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FAITH + WORKS For Salvation = DAMNSTION!
BY Cecil Spivey

(A STUDY IN JAMES 2)


“Do you believe a man is saved by grace?”


“Yes, certainly, However, works are also essential.”


“ Then you do not believe a man is saved by grace
alone?”


“How can I, when James the 2nd chapter informs us
that “faith without works is DEAD?”


So argued the water-works Salvationist. And so argue all who contend that sinners must submit to physical ordinances and obey the moral laws of God in order to finally, at last, maybe perhaps make it to heaven. When hard pressed to prove there doctrine, they invariably flee to James 2:14-26 for defense. Here all who believe in Christ + works for salvation find common ground.


A CHRISTIAN IS JUUSTIFIED BY GOOD WORKS


But no one can carefully read James 2 and honestly contend that the writer is showing sinners how to be “born again,” how to be saved, how to have a home in heaven! James is simply explaining to Christians brethren how to prove they ARE saved. As we read in vs. 18, “I will SHOW thee my faith BY MY WORKS.” And that is the only way any Christian can show his faith by doing works that only living faith can produce.


ABRAHAM and RAHAB were JUSTIFIED BY WORKS that is, their works proved they had living faith in God. The faith that saved Abraham preceded the offering of Isaac by some 20 years! See Gen. 15:6; Gal.3:6-9; Gen. 22. His offering Isaac PROVED his faith to be perfect for “he staggered NOT at the promise of God through unbelief” – Romans 4:20. Dead faith can have no works! But living faith germinates good works as we have been “SAVED UNTO (or for the purpose of doing) GOOD WORKS.” See Eph 2:10. Note 8:9


GOD WAS JUSTIFIED BY THE PEOPLE


Another use of the word “justified” is found in Luke 7:29, “the people…and the publicans justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.” Neddless to sat, God was not saved by the people, though He was justified by them, for justification as regarding God or man means to declare one (or the other) to be right.


A SINNER IS JUSTIFIED BY BELIEVING


A sinner can be brought into right relationship to God (that is, justified, made fit for heaven) by penitently BELIEVING “the record of God’s son.” See 1 John 5:1-13). No sinner has ever been justified by works, for “the grace of God that bringeth salvation” is opposed to works for salvation, even as Romans 11:6 declares, “IF BY GRACE then is it NO MORE OF WORKS, otherwise grace is no more grace…”God the Father has already provided a sufficient life and sacrifice for our sins through His Son Jesus Christ, whom He has raised from the dead. See 1 Peter 2:22-24; 1 Cor. 15:1-5; 2 Cor. 5:21. Here, then, is God’s plan for saving or JUSTIFYING sinners: “This is the work of (singular) of God, that ye BELIEVE on Him Whom He hath sent.” – John 6:29. For “to him that WORKETH NOT, but BELIVETH on Him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS.” – Rom. 4:5-6. “For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself, it is THE GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boars.” – Eph. 2:8-9. Therefore, being JUSTIFIED (declared right) BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”—Rom. 5:1.


It is clear there can be no salvation for the sinner who, like Cain, has faith in his own dead works rather than like Abel, who had faith in the coming Messiah of God.’


A FINAL WORD: Yes, “the demons also BELIEVE, and tremble,” (vs 19) but nowhere in the Bible are we told they believe on Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They DID believe on Him as their coming tormentor and destroyer. See Matt. 8:29; Heb 2:14; 1 John 3:8. And they also believed “there is one God.” But multiplied millions have so believed and died eternally lost! Believing “there is one God” will not save, but believing on Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour will! John 5:24; Acts 16:31.
 

FAITH - WORKS For Salvation = HEBLLOUND!

LOL ;D

No its:
FAITH + WORKS For Salvation = DAMNSTION!

Are you both purposely mispelling your words?  

I do believe we are looking for hellbound and damnation not hebllound and damntion.

I'm just checking.

You really loved the study :)

Brother Love :)

I like being able to laugh with those I disagree. ;)

I was just hoping you two hadn't gotten all worked up.  Hebllound sounds kind of interesting.   ;)  I don't know about damnstion though.   :-X

(A STUDY IN JAMES 2)


“Do you believe a man is saved by grace?”


