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I noticed in another thread somethings being said about speaking in tongues.So i had a few qeustions on gifts and rather post them there,thought they required there own topic.I beleive that speaking in tongues happens.My qeustion is ive noticed some people speak in tongues when they want to as if they had control over it,which i always thought wasnt the real deal?Iam i correct in assuming this?Also i have never spoke in tongues,but iam a born again christian.

1 Corinthians 14

jabez,

If you are a born again christian, you have been baptized into the Body of Christ and have been given a spiritual gift or gifts, by the same Spirit, who according to 1 Cor 12;

1 Cor 12
4  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1 Cor 14
2  For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
39  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Note this verse in particular;

11,................ divides the gifts to every man according to His will as it hath pleased Him. (vs 18)

For the purpose vs 25  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

Note, that not all receive the same gift, imagine if everyone was a tongue, the church would be a monstrous looking thing, but just a physical body is perfectly made when complete, has many members, with different functions, doing different operations, and functions, while caring for itself. If one member suffers all suffer.

So our gifts, are that we might use them to edify and lift up one another, and keep out what is foreign to the body, because just as foreign matter in a physical body, weakens and infects it, so the foreign things which seek to enter into the Body of Christ seek to injure and destroy it, this includes heretical teachings, which bring in schisms, and evil works and thinking.

Since it is God, who has given you your own speciual gift, you can be assured it is perfect for you, and you should use to edify and bear up others with it.

This is the purpose of them.   Not all have the gift od tongues.  Not all can teach, not all, can prophecy (give out God word)nor discern spirits..........and so on.

I trust you know what your gift is, if not you may want to pray God, make it known to you that you might grow to use it, for the building up of the Body of Christ.

Blessings,

Petro

::Spiritual Gifts::

1.Message of Wisdom
2.Message of  Knowledge
3.Faith
4.Gifts of Healing
5.Miraculous Powers
6.Prophecy
7.Ability to distinguish between spirts
8.Speak in Tongues
9.Interpretation of tongues

Is there some where that goes into more detail of the gifts?Or can someone give examples of them?Also do we have only one gift or many?

Hi Jabez,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is a link to one of the best articles I have ever read on tongues.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/joeflorence/tongues.html

pilgrim

jabez,

To the church, he has given or ordained men with these peculiar gifts. (1 Cor 12:28)

And since you or I or anyone could rise to the level of excersizing some of these, then it wopuld stand to reason, some may have more than one.

For instance you may have the gift of discerning of Spirits (vs 10), and also, helps (vs 28).


Blessings,

Petro

^{I noticed in another thread somethings being said about speaking in tongues.So i had a few qeustions on gifts and rather post them there,thought they required there own topic.}

That is very good Jabez.

^{I beleive that speaking in tongues happens.}

Yes, it does. By His grace, I do speak in tongues.

^{My qeustion is ive noticed some people speak in tongues when they want to as if they had control over it,which i always thought wasnt the real deal? Iam i correct in assuming this?}

Sorry Jabez, your assumption is not correct. Speaking in tongues, here biblical gift of the Spirit, is also like speaking in any other human language. But as this is a gift from God, you need to receive this gift by faith. For it is written, it is is impossible to please God without faith (ref. Heb.11:6). Several people think that God the Holy Spirit, like a dentist, comes and puts this gift in their mouths. It is not so. One has to receive it by faith, for Christian living is by faith, not by site. "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. " (Acts 2:4)

Language is also known as tongue, as in mother tongue. As you speak English language only when you want/like to speak, you can speak in tongues only when you want to speak. It is under your control. For it is written, "the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets." (1 Cor. 14:32) Once you start to speak in tongues, you will know this.

^{Also i have never spoke in tongues,but iam a born again christian.}

Praise God that you found His grace to become a born again child of God. What you next have to do is to get baptized in water (if not yet). Read the Book of Acts and 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 carefully and prayerfully. Remember what John the Baptist said about the Lord Jesus (Matthew 3:11 and Luke 3:16) ? Ask the Lord Jesus, the Mighty Baptizer, to baptize you in His Holy Spirit, bursting out into tongues.

Remember, the most important subject in receiving the Holy Spirit is unconditional forgiveness. Otherwise, you will never receive the Holy Spirit. So, if you think you have to forgive anyone for anything, get right with them first and go to Lord Jesus with thirst to drink. Without thirst no one can drink. He will fill you. Trust Him! " On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, 'Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.'" (John 7:37-38; attributes added).

For your information, there are actually 21 spiritual gifts out of which 9 are categorized as major gifts of the Holy Spirit. These 9, also known as power/demonstrating gifts, are divided into 3 groups of 3 gifts each:

A. Gifts of Revelation
     1. Word of Wisdom
     2. Word of Knowledge
     3. Gift of Discerning spirits

B. Gifts of Communication
     1. Gift of Speaking in Tongues
     2. Gift of Interpretation
     3. Gift of Prophesy

C. Power Gifts
     1. Gift of Faith
     2. Gift of Healing
     3. Gift of Working Miracles.

Jabez, if you could receive by faith the most important of all, the Eternal Life, then you can receive this gift also by faith. Hope to hear glad news from you soon. Blessings!

very good reply thank you.

I have been baptized,iam just looking for better understanding to qeustions i have personally.I always thought that speaking in tongues was something we had no control over.Ive seen people speak in tongues as they pleased.

Iam going to do a research on the speaking of tongues,and i will report back with what i find.

I believe that when the scriptures were completed, the canon was closed and that this gift is no longer in use. My understanding is that these were known languages used for evangelizing and spreading the gospel.

**What ive learned so far**

1 corinthians 13:7-10

Which suggest to me that tongues will be stillled,to me meaning stopped.

**Also i found there to be two kinds of tongues..
 
1.Xenoglossia: (a.k.a. Zenolalia, Xenoglossia) This is the miraculous ability to spontaneously speak a foreign language without first having learned it, or even been exposed to it.
*Example of Xenoglossia Acts 2:1-13

Filled with the Holy Spirit, the believers began to speak in other languages they neither learned nor understood. The result was that many passers-by heard the gospel proclaimed in their own languages. In bewilderment, they became convicted by the message they heard and became believers in Jesus Christ.

2.Glossolalia: The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary on the Bible defines glossolalia as: "the ecstatic utterance of emotionally agitated religious persons, consisting of a jumble of disjointed and largely unintelligible sounds. Those who speak in this way believe that they are moved directly by a divine spirit and their utterance is therefore quite spontaneous and unpremeditated.
*Example of Glossolalia 1 corinthians 14:2

Iam still studing this,so i havent made any conclusions yet,but it is very interesting.If anyone knows of any other verses or studies i would appreciate them.I will post more as i find them..GOD Bless

I agree, for the most part, although I believe *some* tongues were used for prayer between the soul and God. (i.e., the reference to a prayer that the soul enjoys but the mind doesn't comprehend.) These may or may not have been known human languages. But then, I wasn't there, I don't know!  :)

My understanding is that when tongues were spoke in the public church, they were to be interpreted, and this was a message from God to the church.
And, as Willowbirch said, there is also tongues in your private closet of prayer, which then is you, by the Holy Spirit, speaking to God.
And the third is when God speaks through you in a language you do not know, but He is speaking to the listener. Of this last I have read stories of it happening.One was a missionary who started preaching the gospel to an African tribal chief in Swahili, which he could not speak, and the chief knew he could not speak. The chief and his whole tribe became Christians. Of this last story I cannot state it to be true, for I was not there, but the missionary is a true man of God.
I just sugest you ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth about this to you. Do not go by what I or others may say, unless it is confirmed to you by Him.

Blessings in Christ as you seek.  Roy.

Amen

Brother Love :)

jabez,

You may be on the right tract, I also, noticed this many years ago.

Glossolalia, could very well be what ceased, when that which is perfect comes.

While the other, which is a gift, and between men and God, has not.

Either way, one can be assured of this one thing, if men subject themself to the Lord, it will become evident, there are churches that try to conduct services, whereby they recognize this is not totally clear (that tongues ceased in churches) and have commited themseolves to holkd services in accordance with these commandments, whereby they give opportunity for their members to speak in tongues but must be interpreted, and from what I have gathered they say it has never occured, if this is true, it could very well be that this type of tongues is ceased.

The one which is, one of the listed gifts, whereby men speak to God, and not to man (1 Cor 14:2) may not have come to an end, I don't see, any reason for men to cease speaking to God, this always has been between man and God, and perhaps a form of prayer.

This has never been my gift, so I don't spend alot of time, worrying about this.  I just say only  God knows, and according to verse 2, the man that speaks to God, speaks mysteries in the spirit, which means to me, he may not even know what he is saying himself.

However as soon as this man begings speaking to men, I know it is not the tongues mentined in Chap 12, we can be assured of this truth.

Any way the answer is in the scriptures, in do time Christians will know..

Petro

I beleive this type of tongues still happens,the type where your spirt is talking to GOD,and where your spirt is talking to the church with a interpter.

I still dont understand this..Can people speak in tongues when they want?I beleive that they can not.

It seems to me that a lot is being based on somebody's belief that the verse that says, "when that which is perfect comes," refers to the Bible being completed, as has been stated over and over. Not all agree that is what is being said there, and it DOES NOT say that. It is just how some interpret it. And, if it did mean that, which was not far off from the time Paul wrote this to the churches, why was Paul telling the church to "...desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues." [1 Cor. 14.39].

There is only one truth regarding the speaking of tongues, and that truth comes from He who lives in us as He reveals the truth to us. So if any reading this thread ask themself, "who is right here about tongues?" I say the Holy Spirit is right. ALWAYS. So if it is really important to you, seek Him for the answer.

Your brother in Christ.  Roy.

I went to a church tonight that is pentecostal,sorry for the spelling.Everything was great and toward the end the preacher asked if anyone needed prayer and some went and he asked the congregation to come and lay hands on them.As i whatched i heard one or two ladies start speaking in tongues.I will do as you sugested roy i will pray for the truth on this..

For over 13 years I was in the Full Gospel circle, I believed I spoke in tongues(at that time) Not now. Guys like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Ken Copeland, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Robert Tilton, Jimmy Swaggert, etc, etc speak in tongues  ;D
 Question: Why is it usualy a fat woman who does it in the local meetings?
===========================
Whitehorse  Posted on: September 17, 2003, 11:41:45 PM  
I believe that when the scriptures were completed, the canon was closed and that this gift is no longer in use. My understanding is that these were known languages used for evangelizing and spreading the gospel.  

AAAAAAAAAAAAAMen
 

Hi everyone,
I'm not a Bible scholar, But I'll share some of what I learned  on these things. First I want to say I don't believe tongues (the one kind, the only kind) are in operation today.
We'll get into that later. I believe that scripture is complete.
(no more revelatory prophesy)


1 Cor. 13;8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away
13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


Does the closed cannon of scripture= The perfect?
( At one time I believed this to be true )

But now, here are some reasons I have a problem with that:

A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians.
 I think spiritaul and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that.

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped. The two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17.

D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who " Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth".Rev. 11:3

E) We will see "face to face". 1 Cor.13:12 .

