:5-7). Believer's baptism by immersion in water symbolizes his or her death ,burial and resurrection with and in Christ (Rom. 6:1-10; Col. 2:12-13), In these scriptures Paul brings both baptisms together.

It is not my purpose to argue but to reiterate what all believers have believed since Pentecost, but if you are going to set aside a foundational doctrine of Scripture, then the burden of proof rests upon you.  Please show us all how and why water baptism has been set aside by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Sower,

I realize, your post was not addressed to me, but since this is an issue which affects all,  please indulge me with a thought or two;


So is John's Baptism in water, a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, counted as one with the one commanded by Jesus,

If not then you have three.

If yes, then it is only symbolic as BEP has stated with which you agree, since you state this very thing further into this, reply.


This is a matter open to debate I suppose, clearly he is not delegating His perojative of Baptizing with the Holy Spirit at all to the Aposltes, at Mk16:16 , neither does He expressly empower them to impart the Holy Spirit to anyone, who believes..

Suppose he is speaking of water baptism only, afterall the apostles could never baptize with the Holy Spirit


No argument here, I agree, water baptism is symbolic of the one true baptism with the Holy Spirit..

It is important to remember how it was the gentile believers received the Holy Spirit.

If ever there is a chronology given it is at Ephesians 1;

12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Now I have a question, when are those who believe baptized, before they believe or after?

Or does it matter, at all?? If it is before or after??



Blessings, Petro

A4C,

You said;


There is only one Gospel, though it is called by many names, nevertheless, it is the same Everlasting Gospel


Paul received it by revelation of Jesus Christ, but it was exactly the same one the Apostles preached.  

Gal 2
2:1  Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2  And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Notice what Paul says at;

Gal 1
8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Even Peter preached the same gospel;


1 Pet 1
9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10  Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

In your opinion...........

Is there a difference between the gosple Peter preached and Paul preached??


Petro

was paul one of the 12 apostles?

NO!

Brother Love :)

So is John's Baptism in water, a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, counted as one with the one commanded by Jesus,...If not then you have three.
Bro Petro:

You're right, and therefore John's baptism is not included in Christian baptisms. John's baptism unto repentance was for Israel (Acts 13:24). In fact, Scripture reveals that those 12 at Ephesus who had been disciples of John were presented with the Gospel by Paul, who then baptized them "in the name of the Lord Jesus" and laid hands upon them so that they received the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 19:1-7). In this passage, water baptism and Spirit baptism are shown side by side.

In Matt. 28 and Mark 16, it is very clear that the Lord is speaking about water baptism and  how it is to be administered. All the accounts of the baptism of those who believed given in the book of Acts are accounts of water baptism [unless stated otherwise]. It should be obvious that since God the Holy Spirit baptises believers into the Body of Christ, this is not something delegated to any man.

Now I have a question, when are those who believe baptized, before they believe or after?Or does it matter, at all?? If it is before or after??
Those who believe are baptized by the Holy Spirit at the same time that they are born again or born of the Spirit. Water baptism follows immediately on the heels of this. Salvation, regeneration,  the baptism by the Holy Spirit, the forgiveness of sins, the justification of the believer, the sonship and heirship of the believer, and the gift of eternal life are all at one and the same time -- at the new birth: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He SAVED us, by the WASHING of REGENERATION  and the RENEWAL  of the Holy Ghost; which He shed on us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that BEING JUSTIFIED by His grace, we should BE MADE HEIRS according to the hope [promise] of ETERNAL LIFE. " (Titus 3:5-7).

The order does matter, since the Roman Catholic Church teaches erroneously that the baptism of an infant saves its soul, and many Protestant denominations also baptize babies.
However, the order in which God places these events 38 is given in Acts 2:38 and 41:

1. The Gospel is preached (Acts 2:22-36)
2. Hearts are pricked (Acts 2:37)
3. Repentance is the first requirement (Acts 2:38) and babies cannot repent
4. Faith is the second requirement (Acts 2:36) and babies cannot exercise faith
5. The receiving of Christ as Lord and Saviour is the third requirement (Acts 2:41) and this produces the new birth (Jn. 1:12-13)
6. Water baptism immediately follows (Acts 2:41) and all believers become part of a local assembly while they have already been placed in the Body of Christ at their new birth.

According to Scripture, there is no gap between the new birth and the water baptism of the believer. Even Saul the persecutor (later Paul the apostle) was baptized as soon as he received his sight and was filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 9:17) within 3 days of his conversion, although Ananias was extremely reluctant to approach this "dangerous" man.

I do NOT agree with you, I will NOT go over everything, but I will ask you What was ISRAEL to REPENT of? Please Read Acts chapter 2.

Brother Love :)

I do NOT agree with you, I will NOT go over everything, but I will ask you What was ISRAEL to REPENT of? Please Read Acts chapter 2.

Brother Love  
=====================================
Good question Bro

Maybe I am a bit shallow minded here, but you are not implying that Israel is sinnless are you?  To me Peter is telling them to repent of their religious confidence and put their faith in the one true saviour.

I have tried, but I really do not understand the purpose of this debate.   Clearly all the Apostles were appointed by Christ.   Their writtings inspired by the holy spirit.  This is evident alone by the fact that the 4 gospels were written many years after christs death and ressurection, and that the holy spirit enabled them to recall Jesus' very words after so much time had passed.

If anyone feels enlightened enough to explain why any christian should choose one Apostle to follow rather than accepting the entire word of God that points to Christ as our salvation, I am all ears.   Whether or not I would choose to believe it or not depends on the rest of Gods word.

Grace and Peace

Brother, you don't need to search the rest of God's word. why not just believe what Paul himself had to say:

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?"
OK?

Cephas is Peter and Paul is ... Paul. Right??

So why on earth are we still seeing people claiming to follow Paul... when they are doing the opposite??!!?

Just to make myself clear, (and I do know what you meant) but I assure you that I do not subscribe to picking and choosing Apostles.   ;D  I was simply saying that taken as a whole, I have not seen where scripture suggests we do it, and I think anyone else would be hard pressed to prove it does say this.