“Yes, certainly, However, works are also essential.”


“ Then you do not believe a man is saved by grace
alone?”


“How can I, when James the 2nd chapter informs us
that “faith without works is DEAD?”


So argued the water-works Salvationist. And so argue all who contend that sinners must submit to physical ordinances and obey the moral laws of God in order to finally, at last, maybe perhaps make it to heaven. When hard pressed to prove there doctrine, they invariably flee to James 2:14-26 for defense. Here all who believe in Christ + works for salvation find common ground.


A CHRISTIAN IS JUUSTIFIED BY GOOD WORKS


But no one can carefully read James 2 and honestly contend that the writer is showing sinners how to be “born again,” how to be saved, how to have a home in heaven! James is simply explaining to Christians brethren how to prove they ARE saved. As we read in vs. 18, “I will SHOW thee my faith BY MY WORKS.” And that is the only way any Christian can show his faith by doing works that only living faith can produce.


ABRAHAM and RAHAB were JUSTIFIED BY WORKS that is, their works proved they had living faith in God. The faith that saved Abraham preceded the offering of Isaac by some 20 years! See Gen. 15:6; Gal.3:6-9; Gen. 22. His offering Isaac PROVED his faith to be perfect for “he staggered NOT at the promise of God through unbelief” – Romans 4:20. Dead faith can have no works! But living faith germinates good works as we have been “SAVED UNTO (or for the purpose of doing) GOOD WORKS.” See Eph 2:10. Note 8:9


GOD WAS JUSTIFIED BY THE PEOPLE


Another use of the word “justified” is found in Luke 7:29, “the people…and the publicans justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.” Neddless to sat, God was not saved by the people, though He was justified by them, for justification as regarding God or man means to declare one (or the other) to be right.


A SINNER IS JUSTIFIED BY BELIEVING


A sinner can be brought into right relationship to God (that is, justified, made fit for heaven) by penitently BELIEVING “the record of God’s son.” See 1 John 5:1-13). No sinner has ever been justified by works, for “the grace of God that bringeth salvation” is opposed to works for salvation, even as Romans 11:6 declares, “IF BY GRACE then is it NO MORE OF WORKS, otherwise grace is no more grace…”God the Father has already provided a sufficient life and sacrifice for our sins through His Son Jesus Christ, whom He has raised from the dead. See 1 Peter 2:22-24; 1 Cor. 15:1-5; 2 Cor. 5:21. Here, then, is God’s plan for saving or JUSTIFYING sinners: “This is the work of (singular) of God, that ye BELIEVE on Him Whom He hath sent.” – John 6:29. For “to him that WORKETH NOT, but BELIVETH on Him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS.” – Rom. 4:5-6. “For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself, it is THE GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boars.” – Eph. 2:8-9. Therefore, being JUSTIFIED (declared right) BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”—Rom. 5:1.


It is clear there can be no salvation for the sinner who, like Cain, has faith in his own dead works rather than like Abel, who had faith in the coming Messiah of God.’


A FINAL WORD: Yes, “the demons also BELIEVE, and tremble,” (vs 19) but nowhere in the Bible are we told they believe on Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They DID believe on Him as their coming tormentor and destroyer. See Matt. 8:29; Heb 2:14; 1 John 3:8. And they also believed “there is one God.” But multiplied millions have so believed and died eternally lost! Believing “there is one God” will not save, but believing on Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour will! John 5:24; Acts 16:31.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN & Amen

Thanks for posting this Bro

Brother Love :)

Faith = salvation
Works = reward according to...

Salvation=a gift from God.
Works=result of salvation.

Hey, how about;

Faith = Salvation a gift of God
Works = The result of Salvation to be Judged..

.........and rewarded if mans work abides, if not he shall suffer loss, but nevertheless he himself shall be saved......yet, so as by fire. (1 Cor 3:15)


Petro

I'm so glad to see this thread.  I'm so sick of the occultic practice that you must speak in tongues to be saved (A/G, Pentecostals mostly).  God bless you guys.

Well Put.!!

Ive be to a pentocostal church once,and the way the preacher preaches i like it..I love them to get loud and excited.

