Baptists vs. Speaking in Tongues

[Heidi]

I believe that most people have TOTALLY misinterpreted scripture in the matter of the speaking in tongues. In Acts, 2:7, the bible says; "Utterly amazed they asked: 'Are not all these men who are speaking Gallileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?'" This SPECIFICALLY means that people who are listening to someone speaking in French, for example, actually HEAR it in their own native language. This does NOT mean that the Gallileans were saying; "heebegeebeebobbaluoie, but rather that they were speaking in THEIR OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE and the Holy Spirit was translating that into each person's native language. The bible is VERY clear about this. This was an absolute MIRACLE, not to be taken lightly nor to be misused in order to make one feel spiritually mature. But the nature of pride in all of us can easily lead us to want to show our spiritual maturity by pretending that we are speaking in code. This is absolute nonsense and not at all scriptural.

[MalkyEL]

I believe that most people have TOTALLY misinterpreted scripture in the matter of the speaking in tongues. In Acts, 2:7, the bible says; "Utterly amazed they asked: 'Are not all these men who are speaking Gallileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?'" This SPECIFICALLY means that people who are listening to someone speaking in French, for example, actually HEAR it in their own native language. This does NOT mean that the Gallileans were saying; "heebegeebeebobbaluoie, but rather that they were speaking in THEIR OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE and the Holy Spirit was translating that into each person's native language. The bible is VERY clear about this. This was an absolute MIRACLE, not to be taken lightly nor to be misused in order to make one feel spiritually mature. But the nature of pride in all of us can easily lead us to want to show our spiritual maturity by pretending that we are speaking in code. This is absolute nonsense and not at all scriptural.

The disciples were actually speaking in a language that was unknown to them.  As Paul said, I speak in languages [tongues] more than you all.  He also said in 1 Cor 14:2 that when you speak in a tongue, no one can understand you but God, therefore; it is better to speak 5 words in a language that is understood, than 10,000 words in an unknown language that no one understands [vs 19].  He also said in vs 5 - I wish all of you spoke in languages, and in vs 6 - if I come to you speaking in tongues that you do not understand, what does it profit? and again in vs 9 - if you do not give a clear word in a language that is understood, you would be speaking to the air.

The languages that were given at Pentecost were indeed a miracle.  I do not believe they were speaking in a gibberish language with repeated syllables over and over again - which is so prevalent in those churches who continue to misuse this gifting.  The gift of God is given *as His Spirit wills*.

The tongues that is practiced today is *as the person wills*.  You just start up and the "spirit" causes you to babble on and on - you could keep it up for hours [been there, done that, over it  ;D].  My question is, what "spirit"?  

There were not just 12 disciples who received this gift, but 120 men and women - they were each speaking a tongue or language unknown to them, but known to the hearer.  

The word for tongue in Greek - is a spoken language or dialect.

Thayer's Lexicon and Strong's  #1256  dialektos [tongue]

1) conversation, speech, discourse, language
2) the tongue or language peculiar to any people

Shalom, MalkyEL  8)

[bluelake]

Speaking in tongues?
In Acts 2:6-10, the people gathered there spoke in known languages. I haven't heard of that occuring today. Glossolalia
is called a prayer language by some folks.
There is one church that teaches a person must speak in tongues ( glossolalia) to be saved. This is not scriptural.
God doesn't give his gifts to unbelievers. Any one who receives any gifts of the Spirit are saved before the gifts are given. A person is saved when they are born again. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. We don't save ourselves.
btw, witches, Mormons, pagans, and unbelievers also speak in tongues. Be careful.  

God bless,
bluelake.

I have a big problem with tv healers. (Benny Hinn) He touches folks on the forehead and they fall backwards. Someone is conveniently positioned behind them to catch them.  
That isn't found in scripture.

[MalkyEL]

Speaking of Benny - here are some interesting articles on him - he is a false prophet and preaches another gospel.

http://www.letusreason.org/b.hinn.htm

[Jemidon2004]

I think all the posts on here are excellent. blue and heidi and malky all three made some interesting points. I find it hard to believe that tongues were used as a 'prayer' language. True the Scriptures do talk about Tongues being an unknown language, but also, as blue posted in Acts 2:6-10, the people gathered there spoke in known languages. the babbling that is heard today is not the tongues of the Early Church age. Through a little studying i've found that the ones who were there heard it right in their own language. I don't think there is a need for tongues today considering we have translation devices and translators. another thing. Tongues weren't used for prayer, they were used to spread the Gospel. The 'babbling' as we see today is nothing more that just that. and about benny boy, someone needs to put him in a straight jacket and sit him down and show him that some of the stuff he spouts off with ain't Scripture...i'm done with my two cents...lol Lord Bless ya

