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I have come up against some pretty nasty women in my time but  recently I came across a group of women who believed Paul was still 'phariseeical' when he wrote the epistles and therefore his words mean nothing.  I agree with every word he wrote.  Especially about women and their place in the church.  And, that a man is head of the house.  I was just wondering if you do too?

God Bless, and Love

Tamara.

To start with, I believe what Paul wrote in the epistle's was inspired by the Holy Spirit. It was God breathed, so I believe what Paul wrote was for us to follow. Now we may not completely understand the word, but it is true never the less.

  My own opinion is this, When we don't agree with the word of God, it is because our carnal nature is in the way. And before anyone jumps on this as putting women down let me say this. We don't understand all the ramifications of what we do. We only see as looking in a glass darkly. The word of God gives us freedom and it does not enslave us. Only in Jesus can we truly be free, and we can only be His disciple if we are obedient to His word.

I do believe what Paul says.  I believe he was an apostle of God and that God spoke through him.  Paul also pointed out to us in some of his letters when he is speaking just his point of view and that the rest is the word of God.

With that being said, I also want to say that we must understand the context of what Paul is saying.  I personally do not believe that Paul means that no women can teach.  JMO.  I believe he was addressing a very particular problem in which women of a particular church where leading believers astray and were practicing un-Christian actions.  We know from other letters that Paul wrote that women were teaching and leading churches (or atleast held high places).  This is what I mean when I say we must make sure we understand who Paul is talking to and why he is saying something.  Especially if he doesn't re-iterate it in other letters.

Also, the part about women being submissive is a tricky doctrine also.  Not just because it's not PC, but because we have to read the rest of it.  From what I understand, Paul (both himself and from Jesus) talk about mutual submission.  Wives are to be submissive to their husbands, but husbands like to overlook the part where it says that we are also to be submissive to our wives.  We are to be subimissive to our employers, government, strangers on the street and family members.  Submissive, does not negate our value as a person in the eyes of God.  In todays culture, 'submissive' means inferior.  Some are so 'submissive', they are proud of it.  That is just as bad.   To be honest, the only way I can be submissive in the way Jesus wants me to, is to submit to Him.  Then we (Him and I) can be submissive to others.  It's nothing I am proud of, cause I could never do it.  

Anyways, Paul does talk about submissivness, but that is a positional thing.  Like there is a boss at work, there must be a positional head of the house. It in no way means the man is more important or superior.  If the man is doing what God is asking, then he won't be a tyrant, but will submit to the wife as well and alway think of her well being and love her to the extent that whatever decision he makes will be with her benifit in mind.  If a man abuses the power, then he is not being Godly.  This of course spawns a different conversation in "what to do when one party is not being Godly".  My point here is that man have abused this doctrine.  My other point is that we must also study what Paul says and not simply take it all on face value.  I can't recall off hand, but it was James or Peter that said that Paul's writing can be hard.  Paul was strong in the faith and was not always about feeding milk to babies.  We have to grow up a little as Christians to understand some of the finer points of his letters.  Some stuff is obvious and easy, some is not so much.


I hope I didn't ramble too much :)

I hope you don't ramble like on other boards....

Hi Romans & Rafter!

Thankyou for your input.  No ramblings, good post Romans!
I have a fondness for Paul's letters.  And, he is the apostle to the gentiles.
And, I do agree that every word in the Bible is the Inspired Word of God Himself.  That's why I agree with Paul and his stance on a woman's place beside her husband. (and not in front)
I also believe a man must love his wife and respect her,and likewise with the wife.  After all, woman was created from man's rib, and not from his foot bone.
The ribs enclose the heart and lungs.  Love and life.
It was also stated that Paul was proud.  I can't see that a man who went through as much as Paul could have much pride left!  I mean, let's face facts here!
The poor guy was off breathing fire & brimstone to get the christians and suddenly, wham!!  There was Jesus Himself!!
If that wouldn't change a person what would??On top of that he was blinded for a time! I won't go into all the rest or I'll be rambling.
Paul stood up for his rights the same as you or I would.  But, I truly believe he was perfectly chosen.  And, I thank God for Paul.  Without his letters, we wouldn't know very much about the Holy Spirit's work in the life of the true believer.
And if a married couple walk with the Holy Spirit's guidance...what can go wrong?
Love...Tamara.

