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In the Time-Life series on WWII published in the early 1980s, there are photographs at the beginning of one volume showing the Nazi occupation of Denmark, which happened rapidly(overnight, I believe).  One full page photo shows a German soldier, on a city street, accosting and interrogating a young woman in a leapard skin coat clutching her purse, with a scared ten year old boy looking up at the soldier,  standing under her arm.  They both are obviously in shock, a very upsetting interruption to what probably was a routine walk to the store.

An accompanying caption mentions one newspaper publisher who dared to publish contradictory material about the Nazis; it says that when they returned him to the village he refused to speak about what they had done to him.

The Nazis started out originally as "brown shirts", years before--no weapons.  Just uniforms, social clubs, indoctrination, camps, outings--even good works.

When we as Christians, in the public market places, see two men(or two women) holding hands, or kissing, etc., or an otherwise obvious, open display, should we challenge??

Should we ask them first if they are homosexuals, and then tell them what they are doing is wrong?

Or, as perhaps there in Denmark,  should we wait until they are everywhere, and they have control of everything--the courts, the schools, the marketplace?

When there is an open display in the local grocery, for instance, do we confront??

Is the grocer then liable to which??  Will you be allowed in the store again, if you are viewed as causing an altercation??

Will the grocer ask you to leave?  Or will he ask the gays to leave??

If it's a small town, will you be allowed in other grocery stores, if word gets around?  Will you be able to eat?

If you don't challenge, will you be "complicit", allowing then later on the exact same scenario to occur as happened there in Denmark some 65 years ago?  If you wait until they are everywhere, will you dare to speak out then?  Would that woman have dared to say anything?--the soldier is the one with the guns, the authority, the power.

Do you wait until they have the power??

Obviously not.  To do so would be retarded (ie. protesting the war in Iraq).  We are told to preach the gospel "in season and out of season."  Now is definitely out of season.  Nobody wants to hear it, as someone told ebia in the sodomite high school debate.

Opposition to homosexuality is being aimed at behavior; not people. It is the duty of individual Christians and Christ's Church to bring the gospel to homosexuals and to speak out against the acceptance of sin in the culture. Efforts to convince society that homosexual behavior is normal should be opposed for fear of the judgment of God on individual homosexuals, society at large, and on the nation.

If you disagree move to this forum

http://www.gaychristian.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

Where is anybody's part in the solution of sin?
Prayer is the first step.
Who is talking to one who is lost, and the sins are manifested in a way where God may recieve glory from His almighty power?
Believers are the body of Christ, we all have opportunities.  Writing is one of them.  Witnessing in our walk is another.
I believe Symphony might be saying in a strong way that there is a sin that has manifested to a degree that there is a mournful situation.  And that some of us might have an opportunity to make a difference.  But there are so many mainifestations, and believe it or not there are many of His children, and an enormous amount of power in God.
I say pray that God gives us spiritual eyes and ears to know his will in our lives so that we can be open and ready for His use, for His glory, always walking in love.  Then Jesus can work through us.  Praise His Name Once Again!  
In Christ, missyann250

1 John 1:5  
  And this is the message which we have heard from him, and announce to you, That God is LIght, and with him there is no darkness.  

Ok, people. If I am in the store, and I hear someone using shocking profanity, I will complain. After all, a child could be within earshot. If I see homosexuals, how in the world will I know they are homos? After all, they are just standing there minding their own business, right? Wrong. They, like the user of loud profanity, are making a public show of sin by kissing, holding hands, etc. User of profanity, keep your noise to yourself! Homosexual, keep your noise to yourself! My children and I don't want to see it! Do not idly sit by, Christian brothers and sisters, and make a mockery of God by calling sin good.
On the other hand, I would hesitate to walk up to perfect strangers and point out their sins. It's one thing to see inappropriate behavior and make a complaint. It's another thing to challenge everyone you meet. "Hey, you over there, I think you are an adulterer! Hey you, you have sinned by not observing the sabbath!" Rather, let us reach out to every sinner (every human), by offering Jesus for the covering of all sin. After all, homos are not only sinning by their sexual acts. They were born into sin and have just as much guilt, in the very essence of their humanity, as we did before Jesus took our guilt on Himself. Praise God.

Not too long ago homosexuality was considered criminal and a  psycho illness.  Acceptance of sin no matter how nice we want to be is still acceptance of sin. Is acceptance of leaven a good idea? What is the moral responsibility of a  Christian.  The 'good Samaritan' aided a victim of sin. I doubt the 'good Samaritan would have ,if found, given the same aid to the one who beat and robbed the poor man in the ditch.

This slow invasion is how abortion became rooted in our lives.