Grace and Peace!

Oklahoma Howdy to 2nd Timothy,


Brother, I don't understand either. I think the intent of the first post could be stated simply:

Who was commissioned of God to be the Apostle to the Gentiles?

I'm positive there was no intent to suggest that God's children follow anyone other than Christ.

The answer to your question appears to be argument, and argument won.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Brother Love:

Coming to your question regarding what was Israel to repent of, is it not obvious from Scripture that they were to individually repent of their personal sins, including the sin of unbelief? "And there went out unto him [John] ALL THE LAND OF JUDAEA, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river Jordan, CONFESSING THEIR SINS (Matt. 3:6; Mk. 1:5).

The Jews (esp. the Pharisees and Sadducees) were proud of their Jewishness and their ancestry from Abraham (Matt. 3:9) so they were exhorted by John to "bring forth fruits" as evidence of repentance (Matt.3:8). John knew that the religious leaders of the Jews were hypocrites at heart so he did not hesistate to call them a "generation of vipers" (Matt. 3:7).To those who were sincere about their repentance, John exhorted them to compassion, honesty, contentment, non-violence, non-extortion, and no false witness (Luke 3:10-14).

WE MUST KEEP IN MIND THAT JESUS THE MESSIAH [YESHUA HA MASCHIACH] WAS SENT TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL FIRST, AND JOHN'S BAPTISM WAS IN THIS CONTEXT.

After the rejection of Christ by Israel, John's baptism would be superseded by Christian baptism, as seen in the Great Commission. If you have a disagreement, it it not with me or others who believe what Scripture teaches.  Your disagreement is with God. Today, in God's eyes, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile after Pentecost, and Romans, chaters 2-5 makes this quite plain. So all are exhorted to "REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED" since "HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED" shall be saved.

"Now I have a question, when are those who believe baptized, before they believe or after?

Scriptural example shows baptism after believing. Philip says the eunuch may be baptized if he believes with all his heart.
It almost seems a command , believe, be baptized. Stressing  the fact that one cannot be baptized if one does not believe.


Acts 8:36.  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
 37.  And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.


Acts 2:37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (the moment of believing for those at Pentacost listening to Peter)

 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

All those assembled listening to Peter believed first and ask what to do and Peter told them, "Repent, and be baptized".......



"Or does it matter, at all?? If it is before or after??"

Believing is what brings one to be baptized. Being baptized would not bring one to belief. There is no point to baptism before believing because faith would be absent from the heart.
The heart must believe first and then baptism according to scripture.

Acts 2:41.  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:; and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


 Acts 8:12.  But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
 13.  Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.


Acts 9: 17.  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
 18.  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.


Acts 18: 8.  And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.



Is there a scriptural example of being baptized before believing? I only find examples of believing then being baptized.


Ollie  

Ollie,

I read your  post, and see it as you have explained it.

Good points, with verses no less.

Sower,

Here is another question;
 
Do You see,  Johns baptism as a diferent form of water baptism than the one performed by the apostles which was  NOT commanded by Jesus. (Jhn 4:1-2) or was it??

It is important to remmeber that John testified, concerning the significance of his baptism, notice his own words;

Jhn 1
29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

As for the twelve, you refer to;

And this was the message that the twelve of Acts 19, were to believe (not only they, but ALL that come to FAITH in GOD)

Notice the verses;

Acts 19
1  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6  And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7  And all the men were about twelve.

First allow me to put verse 2, in its proper context, as the KJV, has rendered this verse in such a way, that wrongly implies that the reception of the Holy Spirit takes place subsequent to salvation.  The scriptures clearly teach that the reception of the Holy Spirit is a work of Grace which imedeately seals the sinner upon coming to Saving Faith in Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:8-9)

Unless placed in its proper context, verse 2, opens the door to the teaching, that one must first be baptized in water in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

The ESV, gives verse 2, as follows;

And he said to them, "Did you recieve the Holy Spirit when you believed?"  

which, renders a version more closely to the Greek-English Interlinear NT Version;

2  he said to them, [The] Spirit Holy did you receive , having believed?

Now I see that you subscribe to this very teaching, so therefore we agree, since you said previously, when posting your comments to BEP; ( I suspected this but wasn't quite sure)


you continue;


Amen, this is the one baptism spoken of in Eph 4:4-5, just as there is One God and One Lord, the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, is the One that seals ALL believers into the Body of Christ, all other forms of baptism are symbolic of the real One.


verse 5, though the Word does not say it, but these men who were pricked in their heart "were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

There willingness or better stated their eargerness to obey, is evidence of their Saving Faith in Jesus Christ.


You go on to say;


While I agree with you  concerning the Catholic churches position and other denominational institution abusing this ceremony,

I must point out that of the four distinct times the the order of events leading up to reception of the Holy Spirit is different in each case, where believers received Salvation ( I am refering to Acts 2 whereby the Spirit was poured out on believers (and the scripture is silent on whether they were re-baptized), Acts 8, when the Spirit was given to the Samaritans throught the laying on of hands by Peter and John, Acts 10, at the household of Cornelius, in Joppa, they received the Spirit as Peter preached Jesus to them.
 
And here where these men were baptized in water, receiving the Spirit at the laying of hands from the apsotle Paul.

Here at Acts 19, the order of events is:

Faith (pricked in their hearts to obey)
Re-baptism
Laying on of the Apostle's hands
Reception of the Holy Spirit


While this is true then, it is not imperitive that water baptism be imediate, today, since the symbolic occasion of it does not have the same impact water baptism had in the days of the early church, (please do not get me wrong, Christians ought to get water baptized as soon as possible, but it is not do or die), as a public declaration did it those days, what is important is that the person being baptized believe, it is better to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance for the remission of sins, that it is to put on a show, and them throw a baptismal party.
 
This my opinion on the matter.


Blessings,
Petro

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I wanted to make one more comment about water baptism. This subject has been debated all over the board.

