Pilgrim-

I think I see where we differ in our views.  You believe that once we accept Christ we gain our salavation and it is final, nothing can change that.  You say that words like 'forever' and 'eternal' mean just as they are in effect the second you accept Christ.  I see those as having their final effect when we stand before him, the are the promise of things to come.  There eternal is eternal, and forever is forever.  Because if they were in effect the moment we asked Christ into our hearts, then why would Jesus tell us to remain in him?  With your view, I can not see John 15:1-12 as being truth.  With your view, please explain the use of the words 'if', 'in me', and 'remain'.  Also consider Ezekiel 33: 14-20, please give me your view on that scripture as well.  

I look forward to hearing from you.  God bless.

      Perhaps you have lived a clean life. Not all of us have.

       Picture someone who was a great sinner before accepting Christ. Consider the person has habits and addictions. Picture someone who has smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day for 25 years. Someone who knows all about the dangers of smoking but is so addicted they just can't stop. Say they accept Jesus, but continue to smoke even though they know it is harmful and wrong. Could they even become a believer if they smoke? How long do they have before they must quit before their Salvation is lost, for they know what their doing is wrong but haven't been able to quit yet?

    Thats just one example. Before repentance their must be belief. Repentance is impossible without the Holy Spirit leading one to repent.

    I lived a sinful life. I'm not perfect. I'm not proud of my sins but I still sin and cofess it but I'm still a willful sinner at times. But I'm being really honest about it. I don't know if I've ever been sin free in my life. Theres always something I'm not doing right, for the good we ought to do and don't is sin as I see it.

    To me you seem like some super Christian if you can pass the standard you have set. You must never ever lie because that would be willfully sinning. You might be the first person I've evr met that never willfully sins. You can't have it both ways, Grace and Works, its either perfect Grace or perfect works. I'd never make it if works are involved in any way. I'm a sinner. Woe to me wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? Jesus Christ will.

                                                           Paul2

I have never lived a clean life, nor have I ever claimed to have.  I never claimed to be a super Christian, but if that's all that you got out of what I said, then I'm sorry that you misunderstand.  But I will try this again.......

We (meaning you and I and everyone on this earth), have sinned, and always will sin as long as we live on this earth (this means even AFTER we accept Christ).  We are imperfect, we know that and God knows that.  Now, the difference I'm making is between someone who's heart remains with God as the full authority and wants to do his will, and someone who's heart becomes corrupt at some point and God is no longer the full authority and maybe only wants to do partly God's will.

Now using your own example, hopefully I can make this more clear.  So we have someone who smokes a lot before they accept Christ.  After they accept Christ, they still continue to smoke.  So far this fits into both definitions I stated above.  Now lets look into it deeper, you said the person gets convicted by the Holy Spirit that he should quit because it's bad for him.  Now please read this carefully because this is where it has been missed the last two tries.  If the person's heart and attitude remain that Jesus is the authority and the truth, but fails at his attempts to stop smoking, God's grace will cover him.  Why, because God knows he wants to do the right thing, but also understands that we are human and imperfect.  Judging from that, I would assume this person has tried to quit smoking, or cut back, or make some sort of effort to quit.  The person wasn't perfect before he had Christ in his life, and he still isn't perfect after, but was desiring and willing to do God's will.  Now, if the person becomes knowledgable that it is wrong, gets convicted, yet decides that he isn't going to listen to God, and justifies it, what place does that person have in the kingdom of God?  They are saying that they are only going to obey God where ever they please, therefore Jesus is NOT the full authority in their life.  Now this is someone who knows what they are doing, and continues to do so deliberatly.  There is a problem that runs deep within this person that has no place in God's kingdom.  If a person is willing to give up smoking and tries even though he fails, that willing spirit is what God wants.  I believe that person eventually will quit because the person is willing, and God will deliver him.  But if the person is not willing, God will not force him.  As the scripture you so stated, who will deliver me from these things?  Thanks be to Jesus.

Do you see a difference between the two examples?  Because if a person says no to God in one area, I'm sure there will be other areas that will follow.  Their heart is not pure, their attitude is not right, they are not humble before God.  