Actually, any person with Jesus in their life abhors sin, although full of sin themselves because we are filled with the Spirit.  
Yet, it is up to God to judge at the judgment seat of Christ.  Yes, I know we are to discern.  But, we are to carry a balance that is somber, following the opportunity when presented to use all faculties in which God has prepared, or built us up.  
Example:
I knew two lesbians.  They had had every chance to see the truth, and did, but one chose one way, the other chose the other way.  

This is ridiculous as there is no such thing as a gay christian.  Next you'll tell me about all the poor offended adulters, and fornicators and how it's just so mean and wrong that they are getting a hard time from the Pastor and fellow members.  I feel so bad for them.   ::)   I feel bad that they don't get it, much like the man who told me he has a right to be angry at God because he has cancer of the liver.  All the while telling me this while being drunk and having beer bottles on the front law.  Perhaps his cancer was self induced.  Likewise many people living in sin should ask themselves that same question.

Saved4:  This is ridiculous as there is no such thing as a gay christian.  Next you'll tell me about all the poor offended adulters, and fornicators and how it's just so mean and wrong that they are getting a hard time from the Pastor and fellow members.  I feel so bad for them.    I feel bad that they don't get it, much like the man who told me he has a right to be angry at God because he has cancer of the liver.  All the while telling me this while being drunk and having beer bottles on the front law.  Perhaps his cancer was self induced.  Likewise many people living in sin should ask themselves that same question.


Nicely said, Saved.  Thanks.

There is such a thing as a homosexual Christian. That is, the one who has just been saved and perhaps still hasn't learned that homosexuality is a sin. We are being sanctified in God's good time. God reveals sin in my life on a regular basis.
However, so many homos talk of God and don't know him at all. If they knew him, they would turn away from the obvious sin in their lives and begin to grow in Christ, not parade around worse than ever. I think you can tell the dif between one who sins and is sorry, and one who sins and is glad.

I think very few people here would say that fagdom is the worst thing in the world.  However, due to its increasing prevalence in America, it does need to be addressed.  As far as the love goes, read my most recent post in the gay school thread.

Hmm, well.  Let's see.

lizmom makes a good point.  In transition, one might be a "gay" Christian, I suppose...that is, coming to Jesus and out of his/her sin...

I'm not sure that gaydom may not in fact be the worst thing, or, at least leading to the worst thing:

  1)  It is the first time in human history that a traditionally verboten human practice has been not only reversed from virtually unanimous condemnation to what now is beginning to look like wholesale endorsement, but has actually been and is being legislated(not even the infamous Greeks and Romans managed that one, on this count).

  2)  The phrase  "...when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, as spoken of by the prophet Daniel...", by Jesus, in his Olivette Discourse, implies hauntingly of exactly what homosexually is on two counts:

     A)  Homosexually is called "an abomination" in the OT, and Jesus uses that term here, and

     B)  Homosexuality leads to desolation:  It cannot produce children--the practical or physical, literal outcome of loving gotcha146.  But on the contrary, it produces nothing or, that is, desolation(i.e., no human race...).  Passing for this loving relationship, homosexuality fulfills Jesus' greatest indictment of Satan, "...you are a liar and the Father of lies...", b/c it feigns geniune "love", instead only offering you desolation(barrenness, no children) as its "reward"--emptyness--aloneness--the more you practice it, the more desolate you become.

  3)  Upon "...the wings of abomination..." of Daniel 9:27 possibly alludes to why it might in fact be, or lead to, the "worst thing that can happen in the world", as you call it, Wanderer--that is, if you agree that even as we speak homosexuality has been increasingly endorsed or at least "tolerated" by all major bureaucracies in western civilization today--that is, government(legislatures, executives, esp. the courts, as with the Sup. Court in June here in U.S.), commerce(Wal-mart, the world's largest employer with over 1 million employees worldwide, announced its extention of equal employment protection to gays, also in June), and the church(the Episcopal in world news most recently, and no-dbout others, with the Catholic beginning to show gradual resignation, despite the pope's renunciation of the practice last week).  You have schools gradually caving, law schools, public schools, colleges, and even law enforcement(Holland specifically recruits gay police officers...).  Most of the Fortune 500 companies now extend employment protection, and many of those who support, for instance, the Boy Scouts, are beginning to threaten the latter to accept gay scout masters--or else.

All is to say, Wanderer, that, at least within the various church heirarchies,  very likely it is paving the path to the ultimate "justification" that Jesus himself was homosexual.  The reason we know this is blasphemy is for the same reason you know something is definitely wrong when Philadelphia is called "The City of Brotherly Love", and the popular 1930s columnist Will Rogers said, "I never met a man I didn't like", and someone tells you then that Philadelphia was intended to be homosexual and Will Rogers meant that he was in love with men.  Similar arguments are being proffered about the love between Jonathan and David, as referred to in 1 Samuel.