For those who wish to see a recent and fairly thorough debate on this subject, see:

Is Water Baptism Needed For Salvation? The Bible says no. (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1651)

This is a very interesting subject for every Christian. I would first like to say that I have no problem with someone wanting to be Baptized in water. If someone thinks that will somehow strengthen their faith or confirm their faith, that's fine. If a man or woman has been baptized in water, maybe they belong to Jesus and maybe they don't. If a man or a woman has been BAPTIZED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, THEY BELONG TO JESUS, have been bought, have been paid for, and have been delivered.

It is interesting to note that the strongest advocates of water baptism will quickly agree that water baptism does not save you and does not wash away your sins. It, in fact, is a symbol only. One could be water baptized 1,000 times and not be saved. The strongest advocate of water baptism would also agree that the BLOOD OF JESUS is what washes away the sins of a new child wanting to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour.

Another fact is very plain and simple: If a person is baptized by the Holy Spirit, they are saved, and there is no question they belong to Jesus.

Here's something else that is simple food for thought and Biblically sound. Is there a difference between (1) Believe (2) Believe and be Baptized? Yes, there is. Satan believes, but Satan is not praying for forgiveness of sins and requesting that Jesus Christ come into his heart as his personal Lord and Saviour. Belief that is FAITH in Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died on the cross for the sins of man and arose from the dead as a RISEN SAVIOUR also results in the new believer realizing they are a sinner, confessing their sins, and asking Jesus Christ to come into their heart as their personal Lord and Saviour. This is far from the belief that Satan would have that Jesus simply exists. This is the belief and faith Jesus answers, and the new believer is immediately BAPTIZED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. The cleansing of sin is by the precious BLOOD OF JESUS, not by water in a man's ritual.

Brothers and Sisters, if you truly belong to Jesus, you have been Baptized by the Holy Spirit. If you have also been baptized in water, I love you. If you belong to Jesus and have not been baptized in water, I love you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I agree 100% Brother,

Thank You, you have made my day.

Grace & Peace

Brother Love

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Love,

You are most welcome Brother.

I'm also positive that you have been purchased by Jesus under the following terms:

The purchase was final.
No credit - full price paid in advance.
No layaway plan (immediate delivery).
No refund, exchange, or return.
You have been delivered (transaction final).
Jesus owns you.
I love you.

I pray that most or all involved in this thread are bought and paid for possessions of Jesus.

Thanks be unto God for HIS unspeakable GIFT!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Answer this,What does God do when you are Baptized by water?

N-O-T-H-I-N-G

Brother Love :)

AMEN,

Blessings,

Petro

The work of the cross is God’s offer of life…

Baptism is our acceptance.

I regret that I was WATER Baptised, and I really, really Regret Baptizing others.

Grace & Peace

Dividing of Gods people, was this a Joke?

Why?

The Bible teaches of many baptisms, however, there is only one baptism recognized by the Word of God for this present dispensation of grace. That is the spiritual baptism by which the believer, when he/she trusts Christ as his/her Saviour, is identified with the Lord in His death, His burial, and His resurrection. This spiritual baptism is also the means whereby the believer is given victory over sin (Rom. 6:1-5; I Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:11).

Grace & Peace

Paul didn't seem to think so:

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you."

And what was it that was causing the division:

"What I mean is this: One of you says, I follow Paul; another, I follow Apollos; another, I follow Cephas; still another, I follow Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptised into the name of Paul?"

There is disagreement when some try and pass off mans teachings as thought they be commandments of God, this should cause division, that is, separation from those who want to walk in the lite of theGods  Word from those who think they are walking in the lite.

If one must comprimise, what the scriptures teach clearly, then he ought not to claim the name of Christ.

What we have been discussing here, is that water baptism is clearly a symbolic ceremony, observed as a commandment ordained by Jesus, it does not save, it is a public declaration of repentance towards sin, and a desire to be counted as one with Christ child.

While some would have you believe, water baptism produces the Holy Spirit, which is evidenced by signs and other gifts being excersized, it starts innocently put quickly progresses into something which becomes a faith works gospel.

If there is an argument concerning who is the apostle one follows over another, at this point and time in history, can simply be considered childish arguments, between those that still drink the milk of the gosple.


Blessings,

Pet

Only "ONE" Apostle for me, my Apostle Paul. No milk for me :)

Brother Love :)

I wonder what Paul would say?

Something like this maybe:

"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of .... power."

This is a repeat, I posted this on another thread. I did NOT want you to miss it. I am sure you will enjoy it.

In Acts chapter two Luke tells us "that there were dwelling at Jerusalem JEWS, devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (verse 5), along with Peter's words: "Ye men of Judea (verse 14), "Ye men of Israel" (verse 22), and "Therefore let all the house of Israel know" (verse 36), and "Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (verse 38).

Note that four times Peter, at Pentecost indicated that he was addressing only Jews, or Israelites. Are you a Jew living in the age of Israel? Then this is for you! But if you are a Jew or a Gentile living in the Dispensation of Grace then what Paul had to say is for you.

Paul was the Apostle of the Gentiles. We need Eph. 2:8-9. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God," So the problem is that Peter says "I am speaking to you men of Israel," while in Romans 11:13 Paul clearly states "I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gntiles"

The great Pentecostal Confusion comes from millions of Gentile believers blindly following their leaders in listening to and heeding Peter's message instead of listening to Paul.

Grace & Peace

I think Paul himself answered this in 1 Cor 1 some where around the  12 verse.

1 Corinthians 1
11   For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12   Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14   I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15   Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

The Distinct Message Given to the Apostle Paul

1 Tim 1:1-13 (KJV)
I Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully-,
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Three times Paul uses the word MY

Romans 16:25 (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to MY gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Romans 2:16 (KJV)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY gospel.
2 Tim 2:8 (KJV)
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to MY gospel:

The Resurrection is the Power of GOD!

Note that later on in Acts, Peter was shown that his "Gospel for the Jews only" idea was incorrect. What you are saying is the opposite - that his gospel was for the Jews only! Peter came to his senses when God showed him his misconception. Why not you?

