Baptists vs. Speaking in Tongues

[fastback]

Greetings once again,

I was raised Southern Baptist. And although my family and I moved our membership to a Bible Church last year, I still believe just as I always have. (The only real difference is this new church has better music! ) Therefore - because of my Baptist background - I have absolutely no experience with people speaking in tongues. Never seen it; never heard it happen.

Then, a friend emails me asking about it. I can easily find it in the Scriptures, and realize it may indeed be a gift from God to some people. But I also heard that one must renounce it when joining a Baptist church. Anyone else ever heard of this before? I've moved my membership from one Baptist church to another (as we've moved across the country), and never once been asked about it. Is it only if you're moving from an Assembly of God that you're asked? And why must one renounce it?

Just another one of those things I should have looked into long ago! Any guidance or opinions is greatly appreciated!

[His Messenger]

In accordance with Paul's teaching in I Corinthians 12-14, the temporary need for spiritual gifts that existed at the beginning of this dispensation has been superceded by the completion of the written word of God. The "perfect" written word of God now having come, spiritual gifts have been "done away."

His Messenger

[MalkyEL]

His Messenger wrote:
In accordance with Paul's teaching in I Corinthians 12-14, the temporary need for spiritual gifts that existed at the beginning of this dispensation has been superceded by the completion of the written word of God. The "perfect" written word of God now having come, spiritual gifts have been "done away."

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If I may humbly disagree  

I think there is some disagreement about what "the Perfect" is - although I believe it is referring to Jesus' return, not the written word.  I say this because Paul makes a comparison statement in this text, not an instruction or directive.  

In 1 Cor 13 - he says do not forbid speaking in tongues, in 1 Thess 5 - so not despise prophecies, in James 5 - prayer for healing and so on.

Getting back to the tongues issue - which is really the subject of this thread.  Let's back track and see why tongues was given.

In Act 1:8, Jesus says He will give power to preach the gospel.  On Pentecost, Acts 2 - the power to present the Gospel in the presence of the Holy Spirit was so strong that Peter, who had never preached a sermon in his life, was empowered to bring over 3,000 to belief in Jesus.

So, imho, tongues is for the preaching of the gospel in a language that is in unknown to the speaker.  It appears as if this gifting was also given for the same reason in the few places that it is described.

Paul addresses this issue in 1 Cor 14.  I have heard that he was addressing the use of tongues in an incorrect way and therefore was reprimanding the Corinthians.  I have heard of examples today of people speaking to others in a language they do not know and it being the gospel.  

The gifts of the Spirit were given to edify, encourage, and instruct the believers.  I do not believe that has changed.  It has been misapplied, imho, in most cases.

Although, I was once a part of the denoms that practice personal speaking in tongues, or personal prayer language - I can find no scriptural support for that.  It is likely that it is of demonic roots - I do have documented information on that if anyone is interested.

In 1 Cor 14, when Paul refers to speaking in tongues, I believe he meant he was preaching to many different people groups and was given the gift to preach in a language that he did not know - the greek word for "tongues" in really language.
 
Also, his reference to praying and singing,- "in the Spirit" is not speaking in tongues, but rather being led by the Spirit.  Haven't we all been led to pray for someone and know that God is giving us the words?

The only other tongues that is referred to as far as giftings goes, is that they must be interpreted to be recognised as from God, which leaves the personal prayer language concept unsupported.

My understanding of a Bapist standard of renouncing tongues is because that particular denomination agrees with His Messager, that the gifts have ceased.

Shalom, MalkyEL

[AVBunyan]

Just another one of those things I should have looked into long ago! Any guidance or opinions is greatly appreciated!

The Gifts

All right – tongues – easy if you take the Bible as it stands and understand how God deals with Israel as a nation. Most make issue of prayer languages, interpreter or not and never cover what tongues are really for.  Let’s get down to the basics.  Remember, God deals with Israel as a nation differently than he deals with the body of Christ today.  

According to the Bible tongues are for a sign (1 Cor 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign,…).  The verse didn’t say tongues were for your personal edification, prayer time, public worship service, etc.  Tongues are for a sign.  Now, who require signs in the Bible?  The Jews require a sign (1 Cor 1:22  For the Jews require a sign,….).  Why did the Jews require a sign?  It was a part of their history.  When God and Moses had their conversation at the burning bush Moses said (and I paraphrase), “They are not going to believe me.”  The Lord said, “I will give you some signs to authenticate your ministry.”  Moses went to them and did signs and wonders and they believed.  When the Lord came to Israel in the gospels he came with signs to authenticate his ministry and some believed. In fact the Pharisees came seeking a sign - Mat 12:38  “Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.”  After Christ arose he gave the apostles the signs to authenticate their ministries they went about doing signs and wonders.