In His Service,
Joshua

[Heidi]

Malky,
 I think what Paul was referring to in those passages was warning people not to try and make up languages to show their spiritual maturity. The pentecostal phenomenon is something that CANNOT be imitated at will. It was a miraculous manifestation of the Holy Spirit and should be treated as such. But the passages I quoted still only refer to hearing other NATIVE languages in their own native language. There is, however, room for interpretation in the passages you quoted which is why there is a split in agreement between scholars on this issue.

[MalkyEL]

Heidi,

While I can't agree with your take on Pentecost - the same word for tongues is used - you cannot just subsitute a definition when the same word is used - contextually, Paul was referring to the same gift - I do agree that it cannot be imitated by the pentecostal, charis, word of faith movement.

The kind of tongues used today was warned against by Paul and I believe demonic in nature - although I will get blasted by saying that  

Far be it from me to enter in a discussion with scholars, as I am not one   .  Scholars usually have theological bias - I try to steer clear of that by all means  

Shalom, MalkyEL  

[Heidi]

I definitely agree with you that the usage of tongues today is demonic. But i do think that the passages at pentecost were true native languages. But i do concede that it can be interpreted differently.

[Shylynne]

The kind of tongues used today was warned against by Paul and I believe demonic in nature - although I will get blasted by saying that  


You  speak boldly concerning a  spiritual matter of which you obviously  have no personal experience.  Those who are filled with the spirit will not blast you at all, rather accept such a statement for what it is, that being unlearned babbling.

[MalkyEL]

The kind of tongues used today was warned against by Paul and I believe demonic in nature - although I will get blasted by saying that  


You  speak boldly concerning a  spiritual matter of which you obviously  have no personal experience.  Those who are filled with the spirit will not blast you at all, rather accept such a statement for what it is, that being unlearned babbling.

I fully embraced the Word of Faith/Charismatic/ Pentecostal/Full Gospel theology and spoke in tongues for 7 years, after having hands laid on me.  By that I mean, I spoke as I believed at that time, and was given utterance by the "spirit".  I "prayed" day and night, so I am more than familiar with both the theology and the practice.  I studied tongues in that venue and persuaded others as well, and laid hands on  others so they would also "be filled".  I am no longer part of that venue, nor do I pray in tongues any longer, believing that what I was doing was not Scriptural.

satan comes masquerading as an angel of light - he laid out his plan well in advance, by using men who got their thelology through paganistic influences, not because they studied Scripture for proof of this "theology". If you are truly interested in the origin of today's phenomenon, known as glossololia, please read the documented articles on this site:

http://www.seekgod.ca/topicwaves.htm#tongues

[Shylynne]

You verified my point MalkyEL. I knew you had Charismatic experience, but you obviously had no experience with the real thing or you would`nt be calling it demonic. Maybe I should have called it learned babbling     When we talk of God, and spiritual matters pertaining to Him, it has nothing to do with "men who got their thelology through paganistic influences" or satan himself for that matter.  Every child of God is or should be aware there are conterfeits, but that does not make the power  of God any less genuine.  
I know people who say God does`nt perform miracles today, tell that to a man or woman or child that has been healed thru His name.  So it is with telling a man who has experienced the power of God within.  Jesus said in Luke 11:11  "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?"    If a man asks GOD  for the infilling of His spirit and the experience of speaking in tongues, God does NOT  give that man a spirit from satan.  
I  think many christians today have become so fearful of satans counterfeits, and have become so focused on his power (one of his tactics we should be most aware of) it causes them to forget or overlook the power of God, and oft prevents them from accepting all the good gifts God has to offer us and desires to give to His children. Personally I think we have nearly theologized Gods power to death. It would benefit christianity greatly if more men of God would get their noses out of a theology book, and quit trying to define God and His Word with human reasoning,  and  press into the realm of the spirit where God is above all.

2Ti 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2Co 9:15  Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

[Heidi]

No, actually i think the reason men become confused and misuse scripture is because of the sin of pride. Pride is SO insidious in all of us that we rewpond out of it to glorify ourselves all the time. The absolute ONLY way one can determine if his behavior is coming from the Holy Spirit or the sin of pride is to be scruntinizingly honest with himself about his motives. The question then shoud be; "Am I doing this for God's glory or my own"? That is why Jesus tells us to pray in private because then we KNOW it's an honest communication with God rather than wanting the praises of other men. Confronting the sin of pride is uns can be EXTREMELY humbling and uncomfortable which is why huamn nature avoids it like the plague. But looking at the plank in our own eye is ESEENTIAL toward growing closer to God. It just depends on what one wants more; to grow closer to God, or to look spiritual in the eyes of men. They are mutually exclusive.