When interpreting scripture the audience to which the speaker/author directs his words is of secondary importance. If that was the case then Paul could hardly have been your apostle, because he wasn't writing to you. Listen to what Peter says about prophecy of scripture:

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

In other words, if we focus on the thoughts of the prophet himself instead of what the Holy Spirit is indicating to subsequent generations then we will miss what God is saying to us.

Paul uses the word MY three times. That's true. But what did he mean by it?

If we look at what Paul wrote in its entirety it is clear that he is not speaking about having a gospel completely separate and different from Peter's or anyone else's gospel. If that were the case then these people would be eternally condemned.

What Paul is referring to is the revelation of the mystery of the gospel which he received in greater detail than the others.

"25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to MY gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, "

And what is this mystery?

"This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

Those who have difficulty recognizing the distinctive character of Paul's apostleship and message should consider the following cumulative evidence:

Paul sets forth his apostleship and message in his inspired epistles:

Romans 2:16 "my gospel"; 16:25 "my gospel"; 2Tim. 2:8 "my gospel";

Gal.2:2 "that gospel which I preach among the gentiles"; Gal. 2:7 "the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me." Rom. 11:13 "I am the apostle of the Gentiles". Gal. 1:11,12 "But I certify you brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man , neither was I taught it,but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." [read also Eph. 3:3; Titus 1:3]

Paul went up to Jerusalem "by revelation" and communicated to the 12 apostles "that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles", and they recognized his unique apostleship and publicly acknowledged him as the new apostle to the Gentiles, agreeing to henceforth confine their own ministry to Israel. Gal. 2:7-9.

Note that while grace was indeed manifested in previous dispensations, Paul was the first to refer by divine inspiration to "the dispensation of the grace of God, which is given me to you-ward" Eph.3:2, and to "the ministry which I have received of the Lord Jesus , to testify the gospel of the grace of God" Acts 20:24. This claim was never made by any before Paul, nor did any of the other apostles write about or even mention the "dispensation or the gospel of the grace of God."

Why on earth is this question relevant?  Both had wonderful contributions to Christ's Church, with St. Peter as the head.  Why must you choose on or the other?

GOD, who is Himself a "Father Figure", has always provided a human "Father Figure", a "Chief Shepherd", a visible leader on earth to act as a liaison between Himself and His people. In the Old Testament, His Chief Shepherds were Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and David, to name a few. In the New Testament, the "Father Figure", and "Chief Shepherd", of GOD's people, the Church, is Saint Peter. His successors down through the centuries are affectionately called, Papa, or let us use the Italian word meaning the same as father, the Pope.

"And Pharaoh (the King) said unto Joseph (a Father Figure), 'For as much as GOD has shown you all of this, there is none so discreet and wise as you are: You shall be over my house, and according to your word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than you'. And Pharaoh said to Joseph, 'See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt'. And Pharoah took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain around his neck..."
Genesis 41:39-42
Keys have always been used as a symbol of power and authority for the Jews. He who has the key can open the locked door. He who has not the key remains locked out. The one who has the key has all authority over who enters through the locked door. If He shuts (locks), no one can open (unlock). If He opens (unlocks), no one can shut (lock).



"And to the angel of the Church at Philadelphia write: Thus says the Holy One, the True One, he who has the "Key of David". he who opens and no one shuts, and who shuts and no one opens: I know thy works. Behold, I have caused a door to be opened before thee which no one can shut, for thou hast scanty strength, and thou hast kept My Word and hast not disowned My Name." Rev 3:7-8

The "Key of David", what is the significance?

---------------------
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call My servant Eliakim the son of Helcias, and I will clothe him with thy Robe, and I will strengthen him with thy Sash, and will give thy Power (authority) into his hand; and he shall be as a FATHER (the word 'Pope' means 'Father') to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And I will lay the Key of the House of David (the symbol of primacy) upon his shoulder; and he shall open and none shall shut; and he shall shut and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a peg in a Sure Place (the Papal Office), and he shall be for a Throne of glory to the house of his Father. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his Fathers house, diverse kinds of vessels, every little vessel,  from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music." Isaiah 22:20-24

"My servant" means "Faithful to GOD". "Eliakim" means "GOD will establish". Here we have a figure who is faithful to GOD and someone whom GOD will exalt. In several verses in Scripture, whenever this "Eliakim" is mentioned, he is also shown to be "Over the Household", 2Kings 18:18, 2Kings 18:37, 2Kings 19:2, Isaiah 36:3, Isaiah 36:22, Isaiah 37:2.
In Isaiah 36:3, he is described as being "Over the House". The Pope is certainly "Faithful to GOD", and he is "Over the House of GOD", the visible Church on earth.

So what do we have here? We have an OFFICE, a SASH, a ROBE, a THRONE, a KEY, a PEG, and a SURE PLACE.

The House of David is the Davidic Kingdom. David is a figure of Christ.

The OFFICE is the Papacy, the Holy Father, the Pope, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the House of Judah, (the Church), the Vicar of Christ, the Bishop of Rome, the successor of Saint Peter, the visible head of the Catholic Church on earth.

The SASH, The ROBE, the THRONE, and the KEYS are symbols of his authority.

