ChristiansUnite Forums

I was wondering whether you could pray for me. I'm not sure whether I've got any faith at all, sometimes I believe and sometimes I just can't, however much I want to.

I'm suffering from clinical depression, having to take lots of medications which aren't working, and I've been self-injuring for some years now too. Could you please pray for strength for me? Its all getting too much for me.

 :'(

Broken,
I will definitely life many prayers for you to the Lord. I pray that He grant you peace and strength through these difficult times.

I, too, suffer from depression and know that some days can be very hard to get through; some unbearable. Just take one day at a time.

May God richly bless your life,
CJ

hi Broken
   i will remember you in my prayers and i hope our Good Lord will give you the faith you need in Him and also heal you from depression. Remember always that WITH GOD ALLLLLLL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE, never doubt God, keep the faith high and He will do it for you. Amen
    Nick
 

Broken,  the message I read in your quote "my bloody wrists Are all I have to offer for penance"  is so sad...the truth about your Heavenly Father is, He doesnt want you to bleed for Him, for He already did that for you, and His blood can heal all your sin, or sickness or pain, all there is left for you to do is accept His love for you, and ask for deliverance thru the power of His blood. I will pray for you!I thought of this song ...it`s words are beautiful and go along with what i`m trying to say...

The Blood that Jesus shed for me, Way back on Calvary,
The blood that gives me strength from day to day,
It will never lose its power.

It soothes my doubts and calms my fears, And it dries all my tears;
The blood that gives me strength from day to day,
It will never lose its power.

Chorus:
It reaches to the highest mountain. It flows to the lowest valley.
The blood that gives me strength from day to day,
It will never lose it's power.

I'm praying for you too, Broken.  

(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WgDdAqsczTlJgwqj2gZwKFyBPrfUXp36NkF!d5JG3iXlkQISdYKB8mQMYtDN2C7Q4Y3WduCwgrcTEXiFUrzC1YfIW7KruY7pxKnOgalFjCYRpKIPqODLDYVWAMwJZfXayP1IY9HsHNk/bear-doing-summersault.gif?dc=4675414557557999483)

(hehe)

God Loves You

In the quiet
Love is reaching
Its yours to hold
Be still and know that
Even when you`re
Lost and lonely
No hope is gone
You`re not alone

Far beyond the
Understanding
There`s a hand that leads
If you believe
Through the darkness
See the light
Remember God loves you

The road ahead is
Long and winding
With hands of faith
You`ll find a way
And when the journey
Leaves you weary
You can rest in the comfort
Of heaven`s arms;
sweet loving arms

Peace will follow
Peace be with you always
As you go
For now you know that

Through the darkness
There`s a light
Remember God loves you

When you open up your heart
His love will meet you were you are
He will always be a part of everything you do
He is here to set you free
And give you all the strength you need
To carry on
To carry on

Through the darkness
See the light
Remember God loves you
Remember God loves you

- Jaci Velasquez

Welcome Broken,

I think IrishAngel said it all in the poem she posted. God Loves you. He wants you to love yourself too!!!!!! I know life is hard, we all have had hard times at some point in our lives. My prayer for you is you put all your troubles, worries, fears on the lord. He is the only one who can lift this depression you are under.

I personally think God allows us to become depressed so we draw closer to him. He wants to be the center of each and ever one of our lives, and he will use what ever means he needs to make that happen.

My prayer would be that you draw closer to the Lord, read your Bible let it speak to your soul. I pray God shows you what it is that keeps you depressed and gives you the strenght to get through it.

A few years ago, I was very depressed and wanted to end my pain. My husband and I were very disconnected. Our relationship was rocky. I felt my world was falling apart. I didn't know how to fix the problem. I was so enraged all the time because I didn't know what was wrong or how to fix it. I just knew I couldn't go on in the marriage this way and wanted a divorce. My husband didn't and asked if we could go to this weekend retreat. It turns out it was a Christian weekend retreat. The message we recieved that weekend was alsome!!!!!! It touched both our hearts and changed both of us. I can say I haven't been depressed since that conference. After the conference I got back into my Church again. And now that God is the center of our life, our marriage is much better and I no longer suffer from depression.

I know God will do the same for you and your issue, as long as you allow him to do that for you.....I will keep you in my prayers.
                              God Bless you  Terri

Hi Broken,

I just took a look at your website. It really scared me. Made the hair on my arms stand up. The only way you will break free from your depression is to not fill your head up with all the dark side stuff. You need to totally get all that out of your life, if you truely want to break free.

Put your interested in the Lord and your depression will leave you.
                           God Bless you   Terri

        Broken;
      Do you know Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?
      That is where to begin for faith.

Thank you for your prayers and messages, everyone :)

I know that if I have faith then I can get through this - the problem is that that faith comes and goes. One minute I feel like there is no possible way that God could not exist, and that He's with me right then and there, and the next not only can I not find God, but the whole concept seems ridiculous. I do try - I keep on praying even when I can't find any belief, and I read my bible often (for one thing - there are a lot of scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament, which speak about depression/loneliness/lack of faith, which is very helpful) but its not exactly ideal, because I don't think I can really say I'm a Christian, as I lose my faith so very often.

Terri,

Most of my website is just there to express the "dark side", because if I don't acknowledge it, it just gets worse. I tend not to look at my own website when I'm feeling better :) but its helpful when I'm feeling down, and at least I can be sure that there isn't any occult or pornographic material on there, as there is on some other "darker" websites.

Forrest,

Yes, the atonement, and that sort of thing. The trouble is that at various times, Jesus, and all He stands for, seems just words without real meaning or effect. Thats part of the problem. Well, that and the fact that I've always been more drawn to the OT than the New (maybe I should become Jewish ;) ) even though I do try to believe what the New Testament says about God and Christ.

Hi Broken,

I checked out your website again today. In your website there is a picture of Jesus tied to a dirt board and dirts by it saying take a shot or something like that. It was very upsetting to me.

I don't know what you believe, but as long as you have the devil in your life God will be absent!!!!! If you truely want to be free from depression, than you need to repent from your sins, including the self mutalation.

In your website it says that this self mutalation is done to scracific for God. Well, God wants no part of that for his children. That is the very reason he sent Jesus to die on the cross for us. So we his children would not have to suffer.

As long as you entertain the dark side you will always have depression. The Lord is unable to hear you, because you are wrapped up so tightly with the devil. The devil does not Love you. He wants you to take your life so your soul can be his. He knows you are so far from God and he has his grip on you so tight. The only way to break free is to get Good Christian counciling. And destroy your website, and break free from the dark side!!!!!!!

You sound young and intelligent. I really pray you break free from this life style or it will bring you down.

I hope what I have said sinks in. I hear your pain and despire and I want to reach out to you. God is all about Love, Happiness, peace, joy. He has nothing to do with self mutalation or suffering that is the works of the devil. I hope God helps you to see it that way!!!!!!!!!

Always remember God sent his only begotten son to die for you and I. Would the devil die for you?
                         God Bless you Terri

Dear Broken,

I will pray for you daily. I ask you to spend some quiet time reading your Bible. I think that Ephesians 1 might be a good place to start. You will find here the Gospel of God's Grace, God's Love for you, and God's Gift of a Personal Saviour for you, Jesus Christ. Jesus will accept you if you accept him. Even now, Jesus loves you and wants you to accept Him into your heart.

In between times of reading God's Holy Word, I ask you to look at the beauty of God's Creation. Walk in the park, look at the trees, look at the flowers, listen to the birds, and know the MAJESTY OF THEIR CREATOR, ALMIGHTY GOD. Go back to your Bible and know that you are reading God's Holy Word. Relax and try to enjoy the Peace and Beauty of ALMIGHTY GOD'S CREATION AND HIS HOLY WORD.

Ask Jesus to come into your heart as your Personal Saviour. Ask Jesus to forgive you for your sins, and HE WILL. Ask Jesus to guide and direct your life and pray from your heart that HE WILL GIVE YOU PEACE. Ask Jesus to have your life IN HIM; that HE will direct your path. I ask for these things in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. Amen.

Hi Terri,


 ???  I'm a bit puzzled. I don't recall putting any pictures of Jesus on the site? There is a picture of Munch's Scream in the SI section though. Are you sure you've got the right site? Its http://www.geocities.com/drearoblivion (http://www.geocities.com/drearoblivion). In fact, the only time that Jesus is mentioned on the site is when I was talking about the influence of the plucking out eyes bit in Matthew on self-injury. And thats more of an observation than anything else, not a condemnation of Jesus or anything.


Some people SI to sacrifice themselves to God - plucking out an eye to save themselves from hell, for instance. Its a disordered thing to do, no matter what their reasons - I don't support it. My position on SI, and my opinion of what the Christian position on SI should be, is that it is a disordered coping mechanism which, while not evil and sinful, is not helpful either.


Terri, I have nothing to do with the devil. The only thing on my website which even mentions the devil is an essay by Paul Carus on "The devil in verse and fable", just talking about literary use of the devil.

Hi blackeyedpeas,


I'll do that :) I've mostly been neglecting the NT and reading Psalms, so I probably should start reading more in the New Testament.


My trouble is, blackeyedpeas, I've asked, many, many times for just that. And for a while things are ok, but then I lose faith again and have to start over once I get back on track. I read something in hebrews about how you can only repent the once and then if you fall away, thats it, so I'm not at all sure whether there is any point, if falling away the first time (quite a few years ago now) means that whatever I've done since means nothing. I do keep on trying, because I'm not absolutely sure, and in the hope that I'll be given mercy, but its hard, considering that I can't seem to hold on to faith.

Hi Broken,

The Dart board with Jesus on it was on your website, it could have been something someone else put there but it was absolutely on your website.  It was in the part of your website that had pictures of people cutting tatoos into their arm with a scalpel. And a photo of a man hanging from two huge fish hooks in his back. Pretty sick if you ask me.

This kind of behavior is not of God nor is it for God. You are messing in the wrong territory. I am very concerned for you Broken, I think you are young  and trying to find a place where you fit in. I pray that you would stay away from all the dark side stuff.  Let God fill you with his Love.

Would you talk about Jesus on your website? I didn't read anywhere on your website, saying you where a Christian?
You need to break free from the dark side/ gothic life style, and then God will answer your prayers and change you forever!!! He has great blessing for you if you would let him in. It might be hard at first, but I know God will help you change your life!!!!

Broken, I have a daughter and it scare me to death that when she is a teen she would be curious about this lifestyle too. If you were my daughter I would do everything in my power to get you away from this life style!!!!!!! You don't see it but all the gothic stuff is the work of the devil. It has nothing to do for God. No Christian would harm their own bodies, the very body God gave us. Our bodies is his temple and we must love it and take care of it.

I pray God shows you the truth.. The devil has been filling your head with lies. Hurting yourself is no sacrific to the Lord, he cries every time you cut yourself, because God knows you are not loving yourself. God made you perfect in his eyes, you are his child and he Loves you. You need to love yourself!!!!!!!!!! My heart goes out to you. I really hope my words are helping you.

Broken I will keep you in every pray I say to the Lord and that is many prayers in one day. God Bless you  Terri

 ??? I don't have any pictures like that on my website, because they trigger people, there aren't any cutting photos, no pictures of scars (mine or anyone elses), or even pictures of razors, blood, or knives. I don't want to be responsible for someone feeling the urge to SI. I've checked my website, in case someone hacked it, but its all as it should be. Are you definitely sure you got the right site? Its got a layered background with red silk as the back, and black where the text is?