These women are placing their own preferences above God's word because they don't want to submit. So they simply take the parts they don't like and say it isn't God's word. They're probably not Christians, because one of the most basic facts is that the Bible is the word of God. When you think about it, they're taking it upon themselves to determine what is and isn't God's word, thereby making themselves a greater authority than God. I'd find a new church.

Hi Whitehorse!
That is so true!  What they want is for the words of Paul regarding women taken out of the Bible.  I fear for that.  We need ALL of Paul's words as they teach us love and submission.
God is God.  We cannot take a word from the Bible, nor can we add to it.  But, man has a way of tampering with the word of God today.  Paul's words gently guide us in the right direction.  They guide us into love and respect.  He was a chosen Apostle who had not been by Jesus side while alive, but his wisdom has echoed throughout the ages.
I must confess, I have a deep respect for Paul.
This didn't happen to me in any church.  It happened on another "christian" site on the web!
Love...Tamara.

Yes I agree with Paul.  It is important to note that he is referring to the woman's role of teaching men, and needing to be silent.  Not women teaching.  It is also important to note that when he says "in the church" that this isn't only the building and the service.  The word used there is ecclessia.  It refers to the body of believers, not the service time or the building.  Women, hence, are to remain silent in the church in regards to teaching men.  I think sometimes that's missed, and shouldn't be.  *Steps back and prepares to be plummeted*

Well, you certainly won't be plummeted by me All!! I agree entirely.  It is lovely to be guided and taught by a man of God, and seems so natural.
Love..Tamara.

Amen sister!  Fortunately my wife agrees with me!  ;D

Well aren't you lucky!!

I of course believe the bible and the words from Paul.  After all he did write like 2/3's of the NT, but hey, why should we give any credance to him.   ::)

Ithink that women get all caught up in not wanting to submit and totally miss the part where men are to die for there wives.  Women are not given this same command.  Also a woman should only choose a man for a husband if she fully trusts him.  After all the man is to love his wife as Christ loves the church.  That's a whole lot there.

If a women does not trust a man enough to make desicions for her in her best interest, then she should not marry this person.  This leads to my next point which is that people seem to usually marry for reasons based purely on the carnal and not the spiritual.  This will always lead you in the wrong direction.  

Two rules of thumb to me for men and women.  If the woman does not trust the man to be the head of the household it's not a good idea for her to marry him.  You need to completely trust your soon to be spouse.  If the man does not feel that he can make the best desicions for his family and is not willing to die for them, he needs to not move on with marriage.  If either person can't fulfill these two things they are not ready to be married.  Everything else will fall into place if both people are ready and willing to do their role in marriage.

How often do people forget this part of the vows?

To love, honor and cherish:
Though sickness AND in health
    For richer OR poorer
    Till DEATH do us part

If you aren't ready for those lines and ideas marriage is not for you.  I know plenty of people who part because of money and health.  Sounds like they didn't really mean it to me.

I think there's another aspect of the wife's submission.  The man is the one who will answer to God for the actions of his children, as well as for his wife.  He is the responsible head of his family.  While each child and his wife are responsible for their own actions, the man is held responsible before God.  Why?  Because he is the head.  They are to respond to his leadership, as well as his teaching.  I've often said that you can tell the measure of a man by his children.  It is sadly true.  If the children do not serve God, the finger can be pointed to the father.  He may be the best pastor in the world, but he blew it at some point as a father.  

Our former assistant pastor faced this problem.  He worked very hard as a pastor, and as a father - but his boys strayed.  He resigned as pastor to devote himself to his boys and their straying.  I've never had more respect for any man than him and his decision.  It was his responsibility afterall.

I said all of this to say this: women who attempt to take the husbands role in leadership, do so ignorant of this aspect.  Sadly, many do so because the man is also ignorant of this aspect.  