But increasingly, on that last account, people will believe that--or believe that that is what was really meant, there.  This is what is meant by the "revisionist historians" we are hearing about.  They are revising earlier intentions to completely different ones today--literally blasphemous ones, in Will Rogers' and Philadephia's and David's case--that isn't what they meant at all, homosexual "love"!!   But increasingly, they will have us to believe that and, apparently, many or most people will do exactly that(to "wander after the Beast", as it says there in Revelation).
 
As I recall in NT scripture, there is one sin that apparently measures up to "blasphemy".  My guess is this is probably it, and b/c it uses the genuine article--that is, Jesus Christ--to promise what it can never deliver--that is, offspring and therefore ultimately, the "bride", or "Church", of Jesus Christ--or, in effect, something "counterfeit".  Homosexuality, effectively, is a counterfeit of the "Bride of Christ"--and we know it is counterfiet because it promises "love" but doesn't and can't deliver on the promise--that is, the "goods" or, the "children" or, specifically, His Church--or, at least, individuals who one day could at least have a chance at becoming members of His Church(by the blood of the Lamb).

Homosexuality is counterfeit b/c it can't deliver, or produce what as "love" it so beseechingly promises.  It leads to "desolation".  And that is what Satan wants.  He wants you dead.  He wants me dead.  He wants us all dead--to join him in his destiny, where there he will undoubedly not care the least about you--or if he could or would it would only be to torture or just otherwise molest you--as if the torture or molestation of Hell itself weren't already enough.  It's just a lie, but it is looking like the lie--or the beginning of--the "lie of all lies".

   

To "be gay" ie: practicing and claim Christ is a possibilty but not a truth.  You sound like the type of wishy washy, lovey dovey kind of person that like the hippies, just wants everyone to love each other.  Unfortunately this is not the case if you follow scripture.  If we look at 1 Corinthians 5:1-7 we see that a person living in sin is to be removed from the church (so much for that lovey universal church) until they areright with God again.  In fact Paul rebukes the members for allowing this person to remain among them and  1Co 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

We also see in the next verse the problem with wanderer's thought: 1Co 5:6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

I'd say I've never seen so much public attention to the sodomite issue.  There was even a "gay community day" at the new stadium here in Philadelphia.  This is a problem that is running rampant.  It's not the only problem or sin shoved in our face but still a lot of it is still thought as wrong by even the unsaved.  Pornography for instance is still thought of as wrong amongst the people yet it is the most profitable industry around.  As you can see it's not being claimed as "ok" though.  

Do you see the difference yet?  There are an ever growing amount "openly gay" TV shows now.  It started with "Will and Grace" (I still wonder about the main charaters names and their deeper meaning) and now we have "Queer eye for the straight guy", and "Boy meets Boy".  These last two blantently open homosexual shows started out on bravo and now the first is now shown on NBC and the members recently appeared on the Tonight Show.  

This issue is most assuredly being shoved in our faces and played off as an acceptable life style to which it is not.  This whole garbage argument about the "small" amount of mention in the bible is ludicrous.  It says little about cheating on your wife and lying and such.  Does this mean we should ignore these things?  I think not.  Homosexuality is so rampant we even have a denomination making a sodomite a church leader.  Talk about losing ones first love.  

I'm afraid that this abonination has gotten its claws entrenched amonst us to the point it will not be removed.  I will not be the least bit surprised if judgement were to fall on this nation very soon.

Symphony's point about the Nazi's is one of total control over us at which point we will no longer have a say at all and I see it coming.  I do believe his intentions were good but alas I must admit his transitions from subject to subject need a little work.  As far as the store situation I thought he meant to maybe bring to light their sin and present the gospel but I don't believe the behaviour I have seen before is becoming of anyone.  I don't think highly and wouldn't want two heterosexuals all over each other in public either.

Though I know many will not like this I don't see two open homosexual people in public (all over each other) being any more acceptable than a drug user "using" in public.  Both happen, I have seen it.

No actually it's a horrible point as I don't see anyone running around claiming to be a fornicating Christian or lying Christian.  Should we start little groups for each particular sin one has?  Last I checked there is a support group for sinners, it's called Church where saved sinners hear God's word and give honor and glory to him.  I don't talk about my past sins and harp on them.  If the LORD has cast them from out of his sight so should we.  Cast them away and bring glory to the LORD.  Tacking on a sinful title does nothing to glorify God but bring attention to a sin.  This isn't AA and the twelve steps program it's salvation of the soul and FREEING from sin.

Let's keep that in mind.

Hey Saved 4ever, you really made me stand up and realize where my comment was wishy-washy. You are so right on.

lizmom, i didn't think your point was wishy-washy at all. I often feel a very bad Christian because though I believe God has saved me from the effects of my sin, I still sin, every single day. I like to think I might be a good Christian one day, but it hasn't happened yet. I'm a still sinning Christian, in sex and in other ways.

The promise of forgiveness is what keeps me going.