Again, please let me know if the difference is not clear.  I hope you don't think that I believe you lose your salvation at the drop of a hat.  I believe the scriptures teach that the lost of salvation can happen.  Consider Ezekiel 33:12-20, and tell me what you think that passage is saying.

Thank you again for your response.

Paul 2-

I agree that we sin even after we accept Christ, I included that in what I said.  In fact, I repeated it.  But I will say it again, we will still slip up, we'll stumble in our sin even after we've received the truth.  While we are still in this tent, we will always have sin in our life.  Our goal should be to aim for perfection (2 Cor 13:11), but realistically knowing we'll never obtain it.

Why would you be scared from my view?  If your attitude and your love are always fixed on Jesus being the supreme authority in your life (keeping in mind that we are not perfect as I said above), what do you have to fear?  However, as in the Hebrew scriptures I stated, it's when we deliberatly continue to sin is when we get into trouble.  In doing so, Jesus is no longer is the authority in your life, you've chosen to stray from his teachings and go your own way.  He is patient, and you're asking me at what point does his patience run out as it has so many times in the Bible.  I will tell you, I don't know.  

So lets recap very quickly.  We still sin after we accept Christ, that's a fact.  God knows our hearts and sees that we're not perfect, but that our heart is set on doing the right thing.  If we continue to deliberatly sin, again God knows our heart and if it's not right, we have the expectation of judgement and known as an enemy of God.

When you become a Christian it's no easy ride.  Let me give this to you to consider:
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
    what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (1 Pet 4:18)
Why would it be hard for the righteous to be saved if 'everything' is so easily under the blood of Christ.  Stop here for a moment and think about that.  If you dileberatly sin, you are missing the whole purpose of Christ dying on the cross.  You are trampling underfoot what is holy.  Please re-read the scriptures in Hebrews and the others I listed here and let me know what you think.

I thank you for asking me to clarify, and I hope I have.  Let me know if you have any more questions.

Now Petro, the scripture you were referring to about it being impossible to be brought back to repentance.  That is in Hebrews 6, and let me know if you disagree.  Again, I truly value your thoughts.

Here we have a person who is considered a believer, judging by the description.  Then they fall away, so I look at what happened.  Again like in my previous reply (part 1 if you will <laugh>), what I see here is there was a change in their attitude, and for whatever reason they have chosen to reject God in some manner.  What that manner is it does not say in detail, but falling away I see as a rejection to the knowledge and experience they had in Christ.  In doing so, they are saying that Jesus is not good enough, and to their loss they no longer have the blood of Christ to cover them.  They had to harden their heart to the truth they once knew, thus it would seem impossible for them to be brought back to repentance.  I say 'it would seem' because I do not take that literally.  I refuse to believe God wouldn't ever forgive someone, or accept someone's repentance.  After all, that is what God is, forgivness, so to take that scripture literally would be God rejecting himself.  Therefore it being impossible to be brought back to repentance is not from God's view, but the view of the sinner to change their ways.

Another example of the point I'm trying to make is a little further down in Hebrews 10:26-31.  Again we see someone who is 'deliberatly' sinning, again there's a change in their attitude towards God that must take place in order for that to happen.  And if they cast aside the blood of Jesus, the holy santification that once saved him, what other sacrifice is there that can bring him back into fellowship with God?  God said that no one comes to him except through Jesus.  So if a believer decides to sin deliberatly they nullify the blood that covers him, and there is nothing left that can save him.  So what awaits such a person?  A fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.  Notice how now the person has become an 'enemy' of God.

Please let me know what you think about this.  Please give it some thought and prayer.  I look forward to hearing from you.

AW, Petro, and Crusader, first of all thank you for responding, I appreciate your thoughts and I look forward to discussing this in further detail.  

Again I will say that I agree with Eternal Security, but to a point.  We can all agree that if we ask Jesus to become our Lord AND Savior; if we believe by faith that he died for our sins and rose from the dead in conquer of death, and we become new creatures in Christ and now live a new life according to his good and perfect will, then there will be nothing that can pluck us from his hand.