Because I'm not sure I can call myself a Christian, Terri. I do say that on my site, that I can't call myself anything because my belief in God changes with my mental state. I can hardly advocate that others believe in Jesus when I'm not always sure I do so myself.


There are instances of such in the Bible, you know. Jesus, of course, being the supreme example. I'm not saying SI is a good thing, because it certainly is not, but its a short-term solution. I don't know about the "gothic stuff", I like horror stories, literature from the gothic/romantic poets and writers, that sort of thing. I don't see what is wrong about that, or where that is contrary to the Bible.

Hi Broken,

If you are so concerned about others wanting to cut, than why have the links on your website? You may not have put them there but you gave someone permission to add to your webpage. You are the designer of your website so if you are so concerned about others seeing your site and viewing those pictures why not remove the links from your site? That's what someone who is really concerned would do.

In your website there is an area Self Injury/ Depression is there not?  Click on self injury/ depression. Than click on SI and body art. Once on that page of your website you have links on your website to Sacrification Experience, click on sacrification experience and you will see  photos of people who have cut tatoos into their skin with scalpels, razors, ect. These are all accessed through your website. So what are you talking about, it is a part of your website.

You say the self injury is a short term solution. I don't understand. Solution to what your problems? We all have problems but we don't go around cutting and mutilating our self over them.

I am sorry I really don't understand where you are coming from. Why do you hate yourself so much? That is the only explanation I can find for someone to do such a thing to their body.

I am still praying for you Broken I really pray God touches your heart!!!!!!
                          In Gods Love   Terri

         Terry;

     I know many do not realise but Christ was a desendet of King David, Moses, He was Jewish, and so were all the founding Fathers of the faith, the Christian faith is Jewish in origin.  
   

Hi Broken,

Thanks for the personal Email. The website you provided was great. That Christian website, was all about helping people with this problem. Wether they are Christians or not it will give hope to people with this problem.

I still think you might want to check out your website, because I don't feel it offers the same help as the website you personal emailed me. And you might want to do away with the photos of people, with tatoos cut into their selfs. I just don't think that will help anyone going through what you are going through, if anything it will encourage people to cut more. Or make them believe that this is okay behavior.

You said it your self  you stay away from your website when you are feeling good. So you know in your heart your website can trigger negative emotions in even your self.  So why not use your experience with this and reach out to others(through your website) in a positive way,and in return I bet it will help you as well.

Well, I hope you get what I am saying, I am not trying to attack you at all! I really want to help you, and I pray that is what I am doing. I don't know you, only throught this computer, but you have touched me, and I am very concerned about you. Your in my prayers!!!!!!!!
                God Bless you    Terri

Ah, I get you now Terri :)
You had me really confused there! Its an external link about cosmetic scarification, to the only site I could find which even discusses the possible link between self-injury and body art. Its not quite my choice of site to view, but I thought it was a useful link. There is a warning about the pictures on there (though I haven't seen any ones of Jesus or of the fish-hooks), but I'll make it a more obvious warning about both pictures and content.


I like it too :) Though there are a number of other websites I'm also keen on. There's one called Self-Injury: A Struggle (http://www.self-injury.net (http://www.self-injury.net)) which I like, but mostly because the site has a lot of expressions from people who SI.

The Christian site, btw, for the others here, is called the Lysamena Project on Self-Injury and the URL is http://www.self-injury.org (http://www.self-injury.org)


Hmm, you may well be right there. The stuff on my site is mostly a summary of a book about SI, and that book isn't a self-help book so much as a book for psychiatrists. I can add some things which might be a bit more helpful than a discussion of medication!


Well, thats mostly because I'm not in a "normal" state at the moment, so its easy for me to get depressed by things I read or see, so when I am feeling good (which isn't terribly often), I try not to break that feeling :)


Well, there are a lot of reasons why people cut. Some of it does come from self-hate, which I have to admit to having. Sometimes its to stop disassociating, feeling like you're in a dream. Its also - for most people, including me - something to stop suicide. Its odd, its like all emotion gets sort of pent up, and its a way to let it out without harming others, and its a way to release some of the tension of suicidal thoughts without actually going so far as to kill myself. Thats what I mean about it being a short-term solution - obviously not a good one, but the only one I can grab hold of.

Thank you for your prayers :)

Hi Broken,

I'm soo glade you finially have seen what I'm talking about with your website. Sure hope you can fix it.

Thanks for explanning why you cut or why others cut. It's really hard for someone who doesn't use this form of abuse to understand it.

Broken I really hope you search out Christian help. I pray you have really good doctors, to help you. I don't know why you hate yourself, but know that their are people who Love you!!!!!! God is the main one. I would hope and pray your parents, and friends love you as well!!!!!! Think of all the good things about yourself. Try not to focus on this cutting stuff. Take a vacations from it!!!!! Think of things you enjoy doing or use to enjoy doing before you started this. Reclaim your life.

When I am feeling down or trouble, I take a day for myself. I pamper myself. I take a long hot bath and soak in it till I am a raisen. I put on up lifting music.  I do my best to think of positive things or I try to be greatful for all the wonderful things God has blessed me with. Or I phone my best friend the one and only who can always cheer me up when I down. I surround myself with happy people when I down, and stay away from the negative ones.

Well, Hope and pray today is a good day for you.
                         God Bless you Broken    Terri

Hi Broken,

IrishAngel here has a really nice website called Shellysplace, with a nice tribute to her brother and a subsection too for the ladies, and children.

If your 'puter plays music, it's really uplifting--each section has its own tune...

I visit it just to listen awhile...

http://www.geocities.com/shellysplace_nb/

I've made the warning stronger about those links. I didn't realise it would be offensive - the thing is that self-injurers get sort of used to seeing simple "trigger" signs, and realise what to expect, and I didn't realise that others aren't used to those sort of warnings!


I have heard of (stated) Christian doctors and counsellors, but I've never actually heard of any practising in the UK. I suppose there probably are some - but I can't afford to get help which isn't paid for by the state. I have enough trouble simply paying for the prescriptions.
I am getting help though, its just that I don't think that seeing a psychiatrist or another doctor by itself can accomplish much. I suspect that the strength to get better comes from within - or from God - rather than simply from doctors or drugs. Thats really why I'm asking for prayers, because if I can regain my faith, if I can really believe again, I can get through anything.


I do try that - I go out an awful lot now, just to be with people who care for me, and I for them, and not to be so...introverted. But, I live alone, and my flat has a lot of rather negative associations - naturally, as its when I'm alone in here that I've felt the worst, and its here that all the self-injury occurs too. It is a lot harder to get away from yourself when you're alone, though I've been reading a good deal (books have always made me feel better, no matter what they're about), and writing a great deal too.


Actually, today has been better than I've had for some time :)

Symphony,

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check out the link :)

"I suspect that the strength to get better comes from within - or from God - rather than simply from doctors or drugs. Thats really why I'm asking for prayers, because if I can regain my faith, if I can really believe again, I can get through anything."

This statement shows far more faith than I have seen in many who claim to have much faith Broken. The one Great Physician is  able to heal you, body, mind and soul! Keep reaching out to find Him, He`s reaching for you! Whisper His name, that name JESUS, He will answer you, and in Him is everything you need and so much more!

Hi Broken,

Your post was so wonderful to read!!!! You sound soooo full of hope and that is great!!!!! God and hope is what you need to pull you through this.... it sounds like you know that already.

Also it's nice to hear your not alone with this that you have good friends to help you. That is the best thing to not be alone when you feel like hurting yourself.

I had a thought about you today. Maybe God has allowed you to experience this because he wants to use you to help others  with this same problem? He may be calling you to become more spiritual and to walk in his light by his word so you can reach other with this lifestyle?

I sometimes wonder why some people suffer so much and why others who are not Christians have it easy.I know only the Lord knows why. So the only thing that make sense to me is he has allow some to suffer much so they will be able to relate to others who suffer the same and  help them.

If you enjoy reading here is a book that might help you. I just bought it yesterday. I haven't read it yet but it looks really good.  

"Just Enough LIGHT for the Step I'm On" By Stormie Omartian.
                 (Trusting God in the tough Time)
Hope your days continue to be good days, and from here on out just keep getting better for you!!!!
                          God Bless you  Terri

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken,

I think you are headed in the right direction. I also firmly believe that Jesus is the best medicine. I can assure you that many are praying for you daily. I can also assure you that Jesus will never leave you or forsake you. You may have stumbled with your faith if you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour. If so, Jesus is still with you with every step. I remember one post from you that mentioned you lost your faith and wanted it back. If you were a child of God, you are still a child of God. This is the beauty and power of the Gospel of God's Grace. When you stumble, Jesus is still with you and will never leave you. Pray for forgiveness, and you will be forgiven as if it never happened. Yield to the Will of God and what He wants you to do with your life. Many Christians describe the Will of God as a voice from the heart about right, wrong, and what you should do. The Holy Spirit lives in your heart. The more you listen to your heart, the greater your fellowship with Jesus. The more you pray and ask for guidance, the greater your fellowship with Jesus. Pray, ask, listen, and obey. Jesus will never tell you to harm yourself.

I pray for you daily and hope you will also pray. I pray that God gives you guidance and peace. I ask these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQDdAmIat2n5cfjYcJ2FBmgmxcpXDZB9a2H8mvkl3fGpZNFH1D5G9srtctdh3Ty2A22OuJCYXYXutb8rPcYlMaIrSiWDjDACQw0xVqZawe9!UkenKCz6HBB04uF3AEob/dogdayafternoon.jpg?dc=4675407420105273575)

Ah, unfortunately that hopeful note didn't last.
I OD'd last night, and spent the night and today in hospital, hooked up to heart monitoring machines and shaking like someone with the DTs from the drugs. Had to have some long conversations with a psychiatrist, but I was allowed to refuse their offer of a week or two in a mental hospital, and I'm back home now.

Our hope is in Christ Broken, His grace, His forgiveness, His strength, nothing good in ourselves, for if our hope depended on that, we would all perish. Keep looking to God, ask Him to do  for you, what you are not able to do on your own. Welcome back!

Psalms 139:7-16
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall fall on me," Even the night shall be light about me;
12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

Hi, Broken...

am praying for you..
tl

Hi Broken,

I'm really sorry to hear that!!!!!! Not really sure what to say, but I am glad your atempt didn't work!!!!! If you need someone to talk to we are here for you. Everyone here has you in their prayers.

I'm praying you get back to your good place, soon!

God knows your problems, please pray that he lifts the weight off of you, so you can begin to recover. I know he hears our prayers but he wants to hear from you as well. Please open your heart to him tell him all your fears and worries and ask him to remove them from you. And he will do that for you. He is the only way to get through this. Please trust in him.

Do you get the Family life radio station in the UK? That is a really great ministry. I listen to it everyday. It's really growing on me. At first the music didn't appeal to me, but with each day I listen the music is growing on me.

We are all praying for ya, I know you going to pull through this!!                        God Bless and Good night
                                          Terri

Hello Broken,

I pray that you are at a turning point in your life. You already know there is another direction you could take. Maybe some quiet time and some counseling wouldn't be all that bad. There is nothing to be ashamed of in accepting help and counseling. That one or two week stay might be just what you need to make up your mind and be determined to go in a positive direction. I bet they would let you bring your Bible with you. I don't know where you live, but a voluntary sign-in in Oklahoma also means a voluntary sign-out. They might also be able to change or stabilize your medication and make you feel better about making positive decisions for your future.