Nonetheless, sinning without repentance (which is not just asking for forgiveness) will cause God to remove His protective covering and allow Satan to have his way with you.  You are not in His will (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Nonetheless, sinning without repentance (which is not just asking for forgiveness) will cause God to remove His protective covering and allow Satan to have his way with you.  You are not in His will (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Are you sure about this? Because it;s bad news for me if you are. I can think of quite a few sins that I did for a long time, not realising they were sins. It could be that tomorrow I will realise that something I'm still doing now is a sin. When I realise, then I can repent and ask for help in dealing with it, but for a long time I am doing sins without repenting.

And to be honest, though on a good day I can get over some sins, other ones come back over and over. I think I'm really not very good at avoiding sinning.

"Who knows the good he ought to do..."  You didn't know you were sinning; therefore, you were not sinning.  This is also emphasized by the Apostle Paul.



Yes.  :)

Hm, well, I'm thinking we might be a little off topic here.

Good to see you back, Ollie.

5020 is right.  Sinning leaves you open to Satan's attacks.  You no longer have that protective covering, grebe.

Let's see, but on the question of sinning, "My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.  And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments."  I John 2:1-3

The rest of that chapter might be good here to read too.

Saved4Ever: Quote:
lizmom makes a good point.  In transition, one might be a "gay" Christian, I suppose...that is, coming to Jesus and out of his/her sin...
 

No actually it's a horrible point as I don't see anyone running around claiming to be a fornicating Christian or lying Christian.  Should we start little groups for each particular sin one has?  Last I checked there is a support group for sinners, it's called Church where saved sinners hear God's word and give honor and glory to him.  I don't talk about my past sins and harp on them.  If the LORD has cast them from out of his sight so should we.  Cast them away and bring glory to the LORD.  Tacking on a sinful title does nothing to glorify God but bring attention to a sin.  This isn't AA and the twelve steps program it's salvation of the soul and FREEING from sin.

Let's keep that in mind


Symphony:  Okay, Saved.  You got me on a technicality.  Uncle.

Gebe,
        My heart goes out to you, what ever it is you feel convictions for, its not too late to repent. Repent is to turn away from sin, to not repeat it anymore. And don't let failure keep you from trying again and again, God will be with you, give you new strength and forgiveness everyday. I honestly believe its when we stop trying that our hearts will get hardend. It the fact that we keep seeking the strength each day. Conviction is like a berometer inside of us, we get this little feeling or knowing that say I'm not so sure about this anymore, it was so much fun, or it seemed so right but something is nagging at you, then listen to that still small voice......God is getting your attention.
     Its so scarey When you take the "WHOLE" picture in, it can be overwhelming,...... you mean I can't, I have to give up, and that, and that, You mean I can't have anymore of that or that.....well how do I have any fun. (OK lets face some sin is fun, not right or Godly but the devil has his hooks in us). SO don't look at it at a big picture, take one step at a time, your conviciton is sex  at the moment,so work on that, continue in prayer, reading, attending church, and as new life pours into you, you'll be ready to put another sin behind you. Smoking could be next, or maybe the Lord really impresses upon you to give up drinking, I don't think there is a written in stone order to what God is going to ask of you. He knows our hearts, and what we need to rid ourselves of.
   Are you a Christian, then begin right now to not do what you know the Lord is telling you to do, yes its a struggle, overcoming sin is.... some are blessed and can do it so quickly, others can't. If your not a Christian or still question your salvation you need to confess and ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins, even when you didn't know they were sins. Ask Jesus in your heart, You believed he died for you, and raised back to life in 3 days. Pour your heart out to him friend. A begin immediatly finding a church family to help you. Don't let the devil lead you anymore. It will take some sacrifice on your part, get rid of friends that keep you in a life style that you know isn't of God. Who knows maybe some of your friends need a someone to take the first step to give them strength too.
BLessings,

They have been suffering for centuries.  You just haven't been to hell to see them yet.

Hmmmmm.

No!! We should not wait until "they" have control.  If we allow them to continue in what they think is okay, then we are somewhat agreeing with them and saying it is okay.  We need to as a loving community, admonish their actions and give them counsel.  We all need and want discipline (even if "they" say they don't).  It is how we show we care.  If we let them do what they will--they will not know God's will.

If we don't say something--then we are guilty of their sin too.

I pray to God that we learn to compassionatly rebuke our brothers and sisters...And grow together.

My sentiments exactly!

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments."  I John 2:1-3"

What does it mean to "keep His commandments"? Looks as if this requires some action on the part of man. It means repenting of lying, fornicating, all sinning. Grace is not license to sin. One must maintain him/herself in Christ. The Holy Spirits sword is there to cut deep into the hearts the will of God for His people.