Next, tongues were not for believers but for unbelievers – “not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: - I Cor. 14:22.  This is the clincher.  Moses went to Jews who were unbelievers of his ministry.  Jesus went to an unbelieving Israel with signs.  Paul went to unbelieving Israel with signs.  Also, the Jews were “unbelievers” in the sense that they did not believe that God would not bless the Gentiles.  In Acts 2 where the signs and wonders took place Peter preached to thousands of “unbelieving Jews” and they believed after the message with signs and wonders (Acts 2:43).  

Today tongues are used in churches for believers – in other words done for the edification of the speaker or hearer, which is contrary to I Cor. 1:22 and 14:22 (note both verses are 22 – can’t beat the book!)

Now, when you use your “tongues” in your church service are there any unbelieving Jews there?  Maybe and maybe not but most likely not.  When you are using “tongues” in your private prayer closet are there any unbelieving Jews there?  

Let’s wrap it up – When God deals with Israel as a nation he uses signs and wonders as authentication.  God is not dealing with Israel as a nation today – God is dealing with individuals.  Tongues are for a sign and to unbelievers, not believers.  Tongues are a sign of judgment to the unbelieving Jews.   Also, unbelievers are “believing “ Jews in Acts who were didn’t believe the Gentiles could get in on the blessings.

Tongue speakers are not following this today one bit.  I really don’t care about how good tongues feel to you and how excited you get when you utter your “tongues”.  When you pray and speak in tongues are you doing it as a sign to unbelieving Jews?  I don’t care if you saw millions at once speaking in tongues.  What you saw were millions of deceived people led by an unclean spirit.  They may be nice, polite, Bible-quoting people but they were deceived while they were nice, polite and quoting scripture.

I know you have a lot of verses you get from I Cor 14 but remember Paul is rebuking a carnal church of a misuse of a doctrine to the point where he calls them children in malice.  Why you think you can find anything positive there to support your tongues beats the fire out of me.

Don’t judge tongues by your experience – judge your experience by the Bible.  Anybody can think they speak in tongues.  I’ve even seen people “practicing” their tongues so they wouldn’t lose them!  Please, people!  The great men of God of old wouldn’t and didn’t mess with that stuff for a minute and God used any one of them more then 10,000 tongue speakers today.

But you say, “Yes, but I still know what I know and I speak in tongues and others do so that proves it!”  Fine, base your doctrine on feelings and experience and ignore the plain teaching of scripture.

Again, one last time with feeling – UNTILL YOU UNDERSTAND THAT GOD DEALS WITH ISRAEL AS A NATION DIFFERENTLY THAN HE DOES WITH THE BODY OF CHRIST TODAY THEN YOU CAN FORGET UNDERSTANDING THE GIFTS!

That's my take on the gifts.

May God bless  

[MalkyEL]

AV Bunyan,

While I agree with your perception of tongues, I would have to ask you a couple of questions, just for clarification.

#1)  When the Jews asked Jesus for a sign, He said, they were an unbelieving people and His sign was the sign of Jonah, so how do you deduct that tongues are for unbelieving Jews only?

#2)  Paul's letter to the Corinthians were not to a predominately Jewish population, but to gentiles - see cor 12 where he lists the gifts of the spirit and the five fold "ministry" gifts - again how do you view this as for Isra'el only?

PS: as a former "tongue talker"  I completely agree with you on the feelings,etc - I discovered, through the help of a God-given friend, that relationship with God is not dependent on doing things for Him.  I was taught that tongues was a "spiritual door" to a greater awareness of God and His ability to reveal Himself, His Word and His will to me via my tongues.  The mistake that religion often makes is that we can do something to earn God's favor or His acceptance.  We need to understand His Grace is based on *only* that, not what we do or the position we take.  His grace blesses us *in spite of* and not *because of*.

[AVBunyan]

Thanks for your response and your questions are good.  My eyes are tired and I need some rest before I tackle your questions if you don't mind.  I am off tomorrow so I can be better equipped to respond to you.  Plus I'm not sure of your questions - maybe because I'm just out of it right now - we call it "delirious" in our household.  If you want to rephrase then that would be fine too -thanks.

Thanks again and I enjoyed your testimony and your thoughts on grace.

May God bless  

[MalkyEL]

Actually, AVBunyan, I will withdraw my questions.  After re-reading your perspective I find that it is not worth it to go through and rework a subject that would take me immense time and effort to disuade you of your perceptions of Isra'el versus the church.