I'm not trying to push you into doing something you don't want to do. I'm simply asking you to think about it and maybe give it a chance. In Oklahoma, the stay and the medication would be free. If the same is true where you live, it's worth considering.

In the meantime, I promise that many will be praying for you. Jesus does not want you to harm yourself: He wants you just as you are to yield and follow HIM. The Holy Bible describes many things of the world as walking in darkness. Think of darkness as many of the things you know are wrong and make you feel bad. You can choose to turn your back to those things and WALK WITH JESUS IN THE LIGHT.

I pray that God will lead you away from the darkness and INTO THE LIGHT OF JESUS CHRIST. I ask these things in the Name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Thank you, bep...  (http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/fairview/162/roseslt.gif)

Hmmm, I wonder how Broken is doing today.  Should be about 5 or 6 p.m. on Sunday eve, in UK, about now...

(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0bQCzBK8fkZw0DC0v0nZu7KTCHgSKr98!OOJ1eKpDeSwM2ytltMEN5aAfhS4acKKjyiGFv9m!w1gF!ufY3JRi4rxNLe5Pe8LKoGiECsiSx9XUBz09vvw4wLIu90j31o8p1aS655vUcpwYWgXzzRrN9tl8DT3inMj1/!cid_001101c21fc8$3af43b80$0100007<a%20href=)

Praying for you broken!

Not so good, Symphony.

Looks like there won't be any need to voluntarily sign myself in, blackeyedpeas, my psychiatrist is talking about having me put away for an indefinite time by the state for being a danger to self.

 :(

Which means I can say goodbye to any hope of employment or a good relationship with my family anymore.

Which naturally gives me a lot of reason not to make another attempt at suicide.  ::)  

Anyway, I've not had the energy to even think about praying, or about God lately. I don't really see the point. Sorry for wasting all your time.

"...put away..?."  Hmmmmm...

That is some HEAVY stuff, Broken.

The Lord can work miracles there, too, Broken.  WhereEVER we are...

Believe Jesus, believe Jesus, believe Jesus...

I'm praying for you RIGHT NOW...(In Jesus' Name)

(smilie face here)

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken,

You didn't waste our time. We have been praying for you, and we will continue to pray for you. Try to look at things in a positive light and use this opportunity to turn your life around in a direction that will have you happy and make your family proud. The direction you were going was down, and worries about job and acceptance should be the last thing you think about. Your opportunities for a good job and acceptance by your family will be much better when you head in the right direction.

I pray that you take this opportunity to pray for guidance and healing. You are very young and have your whole life ahead of you. Welcome the treatment and welcome JESUS. I ask these things in the name of JESUS. Amen.

Are you still around, Broken?

Wow, Broken, things certainly changed since last Fall.  Did you know I still have a lot of your posts, from then, (hehe)?

Sweet sister, you are NOT a waste of time! God created you with purpose and he loves you. He has promised to finish what he started in you and this will be!!

We will continue to pray for you. May God keep you in his care and give you the grace to walk this thing out. He will be there with you.

God Bless you!

Broken,

What an interesting name!  The idea behind it,  I am unsure of but I could not help but observe it and was compelled to explore to learn more about what you had to say.  Broken to me implies many things, mostly not good but one good thing is a broken spirit for God.  Let the Lord have complete control over your person,  in mind, in body, in spirit,  to be "broken".  This could be most liberating to you and will help to heal you of the depression! :-\

Chanelle

Thanks for all your prayers, but this is probably going to be my last post.

I read the Mental Health Act last night, and discovered that if my psychiatrist so chooses, I can be imprisoned forever, without trial, without right to appeal, without any rights at all. If I escape the police have to take me back. They can perform any medical things they want to on me without my consent, without even informing me if they so choose. I don't even get the right to have a second opinion.

I am not going through that. If you get sectioned, no one will ever employ you again, because the popular perception is that the only people who get sectioned are murderous psychopaths - naturally no one wants to employ you after that.

Anyway I've decided to make another, and hopefully successful attempt. I've made my preparations and I only have to wait another day, because I promised a friend I'd do something for her, then I can go.

Thanks again for your prayers. Assuming there is an afterlife, I'll let you know when you get there whether they were effective lol.

Emma

Dear Broken,

Jesus loves you!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Please consider all the love and prayers right here for you!!!!!!!!!! God's love for you is so much more and tomorrow is in His hands.  Put your life in His hands also.

Dear Lord,

Please bless broken with your love and peace.  Let all the horrible thoughts flee from this person.  Please restore broken's soul to thee Lord.  Help broken understand that in you all hope is new and your mighty hand is more able to restore and forgive.  Bless broken's heart, mind, body and spirit to the will of you, My God.  In your loving almighty name I ask you Lord of my life.  Amen.

"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength."

You're really unhappy, huh, Broken?

 Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.


That`s the  inescapable love of God for you Broken, if only you would accept His love, and the life He has to offer you...I am praying for you tonight.

Blue Star,

I'm going to make this as clear as I can, but forgive me, I've been drinking heavily tonight (as a prelude to taking a truly disgusting mixture I've made up, which is why I'm still on, it takes me some time to drink this much) so please forgive me if this is a little unclear.

I would love to have the belief others here have. Its not so much a case of my not wanting to believe in God, as not being able to. I've tried, but a belief that is forced can't really be counted as belief at all.

There is nothing I would love better than to have the assurance in God that others here have. To be able to say, I know with absolute certainty that there not only is a God, but He loves me, and that I have a place in His heart. I don't care about assurance about heaven - if I could know that God loved me, I wouldn't care if He decided to send me to hell! The trouble is, no matter how much I want to, I can't believe. I've tried, but its like there is something missing. If I could only see, only feel God, I could believe. Maybe that makes me a doubting Thomas, but even he had God revealed to him! All I hear is words, not anything tangible.

I could, and have in the past convinced myself intellectually that there is a God, that the Bible is true, that Jesus died for me and that God loves me. But having the head engaged simply isn't enough. If the heart isn't too, then it doesn't feel like real faith. Intellectual faith is dead, but I can't seem to find any other faith.

"Lord, help thou my unbelief".(somewhere in the N.T., but I forget where, in the Gospels, obviously).


Just ask God to help your unbelief, Broken/CAELIN/Emma...


In Jesus' Name...    IT IS THAT SIMPLE.   He will honor your request....


(my smiley faces aren't working)

God hears the cry of your heart Broken, and He is so longing to show you His  love...believing is as simple as saying I accept that God is real, and asking Him into your heart....thats all the faith you need...and the rest (and your hearts rest) He will give to you.

I quote myself : "Perhaps you`ve never found yourself in a place so low, that you needed a saviour, I hope if you ever do, you find someone gullible enough to be willing to be His hand extended to you."

Caelin-
I haven't been here for quite a while and I am not sure that you will remember who I am. At this point I guess that doesn't really matter.  I just want to say first that I will pray for you.  For your salvation, for your faith to receive that gift that Christ offers.  You mentioned in your response to Blue Star that  you would love to have the faith that others here have. I want you to know that you can have it.  We sometimes make it harder than it need be.  We are told in the NT and forgive for not remebering where specifically, that where we lack we are to ask.  If we lack wisdom we are to ask and likewise with faith we are to ask.  Christ is willing to restore your spirit, renew your mind and build your faith.  You said that you have come to a place at some point where you have believed that there is a God, the Christ died and so forth. May I say that right there is faith dear sister.  With that same faith and revelation knowledge you can apprehend and receive the gift of salvation.

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

vs 6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You have this part and let me encourage you that you are almost there.  You have already believed.  You have believed that He is.  So how do we get to the place of believing that He is the rewarder?  By trusting Him and His revelation knowledge. Letting Him work experientally in our life.  Maybe that one moment where our faith is sky rocketed to such heights that we can attain the promise.  Just as Gideon in the book of Judges had a visit from an angel of the Lord and his faith was increased just enough at that point to attain the promise which God had spoken. Never mind that he was out numbered and his army was minimal at best, nevermind that he looked upon himself as nothing but the least of his father's house, but by faith received the promise of the Lord and the Lord God delivered him just as He will deliver you.

Psalm 103:2-4

Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:  Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies.

What are more of the benefits by grace in Christ:

Rom 5-1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through the Lord Jesus

Rom 6-6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin

Rom 8-1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

Eph 1-4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

As for this verse specifically, I would say to you that He has chosen you Caelin. It has not been an accident that you have come to fellowship with others called by His name ( speaking of this forum) He loves you.  

But to receive those benefits through grace is Jesus you need to know who you are in Him. To receive with faith and confidence the positional righteousness that comes with salvation.  You are the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus. How do we know this?

You are a child of God  John 1:12

You are a joint heir with Christ  Romans 8:17

You are a temple and dwelling place of God   1 Cor 3:16, 6:19

You are called a saint    Eph 1:1, Col 1:2, 1 Cor 1:2

You are part of God's family  Eph 2:19

You are righteous and holy  Eph 4:24

You are a living stone being built up in Christ  1 Pet 2:5

 Dear Caelin, I by faith declare these promises over your life. Trusting God and His promises for you.  He knows His plans for you and they are good.  This is who God Almighty says you are.  I choose to look at you not in the temperal but eternal and what God has ordained and predestined you to be.  The enemy of your soul would have you belive his lies and succumb to them. For Paul tells us that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against powers, principalities and rulers of darkness in high places.  There is a battle for your very soul Caelin.  Not what Sammy would call faking or trying to get attention.  This is a spiritual battle for you my sister    ( and yes by faith I call you sister)  Receive Christ and take up your armour. He did not intend for you to fight this alone and unarmed.  Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all stand.  This is an evil day. The enemy wishes to take your life, to eternaly seperate you from God who formed you in your mothers womb.  Stand and keep standing.  Christ will contend for you and so will I.  God be with you Caelin.

Love In Christ
Karita

Hey guys.

My attempt didn't work again. The pills just made me throw up and pass out. I've been fine since though so they must have gone out of my system.

I can't say I'm exactly pleased to be back in the land of the living, but I thought I should let you know anyway.

Emma

   Broken, Do you read the Bible?

Paul2,

Yes, quite a lot. Mostly the Psalms at the moment.

      Broken,

    Read the four gospels and pray first for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the truth. Read about Jesus and the love he had. He layed his hands on lepers who had no human contact since they became infected. Let the person of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, be your focal point.

     The Bible is truth. You need to stay alive and find the truth. Your still here because God is not done with you. God could have let you go and you might have ended up in hell, I don't know if your saved or not. God hasn't let go. The Holy Spirit has drawn you here for a reason. You have to seek the truth.

     Jesus paid for you with His life blood so you could be forgiven and receive eternal life. He allowed himself to be beaten, have his beard torn out, allowed people to spit on him and march him to Calvery where he allowed Himself to be nailed to a cross and die to save you. He was raised from the dead and now lives and sits at God's right hand to intercede for you.

     Read the Gospels and let your heart feel the love Jesus had for people. He reached out to the down trodden, the poor, the sinners, people just like us. Somehow he felt we were worth saving. Each Gospel shows a perspective of Jesus.