Amen Sister, Amen

<:)))><

The war on this forum between works & faith seems to be bewteen those who have born again of the spirit and those who have been told by the catholic church that the leaders of their church are the only ones who have been born again of the spirit. One member said that we're all born again of the spirit, but only the leaders in the church are protected from error. Apparently the Holy Spirit in the rest of us isn't strong enough to "lead us into all truth." It is no coincidence that the ones who believe in works, not faith, are catholics, and the ones who don't are born again of the spirit. It's not their fault. They have been brainwashed by the catholic clergy to think that the catholic clergy is infallible, rather than the Holy Spirit inside of each individual. There will ALWAYS be unity among true born again Christians because we KNOW who our Father is and won't share His title with anyone! The catholics, however are confused about where their loyalties are which is why, on the one hand, they will say they are Christians (just like wolves in sheep's clothing do) but by their words they put their faith in the men in the church and the apostles before they put their faith in Christ. They will deny this vehemently because they know they are SUPPOSED to agree with Jesus. But in reality they look to the church for answers instead of Christ alone.

But it is not their fault. It is the clergy in the church who want them to believe that THEY are infallible and only THEY have the answers, not the spirit of Christ in each individual. This is brainwashing and it works! So many catholics feel so guilty if they disagree with the church that the are not capable of seeing that the church just MIGHT be wrong. No, that can't be! they're God! This kind of brainwashing is so insidious and dangerous which is why I feel the need to speak out against it. It leads people to works instead of grace, to see their own power as stronger than the Holy Spirit, which is actually worshiping themselves more than God. FAITH IS A GIFT OF GOD SO THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST. Anyone who thinks any differently is giving credit to his wonderful nature instead of to God himself, which is idol-worshiping. But it's extremely difficult, if not impossible to break the effects of brainwashing. The only way it can be done, is if God Himself is drawing people to Him instead of to the church.

Where we see Spivey build his own strawman just to knock it down.  How impressed we are when someone builds a purposely weak argument just to make themselves look powerful.


Strawman #1 - Who would ever say such a thing no one teaches works verses grace the issue is works and faith verses faith alone.  Garce underlies all of those options it is not opposed to, nor does it need to be added to as its function is different than faiths, or works, or faith and works, function.



Strawman #2 – The issue isn't grace alone as Spivey wants to make it look, it is the man made doctrine of faith alone that it the issue.  No one who questions faith alone would ever question that for its purpose grace functions alone.


No that is not how the water-works Salvationist argues – it is how Spivey wants to present their argument so he can more easily assail it since a true representation of their argument is unassailable.

That is not ture and you know it Heidi.  You have been corrected many times in your errors of understanding of the Catholic Church such that it is clear to all you have no idea what they teach.  They certainly do not teach that the leaders of the Catholic Church are the only ones who have been born of the Holy Spirit.  Where do you get this drivel - you must make it up.


If you think you can get away from our agreement by not referring to me by name that is just dishonest much like the lies you tell.  If you are going to claim people have said things at least have the courage to quote people instead of behaving like the national Inquirer.


Well what is apparetn to you and your faulty logic is not apparent to others.  This issue has nothing to do with the strength of the Holy Spirit it has to do with the promises as stated in the Bible.  Nowhere does scripture promise to protect each individuals interpretation of scripture from error.  If it did then you would not have the Holy Spirit in you since you have repeatedly errored in your interpretations.


Another lie about the Catholic Church - will you ever stop?  The Catholic Church believes in faith Heidi, and claims it is required for salvation - it is faith alone that they do not accept because it is taught nowhere in the scriptures.


That is because the scriptures tell us to.

1Ti 3:15  But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Heidi,


First, you have never been led to all Truth. You are taking a text out of context here and applying to you personally in the 21st century. This is in opposition to II Pet 1:20-21.
It is in reference to the Apostles as a group. The Apostles did not even receive it individually but as a group. That is why it is taught the same by all apostles. It was entirely given to them and they have imparted it the the faithful of that day and generations have done so to this day. That it has endured and has been keep faithfully by the faithful is a testament to the faithfulness of the Holy Spirit working in Christ's Church, which is His Body.