Although, I understand where you are coming from, having been in that same camp myself at one time - you have a good understanding of the tongues issue, but I feel that you have missed the broader picture in regard to the gifts.  Paul was called to the gentiles.  He also made a rather concerted effort to point out that in Christ, there is no Jew or Greek [gentile], no male or female, no free or slave.  In Christ we are Isra'el and all must be grafted into the Vine regardless of ethnicity.  See Romans 9,10,11

I pray you get some rest  

Shalom, MalkyEL  

[Sower]

Paul was called to the gentiles.  He also made a rather concerted effort to point out that in Christ, there is no Jew or Greek [gentile], no male or female, no free or slave.  In Christ we are Isra'el and all must be grafted into the Vine regardless of ethnicity.  See Romans 9,10,11

The issue is not whether there is Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ.  The issue is the prophecy given to Israel regarding tongues, and it's fulfillment and application to the apostolic period. Paul himself tells us the significance of tongues for Jews vs. Gentiles in 1 Cor. 14:20,21 which takes us back to Isa. 28:11,12. "WHEREFORE TONGUES ARE FOR A SIGN, NOT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT..." Which corresponds to "FOR THE JEWS REQUIRE A SIGN..." (1 Cor. 1:22).

Tongues on the day of Pentecost were to convince the Jews who had come from afar that the Gospel had come down from Heaven, since it was proclaimed supernaturally in foreign languages never before spoken by Galilean apostles, as a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy [which does NOT refer to tongues but to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit with the result of prophecies and visions among the Jews: "And ye shall know that I AM IN THE MIDST OF ISRAEL, and that I am the LORD your God..." (Joel 2:27)].

This has nothing to do with the sign of the prophet Jonah which was to establish the claims of Christ as Messiah: "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it up in three days".

The gift of tongues was never meant to take a place of prominene amoung Christians. Today's glossolalia is something else entirely, and has nothing to do with genuine tongues
.

[MalkyEL]

AVBunyan,

We are on the same side of the fence!!!  really!!!  

I was just wondering why you perceived that the sign of tongues was just for the Jews, when the Corinthians had the gifting also, and were not Jewish.

I totally agree that tongues was given at Pentecost as fulfillment of the Joel prophecy - now that one is hard to miss - as it's exactly was Peter says.

However; Paul also forbade any instruction to stop tongues or prophecy from being used.  It is a gifting.  I agree that today's glossololia is out of order and an unclean spirit.  It's roots are from demonic tribal activity in Africa and brought over here by "missionaries".  I also agree it has taken over a certain segment of Christianity and is grossly applied, misued, and euologized to the detriment of Truth.

The one thing I disagree on is an "apostolic period" in which we attempt to apply other doctrines or to apply cessation of giftings.  There is absolutely no premise for that.  The verse in 1 Cor 13 is referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus.  To refer to the "Perfect" as the Bible, is stretching it. Paul had the OT, and to him that was the Word of God.

Back to what Jesus had said - in response to the Pharisees asking for a sign continually - Jesus said that no sign would be given for His authority other than the sign of Jonah - that Jesus would also be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights.

Again, in 1 Cor 14 - Paul was referring to ALL unbelievers, not just Jewish ones - he was writing to the Corinthians who were Greek/Romans.
 
Also, I must emphazise that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was for the preaching of the Gospel - which is why Peter was given such boldness to proclaim it.  The tongues at that point were for a sign, but also to enable them to preach the Gospel in a foreign tongue to unbelievers - that being the sign as referred to by Paul. Remember, the term "tongues" is an English term misapplied to the actual phenomemon - the actual Greek is "languges" - actual dialects - not the "heavenly" lanuages of glossololia fame.

Shalom, MalkyEL

[AVBunyan]

1. I was just wondering why you perceived that the sign of tongues was just for the Jews, when the Corinthians had the gifting also, and were not Jewish.

2. The verse in 1 Cor 13 is referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus.  To refer to the "Perfect" as the Bible, is stretching it.

3. The tongues at that point were for a sign, but also to enable them to preach the Gospel in a foreign tongue to unbelievers - that being the sign as referred to by Paul.
Shalom, MalkyEL

Thanks for our post - enjoyed reading it.  The fact that you put yourself on the same side of the fence as me puts you in rough company - might ruin your good reputation on this forum!!!

1. I don't see a problem with Gentiles having tongues because the fact they had them still showed they were a sign to the unbelieveing Jews.  When the Jews saw that the blessings were poured out on the Gentiles then it was supposed to provoke them to jealousy.  