F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known".

G) The verb  "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temorariness of gifts.

All other popular interpretations of "the perfect" Must pass the test. Which eliminates the rapture, the maturing Church, and the second coming.

The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers.
This is the only possibility. Only in Heaven will we see "face to face". only in heaven will we be "know fully just as we also have been fully known".
 
As a side note, tongues, "they will cease", cease uses a different verb  (pauo) . This is different from (katargeo). Check it out.


Some thoughts on the two different types of tongues. There were two different types, the false gift (gibberish), and the true gift.
 Paul wasn't telling each individual to use prophecy over tongues, he was telling the Church to use the people with the gift of prophecy over the people with the gift of tongues within the Church.
"Eagerly desire the greater gifts", look up (zeloo) #2206 in the greek dictionary. Given the fact that Paul just got through telling the Corinth church not to do this, this would have to be used as a statement of fact (But you) "eagerly desire the greater gifts", and not a command. The NIV gives this alternate translation and I believe is correct in doing so.

 1 Cor. 14:2 , 14:14  Quickly, Paul ministers for God, not to God. Also, a better translation for "God" would be "a god", A similar translation can be seen in Acts 17:23, where the same form of  theo (God) is used in reference to "an unknown god".
If "my spirit" is refering to the Holy Spirit, then "my mind" is also speaking of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could not be praying through a person while bypassing the mind. And he certainly was not saying that the mind of the Holy spirit sometimes can be unfruitful. My spirit means his spirit.
The gibberish that infiltrated the Corinth Church was from the "Mystery religions" of that time. Chech it out. This is far to big a topic to type with one finger. don't rely on what you read on this thread only. Study your brains out on this one.
If you are Charismatic, may I suggest to balance your study, that you look into what John MacArthur's teachings have to say. This is one of the teachers this rookie studies under. My only intent is to raise some questions in your mind while you study this yourself.

If anyone disagrees with what I posted, I would be happy to hear why. I studied all sides of this issue and have found this to be accurate and in line with scripture.(to the best of my understanding)

Thanks and God bless,
4JC

I would just like to ask one question 4; does God repent of His Gifts?


Love..Tamara

Hi Tamara,

I'm not sure what you mean, and I'm not sure how to take that. So I guess i'll leave that one alone.


Love 4JC

Hi 4J!

The Holy Spirit gives Gifts as He will.  These are listed.  Once given one of these gifts, they are your's to use with care and guidance of the Holy Spirit.  Speaking in a different language is one of these gifts.  It is a spiritual language and to be used under direct guidance of the Holy Spirit.  Not as one wants to use it.
I speak in a different language as I asked for the Baptism Of The Holy Spirit, and it was prayed that I would receive the Baptism.
Father gives us these gifts, and never takes them away, if we use them as directed by the Holy Spirit.
Many folk don't realise that this magnificent gift is to be used with utter discretion.  ONLY as directed by the Holy Spirit.
How can you tell if it is being used indiscriminately?
The people who have the gift should also have the fruits.  The speaking in the different language should be interpreted if the person/people are speaking in public.
One doesn't take these gifts lightly!  They are from GOD HIMSELF!!  And...once you know that fact.  And receive a gift, the joy you experience is unimagineable.  Absolutely unimagineable.
And, if directed to pray alone in the language you have been given, your heart swell with joy and, you know you are speaking to God Himself.  And, He IS listening.

Love..Tamara.

I will add to that letter.
You see, today people are using the gifts indiscriminately. You will see this on some T.V. Evangelist shows. And, in sone of the churches of today.
Speaking in "tongues" (a prayer language) is a lesser gift.  Nevertheless, it is a gift from God.  A spontaneous gift. It comes in an instant and you find yourself speaking in a different language.
Now Satan can copy the gifts too.  BUT, he cannot copy the FRUITS.  LOVE is the chief fruit. Yes, he can give a fake "love", but, the true LOVE OF GOD, in one of His Children is a never failing love.  An unconditional Love.  It reaches out to embrace all that is good.  A true child of God will obey any call in Love.  
The true child of God does not seek riches.  He/she is content with whatever God gives.  And, He is a most generous Father!  BUT! I stress...He only GIVES WHAT WE NEED!  NOT what we want. But, then, the true Child Of God has placed his/her life in His Hands where their life is safe!
Many people claim to have the gifts, but, always remember to LOOK FOR THE FRUITS!  If they are sarcastic, bitter, money grabbers, hurt people, deny people comfort when they need it, love themselves and dress in splendour, deny the words of Paul, (all of them!)  talk loudly, are brash and insulting...they have not the fruits...even if they can speak in a different language!  Their prophecies are false, their actions are false, their love is false.  
The true Child Of God is gentle, kind, loving and thoughtful towards other people in every way.
And, they are very happy!  Why?  Because they are the Children of God!  He has given them TRUE joy!
And, you'll find that these folk are at their happiest just watching their Father's Creation's, from the magic lights of the sunset, to the might of the lofty mountain.
The true child of God speaks in their prayer language alone, or, many times they may just be looking at the magnicence of creation and will hear a little voice softly say "Speak to me child." ...and they will just talk to their Father in Heaven, as a friend...

Love..Tamara.

Hi again Tamara,

Someone told me, just after I was saved, to test everything to scripture, even scripture itself. This was the best advice  ever given to me. Nobody should take the gifts lightly, but We still need to test everything to his word. Always go with scripture over everything. I would like nothing more than to walk into a hospital and heal all the sick, but I can't, nobody can. I would also like nothing better than to go to another country and preach the gospel in my own language and have them hear it in their own language, but I can't, nobody can. Even the Churches that claim they can speak in tongues still need to send their missionaries to school to learn the languages of the places they are going to. These (sign) gifts had a purpose, that purpose does not exist anymore.

"Speaking in "tongues" (a prayer language) is a lesser gift."  

This is the problem with a personal prayer language(If this is what you are talking about).
It's personal, nobody is edified other than the person speaking it, or praying it, and the gifts are never for self edification. This also goes against the Laws of love, and without love, we are nothing more than a clanging symbol. Believe me, I spent two of my first three years in a Pentecostal Church and my first task (in study) was to test the Church creed, or statement of faith. This was not easy for a new Christian. On the surface everything looked ok, But the more I studied, the more the contradictions surfaced. Did you ever wonder why a new Christian could walk into almost any (Christian denomination) Church, it could be Pentecostal, Baptist,Whatever, and be convinced, by scripture, that what that denomination teaches is truth. even though it's different from what the other Christian denominations are teaching? I did. These debates are old and the false teachings are well rehearsed With a proof text to match. Thats why it's important to study these things ourselves. We just need to dig deep enough and they will be exposed. Nobody gets it all right at once. We are all fooled by false teachings at one time or another.

 I was told by the Penticostal Church I attended the reason their (revelatory) prophecy didn't meet Biblical standards was because it was a lesser gift than what the Apostles had. Same with healing, and their tongues couldn't meet Biblical standards either. I'll quote Thomas Edgar from his book " Satisfied by the promise of the Spirit",

"The Charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people that is why they are credible today. That is, because most people believe the Charismatic movement offers the promise of the same gifts described in the New Testament. Yet," he says, "Now, when challenged by the obvious fact that their gifts don't meet Biblical standards, one of their primary defenses is to claim that their gifts are not the same as those gifts in the New Testament. Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence."  

I still have many Charismatic and Petecostal friends, and I wish we could see eye to eye on these issues. But we just go round and round on this. Somebody is wrong. I believe if anyone is willing to look at all sides of this issue honestly, they will be convinced the true sign gifts are not what we see in the Churches today, by experience ( again, this shouldn't matter), and most importantly by scripture.


Your brother in Christ,
 Love 4JC

Hi 4JC!

I agree with nothing the Apostolic or Pentecostal churches teach.  We have a teacher.  The Holy Spirit who will guide us into all truths.
And, we MUST test EVERYTHING to scripture.  Even the slightest detail cannot be overlooked.  Because I speak in a Prayer Language makes me no better than anyone else. It is NOT for self edification.  This is a personal gift to the glory of God.
It is true that one cannot go into a hospital and heal all the sick.  But, while visiting a hospital I was led to pray for one lady.  She was so ill!  And she welcomed the fact that I would pray for her.  The next day, I saw her in the hospital gardens, she called out to me. I didn't know her!  She had makeup on, and she looked so well.  She cried out "Hey Tamara!  I'm going home tomorrow!!"
Now, that's just an instance of being LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
I have seen them in Apostolic churches doing things which do not agree with scripture.  Using their Prayer Language indiscriminately is one of them.  To use one's Prayer Language, it MUST BE INTERPRETED!  And, I cannot stress that more strongly.  When the Spirit came at Pentecost in the Book of Acts, there were interpreters in the crown.  Paul states people will think you are mad if you speak in tongues in church and nobody interprets.
Now this is true.  I have seen this happen. People going off on their steam talking in their God Given language instead of being led to speak in it by the Holy Spirit.
Due to that fact, I prefer to keep awway from Pentecostal and Apostolic churches. I cannot find anywhere in the Bible about being "slain in the spirit".  Although, walking as a Child Of God, in harmony with His Commandments, Love and guided by the Holy Spirit anything can happen AS WE NEED IT.
More than anything, we need THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, and we receive those if we are absolutely sincere in heart while seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
THEN we walk in LOVE. We cannot have the gifts of the Holy Spirit unless we have the FRUIT. And, the chief FRUIT is LOVE.
I am also against the WOF movement.  Many of these people claim to have the gifts, but, I have yet to see their FRUIT.
And, indeed many of them would prefer to see some of the words of Paul taken out of the Bible regarding a woman's place both in the church, and at home.
I haven't been led to pray in my Prayer Language for a long time now.  So, I don't speak in it as I have not been directed by the Holy Spirit to do so.
If I were to go to an Apostolic or Pentecostal church every Sunday, I could just copy everyone else I suppose and babble away.  But, that is stupid!  Common sense tells one that!
I do know of a lady who spoke in a Prayer Language (tongues) who was prompted by the Holy Spirit to speak in her Prayer Language while overseas.  She spoke quietly to herself.  A lady standing near her said "You have just spoken the most beautiful to your God!  Why don't you use your own language?"  There was no answer.  You see, she never had her language interpreted!  Yet, there she was standing right next to a lady who spoke the language!  
We must use wisdom in everything.  Line up everything with the Bible.  And, test the spirits whether they be from God.  
If we are not sure, we ask Father to take the gift away.  If it is satanic in origin.  You'll never speak it again if it is!  
It is personal.  Between Father and child.  But, if you display the fruits, the TRUE fruits of Love, meekness, etc; then you are on the right track.
Father NEVER repents of His Gifts - nor His Word.  And, He will lead one of His children right out of the wrong 'church'!
Then He will guide them into truth - HIS TRUTH as it is written in the Bible.
Love..Tamara.

Hi Tamara,

I lost my first post (I hate when that happens lol). I need to type this out. This is part one.  



From MacArthur

The gift of tongues was given solely as a sign to unbelieving Israel.