You constantly say that you are led by the Holy Spirit. You are led only in understanding, not in interpretation. There is a vast difference. It was once given. All of it was once given. The faith, and its practice. It is THE CHURCH WHICH HAS IT, not individuals. The CHURCH IS CHRIST.
Christ is Head and the authority. The Bible is not the authority, but Christ who gave it and its interpretation through the Holy Spirit to the Apostles.


You also keep saying that the difference between us is that we (Michael and I) believe in the Church and that you, in particular, believe in the Holy Spirit. That the Church is wrong based on your interpretation and you are correct. Leaving personalities aside, Scripture clearly says that the Church OF Christ is the only guardian of the Truth. That Church is Christ Himself. So you are in effect saying that Christ is not correct.
Christ is the Church, the Holy Spirit is given to its members who reside in that Body, and as the guiding force, lives that Truth in the faithful.  
That is why I can say with conviction that I believe in ONE HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. Why? because it is Christ Himself.

Also, your assessment that the war on the forum is between those of faith & works is incorrect as well.

It is more correct to say it is about faith and those who believe in faith alone. It is not about faith and works. Faith IS works.
If you learn anything, you aught to learn how to represent another's views, even though you disagree with them.  It is very rare that you even attempt to restate it correctly as stated by others.
Is it possible that you actually do not understand what others are saying or explaining.

That is simply a blatant lie, Sojourner. Paul received the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus! He was the ONLY member of his group who did. Jesus said; "I tell you the truth, unless A MAN (not a group) is born of water and the spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven." Paul also says this when he says; "The MAN without the spirit cannot accept the things that come from the spirit of god, for they are foolishenss to him, and he cannot understand them for they are spiritually discerned. Your made-up gospel is very creative but coming from your imagination instead of the bible. I DEFINITELY believe the bible before I believe you!  

What is a lie?  Try quoting something someone has said before you accuse them of lying.  If you do it like I have always done with you (quoting your obvious lies) then people might be able to follow your rantings.  As it is, no one can tell what of the things sojurner has said you think to be a lie.


But yet you want to focus only on part of that statement the faith and ignore that there is a requirement to also be baptized by water too (which is a works).  It is bad enough when you form doctine without considering other verses or even responding to them when they are pointed out by others; but when you ignore portions of the very verse you choose to prove a point.


Once again you don't quote the word of God but insert your own rendition of it to make it say what you want it to.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This verse merely says what we have been saying all along - that we cannot seek or find or understand God without His grace.  It does not say that it is the Spirit alone which makes him understand - that is just your extension of it, done completely without basis.

Heidi,

Well, you had better go back to that chapter again and pay very close attention to verse 17, Acts 9.
Do you equate the calling or messages from God as receiving the Holy Spirit?

Possibly you aught to check Acts 2: 16-17.
Also, the only time a group was given the Holy Spirit as a group is in John 20:22. This was also before Pentacost when the world was given the Holy Spirit.
When and how  do individuals recieve the Holy Spirit?
II Cor 1:21-22,  Eph 1:13;I John 2:20,27; 3:24; 4:13. Acts 2:38; Acts 8:14-17, Acts 19:6.
All Truth given to the Apostles - John 14:26, John 16:13-15, John 15:26.

All Truth was given to the Apostles and it was passed on to the believing faithful. We as faithful receive understanding of this Truth  via the Holy Spirit as members of the Church which is the guardian of this Truth. We recieve it individually only when we become members of His Church. Baptism and chrismation. The verses above bear this out.

You poor soul, Sojourner, You have been brainwashed by the catholic church to believe that THEY and they alone HAVE the Holy Spirit because the apostles did. That is not only absurd, but the common thread of all cult leaders because it works! All cult leaders claim that they and they alone have the Holy Spirit and some people believe them!  That is NOT what Jesus teaches at all!

What do you think the Holy Spirit does, Sojourner? anything? How do you think Paul ALL OF A SUDDEN believed that Jesus was the Son of God? Do you even think? Who do you think Jesus said our COUNSELOR-THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH is? The CATHOLIC CHURCH? How do you think we have the ability to discern truth from fiction? From the tooth faiy? just a guess? Guessing is NOT faith, it's DOUBT. You have ZERO faith that the Holy Spirit has ANY powers at all! But the catholic church is INFALLIBLE!!!! Power, glory belongs to the "special" not to the poor in spirit! You poor soul. I can only pray that one day you will receive the Holy Spirit inside of you and you will know EXACTLY how it changes eahc individual heart. That is something the catholic church CANNOT do for you.