An interesting thing about the Lord and Savior, is that what I hear a lot talked about today is the Savior part.  I hear about his dying on the cross, his blood shed to cover our sins, thus reconciling us unto the Father and having redemption in Christ Jesus.  Every bit I believe with my whole heart.  However, beyond believing in him and accepting what he did on the cross, there is also now a responsibility we have as 'believers', which is to love him and love others (which could only include obedience).  When we chose God of our free will, it is no longer our will but his will we chose to set as the authority in our lives.  

If we therefore, chose to continue in this love and obedience, and continue to have fellowship with God and walk in his ways, we will never thirst, and we will have all that God has to give us because we never leave that fellowship.  That's not to say we still won't slip here and there, or do something we didn't know was wrong as we grow in knowledge.  But if the attitude of our hearts remains such that Jesus is the supreme authority in our life, that he is the way, the truth, and the life, what do we have to fear?

Where we differ in thought is you say you can't walk away and lose what you've gained.  I've heard it said that even if you do chose to walk away, you're still saved but just won't have as many rewards in heaven.  In other words, it's okay to sin and reject Jesus' teachings, and do what you want you just won't be rewarded as much.  Now that is an extreme view, but I've heard that arguement.  To be honest, that disturbs me, cause that is taking everything that Jesus is, taught, stood for, and trampling it underfoot.  What I'm pointing out here is the attitude of the heart.  Remember before I said if you slip here and there because we are imperfect but your attitude remains good and pure, then you will not lose your salvation.  But what I am also saying is on the flip side of that, if someone accepts Jesus, walks in his ways and loves God but then because we are human and sin creeps in and we begin to believe a lie, the attitude of our heart changes and we reject a teaching(s) of Jesus, then we break our fellowship with him.  And if we justify a sin or sins, and continue to do so out of our own selfishness knowing what Jesus says about it, you are not a child of God.  Jesus is no longer the full authority of your life, and you are purposely going against his will.  Then you have forsaken your true love, and the bond is broken.  Not by God's doing, but by our own.

Judging by the name of the thread, I would agree.  There is eternal security for those who believe by faith in Jesus, what he did for us on the cross, and continue to do so throughout the rest of his life here on earth.

But what about someone who accepts this and is a believer, but then for some reason or another decides to reject one or more of his teachings, or altogther.  Is that person still 'saved'?

Hold on, before I continue I want to clarify my position on this question.  Hopefully it'll help others understand where I'm coming from.

I believe in Eternal Security, up to a point.  I believe the scriptures throughout teach that if an unsaved person repents and asks God's forgiveness and mercy, and asks God to be their Lord and Savior, then at that moment that person is saved.  Now if that person continues to follow God, who continues to take up their cross daily and follow him, who remains in him, then yes there is nothing that can seperate him from God.  That is not to say that the person will never sin again, or that they might not have all the right convictions right away.  That is where God's grace comes in to cover the sins because God knows that person's heart and knows the person wants to do God's will but isn't perfect.

But if a person asks God to come into their life, walks with God, tastes the heavenly gifts, yet somewhere along the line decides they are purposly and willingly not going to follow God in a specific area in their lives that is against God's will, or decide to not follow God at all or have a change in attitude, they will have no place in the kingdom of God (as presented in Ezekiel 33).

One thing I keep in mind when I'm reading the scriptures, is that as the saying goes 'to every action there is a reaction'.  In other words, there are two sides to things.  And a very, very important thing to look for is words like 'if', and 'must'.  When you look at a scripture like John 15, from verse 1-11 the word 'if' is used four times.  Statements like, 'If a man remains in me and I in him', 'If anyone does not remain in me...', If you remain in me and my words remain in you', 'If you obey my commands'.  You have to ask yourself, well what if you don't remain in him?  What if you don't obey his commands?  Some of those he addresses within the same verses.  Just simply using the word 'if' indicates that there is two possibilities, either you do remain in him, or you don't.  Either you obey him or you don't.  He is very clear in this section in the answer to those questions.  Verse 4 is God's promise to us, that if we remain in him he will remain in us, but the decision is ours.  In order to remain in something, you have to be a part of it to begin with.  Yet he does tell us what our fate is should we chose to become apart from him in verses 2 and 6.