If christians see acts of sin in public places, they are not required to challange these sins but withdraw from them, have no part of them, and that place. Christians are a group called out of the world and are not to be a part of the sinful world. To start a ruckus over sinful public acts would be putting oneself on the same level as the sinners.

I am still learning, please forgive me if I sound ingnorant.  But we should continue to ask questions right??  

Anywho..  So ollie.. by people admonishing other people to help us grow as a whole spirit would be walking in the councel of the ungodly?  And by not partaking in their counsel whatsoever would bless us even more?

I thought that even Jesus came down to save the unrighteous and sinners.  Did not He, himself, talk with them?..  (I understand that He did not "walk" with them though).. But He told people of how God wants us to be.

Please let me know on this...   :)

LdyBluEyez

Christians with homosexuality on there minds?  i wonder if the the homosexuals spend as much time thinking and tallking about christians?  


If i wrote a book   " what GOD has done for me" i doubt it would sell  much in the  christian book stores. . .

If i wrote a book    " the  sexy dirty sins of my life"  but i could sell a  bunch  in the  christian book stores.

Have you ever tried to admonish sinners engaged in sinning in public?
Christians are told to admonish one another, not sinners engaged in their sin.

Colossians 3:12.  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
 13.  Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
 14.  And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
 15.  And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
 16.  Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
 17.  And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.


  Not sure I understand what you are asking?
If you see sin going on in public you might try counseling, out of the love of Christ for them, that it is wrong according to God's will, but if they will not hear you I suggest you walk away. Cast not your pearls before swine.

Yes, He did. All were in sin.  

Romans3:22.  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
 23.  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 24.  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
 25.  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 Yes. Christ walked in the will of God. He was sinless. It is through Him and His shed blood that we find remission of our sins when we repent of them.

Hope I answered your questions ok. I wasn't real sure I had a good understanding of what you were asking. Learning is a lifetime thing and never stops if one has a brain and we all do,
The big thing is when one learns one is wrong in what he/she has learned is that they can turn away from the error and go toward the truth.

Ollie

lol!   :'( Sad and true!  And in the "Christian bookstore".
That would be a big clue about the store and its patrons.

Should the true Christian challenge them? Does that kind of get back to the thread's topic?   ???

Unfortunately, probably true.

You are right. Previous posts gone.

Thank you.

Sinning is giving in to Satan. An action or thought completed. The attack is first, then the battle, then either victory or defeat. The victory is through Christ, the defeat through not Christ.

  The attacks come from Satan but God never allows more temptation to His than what they can handle. The protection come from being in adherence to God's will and then He will keep you safe through Jesus Christ.


And here it is:

John 2:4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 5.  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
 6.  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 7.  Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
 8.  Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
 9.  He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
 10.  He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
 11.  But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
 12.  I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
 13.  I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
 14.  I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
 15. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
 16.  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
 17.  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
 18.  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
 19.  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
 20.  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
 21.  I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
 22.  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
 23.  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
 24.  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
 25.  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
 26.  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
 27.  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
 28.  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
 29.  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


Ollie

James 1:13-15 says that we sin because we are enticed by our own desires, not by Satan.


I'm not sure I understand the point you were making here, Ollie.  Would you explain a little for me?

 1 John 3:8.  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.



1 Corinthians 10:13.  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Hebrews 2:17.  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
 18.  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


 James 1:12.  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
 13.  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
 14.  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
 15.  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 16.  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
 17.  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
 18.  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
 19.  Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
 20.  For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
 21.  Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
 22.  But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
 23.  For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
 24.  For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
 25.  But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Good point, but I was not saying that you would not be of the devil.  I was stating that the devil is not the reason for sinning.


I understood what you said, and the Bible verses therein.  I didn't get your point!

BEWARE  THE POST BELOW IS 100% CUT AND PASTE
    READ AT YOUR OWN RISK  



Because we live in an age of tolerance where almost anything goes, openly questioning or criticizing other people's belief systems can quickly get you labeled as judgmental, narrow-minded, bigoted, hateful, and even ignorant. With regard to Christianity, Matthew 7:1 is often quoted (or should I say "misquoted") as discouraging Christians from putting other religious teachings and practices to the test: "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

This interpretation of Scripture, however, is simply mistaken. The Bible clearly speaks out not against passing judgment in general, but against rendering inaccurate and unfair judgments (John 7:24). In 1 Corinthians 2:15 Paul tells us that Christians are called to make "judgments about all things." Our judgment, though, should not be based on what God has not revealed; but rather, on what He has revealed (v. 13).

 
God's revealed Word, the Bible, tells us that Jesus Christ is the only way we can possibly reach God and that there's no alternate route (Acts 4:12). It stands to reason, therefore, that other beliefs offering alleged alternate pathways to God only lead to dead-ends. And if we as Christians really want to follow our Lord's teaching to love our neighbors, we can't escape our responsibility to warn them about spiritually destructive roads paved by non-Christian belief systems (Prov. 14:12). True love and compassion should move believers to sound warning cries, even in the face of opposition, to avert countless lives from heading toward eternal separation from God.