Heidi,


That clearly does not align with your personal view. But you need to stand back of your accusation here. Prove either you correct or the catholic church, that is the Orthodox catholic church is in error.
In truth, I have been brainwashed by the Holy Spirit. He lead me to accept the One True Church and I excercised my will in choosing Him this day. Then I permitted the Church to teach me what that Gospel actually was as it was given to the Apostles.
Sorry, Heidi, but that is precisely what Jesus taught. Just read your Bible, but then if one does not have the Holy Spirit, discernment is not available, that might be your problem. Did you ever consider it, Heidi?

I have already clearly answered the first part. But as usual you will continue to run your broken record over, and over, and over again. Are these pat answers because no matter what post, any thread, they seem to be the same tired phrases which have long been disproved.

Not actually the Catholic Church. But yes, the catholic church, the one that started with the Apostles. It is still alive today. Check it out for yourself.

We have the ability to discern truth from fiction because the Holy Spirit has preserved that Truth in His Church and thus we don't need to formulate new gospel. We just need to divide the scriptures. One can easily discern false from truth this way. Why do you think I can easily say you are incorrect. I have 2000 years of the same teaching, same practice, same faith, with the same Holy Spirit that has authenticated His faithful working of that Truth in the faithful and martyrs.
How about showing me wrong. Prove your personal view is actually the Gospel once given to the Apostles.

Show me from scripture how you develop your doctrine of the Holy Spirit? the Church? How you understand the Incarnation? Your Christology?
It probably would still be your personal interpretion but I at least would have some new arguments to see instead of your tired, false understandings.

Since you have not proven anything, I'll stick with the catholic Church (Orthodox) to lead me. Christ is better than you leading any day.

Quote from Heidi:

Uhh, no he didn't....he received it 3 days later. He suffered blindness for 3 days, and then received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 9:3  And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Acts 9:6  And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Acts 9:9  And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Acts 9:17  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 9:18  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

That is something the catholic church CANNOT do for you.

Amen Sister, Amen

Your friend and brother

Brother Love :)

<:)))><

Sojounrer,
The Holy spirit HAS PRESERVED THE TRUTH IN THE CHURCH? So why has the church changed its mind in regard to not reading the mass in Latin? In 1850, why did Pope Leo suddenly ADD to the bible and declare Mary a virgin all of her life? If they were infallible then every teaching they gave from the beginning would still be used to day, would it not? The bible CANNOT be added to or subtracted from. So why does the infallible CHURCH change its mind? Weren't they right to begin with?

Heidi you are so confused over what the Church teaches you cannot even identify it yet you still hate - how sad.

The celebrating the Mass in Latin is not a matter of doctrine -so it was never an issue of infallibility - go learn more about what this authority is before you run off half informed spreading hate.  The Church has changed its mind over many issue that are not related to doctrine.  The Holy Spirit was not promised to protect the Church in these matters as they are of little consequence and affect no ones salvation.


Actually you have it all wrong again Heidi.  Do you ever research anything before you shoot off your mouth?

There was no Pope Leo in 1850 (Pope Pius reigned from 1846 to 1878) and the perpetual Virginity of Mary is not a Dogma of the Church.

The Catholic Church has proclaimed 3 Marian Dogmas during its history.

The first dogma, "Mary, the Mother of God," was proclaimed by the Council of Ephesus in AD 431.

The second dogma, the "Immaculate Conception," was proclaimed in 1854 by Pope Pius IX in Ineffabilit Deus. It proclaimed that the Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, was preserved immune from all stain of original sin. (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 491)

The third dogma, the "Assumption of Mary," was proclaimed in 1950 by Pope Pius XII in Lumen Gentium. It proclaimed that the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of Lords and conqueror of sin and death. (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 966)

However the issue of Mary's Perpetual Virginity has been taught by the Church since the ealriest times as evidenced by the tract entitled - The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary St. Jerome Against Helvidius.  This tract appeared about A.D. 383, when both Jerome and Helvidius were at Rome, and Damasus was Pope.  There are also earlier references by Tertullian and others.