     In Matthew he is presented as King Messiah
     In Mark he is presented as a Servant of man
     In Luke he is presented as a man
     In John he is presented as Deity

     Each Gospel shows a different perspective. It takes all four gospels to get the whole picture.

     God is calling out to you in many ways including Holy Spirit filled believers. Please don't mock the call of God anymore with thoughts of suicide. You don't want to lose you eternal life or end up in a coma on life support.

    God has reached out to you but now you must respond and reach out to Him. I know the Bible is true. I've spent years studing it. I studied prophecy and ancient history looking for flaws so I could write off the Bible. The more I studied the more truth I found instead.

     You stay alive and seek God, He'll show you awesome things. Man says show me and I'll believe. God says believe and I'll show you. Faith was always there first before Jesus would heal anyone.

    Time for you to really meet Jesus. The four Gospels are the place to start. Confess to God that your Broken, He already knows but its a starting point. He knows everything about you and He still loves you. He knows your pain and sorrow and seeks to wipe away your tears. Please read the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Then accept Jesus as your Savior, He died for you. He shed His blood 2,000 years ago knowing that we would all go astray and He provided Himself to redeem us. Please don't mock His shed blood.

     Something brought you this far, it was God but you may not realize it yet. Ask God to make His word the Bible real to you. It is the living word of God. The Holy Spirit will show you things you were blind to before. I pray that the Holy Spirit guide you to the truth.

     Let your heart be open to God and seek a relationship with Jesus. Don't start thinking your not worthy. None of us are but that didn't stop Jesus from offering Himself on the cross to save us. Jesus wants to save you. He wants to give you eternal life and a destiny that brings you to Him forever.

    Satan hates us. Satan is the one who tells us were no good. He hates the fact that God loves us. He hates the fact that Jesus has already paid for our redemption with His own blood. Your pardon and ticket to Heaven was nailed to a cross 2,000 years ago in the person of Jesus Christ and Satan can't do anything about it except try and trick us out of accepting the gift of eternal life through Jesus.

    Satan wants you. Satan wants you to throw away your life and share his fate in Hell. God wants you to. He wants to start an eternal relationship with you and to bring you to be with him when your life on earth is over.

    This is our learning ground, we suffer and learn here. God uses this life to teach us and to develope us into who we will be. You still have a purpose. Only God knows what it is but I know suicide is not Gods will but the will of Satan.

     Pray for understanding and forgiveness and accept Jesus as your Savior. He is the Son of God and God in the flesh.
Read the four Gospels and let God melt your heart. May God richly bless you and give you comfort and peace.

                                                     Paul2

(http://www.beautifulclipart.com/clipart/smiley/smile5.gif)

(http://www.freestuff.co.uk/media/00000383.gif)

Hey Paul2,


I have read them before, but I'll read them again. I tend to find the old testament more interesting :) most of the time. I like John's Gospel though.


The thing is, I can disregard the flaws I have read of, I can reconcile all those arguments, if only I can be sure. I find it hard, some days, to even see why God should exist. It all seems silly, nothing more. And even if I can get an intellectual faith, which I've managed before - I cannot make it real, I can say that I believe, but I cannot believe totally. That is the problem I have - and its not one I can see an answer to.

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken & Sammy,

Here's the truth: It's time for you to seek Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, ask forgiveness, and ask for guidance in taking a positive path for your life. If you are ready to investigate this, all you have to do is ask. There are lots of people here who have prayed for both of you, and there are lots of people here who will help you.

In Christ.

The thing is, blackeyedpeas, I have asked, time and time again for years now. And....nothing. I still can't find faith. I can pray till my kneecaps fall off but its still only words, there is nothing I can grasp there.

It doesn't seem to matter how often I repent, how often I pray the "sinners prayer", how often I ask salvation, how often I pray, how often I read the Bible......still nothing. Its just words.

I'm beginning to think I lost my chance at this. That once an apostate, always an apostate, no more shots at redemption.  :(

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken,

I'm thinking out loud. Do you really want to stop doing some of the things you know are wrong,  or is the love of or enjoyment of those things standing in the way of becoming a child of God? It would be just words if you haven't firmly decided to change the course of your life. Are you neck deep in a mud puddle asking for clean clothes? I didn't mean this in a smart way, rather to illustrate the possible problem. I really don't know. Is it possible that you should get out of the mud puddle, ask for clean clothes, and decide to stay out of the mud? Jesus will even give you a helping hand to get out of the mud. Could something like this be part of the problem?

I understand what you're saying, blackeyedpeas.
Trouble is, if I look at my life, I can't really see anything I'm doing wrong. I mean, I'm celibate, so no sin there, I don't take drugs (non-prescription ones, I mean), I don't steal, I haven't murdered anyone, I don't lust after people, I don't get angry with people anymore, I can't say I hate anyone. I don't see any big sin-areas in my life which I need to repent from. All I really do at the moment is read, go on the internet, and see my friends.

I know the self-injury might be a problem, but I'm receiving treatment for that. So I don't really see what the "block" might be.

Any ideas?  ???

Emma

Emma,


Your rationlizing (might be spelled wrong, sorry) your life. Drinking is also a drug, and is concidered a sin. Self abuse is a sin. Not loving yourself is a sin. Not loving God sin. You need to start being honest with your self before any changes are going to happen in your life.

I am begining to think you like things exactly the way they are, because that is how you get attention. That is your payoff , ATTENTION.  That is why you don't want to change. Your not sure how you would be notice or get the attention you have been getting. Sorry to be so blunt with you but I think that's the only way your going to get it. Is complete honesty.

Really would like to see you change your life and come to truely know Christ, but that is up to you to do. He's there waiting for you.
                             God Bless you
                                  Terri

There's nothing wrong with drinking in moderation. Jesus did it, after all.
Self-abuse? I take it you're referring to the self-injury there? As I said, I'm in treatment for that at the moment, with a view to ending it sometime soon, hopefully.
Its kind of hard to love someone you're not sure exists.


Attention? Thats not actually something I crave. And I'm not malingering. If all I wanted was attention, why would I accept treatment and take the drugs I've been given?
I get noticed often enough for me, regardless of being ill at the time.

"Trust in the LOrd  with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding.  In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight thy paths..."

(http://www.beautifulclipart.com/clipart/smiley/smile5.gif)

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken,

Just some ideas:

Get rid of the negative things in your life and don't dwell on dark things. As an example, take the web page about self injury down and delete the files. There is nothing positive about that at all.

If you are reading negative and dark material, stop and get rid of it. You don't need anything negative or dark to dwell on. As an example, change your signature line on Christians Unite to something positive and uplifting that you can look at every time one of your messages comes up. Replace it with something positive like a favorite Bible verse. The same would be true of music you listen to, books you read, and other material that would either be negative or positive. Read the Bible instead and look for other positive and uplifting materials and music to spend your time with.

This is a bad comparison in many ways, but I want to make it anyway. A person could be compared to a computer - garbage in - garbage out. The things that we do, read, or listen to tends to program us. Maybe you could chage things to good things in - good things out. Think about this and try to understand how much garbage you are allowing in to effect you and your outlook on life. Could this be the problem? Is there room for Jesus?

Hi Emma,

You want both lives, and you can't have both. You either chose God and live a Christian life and obey God. Which means repent from your sin. Become born again and leave the old way of life for the new. A Christ like life. Your life at the moment is not Christ like.

I agree with BEP, you really need to get ride of your website. There is no positive in it what so ever. I know at times you feel down and dark, and depressed. Those feelings are from God he is trying to draw you near to him. But you continue to rebell him.  When you dicide to give in and give your life to God you will see some allsome things happen in your life!!!!!

I pray God shows you the way. God Bless you Emma.
                                        Terri

I'm praying for your, Broken...(http://www.beautifulclipart.com/clipart/smiley/smile5.gif)

Hey blackeyedpeas,


I don't really see whats wrong with my website. I mean, I know I discuss self-injury in there, but thats to publicise a much-misunderstood problem, and mine is not a site which glorifies si.
Aside from that....the poems I have on there don't, I think, increase negativity, as I tend to read them whether or not I'm feeling down at the time. They're my favourite poems, and not all of them are darker in tone. Same goes for the short stories. My own poems naturally reflect whats going on in my life and there are Christian ones in there, though not many. The only thing in my death section is something about the death of Christ and its meaning.
So I don't see that there is anything particularly wrong in it.


I'm not, really. I generally read lighter stuff at the moment. I understand your point with this one :) which is why I cut darker material, and books about depression or si from my reading list (my psychiatrist told me to do so).


I can do that, yes :) I only have it there to inform others about me rather than for me to read.

Terri,


I really don't see what is sinful in my life. I could if I was taking drugs or something, but I'm not. I don't see how an acknowledgement of my own mood is sinful.

-Emma

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken,

I like your new signature line: it is positive and uplifting. I pray that you can take this first step much further and apply it to your entire life. Look at, read, and listen to positive, uplifting material. The more you are determined to concentrate on positive things, the more positive you will become. I'm talking about everything. If anything is dark or depressing, turn it off and switch channels (i.e. music, books, television, news, everything). "POSITIVE IN - POSITIVE OUT" is the thought I'm trying to express. Make up your mind that you don't have the time, energy, or desire for NEGATIVE of any kind. I think if you will at least try this you will start feeling more positive.

In Christ.

It was one of my gran's favourite prayers, they found the card with it on in her handbag after she died, and gave it to me :)


Yeah, I have been trying that. I've mostly been reading those "women's books", which are all about people's love lives, generally, fairly safe reading :) The only really "dark" thing I read now is another forum I'm on, which is a support group, because I go there to receive and to give help, and my diayr. But the diary is darker because it reflects what I'm feeling, its a way of getting the feelings and thoughts out, if you know what I mean.

I'm very up and down at the moment. The drugs I'm on not only seem to be not working on the depression, but they're having a very strange reaction - they're mood stabilisers, supposed to stop the low points and the slightly manic phases as well. But unfortunately they seem to be actually triggering them! I had a very strange afternoon the other day, definitely a bit manic that time - it was just a good thing I was by myself, I think! And I'm in the midst of the downswing now. :(
I have to wait another week before I can see the psychiatrist again, and ask to be put on something else. But he's obsessed with these particular drugs, so I've got to stay on them regardless, just start taking yet another set of pills as well ::)


I am trying, but Rome wasn't built in a day, I suppose.

-Emma

Hi, Broken. I just saw this thread. About faith, you mentioned it comes and goes. The thing to remember is that it happens to everyone. I've had this happen too, and what I've discovered is that it will always come back. Always. When it falters for a time, I find it's usually because we tend to look at our circumstances more than our savior and that's when the devil whispers doubts into our ears. Remeber who is trying to discourage you, and what that devil's goals are, and you'll have extra power to fight doubt. Here's what I do when my faith starts sagging: I meditate on Who God is. Since He says He'll forgive our sins, He will. He says that no one who comes to Him will be cast out. THis is your work: just take Him at His word, even when the depression hits, and it will leave you. That's the God, Emma, in Whom you've placed your trust. Wait for Him always. He'll always keep you.

