What Saves Us II

[nChrist]

BrotherJim,

I see that you locked the topic so that nobody could answer your last post. I can certainly understand why you would wish to do this, but it won't work.

Please see the following post as an answer. I don't think you can lock this one since I started it, so everyone else is welcome to post on the same subject.

[nChrist]

Hello BrotherJim,

I didn't check all of the Scripture you quoted, but you should have. They are all beautiful portions of Scripture, but they don't pertain to the subject thread, "What Saves Us."

I would conclude one of two things: (1) you don't have a clue what I John is about; (2) you twisted some Scriptures to fit your purpose. I really don't know which one, but not listing the chapter and verse adds more questions. In either case, quoting these Scriptures as pertaining to Salvation is false teaching that could easily deceive and confuse one who is not grounded in the Word. Your previous messages are consistent with this one.

The preface of I John and other portions make it clear that the hearers are believers. One does not have to read far before discovering the purpose and subject matter. The purpose and subject matter is not limited to the following:

1 - The walk of the believer and his or her testimony for Christ in everything they do.
2 - How to increase the quantity and quality of fellowship between the believer and Christ, and in that endeavor increase the quantity and quality of fellowship between the believer and other believers.
3 - Increasing the joy and happiness of a Christian by living a life that opens communion with Christ.
4 - Living a life that testifies and serves as an example to others the truth of Salvation.
5 - Pressing for the denial of sin and walking in the LIGHT, avoiding darkness.
6 - To be humbled by sin and confess it for forgiveness.
7 - Who the believer is to have fellowship with and the reason why many things should be avoided.
8 - To enjoy the fulness and riches of a walk in the spirit.

If the reader didn't discover the above facts, he or she would find what appears to be numerous contradictions in the same Epistle. See the following example:

1 John 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

As opposed to:

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

In conclusion, your teaching is false. You deny the Gospel of the Grace of God.

[nChrist]

BrotherJim,

The below is an exact quote of your last message on the subject of "What Saves Us" before you locked the thread. This might be handy for reference purposes.

by BrotherJim
Re:What Saves Us
« Reply #15 on: Today at 12:52:20pm »  

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"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

"He that says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him.

"But whoso keeps His Word, in him verily is the Love of God perfected: hereby we know that we are in Him.

"He that says he remains in Him ought also so to walk, even as He walked.

"Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the Word which you have heard from the beginning. . . .

"I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one. . . .

"If any man love the world, the Love of the Father is not in him. . . .

". . . he that does the will of God remains forever. . . .

"Let that [Love and its commandment] therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

"And this is the promise that He has promised us, even eternal Life. . . .

"And now, little children, remain in Him; that, when He will appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. . . .

"Whosoever remains in Him does not sin: whosoever sins has not seen Him, neither known Him.

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, . . .

". . . whosoever does not do righteousness is not of God, neither he that does not Love his brother. . . .

"For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should Love one another. . . .

"My little children, let us not Love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in Truth. . . .

"And he that keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him.

"We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God does not hear us. Hereby we know the Spirit of Truth, and the spirit of error.

"Beloved, let us Love one another: for Love is of God; and everyone that Loves is born of God, and knows God.

"He that does not Love does not know God; for God is Love. . . .

". . . God is Love; and he that abides in Love remains in God, and God in him.

"Herein is our Love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world. . . .

". . . and everyone that Loves Him that [gave new birth to him] also Loves [them] who are begotten of Him.

"By this we know that we Love the children of God, when we Love God, and keep His commandments.

"For this is the Love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. . . .

"I rejoiced greatly that I found my children walking in Truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

"And now I beseech you . . . not as though I wrote a new commandment unto you, but that which we have heard from the beginning, that we Love one another.

"And this is Love, that we walk after His commandments. This is the commandment, that, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. . . .

"Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things which we have gained, but that we receive a full reward."

The Epistles of John

[Whitehorse]

As odd as it may seem, I wonder if this could be a debate for the same things-while grace saves us, if it really is grace, it is evidenced by works. So we cannot be saved by anything but grace, but if there are no works, if we do not uphold the law, it is not really grace and we are therefore not saved. But of course I didn't do any searches on anyone's posts, so I'm just going by what I see here.  

[nChrist]

As odd as it may seem, I wonder if this could be a debate for the same things-while grace saves us, if it really is grace, it is evidenced by works. So we cannot be saved by anything but grace, but if there are no works, if we do not uphold the law, it is not really grace and we are therefore not saved. But of course I didn't do any searches on anyone's posts, so I'm just going by what I see here.  

Oklahoma Howdy to Whitehorse,

You don't have to do much of a search to see the posts of the discussion. BrotherJim made a few posts under "What Saves Us", locked the thread, and left.