The sign was threefold: a sign of cursing, a sign of blessing, and a sign of authority.


                           A SIGN OF CURSING

Some 15 years or so before Isaiah prophesied about the strange tongues from the lips of strangers, the northern kingdom of Israel had been conquered and taken captive by the Assyrians (in 722 BC) because of unbelief and apostasy. The prophet then warned the southern kingdom, Judah, that the same judgment awaited her at the hands of the Babylonians. The proud religious leaders of Judah would not listen to Isaiah. His teaching was too simple. He talked to them, they claimed, as if they were babies, "Those just weaned from milk" and "just taken from the breast." He taught them as if they were kindergardeners: "Order on order, order on order, line on line, line on line, a little here, a little there" (Isaiah 28:9-10). God had indeed spoken to them simply, in order that the least mature among them could understand and so that no Israelite would have an excuse for not knowing the Lord's will and promise. The essence of His promise was, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary," and "Here is repose"; yet Israel "would not listen" (v.12).

About 800 years before Isaiah, God had warned Israel that "The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand" (Deut. 28:49). the strange language of their conquerers would be a sign of God's judgment. About 100 years after Isaiah, the Lord warned through Jeremiah, "Behold, I am bringing a nation against you from afar, O house of Israel,...a nation whose language you do not know, nor can you understand what they say" (Jer. 5:15). The sign of judgment would be a language they could not understand.

When the apostles spoke at Penticost and were heard in their own language by Jews from many countries (Acts 2:7-11), those Jews should have known that Gods judgment was imminent. His judgment had fallen on rebellious Israel and then on rebellious Judah. How much more would it fall on those of His people who now had crucified the Son of God? In AD 70 that judgment fell, when Jerusalem was utterly destroyed by the Roman general Titus (later emporer). Over one million Jews were slaughtered; thousands more were taken captive; the Temple was plundered, desecrated, and then utterly destroyed; and the rest of the city was burned to the ground. One historian comments that Jerusalem had no history for 60 years. Just as Jesus had predicted when He wept over the city, "Your enemies will throw up a bank before you, and surround you, and hem you in on every side, and will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation" (Luke 19:44; cf. 21:20-24).

After the destruction of Jerusalem, and especially of the Temple, the reason for tongues ceased to exist. The judgment of which it was a sign had come. After the Pentecost manifestation of tongues, Peter, by implication, reminded his hearers of that judgment: " Therefor let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified" (Acts 2:36;cf.vv.22-23).

Part two will be A SIGN OF BLESSING

Your brother in the Lord
 love 4JC

Back again'

Part two                A SIGN OF BLESSING

The second sign was a residual benefit of the first. The gift of tongues was a sign that God would no longer work through one nation, and favor one people. The church of Jesus Christ was for all peoples of all nations, a church in which there are many languages but no barriers. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28).

With great compassion and sorrow for his fellow Jews, Paul wrote in Romans,"But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous." But with a note of great hope he continued, "Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!" (11:11-12). A few verses later he explains more fully:" For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written" (vv.25-26). The way would always be open for individual Jews to come into the kingdom, for the hardening was only partial, and one day the entire nation of Israel would be brought back to her Lord. The sign of tongues was repeated when the Gentiles were included in the church, as recorded in Acts 10:44-46.

God bless
4JC    

Back again,

Part three             A SIGN OF AUTHORITY

Those who preached the judgment and promised the blessing were the apostles and prophets, whose authority was validated by "signs and wonders and miracles" (2 Cor.12:12;cf.Rom. 15:19). Among the authenticating signs was the gift of tongues, in which Paul spoke "more than you all" (1 Cor.14:18).
As a sign, the purpose of tongues ended when that to which it pointed ended. A person driving to Los Angeles may see the first mileage sign about 300 miles away. Later he sees one that reads "200 miles to Los Angeles," and then "50 miles," and then "10 miles." After he passes through the city, however, the mileage signs to Los Angeles cease. They have no further purpose, because that to which they pointed has been reached and passed. The gift of tongues was attached irretrievably to one point in history, and that point has long been passed.

It is interesting, and I believe highly significant, that no record is given is of a single word spoken in tongues or even interpreted. Every reference to tongues is general. They are always mentioned in relation to their purpose and significance, never in relation to their specific content. The messages given in tongues were not new revelations or new insights, but, as at Pentecost, simply unique expressions of old truths, "the mighty deeds of God" (Acts 2:11). Though tongues could edify when interpreted, their purpose was not to teach, but to point, not to reveal God's truth but to validate the truth of his appointed spokesmen.

Since the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 there has been no purpose for the sign gift of tongues, because that to which it pointed has been reached and passed.. Israel has been set aside, the Gentiles have been brought in, and the apostles have given the faith once-for-all delivered to the saints

                                      THE END

 You can't say you never heard are side of it.lol

Your very tired brother in the Lord
4JC

LOL You must be tired 4JC!  I have only one little answer...

Malachi3:6  "For I AM the Lord. I change not.
Luke 11:13 "If you then know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?"  Author. Jesus of Nazareth.

Love...Tamara.

How many of you who have written above do speak in tongues, and do not speak in tongues?
.
.

I DO NOT SPEAK WITH TONGUES:)

Thank You Jesus

Brother Love :)

Hi Phil!

I have the gift of a Prayer Language.

Love...Tamara.

Hi Phil, I don't speak in tongues.

Hi Tamara, I'll repay your kindness with kindness and (try) to keep it short.lol

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The Lord's unchanging character and unswerving commitment to His covenant promise with the patriarchs. This sounds like the (Hebrews 13:8) debate. Although God Himself is unchanging, as (Malichi 3:6) and (Hebrews 13:8) both say, He does not necessarily manifest His power or reveal Himself in the same way in every age.
 

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

God's will (His word), would restrict some of the things you could ask for. Otherwise we wouldn't need hospitals anymore, Just ask for the true gift of healing.

1 Cor. 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Good night, God bless
love 4JC

I do not speak in tongues.As a matter of fact iam not sure what my gift is.Though ive been praying that it would be revealed to me,iam starting to feel what it is,but iam not certain.I know this, iam nothing without him!

There are other gifts as well Jabez.  
If we are truly yielded, and submitted to Our Father in Heaven and ask Him to take FULL control of ourlives, He will never leave us.  He will purge us of the dross and contamination of fleshly things.  Then He places His commandments  in our hearts.  We then have the Fruits of the Spirit.  Then, whatever gifts the Holy Spirit chooses.  But, before anything can be done by our Father...we must show our courtesy and respect by telling Him we desire these things above all else in life.  That we want to be fully yeilded and to be a channel of His peace.  That we want to put Him before everything else in life.  And, we must mean it with all our hearts.  They can't just be words...we must be sincere.
Then, Father will begin to mould us just as a potter moulds clay.
We are then ready to receive the Fruits, and the Gifts.  This is through the Faith we have in Jesus, the Son of the Living God.

Love...Tamara.

The ONLY Gift I have is Eternal Life :)

Thank You Jesus

Brother Love :)

What is the difference between Speaking in tongues and Praying in the Spirit?

According to the Apostle Paul, there is no difference between  speaking in tongues and praying in the spirit, one can undestand this from these two verses, Paul has written herein;

1 Cor 14
14  For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15  What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16  Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

The word unknown[/b] in the KJV was added as a help word, not found in the original text.

Verse 2,makes it clear that even the person speaking in tongues, doesn not understand, what he is saying, since according to this verse, "he speaketh mysteries."and according to verse 14, it is unfruitful to his understanding; and, this point is emphacised by Paul since he states at these 2 verses, that his own understanding is unfruitful, this inspite that at  1Cor 13:1 That he speaqks with "tongues of men and of angels,"


And verse 13 of 1 Cor 14, in the light of verses 27 and 28, is given to understand that unless interpreted, what is being spoken in tongues is not understood by those who hear the manifestation of the gift of Tongues, and for this reason if there is no one to interpret the speaker should remain silent, since it edifies no one, but himself (somehow or other).

All the gifts are given that the body of Christ might be edified and blessed, and they are to be used for this purpose, only..


God Bless,

Petro

My question is,

How is it, those who possess the gift of tongues, understand what they say, when the scriptures are clear unless they possess the gift of interpretation, they cannot understand what they are saying, since they speak mysteries in the Spirit??

And almost without execption those who, say they possess the gift of interpretation, always claim to be speaking to man, instead of God, through the interpretation of prophecy.

In short, they turn what is interpretation of a prayer to God, into a message from God, to men.

In my twenty odd years of being a child of God, I have yet to come across one who, speaks in tongues, and prophecies, and will honestly state, that he is interpreting a prayer to God.

If it were not for my understanding of verse 1 Cor 13:10 in the lite of scripture, I would have to agree, tongues have ceased.

Blessings,

Petro

Petro

Hi Petro

Whats your take on "the Perfect"? And how does it effect your position on tongues? I had a longer post, but lost it. Some of the questions your asking and comments you made in your last post sounds like me three years ago. dejavu all over again.LOL

God bless
4JC

4JC,

You pose an interesting question, and what is even more interesting, is that I have been working on this very question form the last year or so, even thinking and studying on it, in these last few days.

Allow me to post the passage which sheds some light to the context, of "that which is perfect"

I am not totally convinced, that this is speaking of the written Word of God, it appears that this is the main point taken by those who feel, tongues  and prohecy have ceased.

But knowing that Gods Word, when it speaks to those who have ears to hear, addresses the truth in all the dynamics and dimensions of the point being addressed,

If I it can be said  this way.....

1 Cor 13
8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I never have accepted the teaching on this matter by this side that teaches it refers to the completion of the written scriptures, I simply have over the years accepted this verse at face value, and although it has been a preplexing verse for me, It never sounded odd, in the context I have always understood it, and what drives the context of the verse in question for me, is the following two verses.

Now the setting for the understanding of the verse, is in the context of charity (love) being the greastest attribute (Faith, Hope, Charity)  of those who possess Gods Spirit, since it most nearly associated with Gods own character or nature.

Paul in the verses which follow, speaks in the first person, saying;

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

Imediately I understand the previous verse, as connected to this one as that of needing  maturity to understand it.

And verse 12, even reinforces, the thought that somehow this "perfect which is to come" has to do with an individual   personal understanding, since it is clear, Paul understands something that is personal to him;

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part;but then shall I know even as also I am known."

I see the excersizing of the gift of tongues as, at the most a man praying to God ;

1 cor 14
2  For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
4  He that speaketh in an tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

And this ability to pray in the spirit, is a sign to unbelievers;

22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

There is more to this, but simply put, and to save pages of writing;

If this is true, (that speaking in tongues is praying to God), this will not cease until, Jesus returns to the earth, at that point we will see, him face to face, and will know [him] even as also I am known.

Now it is obvious to me that for Paul, this came with his death, and his going to be with the Lord, but for those who remain on the earth at His return, it will occur when He returns, since they will be the ones that look for Him.

There are also, two aspects of prohecy which is one the other things which will fail.

Prophecy on one hand is defined a speaking concerning future events in the name of God, while another deifinition is giving forth the word of God.