As far as the depression goes, I went through it, too. But here's where the trick is: Depression has a wicked genius to paralyze coping mechanisms. Those mechanisms everyone else takes for granted, depression steals from you. But the problem is, we tend to treat ourselves the way others have, or the way we think others or God sees us. So we end up perpetuating our own punishment. That's where the self-abuse comes in; you have to remember you are an image bearer of God!!! Your body, Emma, is God's temple. You have to remember that, meditate on what that means and learn to treat yourself in accordance with the high status as God's temple. If you can't do it for yourself, do it because God requires it of you.

It's very possible that there is demonic influence. No matter how much you like the sound of goth, or the image, or the feelings that you can relate to about it, there are things about the spirit world we don't understand and you're opening a portal by engaging in it. Plan ahead what you'll do when the temptation comes to mutilate yourself or listen to goth or dress goth:
1. Tell the devil to get lost. You're dead to sin and alive to Christ. You are covered in Jesus's blood, and so you refuse to cover yourself in your own, because you would be professing a blood sacrifice other than that of Christ. That's what you're doing, you know. You may not even realize it, but you're obeying someone and it isn't God. Get rid of the goth no matter how much you may feel like you relate to it. I repeat: get rid of it.
2. Remember that self-mutilation is a result of the devil's trickery. Find the deceit that is making you willing. There's a good book called War On The Saints by Jessie Penn-Lewis, published Whitaker House. If you can't get a copy, let me know. It will soothe you and help you fight.
3. Get into public where you can't hurt yourself.
4. Remember that how things *feel* and how they *are* are two very different things. Just because things feel helpless, or you feel abandoned by God, does not make this the case. The devil would love for you to believe it, though. You have to tell him no. It could be that God wants you to discover this right now.
5. Remeber that you are understood, and others are praying for you, including me. This will empower you. Just redeem the prayers before the Lord as if they were checks for which you knew you would receive what was requested. God will honor your faith.
6. Get talking. You have to talk to others, they must be Christians, and they must be people you trust. If they don't understand, you have to at least be able to trust that they won't make your wound worse. They will help you find the deceit the devil wants to feed you. Are your parents Christians, by the way?
7. Know that even when God allows you to walk through doubt, He's there with you in the doubt and there's a very good reason He's letting you walk it. If you can get a hold of a copy, get John Bunyan's account with his own spiritual battles with faith and spiritual warfare. It's in his collective works by Banner of Truth. The piece is called "Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners." It's his account of his own coming to Christ, but the info will be helpful and soothing to you. If you can't afford it, ask your church library to order it or if there is a CHristian college nearby, ask them if they carry Bunyan's works.
8. Make a list of Bible verses that directly confront self mutilation or any discouraging thought. Pay attention to what you are thinking, and when the wrong thought comes, recite the correct verse and put your trust in it.
9. You can and will beat your depression.
10. Keep a journal of the spiritual end of it. When God gives you comfort, make absolutely certain you receive it and use it. Look for proactive ways of using it. Don't refuse God's comfort out of discouragement because He hates that. He really does.
11. When you wonder if God has abandoned you, remember that He has sustained you all this time and He will be faithful to do it every single time. You're alive because He wants you to be. He put faith in you to get you throught this. He will other circumstances in your path, right when you need it. And when you've finished this bitter path, He will send others for you to help. And you will be using this to heal others and show them that even Christians can go through these things.

Blessings to you.

Is there an echo in here??

(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WgDdAqsczTlJgwqj2gZwKFyBPrfUXp36NkF!d5JG3iXlkQISdYKB8mQMYtDN2C7Q4Y3WduCwgrcTEXiFUrzC1YfIW7KruY7pxKnOgalFjCYRpKIPqODLDYVWAMwJZfXayP1IY9HsHNk/bear-doing-summersault.gif?dc=4675414557557999483)

opps! Sorry, Symphony. Thanks for the tip.  ;)

Hey Whitehorse, didn't see your post before, sorry!


It tends to go away for very long periods of time though, leaving me with more times when I've been doubting than when I've been faithful. I've had four periods of faith in my entire life, lasting about a year max each. Now, I'm 22, so that means the vast majority of my life, I've had no faith. You can see why that would concern me, can't you?


I wouldn't actually define myself as a goth particularly. I like the old gothic literature, yes, and there is one gothic band I listen to, but aside from that, nothing really. I don't dress goth either.
But even if I was, I don't see how invisible demons could possibly be wandering around goths. I mean, I don't see how what you listen to or read could attract demons - even if I believed in demons, which I don't.
The SI....well as I mentioned, I am trying to stop that, but I find that if I stress about it, it only gets worse and makes me feel worse by setting up a guilt cycle. So I've taken the advice of my psychiatrist on that one and decided not to worry about it overmuch but just assume that once the depression lifts, the need to will go away. It has already decreased a fair bit - mostly because I have stopped stressing about it.


The motives for SI are a lot more complex than expiation for sin, Whitehorse. It does include a bit of that, but also ideas of punishment and simple hatred play a part. I do not do it to imitate Christ - though I do know people who do, mainly those who grew up in Catholicism or in certain areas of the world. I don't consider self-injury to have a spiritual dimension - it is a physical act, with physical consequences, and so Christ doesn't come into the picture, nor is it an attempt to do the same as Christ because of that. Perhaps I'm obeying someone - but that someone is me, no one else.


I'll have a look for it, if Amazon don't sell it, maybe the Christian shops here will.


Thats an idea I have tried - but to be honest its more dangerous to me to be outside in a street full of drunks and drug addicts at night than it is to be in my flat by myself. I don't feel safe outside at night, and I'm unwilling to put myself in danger.


I do have Christian friends - most of my friends are Christians (with one exception, but she turned away from the church after a bad experience with a cult group). My parents probably are not - they go to church sometimes, but only for the music and only to midnight mass anyway. They don't actually own a bible aside from the ones I've left with them. My family has problems with religion so we don't talk about it though.


One of our local shops sells a lot of things pblished by Banner of Truth, so they probably have it, I'll look next time I go in.
I don't actually go to church - I didn't know churches had libraries, actually! There is a theological library up the road though.
 

There aren't really any. There are some verses which talk about people cutting themselves, but it always speaks of them cutting themselves for the dead, not for any other reason, so I couldn't find any particularly relevant ones. The nearest one is Mark 5, but as I do not have demons nor live as a wild person...its sort of hard to make it relate.


I have one actually, as an adjunct to my normal diary - here (http://undulator.diaryland.com)


I find it quite hard to believe that, you see. It doesn't feel as though God has sustained me, but that I've just had to struggle through until the drugs I've been given work, with the help of various doctors.

Thanks for replying :)

Emma

Emma, you don't have to understand how demons would be hanging around goth people. But that's exactly what deception is based upon-a lack of understanding it. I'm not saying demonic forces are just attracted, I'm saying the movement is inspired by these forces. As long as you don't believe this, you'll be a willing party.

Second remember, your faith is leaving. So there is something that isn't right. Jesus promised He will never leave you. I can show you one example of deception: Jesus never self-inflicted. In fact...***: THE DEVIL took Jesus to the pinnacle and twisted scripture, telling Jesus to jump off the pinnacle in order to prove His divinity and faith in God. But even though there is a scriptural promise that God's angels would uphold Him, Jesus pointed out the difference between falling and deliberately injuring yourself.*** *This is not to say that Jesus can ever fall, because other scriptures prove His divinity and perfect nature* But Jesus was giving an example to us. If your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, any SI is a desecration of that temple of God, whether or not that is your intent. It doesn't matter what your motive is; the devil wants you to desecrate the Lord's temple and he'll do anything to keep you doing it. You have your reasons, but he has his. You can't be a willing party!

But here's the point I especially want to stress: Did Jesus self-inflict? NO. But you mention people do it for that reason- a likeness to Him. Do you see that there is a very subtle deceit here? Jesus *didn't* do it, but someone did suggest to Him the very same thing that you've been tempted with! Only it was by jumping, not cutting. But the principle is the same, *and it was suggested by someone*. That's why I am thinking you're in a spiritual warfare situation. But for your faith to stand, you need to live in obedience and love God's temple more than the need to fulfill the purpose for which it occurs. No one said it would be easy. The key is to find out where the spiritual access is, and even if you don't understand how goth could be involved, ask yourself this: Are these people putting on the mind of Christ? If the answer is no, and it will be, you're accepting something that God doesn't want influencing you. Can you try something: put it aside for one month. If you agree to do this, I will pray for you with intensity during this time. I bet everyone else will, too! See if there is a change. But you also have to be applying scripture and you have to be willing. *There are lots of scriptures! I'll get you a bunch if you want. I can make a booklet for you.* But God only works with you if you're willing. He healed me of my depression, and He can heal you of yours.

Also, you need to understand that there is one objective in all of this: MAKE YOUR FAITH STAND. That's it. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, so be willing to let go of anything that gets in the way. If I can help, email me. I'm here for you.

Hey Whitehorse,


I'm not sure it can actually be defined as a movement as such. Its just a bunch of people who like reading, listening and watching darker stuff - which is a part of life after all. There are Christian goths too - I'm sure I saw a site once about it.


I mentioned that I think God may have forsaken me - you see I was reading Hebrews and it does seem to give that impression:

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6 RSV)


I don't think it has anything to do with the people I know, what I watch, read or listen to, but its an issue of faith. This passage in particular seems to say that once you've lost your faith, thats it, you can't go back.


I thought the message of that particular temptation was that you shouldn't test God, shouldn't behave in a silly way expecting God to save you. God'll help you if you need it, but not if you're being stupid to see whether he will.


Well, it depends how you look at Jesus. He did, essentially, commit suicide, and wanted all the harm that was done to him before the crucifixion to be done. That is the major likeness SI-ers sometimes see between themselves and Jesus. The other likeness is something they seek out - in an effort to be more like Jesus, to follow him more completely, there are people who flagellate themselves, or who have themselves crucified. Not to my taste, but I can understand why they do it.

And, of course, Jesus' words are a major source of SI in their own right. A feature of major SI is religious preoccupation, and the following, literally, of two of Jesus' sayings:

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.  (Matthew 5:29)

For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it. (Matthew 19:12)

Not that that justifies it, to me or to doctors, but it is contained in the Bible, some forms of SI, anyway.


What people? There is only me here. The people I know don't share those interests of mine - their reading material is quite different to mine, you wouldn't catch me reading love stories, but thats what they read. I'm the only person I know in real life who regularly reads poetry, too.


What is it exactly you want me to put aside? Reading? Writing? The net?
As for the SI - as I said before, if I try to stop, get all guilty every time I can't manage it, it gets worse, which is why I've been told not to stress about it, but wait until it gets better of its own accord.


Which scriptures did you have in mind? :)


As I understand things, salvation is through consistent faith. Through lasting faith that does not fail, not through constantly apostasising, as that results in damnation. As I understand that passage from Hebrews, once you apostasise for the first time, the first time you lose your faith, you become unable to regain it because you have insulted Christ and become unable to return - basically you get a hardened heart. That, to me, seems like a fairly good explanation for why I've not been able to grasp faith properly - because the scriptures say I never will be able to.

-Emma

Emma, the devil pulls that garbage on *everyone* who comes to the Lord, especially those who are young or new in the faith. Fear not, my friend, there is plenty of hope! I can give you a long list of similar tactics the devil pulls with God's most blessed children. Let's see...that they've committed the unpardonable sin, that they've fallen irrevocably from the faith, that God sends hardship to people He doesn't love when James chapter two tells us otherwise...That's the first thing you have to know. If you weren't so special to God, the devil wouldn't waste a second on you. Not one blessed second. There's a reason he's working so hard on you--think about it. He afflicts *God's* people with all kinds of griefs and then points the finger at God and says, "See? *He* doesn't love you." But a lot of it you can prevent. I'll show you how if you want. See, the devil can't make you do anything, so he has to gain your willingness and he uses discouragement, doubts, and certain types of past abuse to gain your willingness. That's where we have to slam the door in his face.