I also believe that submission doesn't mean being tight-lipped!  In my marriage, I rely a great deal on my wife.  She is my help afterall, and not just as a house-keeper (we both fulfill that role btw)!  Many men make decisions without the counsel of their wives to their detriment.  I've often had a certain course laid that I felt was the right one, until I asked her and was made privy to God's leading.  I believe He did so through her and her openness to His leading.  Had I bold-faced decided without asking her, I'd have made a grave error - and would have taken the responsibility for it.

So, the man will answer for his family before God some day - not the wife.  But the man should never deny his wife's help in leading that family.  The decision lies with him, but the decision should be molded by both.

I agree but then to me that falls under making the right desicions as the head.   ;)  That never meant to make them all blindly or without council.  The captain of the ship, as head, makes the final desicions but that doesn't mean he doesn't consult his crew ever.   8)

True, and this is what All is getting at.  He consults the head crew member, his wife.  And that is what marriage is all about, togetherness, love, respect, giving and sharing as one person.  And I believe this is what Paul mean't when he stated man was head of the marriage union.
Marriage is forever together.  The wife walks beside her husband in all matters regarding the welfare of their marriage, children and finances.
And, he is the one to answer to God!  If a wife denies her husband the right to chastise the children ect; and pulls against him, in the end, there is more discord than in the beginning.
Paul's words are a reminder that woman was created from man in the beginning.  God could have taken a bone from Adam's foot and made a woman.  But, he chose a rib.  
The ribcage encloses, and protects the 2 vital living forces of life itself. Heart and lungs.  
Being a wife as in the book of Proverbs is a happy life. And, I believe Father God wanted we women to know what is right in his sight insofar as a woman's role beside her husband.
A good wife is more precious than jewels.  And likewise, a good husband is more precious than gold.
To love, honour and OBEY.  should never be treated lightly.
Paul's words have rung throughout the centuries, but today, many women seem to prefer that some of Paul's words didn't exist.  Why?  

Love...Tamara.

Love it All!!! Love it!!!!!

Tamara...

We must remember that this doctrine of submission applies to all ... to all.  We are to submit to each other, to our bosses, to our government, to all.  As long as it does not require us to negate Christ.  Ephesians 5:21 starts this with "Submitting yourselves one to  ANOTHER in the fear of God" and continues this theme of mutual submission for the next 20 verses or so.  Many people would call Paul a sexists.  That is not his intent.  If we are submitting to one another, and we acknowledge that this does not define our value as a person, then we are living as Christ did.  Through OUR obedience to Him, we pray that others will be blessed, and all Glory will go to Him who accomplishes these things.

Hi Romans!
People HAVE called Paul sexist, and stated that he 'puiffed up with pride'.
But, your posting is so true.  We obey Christ first, then, in time, our husbands who should be obedient and submissive to all authority.  Then, we follow our husbands example.  Oh how many times dis I say to my late husband "I don't know who to vote for! I don't follow these political things!" and he would explain and then allow me to make up my own mind.  After he went to the trouble of explaining in small detail, I'd ask "Who are you voting for?"  He'd tell me and...hahah!
Being a widow now, I miss that guiding hand of love and gentleness.  Of having that trusted shoulder to lean on.  
Father always guides us to the right man if we place our trust in Him completely.
And, he leads men to the right girl too!  
I believe this is what Paul was talking about.  Faith, and trust first in Christ Jesus and Father God.  Then, all things work together for good to those who simply believe  in Father. In EVERY Inspired word, and definitely, in His Love for His children.
This can only bring about good as we have the Fruits of the Holy Spirit.  
And the Fruits of the Holy Spirit working in unity in a marriage  can only bring about a marriage of beauty and quality.  A family of the same.  What can be more beautiful than that?
Love...Tamara.

I once heard a pastor use this aspect of the woman's creation in a marriage ceremony.  He pointed out how that the woman was made, not from a bone from Adam's head so as to rule over him, nor from his foot so as to be held down by him.  Rather she was made from the bone of his side, where she would stand - both to help and to be protected.  I thought that was a beautiful assessment.  Sadly enough, many of us fail to live this out.  We place our wives under our feet by what we expect them to do, or treat them as though they try to be the head, when more times than not, they simply want us to step up.  We even neglect to protect them.  Sure, if someone comes up and tries to harm my wife I'll knock out a tooth or two, but do I do what I can to help her have her time with God each day?  If not, am I truly protecting her?