Consider the following;  When and if you give forth the gosple when speaking to someone you do both, you are giving forth the word of God, and you are prohecying their future judgement and of eternity in heaven or hell.

The question I have is;  As long as the Gospel is being preached on this earth, men are prophecying the Word of God.

The next point is that of knowledge, when has that ceased??,

It is clear God the Holy Spirit, is still bringing people to the knowledge of the truth of His Word, and giving undertsanding to know the nature and character of God, to those have neither.

But what I find more compelling is that WE Christians, are being made perfect,

I am not speaking of our position in Christ, since the Word assures us, that we are perfect in Him, but he is one, and we are many, and He out of two is making one, bring each in unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man;  Note,


Heb 4
13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Our faith is growing and according to the scriptures is perfected by love;

Gal 5
6  For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


1 Jhn 2:1-29
4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

These verses, are tied to the Love chapter of 1 Cor 13, and Love is called the greatest of the attributes of Faith, Hope at Love, by love we are made perfect and it is the single untiing factor that bonds the people of God, by FAITH.

1 Jhn 4
11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13  Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19  We love him, because he first loved us.

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


Blessings,

Petro

Petro,
 I too had difficulties with the "Perfect" being the completed scripture. Although in the beginning of my faith, I always just assumed this was my lack of understanding. I thought the blanks would be filled in as I progressed in my study and understanding. Little did I know.....

I tried to look at all sides of this as honestly, asking the tough questions as you are, putting commentaries against one another from people of different Theories concerning this matter, just to see what would shake out. there always seemed to be contradictions left unanswered, or at least I felt that some passages were stretched to the point of me being uncomfortable with how they were defined.

You and I see "eye to eye" on prophecy and knowledge. I trust you have read my earlier post, so you know where I'm at on this issue. I'm going to repost some of it with some minor changes and additions for clarification.

==============================================
        Does the closed cannon of scripture= the perfect?
              (At one time I believed this to be true)

But now, here are some reasons I have a problem with that:

A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians.
Nowhere in this letter (1 Corinthians) does Paul mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. Spiritual and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that.(Math.5:48) Completed holiness, our one day becoming what God now counts or reckons us to be.

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped, the two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17).

D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who "Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth". (Rev. 11:3)

E) We will see "face to face" (1 Cor.13:12).

F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known".

G) The verb "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temporariness of gifts. (For those who believe it will stop and then start again)

All other popular interpretations of "the perfect" Must pass the test, which eliminates the rapture, the maturing Church, and the second coming.

The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers.

The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the "perfect" and allows for the continuation of knowledge and prophecy during the church age, the tribulation, and the kingdom. It fits the context of Paul's emphasis on the permanence of love. It also fits his mention of our then seeing "face to face", which will come about only with our glorification, when we will be illumined by the very glory of God Himself (Rev. 21:23). Finally, again, only in heaven will we "Know fully just as [we] also have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13:12).

==============================================

I know I opened up a can of worms with this because this removes one of the obstacles for tongues being in use today (in their minds). Only one of them though. I guess what I mean is, it would be easy just to say that scripture is complete, and that's it. But we're obligated to teach/preach/say the truth, even if we have to write a sermon to explain it. I believe that the proof is there without the definition of the perfect, that tongues do not exist today. What worries me is that most people never take the time to look, they want quick and easy answers, and that's it.


I have a different take on the scripture you gave in reference to tongues. Consider the second and third passages when defining the first ones
(Note that Pauls whole point of chapter 14 is to make sure men are edified.)


1 cor. 14
2 For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

12:7
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal

===============
14:4 He that speaketh in an tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

13:5    (Love)
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

So I think your right on track to be asking the questions about tongues that you are. What do you think about the "perfect" being the eternal heavenly state of believers?

God bless
4JC

P.S. Did you ever think of these verses (below) in light of the bar mitzvah? In this, the boy becomes a man over night, or in a instant, I guess you could say.

13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Edit#2 lol What I mean is that the mind set of a Jew in terms of a boy becoming a man might not have been a gradual process but something that happens quickly. If this is so, then open the possibilities in defining vs.12. Think in terms of (son of the law).

Petro,
I too had difficulties with the "Perfect" being the completed scripture. Although in the beginning of my faith, I always just assumed this was my lack of understanding. I thought the blanks would be filled in as I progressed in my study and understanding. Little did I know.....

I tried to look at all sides of this as honestly, asking the tough questions as you are, putting commentaries against one another from people of different Theories concerning this matter, just to see what would shake out. there always seemed to be contradictions left unanswered, or at least I felt that some passages were stretched to the point of me being uncomfortable with how they were defined.

You and I see "eye to eye" on prophecy and knowledge. I trust you have read my earlier post, so you know where I'm at on this issue. I'm going to repost some of it with some minor changes and additions for clarification.

==============================================
Does the closed cannon of scripture= the perfect?
(At one time I believed this to be true)

But now, here are some reasons I have a problem with that:

A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians.
Nowhere in this letter (1 Corinthians) does Paul mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. Spiritual and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that.(Math.5:48) Completed holiness, our one day becoming what God now counts or reckons us to be.

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped, the two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17).

D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who "Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth". (Rev. 11:3)

E) We will see "face to face" (1 Cor.13:12).

F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known".

G) The verb "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temporariness of gifts. (For those who believe it will stop and then start again)
4JC,

Very good, I agree with everything you have posted, and I am amazed, that pratically everything you have written, made me feel as though I am answering my own post, I could not have articulated these poionts better than you have presented them.


I concur, but I have been known to overlook the finer points, so I am sure there may be  something that that has been overlooked.

And actually I have narrowed this done to these two possibilities,  that the perfect is;

Both the glorified state, and the perfected body of Christ, of which all the members of the church are.

Remember, that I said, Gods Word trancsends all dimensions and solves the dynamics at work when his word, is cast forth.

The individual member of the Body of Christ, actually is representative of the entire Body of Christ, and just as in the natural body there are many members, which grow together, the passage that needs to be looked at carefully is;

1 Cor 12
11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12  For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14  For the body is not one member, but many.
15  If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16  And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17  If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18  But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19  And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20  But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22  Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23  And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24  For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29  Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30  Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31  But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

In these there is a trememdous amount of information which needs to be dissected.

I have not done it totally, and although, when considering this in the light of just the church of christ, there are difficulties, but as you said;


True, and;

The gender neuter form of  that which is "perfect", in the context Body of Christ idea,  will pass the test, when looked at very carefully.

The verses that really set this off for me, which really got me to thinking was;

1 Cor 12
28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

I asked myself, for what purpose, where these set in the church?  I thought of verse 25 above imediately.....

Heb 11...........Speaking of the men who are mentioned in the Hall of Faith of the Bible..

40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

There is that word again, and it sheds much to the discussion.

I am pressed for time, and will get back to this as soon as possible........................in the mean time keep looking up..  

Petro

Yes, and at this point, it points specifically to the Body of believers, since in the light of verse 40 of Heb 11,   it makes it clear as a bell, that;
 they without us should not be made perfect.
But it is not a can of worms for those who stand firmly on the Word of God.
Actually it is a comfort to me, that I know and understand that this is a gift, given by the Holy Spirit, I do not possess this gift, and do not discount it being a gift still in effect today, and from what I understand of it, and its use it is for the purpose of edifying and building up the Body.
And as long as it is excersized within the confines of scripture, especially the command of the Lord, then I would not speak aghainst it, the problem I have is that I have yet to find a place where this gift is being excersized in accordance with Holy Writ.
It has been so abused that, it actually is looked upon as a schism, within the Body of Believers today.
And it is sad, that there are incontinent people who consider themselves to be chidren of God, and yet, are so misinformed and ignorantly choose to usurp the word in a way that ignores the sound teaching of scripture that speaks to these gift  which iof used properly can and will edify.


My same thoughts, and concerns, it appears as thou a thought has been forced upon the teaching of  something that has not been well thought threw.

Well, what is clear, whether at home, or in the congregation, the man that speaks in tongues does not speak to men, but to God, this point is very clear, whats missing here in this verse is something that is assumed;by pro-tonguers, and that is that the man speaking in tongues will always speak loud enough to be heard by the congregation.
For instance, the man that is subjected to the Holy Spirit an possess this gift, would (or should ) adhere to the Lords command and keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.  (1 Cor 14:28), so you see, one can speak to God, and be silent about it, this is why I call it, PRAYING..
So verse 2, is not meant to encourage one to simply stand up and start speaking at will, which seems to be the way it is excersized today..


Cont'd...........


God Bless you..

I cannot comment on this since I know next to nothing about Jewish rites, and observances, it seems to me that some of these celebrations are not scriptural, I may be wrong, what you have raised sound plausible to me.

Blessings,

Petro

Petro,

I don't have a lot of time. I was busy writing another post on another topic. I guess it takes me longer than most to write these things. I went over your post quickly and you bring up some interesting points. If there were only 100 hrs in a day I might find enough time to do this lol. I don't have my own computer, so I can only use this one at certain times. The part that you first quoted from me was borrowed, condensed, and paraphrased, so I can't take credit for it. My writing skills leave a lot to be desired, so I do that sometimes if Im in "perfect" agreement, for the sake of it being shorter and being more effective, or to the point. Man! look at the time. I'll be bock.

God bless
4Jc

4JC,

One thing I did make clearer, is that;

I don't worry about those that spesak in tongues, since I feel I understsand this gift well enough and am comfortable enough to say I am able to discern whether it is of God or not, and the test is;  is it being excercised according to the Lords commandment (1 Cor 14:37-40)

So if it is from God it will subjected to the Holy Spirit, and it will be excerscised decently and ion order.

As I stated in another post elsewhere, a church I visited in Oregon, was praying for the gift to be excercised in accordance to scripture, but in over one year of praying about it, no one has stepped up to the plate, and has spoken in tongues , to my knowledge.

So, regardless of my undertanding of this or not, if it be of God, it will occurr and we will know if we are there.

So in the spirit of verse 39,  I simply give it room to manifest itself, and I believe this is the way it ought to be viewed by all Christians.

Then again this is only my viewpoint...

Blessings
Petro

Hi Petro,

I hear what you're saying.  8)
 
So many things to say, I don't know where to begin. I think I'll start with this and see if you agree or disagree.

13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

We have two Greek verbs being used here.

katargeo This is the Greek verb used to describe what will happen to prophecy and knowledge.

pauo This is the Greek verb being used to describe what will happen to tongues.

=============

katargeo means to "reduce to inactivity" or to "abolish" Both forms of the verb in verse 8 , and in verse 10, are passive; that is, something or someone will cause them to stop. That something is the coming of the Perfect.

pauo means "to stop, to come to an end". Which when used of persons, indicates intentional, voluntary action upon oneself. Used of inanimate objects it indicates reflexive, self-causing action. The cause comes from within; it is built in.

So we have two different ways of these three gifts being stopped.

The gifts of prophecy and knowledge will stop when the Perfect comes.

The gift of tongues will cause itself to stop.

Note; in 13:9-13, tongues are not mentioned. This, by itself may not seem like much, but when you put it together with what was said above it starts to speak loudly. Also note the highlighted parts.