Let's realize that when we call teachings into question, it's only because we're concerned about the eternal destinies of people. Let's also keep in mind that Scripture doesn't command us to simply rail against false teachings; rather, it encourages us to offer biblical reasons with gentleness and respect (1 Pet. 3:15). Always remember that when it comes to personal relationships, tolerance is a virtue; but when it comes to truth, tolerance is a travesty.

 Hank Hanegraaff

This thread began last Aug 15:

In the Time-Life series on WWII published in the early 1980s, there are photographs at the beginning of one volume showing the Nazi occupation of Denmark, which happened rapidly(overnight, I believe).  One full page photo shows a German soldier, on a city street, accosting and interrogating a young woman in a leapard skin coat clutching her purse, with a scared ten year old boy looking up at the soldier,  standing under her arm.  They both are obviously in shock, a very upsetting interruption to what probably was a routine walk to the store.

An accompanying caption mentions one newspaper publisher who dared to publish contradictory material about the Nazis; it says that when they returned him to the village he refused to speak about what they had done to him.

The Nazis started out originally as "brown shirts", years before--no weapons.  Just uniforms, social clubs, indoctrination, camps, outings--even good works.

When we as Christians, in the public market places, see two men(or two women) holding hands, or kissing, etc., or an otherwise obvious, open display, should we challenge??

Should we ask them first if they are homosexuals, and then tell them what they are doing is wrong?

Or, as perhaps there in Denmark,  should we wait until they are everywhere, and they have control of everything--the courts, the schools, the marketplace?

When there is an open display in the local grocery, for instance, do we confront??

Is the grocer then liable to which??  Will you be allowed in the store again, if you are viewed as causing an altercation??

Will the grocer ask you to leave?  Or will he ask the gays to leave??

If it's a small town, will you be allowed in other grocery stores, if word gets around?  Will you be able to eat?

If you don't challenge, will you be "complicit", allowing then later on the exact same scenario to occur as happened there in Denmark some 65 years ago?  If you wait until they are everywhere, will you dare to speak out then?  Would that woman have dared to say anything?--the soldier is the one with the guns, the authority, the power.
_____________________________


This is  now six months later.  Looking back, perhaps the above is reactionary, or knee-jerk.

To my thinking though, it seems even more critical that when it presents itself in my domain--that is, where I live and work, I will have to challenge.  That will mean--ultimately, compromising those in my charge, those responsibilities--in effect, putting any in  my own "circle", at risk.  

Maybe the six months has been good, but it's surprising to me that it has taken me this long just to *start* to get used to the idea, much less actually be getting used to it.

But I'm thinking it might be possible to arrange my own circumstances, not so much in a way to preserve them--which of course is the very human tendency, but perhaps to just rearrange them so that risks are reduced, and so that losses you sustain--in terms of either criminal liability, or civil liability(lawsuits), will only make sense with our general "higher calling", as Christians, to hold nothing dear to our hearts(save the Lord Jesus...).

I'm having difficulty imagining that I can in anyway ignore public homosexuality, where I live and work, without saying something.  And I realize now, that the attorneys, the civil attorneys, if not the criminal(prosecuting)ones, will likely be attracted like flies.

Pray that I will do this with love, and glory to the Lord Jesus...

In Jesus' Name

Likely it will be charges of "discrimination".

Listening to state politicians, they, or some of them, are sounding particularly adamant, about not "discriminating"(yet strangely, they exercise the freedom to "discriminate" in their choice of their "partner", over and against all other "partners" in the world...).

Even the conservatives, so-called, are careful to qualify their statements, not meaning to "discriminate".

It's like trying not to offend the Brownshirts of 1930s Germany.

OH, we mustn't offend them.  Oh, we mustn't offend them.


And then, what do you have?  You have Nazis.

And then, you don't dare offend them.

"Offer yourselves up, a living sacrifice..."

Symph,
Having not joined C-Unite until the end of ’03, this is the first I’ve seen of this thread.  I think it was a good subject six months ago, and I think it is still a good subject, and perhaps even more “in the news” today, in light of Massachusetts and San Francisco’s “First Homosexual Marriage License” (just yesterday).  

Yes, we are on the verge of being fined, or even jailed!, for speaking out against a sinful act.  (It is already so in Canada and if (when) the UN takes over it will be world law written into the new one-world religion – they will call it a heresy.)  And – it doesn’t matter how many times we speak truth and say we are speaking against the sin, not the sinner.  For the radical homosexual (those who wish to shove their lifestyle down our throats) their complete identity is their sexuality, not their personality.  When their identity is a sexual one rather than a personality (personally being one with Christ) they are abhorrent to God (in my opinion).