2. Let's stir it up some more - I believe the "perfect man" in I Cor. 13 is the "perfect man" revealed to Paul in Ephesians:

Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Look at the context - the gifted men were not needed once the perfect man was revelaed - that perfect man being the saint who had all the Paul had for him as revealed to Hm by our Lord. Once the mystery was revealed to Paul then Paul revealed it to the faithful and they understood more of God's plan and purpsoe and would not need the gifted men.

So, I agree the perfect man is not the scriptures - comparing spiritual with spiritual the perfect man leads one to Eph. 4:13.

3. Not sure about that - just not sure about them being so they could preach the gospel to foreign nations - sounds good but just don't see a scriptural base for that.  Again, not against it just not sure - trying to be honest here - don't mind saying I don't have all the answers.


Nice chatting with you - may God bless  

[MalkyEL]

AV wrote:
 The fact that you put yourself on the same side of the fence as me puts you in rough company - might ruin your good reputation on this forum!!!
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rofl - what makes you think I have such a good forum reputation?   hahaha  

I really appreciate a good solid discussion so have at it  

AV wrote: 1) When the Jews saw that the blessings were poured out on the Gentiles then it was supposed to provoke them to jealousy.  

MalkyEL:  well, I am not so sure I agree with that.  The jealousy issue is salvation - not the giftings, imho.  It is an intriguing concept, so I looked at Paul's words in Romans.  

Please note:

1)  the emphasis in chapter 10 is on "hearing" the gospel - so the gospel message is what stirs them to jealousy.

2) Paul glorifys his ministry - which is the preaching of the gospel.

3) Who stirs people hearts to receive the message?  Man or God?

4) What is curious is that the word jealousy is not envy - but rather anger - both in Greek and in Hebrew.  Interesting that anger would bring the Jews to salvation.  Thoughts?

Rom 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yes, rather, "into all the earth their voice went out, and to the ends of the world their words." LXX-Psa. 18:5; MT-Psa. 19:4
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First, Moses says, "I will provoke you to jealousy by a non-nation, by an unwise nation I will anger you." Deut. 32:21
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says, "I was found by those not seeking Me; I became known to those not inquiring after Me." Isa. 65:1
21 But to Israel He says, "All the day I stretched out My hands to a disobeying and contradicting people." Isa. 65:2

Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel seeks, this it did not obtain, but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8 even as it has been written, "God gave to them a spirit of slumber, eyes not seeing and ears not hearing" until this day. Isa. 29:10; Deut. 29:4
9 And David said, "Let their table become for a snare and a trap, and for a stumbling block," and a repayment to them;
10 "let their eyes be darkened, not to see, and their back always bowing." LXX-68:23, 24; MT-Psa. 69:22, 23
11 I say, then, Did not they stumble that they fall? Let it not be! But by their slipping away came salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.
12 But if their slipping away is the riches of the world, and their default the riches of the nations, how much more their fullness?
13 For I speak to you, the nations, since I am an apostle of the nations, (I glorify my ministry),
14 if somehow I may provoke to jealousy my flesh, and may save some of them.
15 For if their casting away is the reconciliation of the world, what is the reception, except life from the dead?

The word jealousy used in Romans and in Deut.:

greek parazeloo  #3863
1) to provoke to
a) to provoke to jealously or rivalry
b) to provoke to anger

Hebrew qana  #7065
1) to envy, be jealous, be envious, be zealous
a) (Piel)
1) to be jealous of
2) to be envious of
3) to be zealous for
4) to excite to jealous anger
b) (Hiphil) to provoke to jealous anger, cause jealousy

[MalkyEL]

AV  wrote:
2)  Let's stir it up some more - I believe the "perfect man" in I Cor. 13 is the "perfect man" revealed to Paul in Ephesians:

Eph 4:11 And indeed He gave some to be apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers;
12 with a view to the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ,
13 until we all may come to the unity of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
14 so that we may no longer be infants, being blown and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the sleight of men, in craftiness to the deceit of error,
15 but speaking the truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, the Christ,
16 from whom all the body, having been fitted and compacted together through every assisting bond, according to the effectual working of one measure in each part, produces the growth of the body to the building up of itself in love.

1 Cor 13:8 ¶ Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be caused to cease; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be caused to cease.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease.
11 When I was an infant, I spoke as an infant, I thought as an infant, I reasoned as an infant. But when I became a man, I caused to cease the things of the infant.
12 For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also was fully known.