The SASH is what separates the prime priest from the other priests,
"Therefore, to the various expert workmen whom I have endowed with skill, you shall give instructions to make such vestments for Aaron as will set him apart for his sacred service as My priest. These are the vestments they shall make; a breastpiece , an ephod, a Robe, a brocaded tunic, a miter, and a SASH." Ex 28:3-4.
"He (Aaron) shall wear the sacred linen "Tunic", with the linen drawers next to his flesh, gird himself with the linen Sash and put on a linen Miter (the Pope wears a Miter)." Lev 16:3

The ROBE symbolizes his authority as The Bishop of Rome, the Supreme Pontiff, the High Priest of the Visible Church on earth.
"As an olive tree budding forth, and a cypress tree rearing itself on high, when he put on the ROBE of Glory, and was clothed with the perfection of POWER. When he went up to the Holy Altar, he honored the vesture of Holiness. And when he took the portions out of the hands of the priests, he himself stood by the Altar. And about him was the ring of his brethren: and as the cedar planted in mount Libanus, and as branches of palm trees, they stood round about him, and all the sons of Aaron in their glory. And the Oblation of the Lord (the Holy Eucharist) was in their hands before all the Congregation (Church) of Israel. And finishing his service on the Altar, to honor the offering of the Most High King, he stretched forth his hand to make a libation, and offered the Blood of the grape (wine transformed into the Blood of Christ)." Sir 50:11-16
"Now therefore we make thee this day High Priest (Vicar of Christ) of thy nation, and that thou be called the King's friend (and he sent them a Purple ROBE, and a CROWN OF GOLD (Miter)), and that thou be of one mind with us in our affairs, and keep friendship with us." 1Macc 10:20

The THRONE is the Chair (Seat) of Saint Peter from which the Vicar of Christ proclaims to the whole world, infallible statements on faith and morals.
Moses, the Leader of GOD's chosen people had a Seat of Authority.
"The Scribes and the Pharisees have sat on the Chair of Moses." Matt 23:2
"This Propitiatory (Mercy Seat) you shall then place on top of the Ark. In the Ark itself you are to put the Commandments which I will give you. There I will meet you and there, from above the Propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the Ark of the Commandments, I will tell you all of the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites (Ex-Cathedra)." Ex 25:20-22
"He took the Commandments and put them in the Ark; he placed poles alongside the Ark and set
the Propitiatory upon it." Ex 40:20
"...the Lord spoke to Moses and said to him, "Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he pleases into the sanctuary, inside the veil, in front of the Propitiatory on the Ark; otherwise, when I reveal myself in a cloud above the Propitiatory, he will die (GOD will speak to His chosen Visible Leader on earth only, His Vicar)." Lev 16:2
"When Moses entered the Meeting Tent to speak with Him, he heard the voice addressing him from above the Propitiatory on the Ark of the Commandments, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him...(Ex-Cathedra)" Num 7:89
The Mercy Seat thus becomes the protector of the Ark and its contents. In the Ark were the Stone Tablets handed to Moses, Aaron's staff, and the Manna from Heaven. These are prefigurements of the New Ark of the Covenant, the Blessed Virgin Mary, as she carried within her womb, the Word of GOD, the Power of GOD, and the Body of Christ, the Manna from Heaven.

The KEYS are symbolic of His Authority, and over the Binding and Loosening powers of sin, and as a symbol of discernment.

The PEG is symbolic in Hebrew tradition, as the main tent peg into which all other lines ran.

The SURE PLACE, of course, is The Vatican in Rome, the Papal Office.

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"With him is wisdom and strength. He hath counsel (the Magisterium in conjunction with the Holy Spirit) and understanding (discernment). If he pull down, there is no man that can build up. If he shuts up a man, there is none that can open (Papal authority, Rome has spoken, the matter is settled)." Job 12:13-14
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"And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this 'Rock' I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give THEE the KEYS of the Kingdom of Heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." Matt 16:18-19

CONTINUED

Jesus Christ addressed Peter and Peter only in these two verses. He gave Peter alone, the KEYS to the Kingdom of Heaven, and the power of "Binding and Loosening" of sins, or if you prefer, the "Sacrament of Reconciliation". Clearly, when Jesus addressed Peter only, and at the same time gave him a name change from Simon to Peter, he had appointed Peter as the "prime" Apostle. Later in Matt 18:18, Jesus gave the power of "Binding and Loosening" to all of the Apostles. After Jesus had risen from the dead, He appeared to all of the Apostles and again gave them the power of "Binding and Loosening" in John 20:22-23.

To further strengthen the "Primacy of Peter" Jesus addressed him only, in John 21:15-17, when He commanded him to "Feed My Sheep". As another example, Jesus commanded Simon-Peter to strengthen his brethren in Luke 22:31-32.
Peter acknowledged his primacy, when at the Council of Jerusalem, he stood up and said, "Brethren, you know that in early days GOD made choice among us, that through MY mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe." Acts 15:7
Peter's statement was singular in that the truth of the Gospel would come from the primacy of the Catholic Church, and that primacy is the Papacy.


"But if thy brother sin against thee, go and show him his fault, between thee and him alone. If he listen to thee, thou hast won thy brother. But if he do not listen to thee, take with thee one or two more so that on the word of two or three witnesses every word may be confirmed. And if he refuse to hear them, appeal to the CHURCH, but if he refuse to hear even the CHURCH, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican. Amen I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound also in Heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed also in Heaven." Matt 18:15-18


Here, right out of Holy Scripture is an outline for a system of appeal. How do you appeal to the Church unless there is a system of arbitrators pre-existing in that Church? To whom does one appeal in civil life? We appeal to a higher court of our government. What do you suppose would have happened if our founding fathers had not set up a system of checks and balances; a system with lots of laws, but no 'hierarchy' to interpret those laws for us? What would happen if our founding fathers wrote our constitution and made no provision for a Supreme Court to have the final say on interpretation of the laws within it? What would have happened if they left it up to the people and said, "Interpret the law of the land as you see fit?" Immediately, there would be conflicts and chaos and splits in the unity of the country. Isn't this exactly what our Protestant brothers and sisters did to the 'Law of GOD', the Bible? The reformers rejected the authority of the Catholic Church and immediately there began conflicts and chaos, infighting within their ranks, and splits in the Body of Christ which number over 28,000 in Protestantism today.


Where is the 'supreme court' of Protestantism? Who or what is the authority in their ranks which arbitrate disputes in Bible interpretation? The prefigurement of final authority of such matters was recorded in detail in the Old Testament, and it fits perfectly with Papal authority and the Magisterium of today in the Catholic Church.