13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (no tongues)

13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (Note; that only the verb katargeo is used here.)

13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

Oh well, that's all I have time for today.

God bless
4JC

Hi Petro,


I've always had a hard time making the connection with the perfect as it is used in 13:10 and the perfected body of Christ. Usually I need to be totally frustrated, exhausting all possibilities, and on the verge of giving up, then, that's when God reveals something. It's almost like He wants maximum effort first. So I'll keep trying, if there's something there, He will show me eventually.

I agree "the Perfect" often has the meaning of maturity or completion, but to say it's the perfected Body of Christ still presents problems for me. F presents a problem for this theory when it applies to individuals or the whole body, maybe E fits because in the Church, when its individually gifted people come together as a whole, they should be, as Christ's body, if you will, if that's what you're trying to say in terms of "face to face", but I don't see how F "fully know" can fit this. Also, wouldn't the Church reaching maturity or Perfection then result in its completion, resulting then in the Rapture? And if so we still have the problem of prophecy during the Tribulation and Kingdom. It takes me an hour just to get into the right frame of mind so I can study this lol. There are so many angles, you know? Like I said,  F  still seems to me like a major hurdle for this position to overcome. Maybe it works with the combination of both positions as I quoted you saying above, but I'm not fully grasping how it all ties together when applying both. I'll keep studying and see what else I can come up with.

God bless
4JC

4JC,

I am sorry, I hadn't answered earlier, as I was debating if I should comment on the subject, and polute, thge work you have been bringing forth fro the scriptures, with my own ideas and thoughts, I have to say, alot of what I have worked up is not totally connected and I would rather not put forth my own theories.

So i thought I would just share the similarities of my ideas of why and what led me to look closer at the theory, that "the perfect" could very well be the Body of Christ, and of course include the individual members.

The most glaring truth for me was, that the scriptures speak of "babes in Christ", "being born of incorruptible by the Word of God", by the "will of God",  "drinking milk", "solid food" an so on.

What really got my attention, was that babies, speak, (not in tongues but close to it) and as they grow, they even communicate with their mothers, by speaking when noone else even understands them, their mother does.

They cannot eat solid food, Paul even spaeks ofm this about new born christians at 1 Cor 3:2, Heb 5:12-13, 1 Pet 2:2.

The Christian, as a babe, who drinks milk is unskilled in the use of the Word, and maturity to some extent, comes when he is able to eat solid food, which excersizes his sense, and eventually leads to full blown maturity, while one is going thruough the process others follow and others are ahead in the growth.

When Jesus, prayed to the Father, he said this;

Jhn 17
20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Clearly this speaking of the Body of Christ.

So far I have to agree with you, it is a state of perfection, and it may not be attained in this life.

I say this for this reason;

Heb 11
38  (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

On a personal level, it may be possible that individually one  may live perfectly before the Lord, in Christ, having all subjected to His perfect will, however, because of verse 40 of Heb 11, it cannot be the perfect permanent state.

This is why I said I don't discount tongues as being viable today.

Because 1 Cor 14;

2  For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This clearly speaks to me of onje praying to God, since this is exacly what we do, when we pray to God, we speak to him, as our heavenly father and He speaks to us thru His Word.

And prayer has not ceased..a baby, eventually ceases speaking baby talk, because he comes to knowledge in commanding his native language.

As for Prophecies, unfortunately the KJV, has not interpreted this passage in the best possible light, consider the English-Greek Interlinear, version;

8  Love never fails; but whether prophecies, they shall be done away;......

To me this simply means they shall be fulfilled, and future prohecies will not be prophecied no longer.

This verse is translated verbatim in the New American Standard Prophecy Edition,and the Greek supports it perfectly.

As for Knowledge, the question is has it been done away with??

My answer would be NO, since many are still coming to the knowledge of God.

The Prophecy of Jer 31, at verse;

31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


This prohecy is still being fulfilled today, John said;

1 Jhn 5
20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Refer  (Eph 1:17, 1 Pet 1:3)

As long as the Holy Spirit is bringing men to the knowledge of Him, who takes away sin, it would appear to me knowledge has not been done away with.

What other knowledge could verse 8, of 1 Cor 14, be speaking of??  

Paul said;

Phil 3
8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

And this after He had met HIM on the road to Damascus.

We know Him, now by FAITH, and at His comming, we will know Him Face to Face..

Blessings,

Petro

PS, I really enjoyed your posts, they show a hunger to mine the word of God, for the nuggets of the truth, which lead to Godly wisdom.

Praise Him.  And NEVER give up....hope, it is given to us to know the mysteries of the Kingdom..


God Bless.

The second contender, for the title "The Perfect" is LOVE.

Love is an essential characteristic of God, and comes only as a gift to the world. (Jhn 3:16)

Not long after the fall at the garden, we read the Cain slew Able his brother.  The fall was such that perfectlove as manifested by God was affected by the sin, and clearly we see it brought on a spiritual death of Adam and Eve,  as well as the sacrifical death of the animals which provided the skins as covernings.

Can Love be that which is "Perfect"??

There is that possibility.

The problem which I have encountered is its connection to Knowledge.

No knowledge is necessary to love perfectly, if one has been given the gift of perfect love.

Love should be the motivating factor in giving out the Gospel of Life.

This is my own opinion, but I put it forth as something which may be considered for further study..


Blessings,

Petro

PS  True Godly Knowledge with regard to my previous post, is attained by revelation, so that coming to the truth requires personal revelation from God.

And this is Gods will, that all men everywhere know HIS WILL.

Col 1
9  For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

4JC,

More solid food to chew on..

With reagrd to the Lords prayer;

Jhn 17
23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Notice these verses;

Heb 10
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Paul writes;

Heb 12
23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[/b]


1 Jhn 2
5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 Jhn 4
12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.


Can't help but understand Love is the key, in perfection the man of God, notice Heb 12, above the spirits of just men made perfect and the church of the first born,  (whose names?) which are written in heaven.

Blessings, again

Petro

Those of us who teach and believe the Gospel of the Grace of God, do not believe anyone has any Spiritual Gifts, in this age of Grace. We have the C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E Word of God "THE BIBLE."

Grace & Peace

Brother Love :)

It's the C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E Word of God, that is, "THE BIBLE" that teaches us that we do have spiritual gifts.

What's the point of having a C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E Bible if you just ignore what it says?

LOL :)

I dont ignore the Word, and if you want to pretend you have some gifts go ahead, as the world says, if it feels good do it.

Brother Love :)

I don't pretend.

If you want to pretend that you follow the Word then by all means!

 ;D

The O-N-L-Y Gift you have is E-T-E-R-N-A-L Life and thats only if your a believer.

Now believe that player.

Brother Love :)

You want me to believe something that contradicts scripture?

Noooo thank you!

This I believe:

"He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

"When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."

(What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fulness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
(Eph 4:8-14)

"For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." (Rom 11:29)

"Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." (1 John 5:10)

 Keep pretending 3wells, someday I pray you will understand the Word of God.

Grace & Peace

That is my understanding also, Whitehorse, and it is consistent with the facts of Scripture.

(1) "Tongues" in Scripture is the word often used as a translation for "languages" (Greek glossai and dialektos are both words for "language").   So when the apostles, who were Galileans and normally spoke Aramaic, began to proclaim "the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:11), the Holy Spirit listed the variety of languages in verses 9-11, and as you can see there are about 16 different languages which were spoken supernaturally on the day of Pentencost.

(2) The gift of speaking foreign lanuages supernaturally was not given to absolutely every believer as an evidence of "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" (modern Pentecostal teaching) but was given as a gift to those who were chosen to receive this gift ("Do all speak with tongues?" Rhetorically asked by Paul in 1 Cor. 12:30.  The obvious answer is "No").

(3) Tongues was "the least" of the spiritual gifts -- First [in importance and order of listing] apostles, then prophets, then teachers, then miracle workers, then healers, helpers, rulers, and finally "diversities of tongues", followed by interpreters (1 Cor. 12:28-31).  Love [agape] was and is God's greatest gift, since it is God Himself (for God is love) [1 Cor. 13:13].

(4) Paul would rather have spoken 5 intelligible words of prophecy than 10,000 unintelligible words in a foreign language [even though supernaturally given] (1 Cor. 14:19).

(5) Tongues [languages, not babbling in glossolalia] as a gift would CEASE, as would prophecies and supernatural knowledge (1 Cor. 13:8-9). When could they cease?  When that which was in part [partially written down revelations which ultimately became the New Testament] became "perfect' [or complete] at the end of the apostolic age.  The apostle John wrote the last book of the New Testament and sealed up supernatural revelations at the end of this book (Rev.22:18-19).  When the New Testament was completed around 90 A.D. Paul's prophecy regarding tongues, prophecies, and supernatural knoweldge became a reality.

(6) The earliest church leaders after the apostles [Apostolic Fathers] confirmed this by making a clear and deliberate distinction between their writings [which resemble Scripture to a remarkable degree] and the writings of the apostles.  The apostles themselves acknowledged each other's writings as "Scripture" [Divine revelation] (see 2 Pet. 3:15-17). [Also, none of them mentions tongue-speaking in the post-apostolic chruches].

A complete Bible precludes further Divine revelations, while the end of the apostolic age precludes tongues.  Today's tongues bear no resemblance to those of Scripture, and the practice of "tongue-speaking" today flouts the commandments of Scripture (women speaking in public assemblies, speaking without interpreters, etc.).  Note carefully that today's "glossolalia" [babbling in a human "pre-language akin to a baby's] is admitted to be different from "glossai" -- speaking a foreign language fluently and supernaturally without having learned it.  Linguistic research into modern tongue-speaking has established this beyond the shadow of a doubt.

True spirituality is not evidenced by "tongue-speaking" but by the fruits of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  Tongues are not among the gifts listed in Eph. 4:11 or Rom. 12:4-8  or 1 Pet. 4:10-11, since they were not designed for the edification of the saints but were meant to be a "sign' to unbelieving Jews (1 Cor. 14:20-22).  No spiritual gift was given for self-edification (1 Cor. 14:4-5) which Paul rebukes soundly, but for the edification of the whole Body of Christ. Yet tongue-speakers talk about edifying themselves, as though God really approves of this.

What word the author used tells us nothing. What other word would he possibly use?

The manifestation described in Acts 2 does not operate in the same way as described in the doctrine of tongues, written by Paul decades later. Acts 2 was a fulfillment of Joel 2:28 which describes the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of tongues in 1 Cor is based on a different prophecy - Isaiah 28:11 - a prophecy concerning "foreign lips and strange tongues". The tongues spoken in Acts were not spoken with "foreign lips" but by Jews.

Consider the striking differences between the two:

Acts: Understood by men. No need of an interpreter
1Cor: Not understood by men. Interpreter needed

Acts: Spoken by Jews. Refers to Joel
1Cor: Spoken by Gentiles. Refers to Isaiah

Acts: Public manifest. No concern for what people think
1Cor: Church gathering. Concern for what people think

Acts: No rules for how this gift operates
1Cor: Provides rules for how the gift should be used

The only way to arrive at the conclusion that the tongues in 1 Cor were foriegn languages is by turning an historical account into doctrine and then make that doctrine override clear doctrine written by Paul years later, at a time when the church was no longer a relatively unorganized group of people standing in the open streets.