No, only those teachings related to doctrine and they are in fact all still taught today.

Heidi,


Heidi, how many times have I stated that I am Orthodox? Did you ever attempt, not just ot acknowledge this fact, but even do a little research to find what that Chruch actually is and possible where it might differ from the Roman Catholic Church.
What you said here does not apply to me in the least, except the very first one dealing with the Virginity of Mary. All the rest are Roman and not Orthodox.
And, absolutely, yes, the Orthodox has not changed the faith since the beginning.
That is as far as I will go on that for now.

That is something the catholic church CANNOT do for you.

Amen Sister, Amen

Your friend and brother

Brother Love :)

<:)))><
No one ever said that just you brother. Making statemenst that no one did to pursue your own anti-catholic agenda. Not very Christian in bearing false witness

Brother love knows what Jesus says and that the catholic church says the opposite. "A man cannot serve two masters." We have only ONE HOLY FATHER and He is in heaven. Which master do you serve, Lion? God or the pope? You cannot serve both.

Catholics do not serve the Pope he serves us.

Hey, not to say that any of your churches did or anything, but what on earth is wrong with changing doctrine? Shouldn't things be revised in order to obtain maximum efficency at all times? Why or why not?

-Thanks, Matt

Issues of doctrine are different from issues of discipline.  You can change discipline issues, but doctrine relates to salvation.  If you change those it means you had them wrong before and that means all those you told how to be saved you misled and Christ's Church would not do that.  So changing doctrine would be an admission that you are not the true Church.

Whach about eating only "FISH" on Friday, "NO MEAT" Is that a change of Doctrine?  ;D

Nope only a change of discipline as you well know.

The disciplines HAVE to come from the doctrine, Michael. Splitting hairs  cannot change that.

No they don't - that doesn't make any sense at all unless you are misunderstanding the term doctrine - which with your knowledge of Catholicism I wouldn't be surprised.

Doctrines relate to salvation.  Disciplines relate to walk.  Our walk can change without affecting our salvation can it not?  Or do you believe in salvation by works?

But you have said that your walk CAN change our salvation, have you not?

Do you not see that our walk comes from the HEART not "disciplines?" Do you not see that our walk comes from the LOVE for God rather than rules and regulations? This is Jesus's WHOLE POINT to the Pharisees! Jesus said, "First clean the cup from the INSIDE and the outside will BECOME clean as well." Do you understand what he means? Once his love and forgiveness enters our hearts, HE HAS CLEANED THEM by washing away our sins, Michael. Because HE HAS CLEANED them, our outside will BECOME clean as well. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." If we have the love for God inside of our hearts, we CANNOT HELP BUT SHOW IT! It is not FORCED, but genuine! Then there is ABSOLUTELY no NEED for disciplines! Our responses are coming from our hearts! God REPLACES our desires of the flesh with the DESIRES of the spirit! That's why there are so many people in the church who "practice" disciplines but their hearts are far from Him. Paul said that any works without LOVE are meaningless. They first have to receive the unconditional love from God before they can give that love to back to God or anyone else!

Yes, our walk can affect our salvation but only in the sense of it matching proper behavior in line with loving obedience.  It is not the act itself or the works fulfilling the particular act but the loving obedience that is either present or not in our complying with the discipline that is important.  But you do not believe this so you cannot argue that as proof that discipline and doctrine are related especially when you do not understand the subtly of this issue.  

I offer the following as a silly example to make the work appear separate form the issue of obedience and perhaps make it clearer to you.

If the Church tells me to stand on the right foot and I do it as a matter of discipline and loving obedience it can affect my salvation in the sense that I am obeying to those who watch over my soul as we are taught in scripture (Heb 13:17).  If they change their mind and tell me now stand on the left foot I can affect my salvation by lovingly obeying or not.  It was not the issue of discipline (which foot to stand on) but the loving obedience behind it that is important.  of course you are free to disobey and not lose your salvation as long as you are not doing it just to thwart the Church or to pruposely not dothe will of God.  Even then you can always repent if you later change oyur mind and are truly sorry.