Something I posted in another thread on another day – from a Christian Pastor who lived through Hitler’s atrocities:

When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church — and there was nobody left to be concerned.
Pastor Martin Niemöller

We should NOT forget this lesson.  It is already evident that this time ‘they’ are coming for Christians FIRST.   Openly proclaiming Christ’s message may be as important now as it was in AD 34.

Yours in Him,
JN

Unfortunately, problems need to be nipped in the bud.  I'm not really sure just how much any of us can do.  These people know right from wrong but they choose to justify their wrongdoing.  I think (by now) the majority know the bible view.  Look at the one church (E) who's accepted the openly gay pastor!   They've changed the interpretation of the bible in ref. to what it has to say about homosexuality.  I read their website a little over a year ago and was just flabbergasted.  If I can find it again, and anyone wants to read it, let me know and I'll post the address.  It was quite interesting to say the least.

Don't know if any of you know but over 50 years ago adultery was considered a punishable crime.  Today it's a crime or "unhealthy" NOT to fornicate.  Can you imagine living in the 1800's and being able to see into the future?  What will the year 2100 bring? A bit frightening to think about it.  Sometimes I think if the book of Revelation warned us about these things, I'm not sure there's too much we can do.  PLEASE don't berate me on this one because I'm not saying we should do nothing --  which brings to mind another good subject  --  MARTYRS, which, I think I'll start a new post on.

God help us, guide and direct us.  Show us what you would have us do in the name of Jesus Christ.

Thank you, JudgeNot.  I think i've heard of Niemoller--seen his picture, I believe.


Yes, Chris,  I see what you mean.  


We need to be walking in the Spirit at all times--to know when to "fold'm, and when to hold'm".  

The question was asked and then it has gotten off track.

Let me give it a shot.

Jesus was walking through town and saw Merchants all around the city.  He never condemns them; I would be more inclined to think that Jesus bought stuff from them from time to time for his personal needs.  But when Jesus walks into the temple and sees these same merchants defiling the House of God, He rips them up and down, turns their tables over and beats them till they scatter from the House of God.  Jesus was very Loving, But his Love was Directed at His Father and His Fathers House.


My opinion;  I will not confront a queer in the store for Holding hands, I will not stay around them and if I have a little one with me of reasonable age of understanding I will instruct that little one as to the nature of that or any sin.  If I see a Homo making a run for any office in our Gov. I will stand against them by my Vote.   But when I see a Homo taking the pulpit or any place of leadership in the church,I will act and attempt to drive them out.  The only open place for any open sinner is the "sit quitely" spot or the Alter of Repentance.  

Any sinner is welcome to come to Church, only repentant sinners who have come to Christ and have been raised up from the Dead and have proven themselves to be true may become a Teacher/ Pastor Etc Those who have forsaken sin.


Well there you have it. MYOPINION.
early57

Ah Early57, it's so good to see you again!

Jesus was walking through town and saw Merchants all around the city.  He never condemns them; I would be more inclined to think that Jesus bought stuff from them from time to time for his personal needs.  But when Jesus walks into the temple and sees these same merchants defiling the House of God, He rips them up and down, turns their tables over and beats them till they scatter from the House of God.  Jesus was very Loving, But his Love was Directed at His Father and His Fathers House.

 :D

Yes, welcome back, Early.   :)


Yes, Jesus came not to condemn the world(John 3:17).  That is true.

Maybe like someone said recently:  Which hill do you want to die on?

At some point the wrongness has to be challenged, or rebuked, or exposed.  With a cost, I suppose.  

But true, the risk is that you will be wrong yourself, or that you will do it wrongly.  

My "thesis" is that there are still some young people out there who're looking to the "adults" of this world to say something--just to say something.  Even if they aren't looking for it, by virtue of their youth alone, and their inexperience to this wild and crazy world, they at least deserve it??


Many "adults" are saying little, if anything.  Many of them/us, care only for our own security.   The homosexuals are instinctively picking up on this "insecurity", and exploiting it.

And we are failing our young people miserably.

The gay thing is blatantly wrong.  They aren't here, incidentally, about homosexuality, at all(I'll pick this up on separate thread).

I'm thinking I will prefer to die on this hill.  If I have the "courage", which of course only God can give??

In Jesus' Name...

Perhaps, ebia, if we're allowed to still be "human" even as we are Christians?

Yes, Jesus came not to condemn the world(John 3:17).  That is true.

Which hill do you want to die on?

At some point the wrongness has to be challenged, or rebuked, or exposed.  With a cost, I suppose.  

But true, the risk is that you will be wrong yourself, or that you will do it wrongly.  

My "thesis" is that there are still some young people out there who're looking to the "adults" of this world to say something--just to say something.  Even if they aren't looking for it, by virtue of their youth alone, and their inexperience to this wild and crazy world, they at least deserve some clarification??