MalkyEL:  

Has the body of Messiah come into full unity of faith?
Do we have full knowledge of the Son of God?
Is the body of Messiah to full stature in the fullness of Him?
Are we no longer infants blown about by every wind of doctrine?
Have we overcome the sleight of men in the craftiness of deceit?
Has the perfect come?
Have the office of apostles, teachers, evangelists, pastors and prophets all ceased?
Has knowledge ceased [1 Cor 13:8]?

 

[MalkyEL]

AV wrote:
3. Not sure about that - just not sure about them being so they could preach the gospel to foreign nations - sounds good but just don't see a scriptural base for that.  Again, not against it just not sure - trying to be honest here - don't mind saying I don't have all the answers.
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I don't have all the answers either - but I sure do like exploring and enjoy the challenge of researching it out  

Acts 1:8 but you will receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you, ***** and you will be witnesses of Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the end of the earth*****.

Acts 2:And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with *****other tongues [languages]*****, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:5 ¶ And Jews were living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven.
6 But this sound occurring, the multitude came together and were confounded, because they each heard them speaking in his own dialect.
7 And all were amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not all these, those speaking, Galileans?
8 And how do we hear each in our own dialect in which we were born,
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and those living in Mesopotamia, both Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 both Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the regions of Libya over against Cyrene, and the temporarily residing Romans, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians; in our own languages we hear them speaking the great deeds of God?
12 And all were amazed and puzzled, saying to one another, What would this wish to be?

Acts 10:44 ¶ As Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those hearing the Word.
45 And the faithful of the circumcision were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the nations also.
46 For they heard them speaking in languages and magnifying God

Acts 4:5 ¶ And it happened on the morrow that the rulers and elders and scribes gathered into Jerusalem;
6 also Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the high priestly family.
7 And standing them in the midst, they were inquiring, By what sort of power, or by what sort of name did you do this?
8 *****Then being filled of the Holy Spirit*****, Peter said to them, Rulers of the people and elders of Israel,
9 if we are being examined today on a good work of an infirm man, by what this one has been healed,
10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in this name this one stands before you whole.
11 This One is the Stone counted worthless by you the builders, the One who has come to be into the Head of the Corner; Psa. 118:22
12 and there is salvation in no other One, for neither is there any other name under Heaven having been given among men by which we must be saved.
13 *****But beholding the boldness of Peter and John, and having perceived that they are untaught and uneducated men, they marveled. And they recognized them, that they were with Jesus.*****

Acts 4:31 And they having prayed, the place in which they were gathered was shaken, *****and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the Word of God with boldness.*****

Eph 6:17 Also, take "the helmet of salvation," and the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God; Isa. 59:17 LXX-Isa. 11:4; MT-Isa. 49:2; LXX and MT-Hos. 6:5
18 through all prayer and petition, praying at all times in the Spirit, and watching to this same thing with all perseverance and petition concerning all the saints.
19 ¶ ***** Pray also for me, that to me may be given speech in the opening of my mouth with boldness to make known the mystery of the gospel,*****
20 for which I am an ambassador in a chain, that in it I may speak boldly as it is right for me to speak.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you, the nations, since I am an apostle of the nations, (I glorify my ministry),

This is good - what are your thoughts?  

[infotechadviser]

In accordance with Paul's teaching in I Corinthians 12-14, the temporary need for spiritual gifts that existed at the beginning of this dispensation has been superceded by the completion of the written word of God. The "perfect" written word of God now having come, spiritual gifts have been "done away."
His Messenger

First, where does this perfect written word of God say "temporary" or that the spiritual gifts would be done away? Greater works than these shall ye do, because I go unto my Father. Might as well say Mark 16:15 had an expiration date. The apostles went all over the Eastern World, then a couple of generations later it fizzled.

God promised Daniel that they who "do know their God shall be strong and do exploits" in the end-times. There are the two prophets in Revelations. There is more need than ever today for the gifts of the Spirit. "Every good and every perfect gift cometh from above".

Paul wrapped up his lecture about toungues in I Cor 14:39: "Wherefore brethren covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak in toungues". This chapter obviously refers to the use of toungues as a payer language that is not understood by others. He says, okay, pray toungues, but let someone prophesy for edification, mostly for the lost.

[MalkyEL]

Paul wrapped up his lecture about toungues in I Cor 14:39: "Wherefore brethren covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak in toungues". This chapter obviously refers to the use of toungues as a payer language that is not understood by others. He says, okay, pray toungues, but let someone prophesy for edification, mostly for the lost.

I am curious.  Could you give me some scripture that says tongues is a prayer language?  Thanx.  

Shalom, MalkyEL