Regarding debate, I didn't see one. I believe in the Gospel of God's Grace, plain and simple. The definition of Grace in this context is also quite simple, although one could easily write a book on God's Grace. "Grace" is undeserved, unearned, and is a GIFT. The beginning and eternity of Salvation is GRACE. The payment for Salvation is the precious BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST, OUR SAVIOUR.

Good works and obedience of God are from the grateful heart of a believer. They are also part of the joy of the believer that causes greater fellowship with our Lord and Saviour. Good works and obedience do NOT earn or maintain Salvation. If good works and obedience earned or maintained Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the cross was in vain.

I'm thinking about one event that clearly explains Salvation by faith and HIS GRACE. The man I am thinking about lead a horrible life of sin and didn't have even one good work. He was the thief hanging on a cross next to Jesus.

I would quote the beautiful portions of Scripture in I John to any Christian who wishes to experience the real joy and fullness of fellowship with our Lord and Saviour. All of the Glory goes to God for all Christians who experience this fullness. For those who do, I can assure you they don't brag or boast about their good works and obedience. The fullness is God's Grace, not self.

In Christ.

[Whitehorse]

Hi, BEP. I'm just wondering if you see a difference between what saves and what is required for salvation.

[nChrist]

Hi, BEP. I'm just wondering if you see a difference between what saves and what is required for salvation.

Oklahoma Howdy to Whitehorse,

You'll have to be a little bit more specific. I'm not sure what you are thinking about, but God's Grace and faith are the beginning and eternity of Salvation. God's Grace is manifested in HIS GIFT, HIS LOVE, the precious BLOOD OF JESUS ON THE CROSS. What saves becomes Salvation if I have faith and believe in it, so they appear to be one and the same.

"I am saved" and "I have Salvation" are the same statement said two different ways. The requirements and cause are both the same. I would have a different answer if you asked what leads to greater joy and fullness of fellowship with our Lord and Saviour.

In Christ.

[Whitehorse]

Well, it's the blood that saves, but there are real conversions and false ones. It's really important to distinguish between the two, which is why the word tells us to test ourselves and see if we are in the faith. So the blood is what saves. Grace alone. Through faith alone.

But now there is the question: which is true salvation, and which is not? The Bible stresses in several places that we are to examine ourselves.

Works are a manifestation of the kind of faith that is real. Faith without works is dead. This verse cannot be ignored. If we do not have works, we do not have the *blood* that alone can save. You're absolutely right-it's an important distinction to make: Works cannot save. The blood does. But the blood is always accompanied by works.

Take the parable of the wedding feast. A man shows up without wedding clothes, and he is lost. Did he believe? Sure, he was at the feast. But he did not have the necessary sanctification, so he did not have the blood that alone saves. We have the parable of the talents. A man knows who Christ is but does not use his talents for God. He too is lost. We have numerous areas in scripture where we are told that if we are in Christ, we will do as Christ does. And yet there are so many in the world who do nothing like what Jesus does, have no interest, who live in every kind of sin imaginable, yet think the blood of Christ will cover it. What a light view of Jesus's unimaginable suffering! Before the blood of Christ can cover their sins, they have to be covered by that blood. And if they are truly in Him, there are numerous places where the word says we will obey.

So do our works save? NO.
Are they necessary for salvation? YES.
Then how on earth can they be necessary, if they do not save? Because works always come with the blood as a stamp of legitimacy. If the works aren't there, neither is the blood that alone can save.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? James 2:14 KJV

So this verse makes it very clear that faith without works is no faith at all-it is counterfeit.

Jesus is Savior. He is also Lord. Those two features are inseparable. We cannot separate them at all, for He does not change. If we get the Savior, we likewise get the Lord. If His Lordship is rejected, then the Savior goes, too. So if we receive his salvation, we also submit to His rulership. "He who loves Me obeys my commandments."

Many blessings to you.  

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Whitehorse,

I will have to respectfully disagree with you. I believe strongly that good works are necessary for a Christians testimony in life, an example for others, a reasonable service to our Lord and Saviour, fullness of fellowship, quality of fellowship, and the real joy of a walk in the Spirit.

I would also strongly agree that everything above represents exhortations to God's children. Some folks might call these exhortations Christian productivity. However, it really doesn't matter what you call them, as they are good works. A Christian's rewards will certainly be measured by his or her good works, but Salvation won't be judged by good works. Man may judge Salvation by good works, but God doesn't. To say that God does would be to say that we have a Gospel of Works instead of a Gospel of God's Grace.

How would men have judged the Salvation of the thief hanging next to Jesus on a cross? It matters nothing since we know how he was judged by God. I immediately think of three companion topics to Salvation:  justification, sanctification, and redemption. I will get to those subjects in latter posts. I only have the energy and time to post a starter on good works. However, you should easily note that good works ARE NOT part of the companion topics either. I'll boil it down simple for now and quote a few Scriptures.