Agreed.


Agreed.


It is often argued by tongue-opposers that the word "unknown" does not appear in the original text. Just as the word "unknown" does not appear there, neither does "foreign language", so why add something that is not there? At least "unknown" does not contradict scripture. "Foreign language" does:

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit."

This verse also proves that tongues could not have been used to preach the gospel as some seem to believe.


That is an extra-biblical theory. There is nothing in the scripture that indicates any "completion" or "perfection" of scripture. In fact, the scriptures have never been imperfect. The only perfection that scripture indicates as something occuring in the future is the perfection of the saints.

Since God encourages us to establish truth on the basis of two or three testimonies then you would expect that anything of importance to be scripturally verifiable. Cessationist theories are not. They don't pass the test.


The bible does not preclude any such thing. Prophecies external to scripture existed both then and now. Check it out. Even the book of revelations, which you use to prove that all gifts of prophecy and revelation would cease (which by the way is not what that verse says), teaches us that this is not so. The book of Revelations proves that prophecy is still in effect after the book was written. Check that out too.

Also, if Revelations 22:18-19 means that God has stopped speaking then what do you make of Proverbs 30:5-6?


Wrong.


That's because they are different. The tongues Paul speaks about in 1 Cor are not "speaking a foreign language fluently". Scripture show us this very clearly.


So "linguistic research" is what helps you to interpret scripture?

Evaluating truth based on human research is almost as deceptive as basing it on "post-apostolic churches".

Why is it that the same people who dogmatically proclaim that scripture is complete are the first to lean on extra-biblical arguments to prove their points?


The word "Jews" does not appear in the text. It is missing for a very good reason. Jews are not the only unbelievers on this planet, and Corinth is a very strange place to have a sign to the Jews, don't you think?


Paul does not "rebuke" self-edification. Why would he rebuke something that scripture encourages:

"But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit."

What he did do was correct a misuse of the gift because the Corinthians were not being mutually edified. Does this problem exist today? No. Today we have a totally different scenario. I have never attended a service and gone home unedified. I'll leave it to you to guess why.

OK Brother Love, point taken. Maybe "fulfillment" was the wrong word, but the reference is there in Acts - I didn't put it there, I promise!  ;)

Satan adjusts his tactics to mimic what God is doing (II Cor. 11:13-15).

Well why don't you take authority over him and cast him out... instead of tickling his belly?

We should be like you and Benny Hinn :)

Brother Love :)

In your case, that would be an improvement.  ;)

LOL :)

And maybe I will start up on own T.V. show on TBN :)
I will call it The Goose-Bump Hour :)
Brother Love :)

I think you'd be better off sitting in your TV sofa reciting Psalm 1 a few hundred times...

Brother Love, I think 3 wells is Jim Jones, be careful, dont drink the Kool-Aid.

Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers.

But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.

He is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither.
Whatever he does prospers.

Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away.

Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"

Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine."

Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers.

3wells your in that seat, is it HOT?
Are you a Sunday School Teacher at the AOG?

Brother Love :)

sav lasav sav lasav / kav lakav kav lakav

 :)

Brother Love :)

HOW TO KNOW YOUR SPIRITUAL GIFT

THERE ARE THREE MAIN PASSAGES IN THE BIBLE CONCERNING SPIRITUAL GIFTS

I COR 12

ROM 12

EPH 4

WHAT IS A SPIRITUAL GIFT? THAT SUPERNATURAL ABILITY GIVEN BY GOD, NEVER BEFORE KNOWN BY THE RECIPIANT, TO FULFILL A SPECIFIC PURPOSE.

I COR 12:1 CONCERNING SPIRITUAL GIFTS, I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU IGNORANT

I COR 12:7- LIST THE GIFTS

WORD OF WISDOM

WORD OF KNOWLEDGE

FAITH

HEALING

WORKING OF MIRACLES

PROPHECY

DISCERNING OF SPIRITS

DIVERS KINDS OF TONGUES

INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES

THERE IS NO CLEAR WORD OF GOD DEFINING THESE GIFTS

I COR 13...CONTINUES THE THEME OF SPIRITUAL GIFTS

I COR 13:8-13 READ

IT IS CLEAR THAT AT THE TIME PAUL WROTE I COR. THAT THE GIFTS WERE IN EFFECT

BUT,

I COR 13:8 GIFTS BEING DONE AWAY WITH

WHETHER THERE BE PROPHESIES, THEY SHALL FAIL

THIS DOES NOT MEAN PROPHECIES CONTINUE, BUT FAIL TO COME TRUE

PAUL SAYS THERE WILL COME A TIME WHEN THE GIFT OF PROPHECY WILL CEASE TO FUNCTION OR BE IN EFFECT

WHETHER THERE BE TONGUES, THEY SHALL CEASE

THIS DOES NOT MEAN PEOPLE WILL STOP TALKING

WHETHER THERE BE KNOWLEDGE, IT SHALL VANISH AWAY

THIS IS NOT SAYING THAT A TIME IS COMING WHEN MAN WILL BE STUPID

THESE THREE GIFTS REPRESENT ALL THE GIFTS OF CHAPTER 12, AND ALL THESE GIFTS WILL BE DONE AWAY WITH AT A FUTURE DATE

Grace & Peace

WHY...WHEN

I COR 13:9

FOR WE KNOW IN PART

WE PROPHESY IN PART

THE CONTEXT HERE IS KNOWLEDGE IN AN INCOMPLETE STATE

PAUL HAD, AT THIS TIME, ONLY RECEIVED A PART OF THE KNOWLEDGE HE WAS GOING TO RECEIVE

I COR 13:10

BUT WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT IS COME THEN THAT WHICH IS IN PART SHALL BE DONE AWAY

NOTICE: THE CONTEXT THAT WHICH IS IN PART = KNOWLEDGE

THAT WHICH IS PERFECT = KNOWLEDGE SO,

WHEN THE PERFECT KNOWLEDGE IS COME THE INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE IS DONE AWAY WITH

SOME TEACH THAT THE PERFECT IS JESUS CHRIST, BUT THAT IS NOT TRUE. THE CONTEXT MENTIONS NOTHING ABOUT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. THE CONTEXT IS KNOWLEDGE

HE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT A PERSON, BUT A THING WHICH IS COMING

IF THIS IS ABOUT CHRIST COMING BACK,

THEN THE GIFTS MUST COME TO AN END WHEN HE COMES BACK, (I COR 13:8)

BUT WE SEE THAT IN ACTS 2:16 THAT PETER QUOTES JOEL ABOUT THE SPIRIT POURING OUT IN THE LAST DAYS WHEN CHRIST COMES BACK, WHEN GIFTS ARE INCREASED NOT STOPPED. THE GIFTS ARE IN MAIN OPERATION AS A SIGN OF THAT TIME.

THE WORD PERFECT, IN THIS CONTEXT, MEANS MATURE, COMPLETE, FULL

PHIL 3:12 ...ALREADY ATTAINED..ALREADY PERFECT

3:15..LET US AS BE PERFECT

PAUL IS NOT SAYING HE IS SINLESS..PERFECT DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN SINLESS

II TIM 3:16-17 SCRIPTURE FOR US TO BE PERFECT..MATURE...COMPLETE ..THIS IS THE LAST EPISTLE OF PAUL. NOTICE THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE PERFECT, TO KNOW IN FULL, BUT AT THE TIME PAUL WROTE TO THE CORINTHIANS, THEY DID NOT HAVE THE FULL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD BECAUSE IT HAD NOT BEEN WRITTEN, SO THEY COULD ONLY KNOW IN PART.

TODAY WE DO NOT NEED THE GIFTS BECAUSE WE NO LONGER KNOW IN PART, WE HAVE THE COMPLETED WORD OF GOD, TO MAKE US PERFECT UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK

Grace & Peace

You have been taught that these gifts are supernatural "signs" of Gods power that were necessary for evangelism because the canon of Scripture had not yet been completed.
You often site 1 Cor 13:8-12 were Pual says

 8;Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9;For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  
   
 10;But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.  
   
 11;When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.  
   
 12;For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.  
----------------------
In other words, these gifts cease when "that which is perfect shall come" which you interpret as the completion of the canon of scripture.
The context of this Scripture clearly relates "that which is perfect" refers to the second coming of Christ. When Christ returns we will no longer need spiritual gifts because then, of course, we will be in completeness & will live in perfection. There is simply no scripture that clearly states the gifts of the Spirit would cease after the first century.

History repudiats the notion that the supernatural gifts ceased with the closing of the canon of Scripture at the end of the Apostolic age. Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Ambrose and others literaly mention the use of spiritual gifts like tongues and prophesy long after the first century. And of course the Reformers believed that the gifts of the Spirit were in perpetuity. Many great church leaders today still believe in the use of Spiritual gifts.

To claim that the use of Spiritual gifts have ceased is in my opinion, is to spit in the face of both historical and contemporary evidence.
Rom 11:29   For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God has not changed his mind concerning Spiritual gifts We should all abide in Pauls instruction the "eagerly desire" spiritual gifts and to "not forbid speaking in tongues" (1 Cor 14:39--1 Tim 4:14)

Prophesy, tongues and healing are no different than teaching, mercy-showing and service. Just as the later gifts compliment the ministry of the Word, so should the former. They are not meant to compete with Scripture for the place of authority and guidance in our lives, but in Christ's body they each provide a speacial ministry of grace wich the believer needs to "grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ" (Eph. 4:15)

The Holy Spirit gets alot of bad press. If you go to a "Holy Ghost meeting", the chances are the Holy Spirit is not going to be there. If you go to a Jesus meeting, the Holy Spirit will be there because the Holy Spirit does not draw attention to himself, but to Jesus.
 Alot of crazy things are done in the name of the Holy Spirit, but to go to the extreme to say that all the gifts have ceased, cannot be shown in scripture.

You say that  the "perfection" in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the completion of the Bible, and since we have the Bible today, the gifts have passed away.
The "perfection" in verse 10 refers to our perfection, not the completion of the Bible. The context itself clearly tells us this, as it talks about "we" and "I" knowing in part, then knowing fully, being a child, then growing into a man.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
11 When I was a child,...When I became a man,...
12 ...Now I know in part; then I shall know fully,...
If we say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible, then we are actually saying that the Bible  went through these human growth processes.

The passage clearly talks about us (not scrolls of scriptures) knowing partially then knowing fully, and that when the latter happens, the gifts of the Holy Spirit (that help build up and empower the church) will no longer be necessary and hence be done away with.
v12 "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face."
Again, to say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible is to also say that the Bible once saw a "poor reflection" of itself in the mirror, then saw "face to face" with someone once it was completed. This, of course, is silly.

We don't see the Lord "face to face" now. He is still at the  right hand of the Father, interceding for us, since His ascension. What we see is a "poor mirror reflection" of Him (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Because we are in Christ and Christ is in us by His Spirit, we reflect His image, though poorly, when we "look in a mirror".
Despite the dim reflection, the more we behold Jesus, that is, to learn more about Him, the more we are transformed from glory to glory into His likeness (2 Corinthians 3:18).