[MalkyEL]

I totally agree, Shylynne -

That is why I have walked away from man's theologies and prefer to study only God's Word.  I use concordances to do word studies, but other than that I steer clear of man's traditions.

I wonder if you looked at the site I gave you - perhaps not.  It is up to you to be a Berean. The tongue issue is man's theology, not God's.  I received the same spirit that others receive when in the charismatic movement and as taught by the  teachings of the "fathers of that faith" - Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Oral Roberts, etc.

When Jesus said He would not give a snake instead of stone, or not give you His Spirit when asked, has nothing to do with tongues.

Jesus clearly pointed out that His Spirit indwells all believers at the moment one believes in Him as the Son of God and Savior from sin.  There is no other "baptism".  The other fillings referred to in Acts is a giving of ability or empowerment/anointing to do what God calls you to do.

There are many scriptures that point to the fact that salvation and the giving of the Holy Spirit are not the works of man, but rather the grace and blessing of God.  To say that one needs to be rebaptized in the Spirit is not the gospel of Jesus.

The baptism at Pentecost was the fulfillment of the prophecy in Joel, which was an impowerment to preach the gospel, as Jesus spoke in Acts 1:8.  The tongues or languages were given to preach the gospel.  There is simply no example in the NT of people praying in tongues - every instance shows praise and the revelation of God's works - which includes His work in and through Jesus for salvation to evangelize the nations.

The charismatic movement was concepted around the 1900's and is a movement based on manifestations of the spirit.  There are no examples among the disciples that received that kind of manifestation which is consistent in the charis movement - they gave us, by precept and example, all the God chooses to give us.

I believe in the giftings, healings, and move of the Spirit - but His move does not take humans and throw them across the room, or cause them to convulse, shake, laugh, jerk, bark like dogs, or run hysterically around the room - neither is there such a thing as "slain in the Spirit". Every example of people falling over in the presence of God was due to Fear, not estactic euphoria - which is the feelings manifestations that are present in the charis movement.

I understand where you are coming from.  I was there once myself - believing that manifestations from God were important to ones walk, convinced that without them God's Presence was not real.  God's desire is that we believe in Him for Himself, not what He can do for us or provide for us, but we were created for the praise of His glory, doing all He has predestined for us to do as He wills.

The Spirit of God lives within us.  Jesus said that He and the Father would make their home within us by the Holy Spirit - we are not to reach out for or live in the realm of the Spirit - I do not believe you can prove that Scripturally.  That again promotes man's search to reach a higher level of spirituality which is called mysticism.

I know that you do not agree with me.  I understand that because of how I once believed myself. The concern of my heart is that so many have been sucked into exactly what Paul warned us of - that in the last days a deceiving spirit would be sent from God to test His people - a lying spirit showing signs and wonders that many would follow.

1 Timothy 4
1 ¶ But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, cleaving to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons,
2 in lying speakers in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,

2 Timothy 4
1 ¶ Then I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, He being about to judge the living and dead at His appearance and His kingdom:
2 preach the Word, be urgent in season, out of season, convict, warn, encourage with all long-suffering and teaching.
3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts, they will heap up to themselves teachers tickling the ear;
4 and they will turn away the ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths.

2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4
9 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,
10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.
11 And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
12 that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.

For those who believe that God's righteous are those who are in the church choosing to believe what is not the gospel of Jesus, these verses pertain to them as well.  It is not about the salvation of Christianity, for Paul was speaking to Christians - but rather about a love for God's Truth.  As Jesus said, the path of salvation is narrow and few find it.

[iconHis]

 I agree with a lot of what you said MalkeyEl! Actually that was displayed quite clearly and I have studied this quite extensively, at least for my character, lol, just kidding.  

Anyway, I have studied as you, I will hear the word of God, do word searches and study after a lesson.

I have not found a scripture dated after 63 AD that has shown foreign languages to be used or healing for spreading the gospel or signs. Paul even suggested that Timothy drink a little wine for his stomache because he couldn't do anything. This is the year, roughly, that salvation was given over to a nation bringing forth fruits.

 
   In Christ, iconHis