Matthew 16:27  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 3:26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 3:27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Romans 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic with the following question, rather to stimulate thoughts about who maintains Salvation and how is it done. If Salvation is maintained by good works, what is the frequency requirement (i.e. by the hour, day, month, year, etc.). I would be the first to plead with Christians to do good works during every waking moment, but I would NOT tell them their Salvation required that. I would tell them that many beautiful portions of Scripture describe how a Christian SHOULD walk for fullness of joy and fellowship with our Lord and Saviour.

The same comparisons could be made with how many sins are allowed by a Christian before he or she loses Salvation. Some claim to be holy, without sin, perfect, and not concerned with this question. I can tell you for positive that I am not one of those folks. I have need of my Lord and Saviour to pray, confess my sins, and ask for forgiveness.

I have 100% assurance of Salvation, and that is because of my FAITH IN JESUS, not in myself. I would also state an opinion that 100% assurance of Salvation leads to greater joy and greater motivation to do good works and LIVE IN THE SPIRIT.

In Christ.

[Brother Love]

A Christian's rewards will certainly be measured by his or her good works, but Salvation won't be judged by good works.

AMEN!!!!!

Brother Love

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Love,

Thanks!, I needed that Amen. I haven't been able to sleep tonight, so maybe that Amen will be much better than counting sheep.  

In Christ,

Tom

[Whitehorse]

BEP, I really appreciate the fact that even when we disagree, you're respectful. That's very noble.

In regards to works, there's still the question of what to do with the James verse, the wedding parable, the parable of the talents... The works situation is really an easy thing to fix; the solution isn't to develop an unhealthy fear of the the Lord, but to work out our salvation with fear and trembling-this is the healthy kind of fear, and then simply do the works. As it is written: Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose. Philippians 2:12-13

When God first opened my eyes to this, it scared me, to be honest with you, but I'm ever so glad He did because it's a very important doctrine that has the power of life and death. As it is written: Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him glory! For the wedding Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Notice the image of wedding clothes here, too: But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. "Friend," He asked, "how did you get in here without wedding clothes?" The man was speechless. Matthew 22:11-12

That's why it's so important to have the right kind of fear. I know I'm working hard on that. The wrong kind drives us away from God, but the right kind makes us obey Him. Judas had the wrong kind when he committed suicide. Peter also fell in a most terrible way, but he had a right kind of fear. He picked himself up and obeyed the Lord, knowing God didn't have to save him. Presumption is when we take it for granted we're saved, never examining ourselves as scripture tells us to, and just assume God is going to save us. It's like that well-meaning question people asked me when I was in school: "If God asked you right now, why should I let you into My heaven, what would you say?" We were taught to say, "You have to because Jesus died on the cross and my sins have been paid for."

The correct answer, God has shown me, is this: "You don't have to save anyone at all." As it is written: For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."Romans 9:15

And that's why it's so important to fear God in the healthy way. Because we know from this that it is God who gives us the desire to will and to work according to His purpose! It bears repeating: Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose. Philippians 2:12-13

I always try very hard to hang onto that last part in bold, because look at this: Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21

Or this reference to the necessity of using our salvation to work the fields: Then He told this parable: A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, "For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?" "Sir," the man replied, "leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine. If not, then cut it down."

Paul said, No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. I Corinthians 9:27. And this was the great apostle Paul; I know I for one am not better than the apostle Paul. If a guy who endured beatings, shipwrecks, imprisonment, poverty, persecution, etc. still felt this degree of discipline was necessary to not be disqualified for the prize, then my ears perk up when he says that. Certainly I intend to do likewise.

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

It looks like 17 or more messages in this thread have completely disappeared. I, for one, do not have copies of all of the messages I posted. I have a few copies that I used e-Sword to make, but the rest are gone.

Just off the top of my head, there are messages missing from Whitehorse, Paul2, Missyann250, Brotherjim, Brotherlove, me, and maybe others. It's a shame, because I think the discussion was going very well.

In Christ.
Tom

[Whitehorse]

Yeah, that is odd. I thought it was going very well, too, and a really important issue to work out. Maybe we should ask what happened.  

[nChrist]

Yeah, that is odd. I thought it was going very well, too, and a really important issue to work out. Maybe we should ask what happened.  

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Whitehorse,

There is one post from Admin. under the problems and bug reports portion of the system that may explain this. He said there was a time difference between getting the new system on line and the old system off line. He also said there was a time that some users were accessing the new system while other users were accessing the old system. He did state that some messages would be lost.

I have some copies of messages I posted, but some of them might not make much sense without the messages of the other people in the discussion. I will probably repost a few messages that make any sense without the other messages. I'm also trying to reconstruct some messages that may get the discussion going again.

I got a benefit out of the missing messages, as I got to read and study some additional portions of Scripture that shed light on what is and what is NOT "Saving Faith". I think the discussion boils down to this issue, at least in my mind. I hope to post some messages later this evening if my old computer keeps running.

In Christ,
Tom