Many "adults" are saying little, if anything.  Many of them/us, care only for our own security.   The homosexuals are instinctively picking up on this "insecurity", and exploiting it.

And we are failing our young people miserably.

The gay thing is blatantly wrong.  They aren't here, incidentally, about homosexuality, at all(I'll pick this up on separate thread).

I'm thinking I will prefer to die on this hill.  If I have the "courage", which of course only God can give??

In Jesus' Name...

onestarfisher here has posted some very good ideas about what she is doing--wearing shirts with "homosexuality is a sin",  Jesus loves you.  You should read her posts--including her first ones, elsewhere here.


I'm thinking I'm going to begin to do this, in the small town wear I live.  Since I commonly wear either a sweatshirt(winter), or pocket t shirt, this will be fairly easy to do.

The gays have a small but fairly outspoken presence here already; I suspect sympathies in that direction are only growing.

Lord willing, I think I will begin to prepare these shirts.  I may just try ordinary white house paint, painted with a one inch brush, on the shirt.

Oklahoma Howdy to Chris,

Adultery is still on the books in Oklahoma as a felony, but it hasn't been enforced since the 50s. Unnatural acts are also still on the books as a felony. Unlawful cohabitation may still be on the books in Oklahoma. It really isn't a pretty picture about the drastic decline of morals in this country since they took prayer and the Holy Bible out of public schools. It's only been about 50 years, but they are a terrible 50 years.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I don't know about them openly holding hands in a store or anything - here, it's not uncommon to see. I did go to a street fair near a university and two men were standing on the sidewalk french kissing very ferociously. Then they laughed and looked around. I took my finger and opened my mouth and made the in and out motion, like "gag me". It was all I could think of at the time.

Another thought as I'm reading thru this thread. You can get an umbrella policy on your car insur (Amer Fam, maybe others as well) for only $100 a year or a little more - it's good for a million dollars and protects against being sued for slander among other things....or something like that. I'm thinking about it. For writing, there is some kind of authors insurance you can get. Or publishers...

It seems a little absurd to me that I am even worrying about this at all, but glad I'm not the only one. It boils down to trying to figure out how to be a witness for Christ without giving it all up ( a worry I'm not defending in myself , but isn't hat the gist of it?). At least in my life. Somehow, trying to protect it all and hold it together. I don't think it's wrong to minimize risk - that's just smart, how many can you win in jail. But I really think there will come a time (soon) when it is simply unlawful to speak out about anything Christian.

Then what? I have asked myself. What are we supposed to do then? Keep speaking, and go to jail, which might be the right thing to do....or, "go into your closet until the indignation in past" or something like that. I don't have the exact scripture handy.....here it is, Is 26:20 ..which?? I don't know.

You raise some interesting points, onestar.

In some ways, it may depend all on how one approaches it.  Walking with Jesus, has it's on invisible twists--built-in self-healing safety valves, and the like.

One thing your opponent is always counting on, is that you will lose your cool.  Ideally, that's what walking with Jesus really is about, "coolness".  He never lost His, right up to the very last.

Equally true, walking the gay road, and the sin road generally, has its own twists too--but while they may look for a time to be self-healing and beneficial, their end is the way of destruction.  Many times that unfolds sooner than later.  

That's what we're trying to warn them about.  That's the whole point.  They're losing.  They're losing their lives.

In the light then of such a test, consequences are becoming secondary.  "Since then we are surrounded by so great a crowd of witnesses..." (Hebrews).

But yes, I've heard of some who take those kinds of legal precautions.  The host at endtime.com, for instance, Irvin Baxter, on his radio program, has said he consulted about the lawsuit thing, since he is quite outspoken, but not unkind at all, about the gay thing; so his organization is incorporated, which offers some protection, I think.

*
Symphony:
<< The Nazis started out originally as "brown shirts", years before--no weapons.  Just uniforms, social clubs, indoctrination, camps, outings--even good works. >>

*

   I share your concern about the homosexual movement, but I have to say that the Nazis had guns early on.
    In the online World Book: “By October 1923, the [SA] storm troopers numbered 15,000 members.  They had a considerable number of machine guns and rifles.” (see Hitler)  This is ten years before Hitler became Chancellor.  The Storm Troopers “terrorized opponents.” (see Nazism)
*

Hmm.  Thank you, Dale.  Well, I guess I was giving them more credit than they deserved.  So they did have guns very early on.

Maybe I was thinking they just didn't use them--that is, at least with impunity.

I remember a documentary, that once Hitler achieved office in 1933, he had his bloody footprints, any records, from the 1920s, expunged.  That would certainly be very human.

And a book several years ago, that Hitler himself murdered, or had a former gay partner, murdered, to cover his own tracks(I think he'd been the head of the Stormtroopers...?).


thanks for your help on that, Dale.