The more important issues relating to salvation are not related at all to discipline but to doctrine as explained in scripture.  Issues where specific works are directly linked to salvation (you know the verses I am talking about - I have quoted them to you repeatedly and you always ignore them).


The love behind the obedience comes from the heart but obedience has to be to something - so there has to be authorities, rules and regulations.


No Jesus whole point to the Pharisees was that they were focused on the details and letter of the law and neglecting the spirit of the law which is love.


No once again by paraphrasing God'sword you have gotten it wrong.  Here it is properly quoted in context.

Mat 23:24  Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

The Pharisees did the discipline but ignored the easy act of loving (they though God desired sacrifice not mercy - which is of course backwards)

Mat 23:25  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Jesus is saying that their outsides were clean but it hid an inner filth.
 
Mat 23:26  Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus is telling them worry about the love inside and then it will be easy to clean the outside.  God desires mercy not sacrifice.

That is why earlier Jesus makes the point that they should focus on the weightier matters like mercy but still to do the tithe of mint and anise and cummin.

Mat 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

If one only does the issues of discipline thinking they are meriting salvation they would be as the Pharisees but that is not what the Catholic Church teaches.  That is how disciplines differ from doctrines.  You must understand the doctrines and obey them as well for the disciplines to lead you in a proper walk.  


But that is not what scripture says else Jesus would have told the Pharisees not to worry about the tithe of mint and anise and cummin but He toldthem to do it to.  We are responsible for our own cleaning once we have God's grace in us to cooperate with.  It is called sanctification and it is part of the process of salvation.

So I guess that when Jesus said; "IT IS FINISHED", what he really meant was "IT IS NOT FINISHED". Oops, I guess he was wrong again, according to Michael. Your interpretation is ALWAYS the OPPOSITE of Jesus's words. It would be very amusing if it weren't so sad.

You have also just shown us who your God is, as if i didn't know. "If the church tells me to stand on my right foot, I would do it..." But if JESUS tells you NOT call call anyone 'father' you WILLl! At least you've finally admitted who your HOLY FATHER is. We're FINALLY getting to the truth. Again, this is very sad, Michael. I'll pray that you receive the Holy Spirit someday so you'll know who your REAL teacher is and who your REAL HOLY FATHER is. But as long as you're loyal to the pope instead of Jesus you will never enter heaven because the pope cannot get you there. "A man cannot serve two masters." Sorry. If you truly want to be saved read the ONLY person who has the words of eternal life. You have clearly shown that you don't value them as much as the catholic doctrine.

No my definition of IT is different from yours Heidi.  If you want to claim my definition is wrong show me in scripture where the IT in this verse is defined.


Just following the instructions of God's word in the Holy Scriptures...

Heb 13:17  Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Oh, so now we're getting into what the definition of "is" is, as Bill Clinton put it. It won't do any good to show you what Jesus means by "it is finished" because you don't believe His words anyway, Michael. Since your interpretations rely on believing the OPPOSITE of what Jesus says, you can justfiy any interpretation you want to yourself. You can no more understand Jesus's words than atheists can believe in God. Until you're interested in what's true and what's not true, you will continue to twist Christ's words around any which way you want. The bottom line is that when you die, you will find out just EXACTLY what He means. Since you're more interested in twisting Christ's words instead of understanding them as written, then there is nothing anyone can do to help you. Your life is in God's hands, not mine.  

So this means you cannot find any scripture to back up your weird doctrine in this instance?

Yes Heidi I want to know what IT means in this instance and I want the scriptures to define it instead of rely on man.

You claim the Bible has everythign we need to know (even if you couldn't prove it) so it should have the definition of IT.

By the way how do you know that the Bible says EVERYTHING we need to know?  

That sounds like something we need to know - so you must have got that from the Bible, since something we need to know is part of EVERYTHING we need to know.  

Where in the Bible does it say that it says EVERYTHING we need to know?

No, I get tired of throwing Jesus's words where they will be trampled on. But if you want me to spoon-feed you, I will. If you do not believe that IT IS FINISHED, then you can ONLY BELIEVE that you have to EARN your way to heaven, is that not correct? How else will it be finished?

No that is not correct.  That is your problem your mind cannot grasp anymore than two alternatives at a time.