Please re-read Ezekiel 33, and John 15 with the thought in mind if there are two possibilities being presented, and is there a choice involved.  Please let me know what you think.

Now Crusader, can you unfold your statement a little?  And do you have any thoughts on the scriptures I've presented?  I'm interested in hearing what you have to say.  

More to follow....

God bless
 

[if]

I have read through all 10 pages, and although there has been many good points and many bad points, I must say I am dissappointed at the personal attacks and the attacks on others denomination, (not so much in the later pages).  So please, lets keep this a discussion where we are trying to understand the other person's view, and do so in love.
Amen?

I find this topic very fascinating, and it's always interesting to learn what others believe.  So here are my two cents.

The question of whether or not we could lose our salvation depends greatly upon how we view God.  We could start a whole new thread on that, but for the sake of time I'll start by asking a couple questions.

1.  Does God lie?
(I think we all agree he doesn't)
2.  Is a person God considers righteous saved?
(Again, I think we can all agree they are)
3.  Is a person God considers wicked saved?
(Again, I think we can all agree they're not)

Then consider for a moment Ezekiel 33:12-20
"Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, `The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. 14 And if I say to the wicked man, `You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right-- 15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. 16 None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.

    EZE 33:17 "Yet your countrymen say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' But it is their way that is not just. 18 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. 19 And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so. 20 Yet, O house of Israel, you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' But I will judge each of you according to his own ways."

Okay, so lets break that down and see if we come up with the same conclusion.
v12- "Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, `The righteousness (faith, belief, works, all those combined) of the righteous man (saved man) will not save him (save him from what?  Spiritual death) when he disobeys (this meaning knowingly and willingly, with aforethought), and the wickedness (sins) of the wicked man (not saved) will not cause him to fall (be cast into eternal damnation) when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live (*) because of his former righteousness (faith, belief, works he had/did when he was saved).'
*- I've had a couple people actually try to argue that the word 'live' didn't mean eternal life.  But if that were so, why don't we see men and women from 2000 or more years ago still alive today and walking around?  According to that definition if you were rightetous you'd never physically die???  Obviously the term 'live' means eternal life with God, and death meaning eternal seperation from God.  We will see this makes more sense in the verses to follow.  So what can we conclude from the last part of it, if a saved person decides to turn from his righteous ways, he won't be able to have eternal life with God.
v.13-  If I (God) tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but (very important word) then he (indicating a choice made of his own free will) trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die (eternal death, not physical) for the evil he has done.
Here we see someone who God considers righteous and it is God saying to this person that he will surely be with him in paradise (remembering that God doesn't lie, if he says it's going to be so then it will), BUT then the person decides to turn away from God and make it his own righteousness and not one that came from God as a result of his obedience, faith, belief, etc.  It sounds as if this person in their own eyes became their own god, and no longer saw God as their Lord and Savior.
v14-16- And if I say to the wicked man, `You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right-- if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die.None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.
Here we see the opposite happening.  Here an unsaved person turns from his ways and does what is right, thus saves himself from eternal death.
v17-Yet your countrymen say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' But it is their way that is not just.
Here is a view many people take that can't accept God being someone who allows people to fall away.  The Lord's way is not taking salvation away and being unjust, it is 'their' way that is not right and suffers the consequences.  I'll repeat that, it's not God taking away anything, his way is not unjust!
v18- If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.
Repeating what he said earlier.  Back in the biblical days when something was repeated, for example like Jesus saying 'Verily, verily', it basically meant pay attention this is important.
v19- And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so.
Again, the second point is repeated.
v20- Yet, O house of Israel, you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' But I will judge each of you according to his own ways."
Repeated again that it's not God's choice, but ours.

Of this, I see one strong point made very clear.  No matter what position you're in (saved or unsaved), you can turn from it.  It's easy for people to accept the fact that unsaved people can turn and receive life (of their own free will).  Yet they do not think a saved person can exercise the same free will and choose to turn from God.  At what point do we lose our free will?  If we have a free will to choose God, but then lose our free will once we do, that means we become like puppets.  We can no longer make decisions, and I have two problems with that.  1.) Is that what God wants, a bunch of puppets doing his will, or living beings with a choice and choosing to love him and follow him?  Which would be more rewarding to him?  2.) If we lose our ability to choose, then that means God makes the decisions for us, and I don't see God (since we sin everyday) being the puppiteer when we sin.