"The next day Moses sat in judgment for the people, who waited about him from morning until evening. When his father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people he inquired, "What sort of thing is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone while all the people have to stand about you from morning till evening?"
Moses answered his father-in-law, "THE PEOPLE COME TO ME TO CONSULT GOD. Whenever they have a disagreement, THEY COME TO ME TO HAVE ME SETTLE THE MATTER (MOSES HAD SPOKEN, THE ISSUE WAS SETTLED) BETWEEN THEM AND MAKE KNOWN TO THEM GOD'S DECISIONS AND REGULATIONS."
"You are not acting wisely," his father-in-law replied. "You will surely wear yourself out, and not only yourself but also these people with you. The task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone. Now, listen to me, and I will give you some advice, that GOD may be with you. ACT AS THE PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVE BEFORE GOD, BRINGING TO HIM WHATEVER THEY HAVE TO SAY. ENLIGHTEN THEM IN REGARD TO THE DECISIONS AND REGULATIONS, SHOWING THEM HOW THEY ARE TO LIVE AND WHAT THEY ARE TO DO. BUT YOU SHOULD ALSO LOOK AMONG ALL THE PEOPLE FOR ABLE AND GOD-FEARING MEN, TRUSTWORTHY MEN WHO HATE DISHONEST GAIN, AND SET THEM AS OFFICERS (CARDINALS AND BISHOPS, THE MAGISTERIUM) OVER GROUPS OF THOUSANDS, OF HUNDREDS, OF FIFTIES, AND OF TENS. LET THESE MEN RENDER DECISIONS FOR THE PEOPLE IN ALL ORDINARY CASES. MORE IMPORTANT CASES THEY SHOULD REFER TO YOU (PAPAL AUTHORITY. ROME HAS SPOKEN, THE ISSUE IS SETTLED), BUT THE LESSER CASES THEY CAN SETTLE THEMSELVES. THUS YOUR BURDEN WILL BE LIGHTENED, SINCE THEY WILL BEAR IT WITH YOU. IF YOU DO THIS, WHEN GOD GIVES YOU ORDERS YOU WILL BE ABLE TO STAND THE STRAIN, AND ALL THESE PEOPLE WILL GO HOME SATISFIED."

Moses followed the advice of his father-in-law and did all that he had suggested. HE PICKED OUT ABLE MEN FROM ALL ISRAEL AND PUT THEM IN CHARGE OF THE PEOPLE AS OFFICERS OVER GROUPS OF THOUSANDS , OF HUNDREDS , OF FIFTIES, AND OF TENS (CARDINALS, ARCHBISHOPS, AND BISHOPS, AS WE HAVE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY). THEY RENDERED DECISIONS FOR THE PEOPLE IN ALL ORDINARY CASES. THE MORE DIFFICULT CASES THEY REFERRED TO MOSES, BUT ALL THE LESSER CASES THEY SETTLED THEMSELVES."
Exodus 18:13-26

Rome has truly spoken.

If Exodus 18:13-26 isn't enough proof, here is another reference which reinforces it.

Moses said,
"I cannot carry all this people by myself for they are too heavy for me. If this is the way you will deal with me, then please do me the favor of killing me at once, so that I need no longer face this distress."
Then the Lord said to Moses, "Assemble for Me seventy of the elders of Israel, men you know for true elders and authorities among the people, and bring them to the Meeting Tent. When they are in place beside you, I will come down AND SPEAK WITH YOU THERE. I WILL ALSO TAKE SOME OF THE SPIRIT THAT IS ON YOU AND WILL BESTOW IT ON THEM, THAT THEY MAY SHARE THE BURDEN OF THE PEOPLE WITH YOU. YOU WILL THEN NOT HAVE TO BEAR IT BY YOURSELF."
Numbers 11:14-17

Exodus 18 and Numbers 11 depict a "type" of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church of today. We see a system of arbitration and a final authority to settle inevitable disputes which arise from time to time. We see a 'type' of the Magisterium in the seventy elders. Rome has truly spoken. The blueprint was drawn in the Old Testament.
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"Now you are the Body of Christ, member for member. And GOD indeed has placed some in the Church, first Apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly TEACHERS (The Pope is the foremost teacher); after that miracles, then gifts of healing, services of help, POWER OF ADMINISTRATION, and the speaking of various tongues." 1Cor 12:27-28

ADMINISTRATION: Management, especially of business affairs. The activity of a sovereign state in the exercise of its powers or duties. This is how one dictionary defines the word.
This is a good description of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, which certainly does include the Pope and the Magisterium, and over 3500 Bishops.

Every government, every corporation, and every institution, has a POWER OF ADMINISTRATION.
The Federal Government has an Executive Branch, a Legislative Branch, and a Judicial Branch.
Corporations have a Chief Executive Officer, a Board of Directors, and Stockholders.
Why then, should the largest and oldest institution on earth, the Catholic Church, not have a Pope, a Magisterium, and thousands of Bishops, all guided in truth by the Holy Spirit?

"If in your community there is a case at issue which proves too complicated for you to decide, in a matter of bloodshed or of civil rights or of personal injury, you shall then go up to the place which the Lord your GOD chooses, to the Levitical priests (Magisterium) or to the JUDGE (Pope) who is IN OFFICE (the Papacy) at that time. They shall study the case and then hand down to you their decision. According to this decision that they give you in the place which the Lord chooses, you shall act, BEING CAREFUL TO DO EXACTLY AS THEY DIRECT. YOU SHALL CARRY OUT THE DECISIONS WHICH THEY GIVE YOU AND THE VERDICT THEY PRONOUNCE FOR YOU, WITHOUT TURNING ASIDE TO THE RIGHT OR TO THE LEFT FROM THE DECISION THEY HAND DOWN TO YOU. ANY MAN WHO HAS THE INSOLENCE TO REFUSE TO LISTEN TO THE PRIEST WHO OFFICIATES THERE IN THE MINISTRY OF THE LORD, YOUR GOD, OR TO THE JUDGE, SHALL DIE (now, Spiritual death). THUS SHALL YOU PURGE THE EVIL FROM YOUR MIDST." Deut 17:8-12

"In this breastpiece of decision you shall put the Urim and Thummim, that they may be over Aaron's heart whenever he enters the presence of the Lord. Thus HE SHALL ALWAYS BEAR THE DECISIONS FOR THE ISRAELITES OVER HIS HEART IN THE LORD'S PRESENCE."
Ex 28:30

Now, just what do these verses prefigure? This is exactly how the Pope and the Magisterium work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit today.
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Now that we have a Church Hierarchy guided by the Holy Spirit, one of their primary duties is to hold periodic Church Councils. These Councils are called in order to define revealed truths in Scripture and to address rising heresy, and other problems of the time. The Councils are attended by the Pope and the Bishops.... And they are Biblical.