In actuality God allows the pain for other, unseen reasons, like to put you in a position where you have no other choice than to believe Him simply because He says so. (This is the key to your salvation. You must understand, that is the only genuine faith that will save you. So that's why the devil tempts you by whispering in your ear that God is mean--because the affliction that seems so heavy is actually the portal to everlasting peace and ease, being prepared for you right this minute, Emma, even as we speak! If the devil can convince you God means you harm, you'll reject the faith that comes through suffering that will save you.)

There are other indications that the devil means to take your faith from you. The SI indicates that there is at least in part a felt need to partake in your own salvation. In reality, any, I mean any partaking in your own salvation is putting your faith in something other than Christ and there are stern warnings about it in the Bible. You'll need to turn away from it, because it's an unwitting affront to God's perfect sacrifice and it cannot save. So that's why we're moving you away from that. The devil tells people the SI is a "Christ-likeness": another lie. Jesus paid the price for you, and you are not to try to help Him! That's rejecting His sacrifice. Jesus paid the price so you wouldn't have to, so you can be *free* in CHrist, not self-afflict. It's the devil who is enslaving you to this harshness, pretending it is righteousness. He's taking advantage of your willingness without knowledge to lead you into deceit. But I can see you're fighting for your faith and you're precious to God; you're willing enough to serve God, but that is not of the Lord. The devil is trying to wear you out with false impressions of severity in God. So you see, the devil will try to take advantage even of your good intentions.
First, let's overturn that: 2 Corinthians 7:10. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, *but worldly sorrow brings death.*

So you see, there is a right and wrong kind of repentance. The devil is trying to move you away from receiving the free gift in order to walk in this other kind of sorrow. Meditate on believing God when He says He is greater than our sin. (I wonder, too, if you're afflicting yourself for things that weren't your fault.)

Now about the falling away. Romans 11: 23-24: And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

So you see, It's impossible for you to have fallen away as long as you're still seeking. You are still concerned about your faith, so you are here. That's why you're requesting prayer. The devil pulled that very same lie on John Bunyan, and we all see how that turned out. He is perhaps one of the greatest, tenderest, and dearest theologians of all time, mostly because of his battle with satan. It made him a most compassionate man. Trust me, if you had fallen away, you wouldn't have any interest in being here whatsoever. You wouldn't care.

Secondly, there is not a single Christian, a real Christian that is, who didn't go or who will not go through a serious battle with faith and whether or not they are saved. The reason is, people who never look at their sin and question tend to presume upon God's grace--a dreadful sin. But you are willing, and the devil is trying to keep you from it. You absolutely must assert your will to believe God even though you are suffering. Unbelief is not to be dallied with, so remember what the devil's goals for you are. When he tempts you with unbelief say, "Get behind me, satan. I'm covered by the blood of Jesus Christ and you have no claim on me." Then simply trust God to deal with the rest. Better yet, tell God you are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ and ask Him to relay the message for you so you don't have to talk to the evil one.

No--Jesus absolutely did not commit suicide. Not in any shape or form, but that's the devil whispering lies to you because he wants you to do it to yourself. There are a couple of passages about our bodies as temples, and you need to bring yourself into obedience here so your faith can be affirmed. I Corinthians 3:16: Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for that temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

So you see, you really do testify something with SI even though your motives are entirely different. Like I say, the devil has his own motives, and he'll let you think whatever you want as long as you're doing what will lead you to this. If you do it in your unawares, not knowing the significance, blinded from this reality by what you think are your own motives, that's even better for him because he can slip in any manner of deceit that way. Now for the passage that actually links doctrine to our bodies, and you need to recite these whenever you feel tempted, because scripture is the sword of the spirit, your offensive weapon from Ephesians 6. The other scripture you need to recite is
I Corinthians 6: 19-20.
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own. You were bought with a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

If you recite that to the Lord and ask Him to relay it to the devil who tempts you, here's what's happening: you're acknowledging that you are a temple of God. That is a statement of faith. You are professing it. You're testifying it with your open defiance to the temptation, and trusting the Lord to deliver your message for you. This is faith in action. It is the ultimate proof of what you believe. The temptation may or may not get worse for a time. But persist, and the devil will shut his fat trap. The Bible guarantees it. It doesn't say when, but it guarantees it and it will happen in due time. The best way to increase your faith is to recite the scriptures, and then do precisely what you recited. Your own actions will increase your faith as a sign of God's imminent presence. Guaranteed.  Blessings to you.

Hey Whitehorse,

I see "Independent" got banned :) I did wonder why the number of pages on this topic had suddenly gone up!


I don't see Whitehorse as a fanatic - and I have met a fair few. Besides which - I asked for help, I might have got annoyed if someone had insisted on telling me about faith when I didn't want them to, but in this case, I asked. And I asked in a Christian forum, not an atheist one - I could have gone to Internet Infidels' forum if I had wanted responses from that side of the fence, but I didn't, so I came here.


I'm a bit unwilling to think of the devil as showing me scriptures, of causing doubt, that sort of thing. I'm rather keen on the notion of free will and responsibility - if I doubt, it is my fault, not something I can blame on someone else and then whine at judgement that it wasn't my fault - Adam and Eve tried that one, and it didn't work.


I don't hate God, or think he's mean or anything. I don't feel anything toward God (which is perhaps part of the problem), as far as I'm concerned, if I have transgressed this thing in the Bible, then thats that. I had access to the Bible before I lost my faith the first time, its not like I couldn't have read about it, if someone warns you about the consequences of doing something and you do it anyway, that doesn't make them evil for doing what they said, merely consistent.


SI isn't done to save anyone from anything - its a coping mechanism. Not a good one, not a long-lasting one, but like some people use alcohol or drugs or sex to help them in the short-term, others use SI. Now, that still makes it not a good thing - but hardly makes it a rival of Christ. When you drink to make yourself feel better you're not thinking that the alcohol offers eternal salvation, are you? Or that drinking is a punishment which will wipe out your sins - even if you do drink because you don't like yourself much, the drinking doesn't then make you like yourself better, neither does SI.


The people who crucify themselves, flagellate themselves, etc, do not do so to help Christ perform his sacrifice! They're doing it to demonstrate how much they love him, and would like to be like him - as people do when they fast, or attempt to replicate his manner toward others or keep his commandments. Its a more extreme version though. The best comparison would probably be with people who get Christian tattoos to demonstrate their faith.


But not all seekers will be allowed to find :

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. (John 8:21)

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me (Proverbs 1:24-8)
It just seems to me like the Bible is saying that there is a point after which you can seek all you like but God won't listen - because you went too far. If you refuse God, he's not coming back.


Well, he did decide to die for the sake of others - an altruistic suicide if you like. He didn't have to die, after all, but chose to.


I always thought that refered to the soul though - I mean the Bible does tend to go on about how the flesh doesn't matter, about how its evil and all that, and say that only the spirit matters.
 

But if I don't believe in satan and I'm not sure about God either - how is that supposed to help? God doesn't even hear the prayers of unbelievers (John 9:31) so why should my recitation of anything mean or do anything at all?

Hi, everything is fixed now so we're up and running.


But don't you see, this is exactly what he did to Jesus, and to Adam and Eve. Eve fell because she was tempted. It was her fault, but she was not without enticement. But in regards to your situation, all that scripture that tells about the devil's schemes is there for a reason. Ephesians six is there for a reason. There's a difference between being tempted and sinning. If the devil would try something on Jesus, he'll do it to you, too. And that's how we know what to do; Jesus gave us an example. So if you're not doing that, there'd be a problem there. But the point was, there's a reason the devil's working on you. If you weren't precious, he wouldn't waste his time.


But the other scriptures I showed you. See, there's proper interpretation, and you're shooting yourself in the foot. I wouldn't do that. God hates that because He sees it as unbelief, and it's your job to trust what He says, even the verses that are in your favor. ;)


You're desecrating your temple. You are part of the body of Christ. So there are much bigger implications to what you're doing, implications you may not intend.


There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. [Proverbs 14:12] Emma, God wants you to be like Him in your *character,* not your wounds. The devil is tricking you. He pulled that on Jesus at the pinnacle; the suggestion was for Jesus to "prove" his devotion and faith in the promises by jumping. Emma, Jesus said no. You must do likewise, and in *that* way be like Christ.


Jesus was talking to Pharisees who weren't seeking Him at all. By "seeking" Jesus meant looking for His physical person. But He was going to die and be resurrected. These Pharisees weren't seeking to follow after His teachings; they tried to kill Him! You're not in that category.



Then don't you think it's time to stop shooting your faith in the foot and start taking Him at His word? You never stopped seeking so this doesn't apply to you. Find for me one person in the Bible who trusted in Him and was confounded. Not a single one. Here's what the Bible does say about trust:

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and *lean not on your own understanding*.; in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6 [emphasis mine]

The Jews regard Genesis as talking about temptation, rather than a talking serpent, by the way.
I just don't see how it can be just to have a demiurge like satan wandering around: if you do something wrong, its his fault, not yours - if he is a powerful alternative to God, then you cannot resist (which is actually a teaching of the church as I recall, that you cannot help but sin unless God gives you the grace not to - thus ignoring personal responsibility entirely and laying the blame on God for sin).


But if someone makes you an "offer you cannot refuse", as satan is said to do, then you cannot be sinning by accepting it.
But that is by the by, I dislike the idea of saying its not my fault that I do X, its some invisible goaty guy making me do it, thats putting the idea there in the first place, that without invisible goaty guy I would be fine - I consider that idea to be immoral in itself.


The verses seem to say different things though - some say you cannot fall away, some say you can and if you do you're damned, some say you need to keep working at it to be saved. The doctrine seems to change depending on the author.


But the temple is no longer a physical thing according to John 4 - but a spiritual one. Hence the importance of spiritual purity whereas the physical temple is irrelevant.


The people who view their SI in that way - and I am not one of them btw - do not see it as a proof of faith, but a way of reminding themselves of their faith, as some people wear those WWJD bracelets. They're using a physical example of carrying their cross to help themselves and others to understand spiritually carrying it.


The Pharisees were considered wrong by the gospel writers because they did not believe - or if they did believe, as some of them did, fell away. Thus they could not find Jesus.


There have been many times when I have not cared about seeking God, when I have been in other religions - which places me squarely in the category of those who did not seek and those whom God will not allow to find him.


But Jesus was God - he chose to die, as John's Gospel makes abundantly clear. If he had not chosen, he would not have died. He allowed his death to occur for the sake of others, and allowed others to sin by killing him. An easy comparison to make is with Captain Oates, Scott's companion in the Antarctic, who went outside in the snow to die to help the others - he commited altruistic suicide by allowing himself to die for the sake of others.


And what is that life? It is not physical life - because the physical body does not enter heaven. It is spiritual life. Which is how come believers have it NOW and still die.
 

I'm not worried about satan - I don't see demons, and I don't believe in a two-god system.