There are extremist that say 'once saved always saved, therefore it doesn't matter what I do because I asked Jesus into my heart.'  I am NOT saying anyone on this thread shares in this same line of thinking, because in earlier comments there's been talk about doing works that grow and perfect our faith after we've received the free gift.  So we don't need to go into that.

I ran out of time, but I will continue this later.  Please consider what I've wrote, I have more to elaborate on so please if you have questions, feel free to ask.

God bless!
 

I know how it is about churches i usually dont go to one by myself unless i know someone there that im good friends with. My hubby doesnt like going to churches he likes going to bible studies. Glad you joined our group.

I don't find it hard to attend a new church, after all we're all supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ and share that common ground.  That and we're pretty sociable when it comes to meeting new people.  But what I do find difficult is finding a church that does not preach what I call "half truths".  What I mean by that is so far most of the churches I've been to teach mostly on Grace, Mercy, and Love.  And I absolutely agree with those and will preach those til' I'm blue in the face.  However, that's only half of who and what God is.  They don't talk about his wrath, his judgement, importance of obedience to his word.  Jesus is the one who talks about Hell more then anyone in the bible combined.  So I'd think it be important to warn people of the consequences of sin, and why repentance is needed and what that is.  I know there are churches out there full of the Holy Spirit, and teach all of God's word.  I just have to find them.

How come your hubby doesn't attend church?

LOL!!  I love your Avatar Allinall, that cracks me up.  And it totally fits the people here in Seattle.  If they're not swimming in the rain, they're swimming in their coffee.

I think asking questions is how we grow, because it causes us to expand our understanding of things.  I don't mean asking questions like the Pharisees asked Jesus in attempts to trap him, but rather like Nicodemus did in effort to understand exactly what Jesus was trying to say.  Some people don't like being challenged, and that's where I get the waves.  I've had a lot of remarks said to me like, "You're taking that out of context." "That's your interpretation."  "That verse doesn't apply to me."  "I don't need to read the Bible, I have the love of God in my heart."  Trouble is not what I look for, but it's what I get sometimes.  And I've certainly been wrong in a lot of discussions, but that's also how we mature and grow.  Anyone agree/disagree?

"I do tend to cause waves sometimes, but that's just because I tend to ask questions and challenge people to think."
 You dont happen to be a preachers kid do ya?  Welcome to the forums plenty of views here. So 'wave' away hehe

LOL!  No I'm not a preachers kid, directly anyway.  I'll explain.  When I came to know Christ and attend church, I got involved in a group of youths from all different churches that gathered once a week.  I became good friends with a guy there, and his dad used to pastor a church.  He also taught in (and helped start) one of the Bible colleges here in Seattle.  He has since retired from those positions, but never felt his duties were over.  So he started a Bible study once a week, and I've attended those studies for most of my Christian life (which has been 7 years).  He teaches on all the subjects my pastor at my church wants to avoid bringing up or talking about.  So over the years I've received my fellowship, encouragement, and work in the body of Christ at my church, but I've received my teaching from the Bible study.  So I'm not a preachers kid per say, but I've become like a son to him because he along with other Godly men have brought me up in my Christianity.  I'm sure that was more then what you were asking for....

Hello everyone,

I'm from Seattle, and yes it's wet here, no I don't own an umbrella, and yes I can see three Starbucks from any street corner I'm at.  

Now that we've got that out of the way, I'm 28, my wife is 22, and we have a little girl who is turning 1 this week.  She's walking around really good so you can imagine our workload just tripled.  

We are currently looking for a church in our area, we moved and had to leave our home church which was very difficult.  Finding a church is the hardest thing to do, especially since I've had a lot of dissappointments in this process.  I will be honest with you all, I do tend to cause waves sometimes, but that's just because I tend to ask questions and challenge people to think.  I do so in an attempt to learn and understand people and their beliefs.  I'm looking forward to talking to you.  God bless.