"Where there is no Governor, the people shall fall; but there is safety where there is much Council." Prov 11:14

"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes; but he that is Wise harkens unto Councils." Prov 12:15

"Designs are brought to nothing where there is no Council; but where there are many Counselors, they are established." Prov 15:22

"Hear Council, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end." Prov 19:20

"Designs are strengthened by Councils, and wars are to be managed by governments." Prov 20:18

"Because war is managed by due ordering; and there shall be safety where there are many Councils." Prov 24:6

"Take Council, gather a Council..." Isa 16:3

"And that they had made themselves a senate house, and consulted daily three hundred and twenty men that sat in Councils always for the people, THAT THEY MIGHT DO THE THINGS THAT WERE RIGHT. And that they committed their government to One Man every year, to rule over their country, and they all obey one, and there is no envy nor jealousy among them." 1Macc 8:15-16

Benny Hinn is that you ;D

Is there something contructive you would like to add?  I don't know who Benny Hinn is or what you are talking about, but if you have something interesting to add, go right ahead.

Typical born again christian response - avoidance and diversion

Those who have difficulty recognizing the distinctive character of Paul's apostleship and message should consider the following cumulative evidence:

Paul sets forth his apostleship and message in his inspired epistles:

Romans 2:16 "my gospel"; 16:25 "my gospel"; 2Tim. 2:8 "my gospel";

Gal.2:2 "that gospel which I preach among the gentiles"; Gal. 2:7 "the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me." Rom. 11:13 "I am the apostle of the Gentiles". Gal. 1:11,12 "But I certify you brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man , neither was I taught it,but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." [read also Eph. 3:3; Titus 1:3]

Paul went up to Jerusalem "by revelation" and communicated to the 12 apostles "that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles", and they recognized his unique apostleship and publicly acknowledged him as the new apostle to the Gentiles, agreeing to henceforth confine their own ministry to Israel. Gal. 2:7-9.

Note that while grace was indeed manifested in previous dispensations, Paul was the first to refer by divine inspiration to "the dispensation of the grace of God, which is given me to you-ward" Eph.3:2, and to "the ministry which I have received of the Lord Jesus , to testify the gospel of the grace of God" Acts 20:24. This claim was never made by any before Paul, nor did any of the other apostles write about or even mention the "dispensation or the gospel of the grace of God."

Interview with the Apostle Paul

(Questions about the Church)

t must be understood, the apostle Paul died many years ago. This interview, therefore, is hypothetical. The interviewer (writer) will be quoting the words of the apostle Paul s recorded in the King James translation of the Bible. I will try to make all of his statements consistent with the inspired record.

Paul, you need to understand that the questions I will ask will reflect this fact, today there are many organizations called churches in the world. Is this the way it was in your day?
No! As you can read in my epistles, I only needed to address a letter to the church in a given geographical location. I wrote a letter to the church at Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi *1and the church received the letter.


Was it God's intent that ultimately the church would be divided as it is today?
No. Satan is the one that has brought about this condition. There is one body and we are all *2 members of that one body if we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Savior. *3


You use the word "body". Does that word have the same meaning as the word "church"?
The word doesn't mean the same but it is another word that describes the church. The word refers to a "called out people". The church, as I used the term in my writings, is the body of Christ and the body is the church *4. As I was saying, the divisions that are so prominent in your day first began in my day in the city of Corinth. I had to rebuke the church there severely because they were carnal and walking as men. The saints there began to denominate themselves apart and to say they were of me, or Apollos or Cephas. There was one group that even began to say they were of Christ to the exclusion of other saints. This was very divisive and so I rebuked them sharply. *5


Would you rebuke children of God today who take a name to identify themselves and the work they do for the Lord?
Yes, if the name was any name other than the name of the one who died for them. We as Christians should do everything we do in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. *6


Paul, isn't it true though due to our different personalities, ethnic backgrounds, education and family backgrounds we need different churches?
It is true that our different backgrounds would seem to make it necessary to have different churches; but this is not the case. We must remember, when one is saved things happen that make our backgrounds and personalities of little importance as far as the functioning of the church is concerned. One of the purposes of the church is to take those with different ethnic backgrounds, (that is, the Jews and Gentiles) and make them one new man. *7 It is also true that when one accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, old things pass away and all things become new. *8 Something else that is often forgotten, believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are indwelt with the Holy Spirit who guides them into all truth. *9 So you see, while the believer doesn't lose his physical characteristics, his thought processes and spiritual understanding are truly changed, if he will allow the Holy Spirit to guide him.


But, even though we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, people just don't see anything alike, even when reporting on an accident or something that happened right in front of them.
It is true, humanly speaking we can't all see alike. However, we are not speaking of things on the human level but on the spiritual level. The Holy Spirit has commanded us to all speak the same things and to have no divisions among us, to be of the same mind and judgment, and to walk by the same rule. *10 The Christian life is a growing process. So all Christians should be trying to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. *11 If believers would do this, there would not be the divisions among believers that exist in your time.