I did. I had been reading a book about how everyone should make specific prayers to God, run the risk of them not being answered. So I asked for a sign - as others did in the Bible, I was thinking of Gideon particularly - and it was not given.

But personal accountability would mean not blaming God and saying He's shutting the door when you've rejected eight pages of help from concerned, godly people. Either you accept responsibility for dealing with temptation the way Jesus did it, and take accountability for putting yourself under scripture, or it's your own fault, not His.

I don't think I'm helping you; it seems I'm only giving you more things to shoot down and I can't be a party to encouraging that from you. If you're serious about getting your faith on track, that's one thing. But if you're going to play games with your eternal soul, that's another. I can't help you do that. I'm here if you need me, though. You need to be willing.

That is the Bible :) There are a lot of different ways to interpret the Bible, lots of different methods. That one I mentioned is simply one of them.
And don't forget natural theology :) that has always played an important role in faith.


*Cough* The Bible records what Jesus did when tempted - argue with the devil. Hebrews says to look to Jesus when tempted. 1 Corinthians says that you will not be tempted beyond your strength to resist it. The Gospels say to ask God not to let you be tempted, and to pray. And the Old Testament does not even contain the word.


Who said I blamed God for anything? I am simply trying to show that I fulfil God's requirements for being forsaken. That is my explanation for why I have been unable to grasp faith - because I have transgressed in a way that cannot be forgotten:

1 John 5:16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.

As far as I can see, the Bible does clearly teach that there is a point beyond which you can no longer come to faith. And it teaches that this is a direct consequence of rejecting God, which I did at one time.

That is the only explanation I can see for my inability to have faith - that it is a consequence of my past actions which cannot be erased.

Looking at the scripture from 1 John, I see that I should not have started this topic in the first place.

-Emma

But only God knows whether or not he hears your prayers, Emma.

And only God knows ultimately whether we are even born again, or not.

How do you KNOW that you have been forsaken, Emma?

Just cast all your cares aside, becuase He careth for you.

No, there are plenty of verses in your behalf, but you're rejecting them. You have to be willing. See, it's happening again. You look to the Bible for your own condemnation, but when you receive comfort from the Bible, you change the context, go outside it, or say it doesn't sit right with you. That isn't God closing any door. You say you're not blaming Him, but that's precisely what you're doing when you look for scriptural reasons why you're unwilling. I understand; you're mad at God. (Yes, you are too.) But are you willing for things to be different. Only you can make that decision. If you're not willing, don't quote scripture in giving your reason. There's plenty of hope there, if you're willing to accept personal responsibility for embracing it and being a godly steward of it. We're here for you. But, are you here for you?

Hey Symphony,

I appreciate the sentiment, but if the Bible says God does not listen to my prayers, and has forsaken me, then what am I to do? Ignore it?

Unless the OSAS advocates are right of course, in which case I have nothing to worry about and can do what I like ::) (I am not a fan of OSAS)

-Emma

I think Broken is in....

(http://www.scifi.com/twilightzone/img/ins_01.jpg)


(sorry, couldn't resist--just kidding)

I'm not mad at God, Whitehorse. If I was, I wouldn't be here, or not in this context anyway.
What is the comfort in the Bible? Comfort that offsets the condemnation there is? There is comfort, I do not deny that, but not for me - even the author of Hebrews simply said that he hoped for better things from his congregation in Hebrews 6, not that it was ok to turn apostate because God would take them back. And likewise with the Proverbs passage - it says that if you do listen to and look for God, you will find him, but if you have not, then you won't find him if you suddenly decide you would like to.

I am not unwilling. I have tried - but my prayers are not answered and I cannot find proper faith. What I am trying to do is to find a possible explanation for that - one that does not require a response of "God is nasty, waah waah". As I said before, I am taking personal responsibility for this - I chose to turn away from faith, I chose to leave it. Yes, I was provoked into so doing by a number of events at the time, but I still chose to do so. And I had plenty of opportunity to read the Bible, to understand what leaving would entail. I did leave, and have now found that you can't just come back and expect all to be forgiven - because the Bible says it doesn't work like that. I just have to figure out where I go from here.

-Emma

Emma, if this is trying, we need to redefine trying. Here. Take those verses I told you about. Okay? Will you do that? Step two. Remeber, I told you the context of those other verses and you rejected what I told you even though I'm very confident I handled the word of truth correctly. Okay? You don't fit in that category. Did you do what I told you about telling God you were going to just believe those verses I gave you? Or if you can't, you're willing to understand that He's the God of the impossible.

Listen. If you hear one thing I say tonight, let this be it. The Bible makes it absolutely clear that if you go to Him for refuge, you will not be denied. Now here's the true test of your willingness. Are you willing to ask Him to save you? Are you willing to ask Him for refuge? It's a simple thing to do. Not what you fear will happen after, not not why or what someone else said or what the cultural beliefs in Zambia are...just are you willing to make that simple request of God. That's it. We have to start there.

God promises that whoever comes to Him will never be cast out.

How so? You said I didn't fit into the category because I had not stopped seeking - but as I have told you, I did, back then. I did precisely what the Bible warns over and over again you must not do - forsake God. It says that if you forsake him, he will forsake you.
Yes, someone who comes to Christ, he will not cast out - but there is a bit of a difference between God casting you out and you walking away. And yes, those who believe in God have life - but the parable of the sower does say that some people don't continue in faith, but die.


How can I believe them when other verses say there is no possible point in doing so? That whether I believe or not, the issue is already settled? That none of you should even pray for me, because there is no point?


Except in certain instances - which I have already pointed out.


I have done so, over and over again - but you can talk to the wind for all the good asking without faith does. As long as I continue to doubt, it is pointless - and I cannot stop doubting, as I've said throughout this thread, I can manage the head-faith, but not the heart - and I have a feeling I just figured out why I couldn't manage that.

I have prayed that sinner's prayer so many times - but its just words, without response, without meaning really, with nothing behind it there is nothing in it. Now, I can become a God-fearer, yes, nothing is stopping me from doing that. But the end result will be the same as though I had never bothered - fire and screechin in the New Jerusalem forever, along with all the other people who weren't saved.

-Emma

Alright. I have no choice but to pull out my debate skills. You will lose the debate. You've been warned. This is not a humble statement. But it is the truth. :)

One question at a tiem. Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired woird of God? Yea or nay.

Then I should warn you that I have just completed a divinity degree, and debates bring out the worst in me. I tend to go into attack-mode when I start debating - even playing "devil's advocate" on occasion.


At the moment? No. I would say that the Bible is a collection of myths, poetry, laws, histories about a particular near eastern God who I am particularly drawn to but cannot at the moment believe in. Were I to believe, that statement might change, but at the moment, there it is.

-Emma

If that's the case, then what are you afraid of then? Your source of fear is in the Bible.

I wouldn't say I was particularly afraid, but I understand what you're getting at.
As I mentioned, I am drawn to the God of the Bible - and I use that wording deliberately. If we want to understand that God, we have to go to the Bible, as it is the sourcebook for Christianity, no matter how liberal any particular type may be, they still source their ideas about God mainly in the Bible as an historical text. Hence, its importance to me when considering belief in Yahweh.

-Emma

Another question. How can you fear a God and be drawn to a God you don't believe in?

How can you be? You said the Bible was myths and poems. Either that statement was inaccurate, or this one is.



you said it was myths. History and mythology are incompatible. The nature of one is fact, the other fiction.

For several reasons. The first being simply that I know that God rather better than any others - knowing the Bible. Second is that this particular God really is the "God of my fathers" - it is the religion I was (more-or-less) brought up in. Third, I have looked at other religions and have not found them as emotionally appealing - I subjectively prefer Yahweh to other gods.
It is quite easy to be drawn to a God you are not sure you believe in - how else would any religion gain any converts at all? Everyone starts out unsure, and finds themselves attracted to any one religion or other before becoming a member of that religion.

No one joins a religion they think is false. If the sourcebook for Christianity were myth as you say, you wouldn't be drawn to it. So we still need to know which statement you're sticking with. Either you think the Bible is false, or your statement that you're drawn to Yahweh is.

You misunderstand my use of the term "myth". I was using it as a term to refer to writings dealing with gods or heroes, not referring to false stories.


I did not say Christianity was false. See above.


Both statements are true : the Bible does contain writings dealing with the activities of God and of Israelite heroes, and therefore comes under the definition I have been using of "myth". My apologies for the confusion, I will endeavour to use clearer terms.

Okay, so you believe the Bible is true. Good; now we know what we have to work with. Since you believe the Bible is true, then you must accept 2 Timothy 3: 16-17:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This says that all scripture is God-breathed. So you would have to accept that the Bible is God's inspired word.

I was quite careful in how I phrased things. I do not believe the Bible is word-for-word true. I do believe it is, like other historical documents, biassed towards the author's viewpoint. The author being the men (and possibly women) who wrote it. I accept its spiritual truth, but not necessarily its historical truth. Though in that too, I do believe the majority of the history contained within it is true, but that certain things have been slightly altered, misremembered or similar, or placed with a slant for theological purposes.


If you are leading to a declaration of inerrancy or infallibility for the Bible here, I should say that the term "inspiration" does not necessarily imply either. It can, and I believe it does, mean that the writers were moved by God to write, but remained themselves - that it was not dictated by God but written by men, with their understanding of God.

And, obviously, I believe there is more to know about God than the Bible teaches. But that is uncontentious.

-Emma

Doesn't work. If any part of the Bible is untrue, the entire book is unreliable by virtue of the fact that the reliability has been impeached. If you accept it as true, then you have to accept that verse. Otherwise, you have to revert back to the falsehood statement. Either you think the Bible is true or you don't.

Incorrect. Quite apart from the fact that we know that certain parts of the Bible are untrue, just because such things exist does not require us to believe that the entire Bible is faulty.
You are making an either/or dilemma where none exists.

Let us take an example: we have all told a lie at some point. Therefore we should never believe a single word anyone says ever again.

True/false?

That is the false dilemma you are proposing with the Bible.

-Emma

(And on that note I will leave you for tonight, as it is late and I have to see the doctor tomorrow)

No. Religion is a quest for truth. If the Bible were to have any error whatsoever, then the testimony of the book is impeached.

Okay, good night. I'm praying for you, and I'll talk to you soon.

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken,

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life", and HE is. Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but that the world, through HIM, might be saved. These truths are very important to concentrate on, especially when you are wondering about the ultimate truths, your Salvation, and your future.

If you are saved, you are safe, like a lamb in a flock with Jesus as the Good Shepherd. You may have strayed or stumbled, but Jesus will not leave or forsake even one of his flock.

If you are not saved, Jesus will accept you, regardless of what you may have done or not done. Words and the sinner's prayer are not sufficient. Belief and thoughts from your heart are required.

http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/besaved.html (http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/besaved.html)

I'm praying for you.

In Christ.

Hi, Emma. With this information, I think the problem we have to address now actually sprouts from the seeds of something good. You understand and have embraced, as many people never do, that Jesus is both Savior and Lord. The two are inseparable, and you understand that. But you're also in a time of life when you're establishing your identity, and the Lordship part of the doctrine is difficult right now. The best way to embrace this, and this is what you need to enjoy the assurance of your faith, is to meditate on the goodness of God's Lordship, the wisdom He possesses and gives to anyone who wants it, and the fact that the earlier you embrace this the less griefs you'll have to struggle with for the rest of your life. Some people never get over their twenties. You can spare yourself that. It's important to spend a lot of time meditating on the Word, and to carefully select the influences you surround yourself with. Your number one priority must be the salvation of your soul. Anything that doesn't move you in this direction will pull you the opposite way.