I ramble.  Just a thought... :)

Sure do.

Brother Love :)

It makes me happy to hear that Brother.  
Whitehorse, a wife must have her space to be with her God alone.  Even if just for a little while.  If not, she is being hampered a little.  
To both of you, as a woman, and a widow, I can say that a woman likes to be led gently, advised and guided.  And...she likes to be loved and shown love by a thoughtful husband.  She doesn't want roses every day.  Or boxes of chodcolates.  She just wants little things which show how much you care.
Just a smile often speaks a million words.
How to handle a woman?  Love her.

Love...Tamara.

It's simply a fact that men and women were created differently. We live in a society where the gifts of women are seen as inferior to the gifts of men. This has resulted in women competing with men for men's roles. This is so sad. Men's bodies are simply stronger than women's. I am not offended by that. I, as a woman, have my own gifts. I believe the intellectual capacities are similar in both men and woman. I personally feel that a woman who doesn't have to prove her intellectual capacities but instead, stands back and allows her husband to shine is showing him real love. That takes strength and humility which I think Paul is talking about. One wonders whether Bill Clinton would have been faithful to Hillary had she shown him this kind of love instead of seeking the limelight.

Oh yeah the Clintons.   ::)  Two people who can't recall anything in court who both got paid millions to write their memoirs.   ::)  I really wonder how acurate the tales will be.   :-X

Heidi....DITTO!

Good point, Saved4.

Yes, Tamarra, I know several christian women who don't like Paul at all.  They ignore or avoid him.

Another chiristian woman I know seems to take it to the other extreme--everything you mention to her is automatically passed on to hubby, and everthing is this submissive thing almost to the point of legalism.  It's very hard to deal with her sometimes, since it comes across rather rigid and wooden.

Paul presents us with a beautiful "ideal".... :)

True Symphony,  and I fear for Paul's letters.  I feel within myself that since the women's liberation movement, women will try to have many of Paul's words for women taken out of the Bible just as they are trying to have the words about homosexuals taken out.
If women lose these words, what do we expect?
Some women love authority.  When Paul told us to submit, he didn't mean for us to be slaves and to act stupid about it.  He mean't for us to look upon our husband's as head of the house and to act sensible in that respect.
A woman was mean't to walk by her husband's side in all matters.
She was mean't to lean on her husband.  To discuss things with her husband, and to love her husband.  To create a happy loving home for him to come home to.  Nice home cooking and a nice warm fire when it's cold.
This type of living creates harmony.  And, Paul told us to be equally yoked.  Harmony creates the equal yoking together of a man and his wife.

I pray that young ones will allow Father God to be in control of their lives and allow HIM to choose their life long mate.  That way, they would be less divorce!

Love...Tamara.

 Paul was a Rabbi,even after he was saved.Rabbi meaning teacher.What Paul told the churches how women should act was how the synagogues said that should act.

              Love,
              curious

What Paul said God said.
Believe It!

Thanks Ambassador. I do believe it.  It's strange too...one of those nasty women fell rather ill recently.  They are all praying for her now...
I add my prayers.  
The words of Our Father are not to be scorned.  What He said...He mean't.  When He chose Paul, He chose a dedicated man.  A man who was willing to go to any lengths to preach Jesus, because he believed.
His story as an apostle is sensational.  His words have reached down to us through the centuries.  But then, Jesus stated "My words shall not pass away."
These words of Paul are as applicable today as they were 2000 years ago.  Both to men, and to women.  
Those nasty women seemed to kick a part of my soul.  Their visciousness and spite was shocking.  And...the moderators allowed it as they seemed just as bad.
I am a widow and live alone because I chose to become more spiritual and to just live with my God.  They knew that...
And...never will I go against the words of Paul nor any other writer insofar as the Bible is concerned.
God is LOVE.  A little part of me is missing now due to all the grief I bore.  But NEVER will I go against the words of Paul.
Now, I feel rather proud of myself!  I actually stood up for Paul and the Words of God in the midst of ravening wolves!
Alone!  Wow!  That's pretty awesome really!


Love...Tamara.