Paul, there is a saying "Behind every cloud is a silver lining". Isn't the silver lining behind the cloud of sectarianism the fact that by dividing and organizing we can spread the gospel further, faster?
Satan has always been spreading the lie "let us do evil that good may come". In fact, I was accused of saying such a thing which I never said. *12 Satan has raised questions concerning obedience ever since he questioned Eve in the Garden of Eden "yea hath God said". *13 Mankind is alienated from God and physically dying because Eve was convinced what God told them to do and not do could be improved on. In fact the Lord Jesus when he was here on earth prayed for unity among believers because he knew it would give support to the gospel of Jesus Christ. *14 Satan also realized how effective this would be and so, as I said earlier, began to divide Christians very early in the church's history.


I believe it is true, the most productive period in the history of the church were the first few years after it began. Today, the divisions among Christians give the unbeliever a basis to question the authenticity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Let me ask this question, "You are the writer that speaks most about the church, are you the founder or head of the church"?
Let me state emphatically, I am not and no man on earth is the founder or head of the church which is Christ's body. I speak most about the church for three reasons. One, I am the apostle to the Gentiles, and this was a very important office to me. *15 Second, I received by direct revelation the mystery concerning what the Lord is doing with the church today. *16 Third, I was commissioned to complete the written word, revealing God's will and plan for the church which is his body. *17 Something that was unique about my knowledge and ministry is this, I didn't receive my education from those who were apostles before me but by direct revelation from God. *18


If you are not the head of the Church, who is?
Jesus Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. He is the chief corner stone. The church is to be subject to him in everything. *19


Paul, today there are many names describing many churches. What is the correct name for the church? Is there a name all members of the church should use?
Your question seems to indicate a misconception. The church is described by several terms: the body of Christ, church of the living God, church of God and there are others. *20 Members of the church are referred to as saints, Christians and brethren. The church is simply Christ. *21 Members of the church should do everything they do in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Many times the church is described by the geographical location where it is or meets. Members of the church should be careful to never use a name or description to identify themselves separate from other members of the church or to identify theological distinctions. To do so is sin.


Paul, how is it decided who becomes a member of the church which is Christ's body?
All the members of the church are made members by the head of the church the Lord Jesus Christ. This is done by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. *22


Paul, we hear the word "saved" used often. What does this word mean when applied to the church?
To begin with, all of us were born sinners, dead in trespasses and sins. We were alienated from God, out of fellowship or communion with him and needed to be reconciled to him. *23 God of course, recognized this and when we were without hope sent his only begotten Son to die for us. *24 Because of the Lord Jesus Christ, we can be restored to fellowship with God by unearned favor (grace) through faith. *25 Grace is something good we receive which we didn't earn or we don't deserve. Salvation is not something one can work for. If it was, we would have something to boast about. Some people think grace and works are a team that together bring salvation to a person. This was a misconception that was prevalent in my day. Many, like myself had our roots in the Mosaic Law. But works and grace don't go together to get salvation or to keep salvation. Works are a product of salvation. Salvation is received by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the way I was saved. *26 The moment one believes with his heart and calls on the name of the Lord, many things happen: crucified, buried, risen with Christ, sealed unto the day of redemption, baptized into the church, seated in heavenly places, and old things pass away, all things become new. All this is done through the faith of the operation of God. *27

We hope this brief hypothetical interview with the apostle Paul will cause you to study the scriptures noted and come to a fuller understanding of God's plan of salvation and the "church which is Christ's body".


Robert A. Grove
(703)371-3047
P. O. Box 7253
Fredericksburg, VA 22404


*1) 1 Corinthians 1:, Ephesians 1:, Philippians 1: *2) Ephesians 4:4 *3) 1 Corinthians 12:13; :27 *4) Ephesians 1:22&23, Colossians 1:18 *5) 1 Corinthians 1:12, 3:1-4 *6) Colossians 3:17 *7) Ephesians 2:15, Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11, *8) 2 Corinthians 5:17 *9) John 14:17, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 6:19, *10) 1 Corinthians 1:10, Philippians 1:27, 3:16 *11) Ephesians 4:3 *12) Romans 3:8 *13) Genesis 3:1 *14) John 17:21-23 *15) Romans 11:13 *16) Romans 16:25, Galatians 1:12, Ephesians 3:3 *17) Colossians 1:25 *18) Galatians 1:17-2:2 *19) Ephesians 1:22, 2:20, 5:23-24 *20) 1 Corinthians 1:2, 10:32, 12:27, Ephesians 1:1, 4:12, 1 Timothy 3:15, Romans 1:13&7, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Acts 11:26, Galatians 6:18 *21) 1 Corinthians 12:12 *22) Colossians 3:17 ; Acts 2:47, 1 Corinthians 12:13 *23) Romans 5:12, Ephesians 4:18, Colossians 1:21, Romans 3:10, 5:10, 2 Corinthians 5:18, *24) Romans 5:6, John 3:16-18 *25) Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6 *26) Romans 10:13, Acts 22:16, *27) Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12, Ephesians 2:6, 4:30, 1 Corinthians 12:13

Amen Interview with the Apostle Paul Amen

Brother Love :)

I agree.

Who is your apostle? my answer is Paul.

The Crusader

I do not understand this dividing. For it is clearly written in scripture, and if we ignore this we are ignoring God who inspired it:

1 Corinthians 1

1:11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1:12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1:13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1:14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1:15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1:16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

How much clearer can it be, brothers & sisters?

Question for you, how could Paul say this verse if he preached the same Gospel as Peter and the eleven?

1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


Also you should quote a few more verses.

Grace & Peace

Quote more? Why?

To say this is to say the other apostles were not commissioned by God.

Do you believe the Bible was inspired by God?

the Bible was inspired by God?


Yes.  I'm beginning to think the whole world is inspired by God.  Everything.

It's one, whole big grand production.  Hallelujah.  :)  (What's it to ya   ;D)

    :)

"He that is ignorant of Paul's gospel, cannot have certainty of his own salvation nor lead others into assurance Paul is Christ's messenger sent to you and to me by a Risen Christ." By Paul; we know the promise "Which God, That Cannot Lie, Promised Before The World Began!"

Thats some really good preaching. Amen

The Crusader