This transformation is still ongoing for every Christian, but it will be completed when we see Christ "face to face"  no longer as a poor reflection in a mirror (1 Corinthians 13:12).

When Christ comes back for His church, we would be perfected, complete knowledge with glorified bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 3:16,17, 2 Thessalonians 1:1).


Do you cessationists know it all? Has "know fully" or "perfection" happened to every Christian as cessationists believe? No. Just because we have the Bible, functions of evangelism, pastoring (shepherding), and teaching  carried out by men who "labor in the word and doctrine" does not mean that we now know perfectly.
Some cessationists then argue that we should not take "know fully" in absolute terms. They say that "know fully" just means knowing God's salvation plan.

Well, the qualification is in verse 12 ; "even as I am fully known". We are fully known by one person only- God. So, have we come to the place where we know fully to the same degree and standard that we are fully known by God?

Hi Jabaz,
You have rec'd some very good replies on your question concerning tongues.
I just wanted to add that a person who has this gift does have control over it and can speak in tongues at will. This is usually done at private prayer time.

Do your research from the Bible first.   :)

God bless,
bluelake

Hello Tamara,
Your short message tells me that you understand this gift. It certainly seems to cause confusion.
I too have been blessed with prayer language. Those who are interested in a study on this issue may want to go to 1Cor.12 and 14.
Merry Christmas,
bluelake  :)

I agree with your study.

The Crusader

Completed Word Of God means all of what the Bible teachs has come to pass.Is that true for you?

What?????????????

Jabez:

Do not be misled by modern tongues -- which are glossolalia or babbling.  The tongues or more accurately languages which were spoken by the apostles were real human languages which they had never learned and could not have spoken without a miraculous ability to do so. Study Acts 2:1-13.  These are not modern babblings.

Also do not get wrapped up in the gift of tongues since Paul himself told the Corinthians to consider prophecy as a greater, better, and more edifying gift.  However, since we have a complete Bible, neither prophecy, nor tongues, nor supernatural knowledge are operative gifts.  Study 1 Cor. 12-14 carefully.

Posted by: Sower  Posted on: February 02, 2004, 09:22:58 AM  
Quote from: Jabez on September 17, 2003, 09:22:23 AM
Iam going to do a research on the speaking of tongues,and i will report back with what i find.
 
 

Jabez:

Do not be misled by modern tongues -- which are glossolalia or babbling.  The tongues or more accurately languages which were spoken by the apostles were real human languages which they had never learned and could not have spoken without a miraculous ability to do so. Study Acts 2:1-13.  These are not modern babblings.

Also do not get wrapped up in the gift of tongues since Paul himself told the Corinthians to consider prophecy as a greater, better, and more edifying gift.  However, since we have a complete Bible, neither prophecy, nor tongues, nor supernatural knowledge are operative gifts.  Study 1 Cor. 12-14 carefully.  



Study 1 Cor. 12-14 carefully.  
Very good advice, let us do exactly that! There is a major
difference in the tongues that are a prayer language, given at
the time of the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and the tongues
that are one of the 9 gifts of the spirit listed in the 12'th
chapter of Cor.
Many people, and even more sadly, many people in the
christian community have failed to understand this difference.
There is a cost for the penticost expirience. That cost is a
willingness to totally and completely sell out to Jesus.
Let us begin our research in the book of Joel:
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
This began at the time of penticost:
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Take care to note the words "as the Spirit gave them
utterance".  If we continue thru the book of acts there are
many more instances of the infilling of the Holy Ghost; and ;
in each case they began to speak with other tongues as the
spirit gave them utterance. .
Let us look as well in the 14'th chapter of Cor. and see what
else Paul had to say about tongues.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
We know as well that he said that he was no respecter of
persons: there is nothing given to any man, that he will not
give to any other person who is willing to pay the price of
total submission to the will of God.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
In the book of Hebrews we learn that he is Jesus Christ, the
same yesterday, today, and forevermore.
In the book of Isaiah he said he was the Lord God, I change
not! These are his promises to us. If he is the same, and
changes not, and if he is no respecter of persons: then show
me where the gifts of the spirit have ended, show me where
he decided to change his ways of perfecting the children of
God.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Many people use the above verse to say that the gifts of the
spirit are no longer active: let me ask this question in response

Are we perfect,? is the church perfect? have we manifested
ourselves as the sons of God? Have we done greater works
than our messiah? no? then surely the power of the spirit of
God is still active in those who will allow him to have total
control of their lives. There is a time that  they will be done
away with, and that is when the lamb of God returns as the
lion of the tribe  of Judea. When the King of Kings returns then
will that which is perfect be here! maranatha(come quickly).

Let me end with this statement from Paul-who by the way
came thirty years after the day of Penticost:
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Interesting don't you think!

Respectfully yours in Yeshua"
 ;D ravenloche  ;D

The scripture says we shall know even as we are known (1 Cor 13:12), and in Revelation 21, it says;

4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; .........

What is it which is perfect, which is to come, causing that which is in part to be done away with.  Verse 1 Cor 13:9-10.

The answer I am certain is found in verse 12 of;

1 Cor 13
12  For now we see hrough a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known.


The just shall live by faith, but somewhere in the future we will know assuredly, and see HIM with our own eyes, Job said;

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see, for myself; and mine eyes shall behold, and not another, though my reins be be consumed within me. (Job 19:25-27)

I am sure, this is speaking of the perfecting of the faith we presently live by, which will turn to sight in that day at the resurrection of our glorified bodies.

How else, will we see the Lord face to face.

Blessings,
Petro

The GIFTS enumerated in EPHESIANS 4:7-16, and that these alone are necessary for the building up of the Body of Christ.  

Your friend and brother

The Crusader
<:)))><

DITTO ;D

A4C
TODAY WE DO NOT NEED THE GIFTS BECAUSE WE NO LONGER KNOW IN PART, WE HAVE THE COMPLETED WORD OF GOD, TO MAKE US PERFECT UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK

I dont agree with that..How do you reconcile this verse?

1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

"that which is perfect" being a "thing"; for me, would be The New Jerusalem.

Still hasn't arrived, for me!

Gracey   :)

Heb 12:22

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
KJV

Rev 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Some how the 3 verses reconcile to each other .... :P

Right on Crusader, Right On

1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

A4C and all it is not hard to see,these gifts are still given as the spirit sees fit.If what your saying were true,all knowledge would be lost as well,do you claim that?Neither you nor me can sway the spirit as to the gifts he gives.Would you say no to him?

The GIFTS enumerated in EPHESIANS 4:7-16, and that these alone are necessary for the building up of the Body of Christ.  

AAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!!

Ephesians 4:7
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8-Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9-(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10-He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11-And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;[u/]
12-For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13-Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14-That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15-But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16-From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

I read that as,Jesus gave us gifts.And gave us verse 11.Just because we dont agree on this issue doesnt mean much.I beleive in the gifts,and you dont.

Does repeating this over and over again somehow make it right?

....uuuhhh, sorry. Usually I'm not so impatient. Generally, I do have a little more grace (but apparently I need more)    ;)

Gracey

Just for you Gracey, The GIFTS enumerated in EPHESIANS 4:7-16, and that these alone are necessary for the building up of the Body of Christ. ;D

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
This verse nullifies tongues for this age, the dispensation of the grace of God.

A4C:
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
This verse nullifies tongues for this age, the dispensation of the grace of God.

Me-
Are you saying this verse nullifies all gifts or just tongues?

 Paul very plainly says that the sign gifts would disappear after the completion of the word of God. 1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. These 3 gifts, prophecy, tongues, and knowledge were given to communicate the Word of God until the Word was completed. Once the word was completed they failed, ceased and vanished away. And yet there are those who continue to “mislead, trick, and lead astray ” the uninitiated for profit.

What do you do with a sick apostle?

I once talked with a woman from Far Rockaway in Queens. She had given up on the Lord. A few years earlier her husband had been sick with cancer. She prayed for his healing. Her pastor and the elders prayed and anointed him. The whole church prayed for him. And then he died. Now she was convinced that the Lord had let her down, or maybe even that He didn't exist at all.

Despite all the talk about "divine healings," the death rate has remained the same, one a piece.

Here again, knowing about the "administration of God's grace" that the Lord Jesus revealed to the Apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:2-3) is the answer-this time to the problem of unhealed Christians.

Early in Paul's ministry, the Lord gave him the power to heal everyone (see Acts 19:11-12, 28:9 for notable examples). But there was always one person Paul couldn't heal ... himself! He wrote to the Galatians, "it was because of an illness that I first preached to you." (Galatians 4:13-14) Another time Paul prayed three times for the Lord to take away the thorn in his flesh. The Lord said, No.

Later, after the close of the book of Acts, the Lord withdrew that power to work miracles. Paul had written in 1 Corinthains 13:8 that the miraculous gifts would "cease", and they did. No more gift of tongues, no more gift of prophecy, no more gift of healing.

Timothy was sick with "frequent illnesses" and Paul advised him to "use a little wine" for his stomach (1 Timothy 5:23). No more miraculous cloths or gift of healing. In his last letter Paul writes about a faithful co-worker named Trophimus and says, "I left Trophimus sick in Miletus." (2 Timothy 4:20). The miraculour gifts had ceased. In the "administration of God's grace," the Lord Jesus doesn't promise to heal all our sicknesses or take away all our problems.

It was a sick man who wrote, "I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation..." (Philippians 4:12). He had learned that His grace is sufficient. Do you know the peace and power of God's Grace For Today?

http://www.gracefortoday.org/unhealedchristians.htm

1 Corinthians 10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

WHats this talking about?

Despite all the talk about "divine healings," the death rate has remained the same, one a piece.

A4C if you dont know dont waste a post,iam looking for answers.

I have given that answer many times, you dont want to believe it, sooooo you dont want to see it. And now I will stop wasteing my time with you.

Grace & Peace

1 Corinthians 10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


If you have answered what the perfect is iam sorry i missed it,from what i understand the perfect could mean the completion of the NT,or the second coming.Healing still happens how can you not see that?If God' Will permits it, it will be done not even you can stop that.

 All of the evidence indicates that the "perfection" which Paul described is our transformation from mortal, corruptible bodies to perfect, immortal, incorruptible bodies. There is no suggestion in any of these verses, nor anywhere else in Scripture, that the completed New Testament is the "perfection" which Paul spoke of.

Paul said that certain spiritual gifts will only cease when perfection comes, meaning that we will no longer need these gifts after we are raptured and we receive our perfect, glorified bodies. Since the Rapture has not yet happened, all of the gifts of the Spirit are still functioning in the body of Christ, including tongues. This means that God still wants us to be empowered by the Holy Spirit for our own personal ministries just as Jesus and the apostles and the early Christians were. There are no other passages anywhere in the New Testament which tell us that any gifts of the Spirit will ever "die out."

Gee, thanks I got my very own!   ;D  ;D  ;D

Hhmmm, would you explain this part to me, please?

the building up of the Body of Christ

the building up of the body of Christ... the church? (believers).