Your sense of assurance may struggle, because being at peace with Christ's Lordship (and the dramatic life-change that comes with embracing that) might not come easy for a while. Growth takes time. The Lord will be faithful to lead you in this direction, as long as it's what you want, too.

The reason I think you'll be okay is, you fully understand that the Savior and Lord cannot be separated; it was in your thinking last night, but you could only (for now) embrace the Savior. That's what is drawing you. The cause of your distress is that you know you need to embrace your Lord, but don't feel you can. So that makes it easier to figure out which way to go to get your faith on track. There's a difference between faith and assurance. You have plenty of faith. It's the assurance you lack, and If you feel ready to do that, we can work in that direction.

Blessings to you.

Only if you make the book your God.

Once unreliability has been established, you no longer know what is true and what is not. It's like pulling on a piece of canvas. It's strong and very hard to rip. But once you have a tear in the fabric, it tears very easily.

Even the New Testament establishes the need for witnesses whose testimonies are unimpeached. But you don't need to go to the NT for that; I just explained the logic of it. You can call any judge or lawyer in your community and have them explain to you what an impeached testimony is, and why it cannot be accepted in court. Or, you can just answer how you could ever know what was and wasn't true in scripture if you had proof that there was any error.

Be that as it may, the Bible is still entirely true whether or not you believe it; this goes back to what I said about the Savior/Lord. You're picking and choosing what think is true because you still want to have the Savior but you're not ready to submit to Him as Lord. You're distressed because God has, in His mercy, given your heart truth: you can't have one without the other. And that's why you're not sure what you believe. You know you have to submit to be saved, you know it's the truth, but you're not ready to do that just now, so you're saying it's okay to take part of the Bible without the rest. But ultimately you know you can't do that. You need to meditate on the fact that what you *think* you're losing when you submit to His rulership is no loss at all. In fact, what you think you want will become very bitter to you if God chooses to let you have it, if it steps outside His will.

I am so happy to see the improvement and help from so many here since I joined in April.  Thank you Whitehorse.  You are gifted and very helpful.  Praise God.  

Broken,  You are good for those who pray for you and are able to see answered prayers!

Ephesians 5:19-20
Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.  Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(http://www.addamsfamily.com/addams/lurchtvlg.jpg)

Doesn't happen if you have a God as well as a book, Whitehorse. Because you can ask.


The Bible is not a valid witness of itself anyway.


Yes, but that judge or lawyer would not say that because the witness told a lie once in his life about something rather inconsequential to his testimony, therefore his testimony is invalid, would they?


By having a God rather than a piece of paper.


Nope. Did you read my posts?
And about the infallibility thing - I was thinking of the Massacre of the Innocents. Simply didn't happen. It had a theological meaning, but not an historical one. Doesn't especially bother me, but then I'm not inclined to worship bits of paper.


I no longer care, Whitehorse. As I said, I've figured out for myself why nothing was working, so there really isn't any point to any of this any longer.

Well, we do. We care, and we're still here. So what do you like to do?

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken,

The Holy Bible never ceases to amaze me. The messages, encouragement, comfort, instructions, and peace are timeless. Many people study it for a lifetime and receive something new every time they pick it up. It is far more than bits of paper. It is the Word of God. It lives because the Saviour Lives. The wealth of Goodness and Wisdom is not revealed to the casual reader. The real Content is revealed by the Holy Spirit to those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and search for the TRUTH. If you are searching for the TRUTH, you will find it in the Holy Bible.

I pray that you will seek the TRUTH. If you do, you will also find Peace, Comfort, Joy, and Assurance. The Power in HIS WORD is The LIVING SAVIOUR, one who will never leave you, forsake you, or disappoint you.

In Christ.

  Hear then ye the parable of the sower.
  When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side.
  And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it;
  yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth.
  And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
  And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it(and receiveth it with joy--hehe, I added that, hehe--Symphony); who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
                                                   
                                                     Matthew 13:18-23
             

There's no point. I could talk about the theological truths of the bible till I went blue in the face but *shrug* no point, not for me, anyway.

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken,

You may have identified part of the problem. The Holy Bible is not just another text to study in school. It is living history; past, current, and future. It is Almighty God, Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit, events that are happening now, and events that will come to pass in the future. There is Everlasting Life in the Holy Pages, including your's. Jesus is just as real and LIVING as you are.

Look at the Holy Bible as the only true and accurate history of mankind, the universe, and ALMIGHTY GOD. It is the non-fiction BEST SELLER of all time and always will be. It is real and LIVES because the words are inspired and breathed by ALMIGHTY GOD. There is no beginning and no ending. Take another look.

In Christ.

I'm praying for you, Emma...

(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WgDdAqsczTlJgwqj2gZwKFyBPrfUXp36NkF!d5JG3iXlkQISdYKB8mQMYtDN2C7Q4Y3WduCwgrcTEXiFUrzC1YfIW7KruY7pxKnOgalFjCYRpKIPqODLDYVWAMwJZfXayP1IY9HsHNk/bear-doing-summersault.gif?dc=4675414557557999483)

In Jesus' Name...

Ugghhhh. I will not bow down and worship a book, bep, no way. The Bible may be God to you, but cannot be to me.


I'll not argue that, bep, but I can believe its spiritual truth without accepting its historical truth.


Next week Harry Potter is due to outsell it.

I do read the Bible as more than a text for college. The theological truths I was talking about inspire more of a religious feeling in me than anything else. Academically, we study it partly as a normal book, but by no means entirely.

Anyway, it doesn't matter anymore. All this ends tonight ;D

Emma

"You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."  

(John 5:39-40)

(http://www.debsspot.com/baskettop.jpg)

Oh, Emma, you don't want to make an eternal mistake. Forever is a long time to regret it.

It didn't work, so I'm back, Whitehorse. Just landed me in hospital for a couple of days.

Emma, this is a situation that needs to be addressed. There's nothing you're hanging onto that's worth that. You think you'd be getting rest from pain, but you'd just be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Only this time there'd be no way out, ever. No second chance, ever. I think it's time to let go of the pain and start letting yourself heal. It's time to start embracing that faith.

Do you want to talk about what happened?

Oklahoma Howdy To Broken,

I'm having big computer problems, so I haven't be on in the last couple of days.

I want you to do yourself a favor. Please do this. Sit down in total quiet and relax for a few minutes. Think about your senses and using them to their full potential (i.e. sight, smell, touch, hearing). Wait until you have proper time to get completely relaxed and take a long walk. The walk is supposed to be an opportunity to enjoy the handiwork of Almighty God, to have a purpose in stopping, looking, touching, smelling, hearing, etc. Examine everything carefully with all of your senses and take your time. It should be the time of the year when things are blooming and life has emerged. Maybe an early evening time would be good, close to sunset. The primary purpose for the walk is to pay very close attention to many things that most people take for granted, the hard evidence of Almighty God's creation.

Don't neglect anything. Stop, look, listen, smell, touch, and glory at the majesty that surrounds you. If you do, you will see and experience absolute proof of Almighty God. Stop and don't walk by anything. Soak in everything and enjoy it. Think about how you might have felt little appreciation for all of the beauty and wonder that was always there.

Jesus has also been there all the time, and you may not have stopped to appreciate HIM. The beauty and majesty of Jesus puts everything else to shame, and HE is there with you. You can talk with HIM. Gaze into the sky and wonder how many things you have walked by and ignored. People will return this neglect, but Jesus is always ready to walk with you. Are many of the answers you are looking for in your very presence already? Have you neglected and ignored the answers for your life? Slow down, stop, listen, feel, and think about the answers that are within your reach. If your walks, thoughts, and solitude take days or weeks, do it.

I'll be praying for you.

In Christ.

I will certainly be praying for you Broken.  Depression is not of Father God.  He gives us the Fruit of joy!  Be kind to yourself. Believe and trust.  Ask Father to take control of your life.  You need alot of love and T.L.C. right now!
Love..Tamara.

Broken,
       I am sorry that I hadn't read this sooner. This is going to be a difficult post for me, cause I'm going to share with you the hurts that have caused me to be self abusive as well. I don't usually share to much, the fact that I am living ubove those things,shame, and mistrust all play a part.
     You've open up and shared a deep need. I've not read any others responses to you so this will repeat probably. But I want this to be of God so......
      Self harm can be cause by your depression, depression can be caused by deep hurts and the lack of control you feel from past hurts. So what ever caused this, its a way of controling your own pain, its like I've been hurt by others,,,, but NOW I'm in control and they aren't..... my past hurts were caused by physical, emotional, and sex abuse by family and step family members. It all began at such an early age for me that I can't remember a time when it did exist. But I do recall the age I was when I realized it wasn't "normal" and I begin to fight back, so you can imagine the wars I had as a 12 yr old, with my step uncle, and step dad.  The Lord was with me or I'd be dead for sure. There is a greater calling on our lives friend.....do you know and believe that?
      Its hard to believe that ANYONE would want to love or care for us. Let alone die for us. WHAT had I ever done to deserve Jesus, and all that. I was worthless, hated myself, full of fear (I still battle that). Felt responsilbe, hearing the constant words this is your fault, you caused it......I suppose it is a brain washing tech from my abusers, but I was doing it to myself as well.  
      Its like 2 voices in your head, your no good, and yes you are good. The cartoon of the little devil on one shoulder, and the angel on the other is how I describe this. Stress doesn't help, day to day situations that are beyond your control.....there a lot of "good" excuses too. The best way I can handle this is not allow myself any self pity. That is hard, dont let myself go there, in my head so to speak. And keep myself busy when those times come up. PRAY even when you feel worthless, and not even sure your being heard. DON'T be alone, that seesm to bring it all the the forefront. SO maybe you can go for a walk, start a good book, go to the gym, something that is a diversion for you. Have a little vicotry party when you able to maintain a few days, then a few more days, until you find yourself free of that self inflicted misery of guilt. And if you break over then forgive yourself and begin again. With day one, or hour one, how ever you have to do, DON"T let the devil have any fun tempting you, cause once he sees you gaining victory then something comes up and old habits die hard, and most def don't let him have any glory when you aren't able, if you stumble and fall forgive yourself.....make yourself if you have to PRAY, begin again.
      Medication? DO you take any? I have anti depressants to take, you have to take them. God has given us wise men and women to help with medication. so Don't feel like its a cope out......been there and done that too. Do you have someone to talk to, Pastor, Doc, Therapist? I attend group, and do some one on one therapys session. I find that after a while in group I want to help others.....and that is WAY more theraputic for me. Instead of self harm I set up my own boundaries, begin to gain control over myself and in the process I've helped someone esle. And made a friend.....I've been such a loner all my life, (why I can get into my computer emails and such) so its nice to have new face to face friends, and they know they same kind of pain.
       Set yourself an goal, one that can BE DONE no matter what, then set a little harder one.....
         I could go on for ever here, so I'll say this, YOU ARE in my prays, let me know if I can help in anyway. EMAIL or le me know I do have msn messanger, just never on, but if you need me I'll be there, or other support groups, get a hot line number from you local mental health dept. There are many resources out there. I am HEAR for you,  your my in prayer