A third alternative is that what was finished was the offer of the gift, what we have to do is accept it.  But accepting a gift is not earning it.

If you offer a helium balloon to a child and tell them to hold on tight and not let go, and they accept it and hold on tight and not let go just as you told them how to accept it, do you think that child earned the helium balloon?  If you do then you are one cruel minded parent.  The obedience that the child did out of love for you is in no way earning the gift.


It will be finished when we accept the gift (in the manner the Gospel tells us to) and continue to hold on to it and endure so that at the final judgement when God asks about the gift He gave us we can say yep here it is.   Then it is finished.

FAITH + WORKS For Salvation
(A STUDY IN JAMES 2)


“Do you believe a man is saved by grace?”


“Yes, certainly, However, works are also essential.”


“ Then you do not believe a man is saved by grace
alone?”


“How can I, when James the 2nd chapter informs us
that “faith without works is DEAD?”


So argued the water-works Salvationist. And so argue all who contend that sinners must submit to physical ordinances and obey the moral laws of God in order to finally, at last, maybe perhaps make it to heaven. When hard pressed to prove there doctrine, they invariably flee to James 2:14-26 for defense. Here all who believe in Christ + works for salvation find common ground.


A CHRISTIAN IS JUUSTIFIED BY GOOD WORKS


But no one can carefully read James 2 and honestly contend that the writer is showing sinners how to be “born again,” how to be saved, how to have a home in heaven! James is simply explaining to Christians brethren how to prove they ARE saved. As we read in vs. 18, “I will SHOW thee my faith BY MY WORKS.” And that is the only way any Christian can show his faith by doing works that only living faith can produce.


ABRAHAM and RAHAB were JUSTIFIED BY WORKS that is, their works proved they had living faith in God. The faith that saved Abraham preceded the offering of Isaac by some 20 years! See Gen. 15:6; Gal.3:6-9; Gen. 22. His offering Isaac PROVED his faith to be perfect for “he staggered NOT at the promise of God through unbelief” – Romans 4:20. Dead faith can have no works! But living faith germinates good works as we have been “SAVED UNTO (or for the purpose of doing) GOOD WORKS.” See Eph 2:10. Note 8:9


GOD WAS JUSTIFIED BY THE PEOPLE

Another use of the word “justified” is found in Luke 7:29, “the people…and the publicans justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.” Neddless to sat, God was not saved by the people, though He was justified by them, for justification as regarding God or man means to declare one (or the other) to be right.


A SINNER IS JUSTIFIED BY BELIEVING

A sinner can be brought into right relationship to God (that is, justified, made fit for heaven) by penitently BELIEVING “the record of God’s son.” See 1 John 5:1-13). No sinner has ever been justified by works, for “the grace of God that bringeth salvation” is opposed to works for salvation, even as Romans 11:6 declares, “IF BY GRACE then is it NO MORE OF WORKS, otherwise grace is no more grace…”God the Father has already provided a sufficient life and sacrifice for our sins through His Son Jesus Christ, whom He has raised from the dead. See 1 Peter 2:22-24; 1 Cor. 15:1-5; 2 Cor. 5:21. Here, then, is God’s plan for saving or JUSTIFYING sinners: “This is the work of (singular) of God, that ye BELIEVE on Him Whom He hath sent.” – John 6:29. For “to him that WORKETH NOT, but BELIVETH on Him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS.” – Rom. 4:5-6. “For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself, it is THE GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boars.” – Eph. 2:8-9. Therefore, being JUSTIFIED (declared right) BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”—Rom. 5:1.


It is clear there can be no salvation for the sinner who, like Cain, has faith in his own dead works rather than like Abel, who had faith in the coming Messiah of God.’


A FINAL WORD: Yes, “the demons also BELIEVE, and tremble,” (vs 19) but nowhere in the Bible are we told they believe on Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They DID believe on Him as their coming tormentor and destroyer. See Matt. 8:29; Heb 2:14; 1 John 3:8. And they also believed “there is one God.” But multiplied millions have so believed and died eternally lost! Believing “there is one God” will not save, but believing on Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour will! John 5:24; Acts 16:31.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Amen & Amen

Brother Love :)

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