But, a prayer language has nothing to do with building up the "body of christ" it's a personal thing. An extraordinary communication between man and God, as is all prayer.

And before you ask, no I don't have a prayer language. I haven't asked for it either. But I do have spiritual gifts, others in my Chord of Three have a prayer language, the gift of prophecy and even the gift of healing.

After having seen my friend healed totally, completely, and fully and miraculously of cancer and, the doctor's amazement at the time of surgery, you will never convince me there is not a gift of healing. That gift was given to my friend to "increase my faith". It was a gift from God.

Gracey

QUESTION:

Many today insist on claiming the promises of  Israel. What relationship do we, the Body of Christ, have with the promises of Israel?

ANSWER:

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
NOTE CAREFULLY there are those who wish to claim Israel's promises, but they do NOT claim her curses. You can't have it both ways!!!
 
<:)))><

True

In accordance with Paul's teaching in I Corinthians 12-14, the temporary need for spiritual gifts that existed at the beginning of this dispensation has been superceded by the completion of the written word of God. The "perfect" written word of God now having come, spiritual gifts have been "done away."

Believe it or not, thats the bottom line.

Your friend and brother

The Crusader
<:)))><

That presuposes you believe "The Perfect" to be the written Word of God....which I do not.

(http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif)
Gracey

Thats your problem, not mine.  ;D

jabez,

I saw youyr post where you confessed you do not believe Jesus is God.

You obviously do not possess the gift of FAITH them, nor discernment.

How come??, these are very basic gifts given to Christians.

Pray to God the Father that He give faith to believe, what His Spirit teaches...He will sthrengthen you and help you in your unbelief..

Anyhow..............with regard to theat which is  "Perfect"

 I have been working on this for quite sometime, although I am not absolutely positively sure of it exactly ,  what I am sure of is that it pertains to each individual member of the body, it is not something or someone else.

I said this somewhere, I forget if it was here, on this forum, but it seems to me, “the perfect” as spoken of in 1 Cor 14, is when faith is made sight for each believer, or in simpler terms; when FAITH in such a one that he has entered into maturity, and can see the real and not just the shadow of the real

I say this, and  would use the men of  FAITH listed at Heb 11, as examples.

It says at verse  13;

All these people were still living by faith when they died.  They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed from a distance.  NIV

They saw them by FAITH, while they lived by FAITH...and embraced them.


Now we know why the word says;  The just shall live by faith, ............... from faith to faith.

When and if we come to this place, all our arguing and kicking at the pricks will cease.

Are we there,  ............. yet??

PS  I don’t care that much for the NIV, yet it helps me, to see things clearer in the modern english...




God Bless,

Petro

Sorry, the verse in question is at 1 Cor 13:10.

But just to make the point I failed to make, is that this scripture cannot be speaking of the eternal life, because, in its setting, it goes to say, that whenit comes that which known in part shall be done away with.

These men of Faith at Heb 11, new and understood perfectly, that is why they were able to go living looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher oftheir FAITH.

If you don't think this is so, read verses 26 to Heb 12:2.

But what makes this more clearer is verse 11-12 at Chapter 13 of 1 Cor.



Blessings,

Petro

Petro

I know you read that thread,but did you read it all?

1 Corinthians13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The Perfect has not come yet.Are you saying Paul knew there was going to be a NT as we know it?

jabez,

Sorry, but I do not understand your question..totally.

But to answer your question, I will say, absolutely Paul not only knew the NT was to be as we know it, he also, knew all about the end times destruction of the heavens and the earth, and the new heavens and the new earth, He not only wrote of them, Peter wrote about him, and what it was he (Paul taught, preached and wrote).

Look at and read 2 Pet 3:8-16. there Peter speaks of our brother Paul, here is a portion of it;

15  .......................even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

This is why you need to pay particular attention to what He said, concerning Jesus.

Blessings,

Petro

1 Corinthians13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I beleive the Perfect to be Jesus.

Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

jabez,

The problem with your conclusion is that Jesus had already come, by the time this was written, the holy spirit also, had come, and was already in the world, so it can't either one of them, it has to do with us, and our understanding, since the followup verses speak of "the perfect"  as something which we lack, we lack while in  the flesh.

Positionally we are perfect in Christ note, Heb 10:14.

Yet we are not, perfect while in the flesh, yet, the verses according to Pauls understanding, has something to do with knowledge, this is why he says;

11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

What verse do you rely on, that this is speaking of Jesus??


Blessings,

Petro

Petro,

We will not be perfect until Jesus returns.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1.Can we agree Jesus is Perfect?
2.Can we agree Jesus is the Perfect Offering?
3.Can we agree that we are not Perfect?

Perfect-without flaw or fault

jabez,

I am not going to argue about this,

But it is clear we are perfect if we live our lives in Christ;

Christ praying to the Father said;

John 17
21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;

Then the apsotle said;

1 Jhn 4
18  .................He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

And then Paul says;

Heb 13
20  Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21  Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Christians that obey God the Spirit do so because they can see spiritually..I wonder why some will not.


Blessings,

Petro

jabez,

Iam sorry, I should not have siad that,  forigve me...


To answer your question, I wouldn't make the claim that I could ever be perfect while I live in this body, and I know this is because of a lack of Faith on my part.

The promises of God are given to us that we may grasp them by faith, and by Faith nothing is impossible with God.

Gods Word seems to imply that men who believe God in this life are viewed and can be perfect.

Now, I already quote some previous verses, but Note;

Eph 4
10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


It is clear to me that this scripture is not speaking of Jesus, but the members of the body.....corporately.

Blessings,

Petro

Those that believe that they must have a gift in order to do the work of the ministry are greatly diminishing the value of the Word of God. The Bible is the one perfect gift of God that today allows us to carry out the work of the ministry. In order to function as mature believers, established in the faith, we must stop seeking after the gifts, which have passed away, and start using the gift of God's Word.

<:)))><

Crusader
Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved "gift" from God. When anything good is done from us for the church, God gets the glory. Right?

To everyone

14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD.

14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Note: Paul did not say for a sign and edifying and a personal prayer language when he told us the purpose of tongues.
Tongues are for a sign.
This is the purpose for tongues, period. The gift of interpretation was given so the believers could be edified while the sign was being given to unbelievers. Othewise there would have been confusion, things happening within the church that some would not understand or receive any edification from. God is not the author of confusion. Since the sign is no longer needed, the secondary use went with it.
 



 

Good

<:)))><

Theres no need to forgive,i hold nothing against you.I appreciate you following up with me on this.Thank you!Also i agree with the verses you have stated,but i beleive the final perfection will be when Jesus calls us home and our bodies are changed.

Crusader    8) :)

God bless
4JC

DITTO ;D

The Gifts

All right – tongues – easy if you take the Bible as it stands and understand how God deals with Israel as a nation. Most make issue of prayer languages, interpreter or not and never cover what tongues are really for.  Let’s get down to the basics.  Remember, God deals with Israel as a nation differently than he deals with the body of Christ today.  

According to the Bible tongues are for a sign (1 Cor 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign,…).  The verse didn’t say tongues were for your personal edification, prayer time, public worship service, etc.  Tongues are for a sign.  Now, who require signs in the Bible?  The Jews require a sign (1 Cor 1:22  For the Jews require a sign,….).  Why did the Jews require a sign?  It was a part of their history.  When God and Moses had their conversation at the burning bush Moses said (and I paraphrase), “They are not going to believe me.”  The Lord said, “I will give you some signs to authenticate your ministry.”  Moses went to them and did signs and wonders and they believed.  When the Lord came to Israel in the gospels he came with signs to authenticate his ministry and some believed. In fact the Pharisees came seeking a sign - Mat 12:38  “Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.”  After Christ arose he gave the apostles the signs to authenticate their ministries they went about doing signs and wonders.

Next, tongues were not for believers but for unbelievers – “not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: - I Cor. 14:22.  This is the clincher.  Moses went to Jews who were unbelievers of his ministry.  Jesus went to an unbelieving Israel with signs.  Paul went to unbelieving Israel with signs.  Also, the Jews were “unbelievers” in the sense that they did not believe that God would not bless the Gentiles.  In Acts 2 where the signs and wonders took place Peter preached to thousands of “unbelieving Jews” and they believed after the message with signs and wonders (Acts 2:43).  

Today tongues are used in churches for believers – in other words done for the edification of the speaker or hearer, which is contrary to I Cor. 1:22 and 14:22 (note both verses are 22 – can’t beat the book!)

Now, when you use your “tongues” in your church service are there any unbelieving Jews there?  Maybe and maybe not but most likely not.  When you are using “tongues” in your private prayer closet are there any unbelieving Jews there?  

Let’s wrap it up – When God deals with Israel as a nation he uses signs and wonders as authentication.  God is not dealing with Israel as a nation today – God is dealing with individuals.  Tongues are for a sign and to unbelievers, not believers.  Tongues are a sign of judgment to the unbelieving Jews.   Also, unbelievers are “believing “ Jews in Acts who were didn’t believe the Gentiles could get in on the blessings.

Tongue speakers are not following this today one bit.  I really don’t care about how good tongues feel to you and how excited you get when you utter your “tongues”.  When you pray and speak in tongues are you doing it as a sign to unbelieving Jews?  I don’t care if you saw millions at once speaking in tongues.  What you saw were millions of deceived people led by an unclean spirit.  They may be nice, polite, Bible-quoting people but they were deceived while they were nice, polite and quoting scripture.

I know you have a lot of verses you get from I Cor 14 but remember Paul is rebuking a carnal church of a misuse of a doctrine to the point where he calls them children in malice.  Why you think you can find anything positive there to support your tongues beats the fire out of me.

Don’t judge tongues by your experience – judge your experience by the Bible.  Anybody can think they speak in tongues.  I’ve even seen people “practicing” their tongues so they wouldn’t lose them!  Please, people!  The great men of God of old wouldn’t and didn’t mess with that stuff for a minute and God used any one of them more then 10,000 tongue speakers today.
But you say, “Yes, but I still know what I know and I speak in tongues and others do so that proves it!”  Fine, base your doctrine on feelings and experience and ignore the plain teaching of scripture.
Again, one last time with feeling – UNTILL YOU UNDERSTAND THAT GOD DEALS WITH ISRAEL AS A NATION DIFFERENTLY THAN HE DOES WITH THE BODY OF CHRIST TODAY THEN YOU CAN FORGET UNDERSTANDING THE GIFTS!

May God bless -  ;)

hello,

Is there anyone that has discernment?
Or wisdom?

Yours in Christ,
Halfgospel


 ???

Some will say I KNOW because all my logic and human reasoning and a great preacher and a good book told me so. But  the Word says God hides the things His Spirit  reveals from those who have "the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law" and reveals them unto babes.  

Go to the true source. Prayer.

Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 14:2  For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Satan - He is a living and personal devil (John 8:44; Eph. 2:2; I Peter 5:8; Rev. 12:9). As God has changed His dealings with man, Satan adjusts his tactics to mimic what God is doing (II Cor. 11:13-15).