DISCUSSION FORUMS
MAIN MENU
Home
Help
Advanced Search
Recent Posts
Site Statistics
Who's Online
Forum Rules
Bible Resources
• Bible Study Aids
• Bible Devotionals
• Audio Sermons
Community
• ChristiansUnite Blogs
• Christian Forums
• Facebook Apps
Web Search
• Christian Family Sites
• Top Christian Sites
• Christian RSS Feeds
Family Life
• Christian Finance
• ChristiansUnite KIDS
Shop
• Christian Magazines
• Christian Book Store
Read
• Christian News
• Christian Columns
• Christian Song Lyrics
• Christian Mailing Lists
Connect
• Christian Singles
• Christian Classifieds
Graphics
• Free Christian Clipart
• Christian Wallpaper
Fun Stuff
• Clean Christian Jokes
• Bible Trivia Quiz
• Online Video Games
• Bible Crosswords
Webmasters
• Christian Guestbooks
• Banner Exchange
• Dynamic Content

Subscribe to our Free Newsletter.
Enter your email address:

ChristiansUnite
Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 14, 2024, 08:49:58 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
286825 Posts in 27568 Topics by 3790 Members
Latest Member: Goodwin
* Home Help Search Login Register
  Show Posts
Pages: [1]
1  Theology / General Theology / Analogy of a Matrix relevant to Foreknowledge? on: October 06, 2007, 12:16:27 PM
Analogy of a Matrix relevant to Foreknowledge?

KJV Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

KJV Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.


A computer generated Matrix (like in the Movie having the same name) is uncannily analogous to God’s power granting coherence to the microscopic structure of all things in spacetime.

The analogy is not tautological, merely explaining data it was designed to explain. On the contrary, it contains fundamental truth relevant to other theological considerations.

Like creation “ex nihilio,” or how a 156 billion light year large (or greater) universe, could come to be in 1 day. As soon as God thought it, from nothing it was, in no time at all. Just like a thought.

KJV 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

“Shall melt” is LUOO (3089), the very atomic structure will be “loosed.” It will no longer have coherence, consist.

God simply has “another thought” and the microscopic structure of all things is changed.

Or the problem of evil. God’s power gives form to microscopic structure of all things, but it does not follow God is the author of evil, as the movie illustrates, actors in the movie operate independently, analogous to permissive will.

Or Omnipresence. How can a Holy God be omnipresent where there is evil? A computer-generated matrix illustrates that nicely, the substance of the computer doesn’t occupy the same space as the “substance” of the Matrix, yet it is omnipresent in it.

As there is only One God, the notion of “parallel universes” is impossible.

Spacetime Matrix achieves coherent form by God’s power, therefore past and future don’t exist, and so time travel is impossible.

Only the present exists because God allows it to be actual.

KJV Romans 4:17 …God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

This is possibly relevant to God’s foreknowing in Rom 8:29.

An aspect of God’s foreknowledge not hitherto considered.

God is Omniscient because He knows Himself perfectly, and He fully knows everything He made, perfectly. He knows what they can do under any and all circumstances, including also what they will do in the Matrix He generates.

But that is cognitive.

As God is eternal, He knows what the state of the matrix will be, at any time frame He chooses.  If I may describe this  according to our finite modes of thought, His essence “mirrors” and He can see it like a movie.

When He watches an event God can say “now I know” (Gen 22:12; etc), not because He didn’t before, but because now His knowing was achieved via vision, and was not cognitive only. To illustrate, one may fully know what jumping off a building will be like, but doing it adds a dimension that will really make one “know it.”

If God foreknows via vision, if I may describe this according to our finite modes of thought, He accesses the specific point in His Eternal essence that is generating the desired time frame in space, and so “foreseeing” what will actually be.

But if God is foreknowing cognitively, then He may be foreknowing contingencies that never achieve actual existence. For example:

Matthew 11:21-24  Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.  22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.  23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.  24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

God knew these would have repented if they were blessed with the same revelation that the generation Jesus had. But it never happened in history therefore God was not foreknowing what actually would be.

Suppose God foreknew them He did predestinate, similarly, that is, in such way that it justified their being conformed to the image of His Son, but not as they actually are, lest any should boast.

This was not for His benefit as He already cognitively knows all, and can see all “frames” of space time, singularly or collectively, anytime He wants.  No, it was for OUR benefit, that we can objectively know His decree they be conformed to the image of God the Eternal Son, was just and right:

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Perhaps foreknowing them where their free will was truly free, and documenting what they did, for us, so that we would know it was just and right they be conformed.

It then was an act of kindness we not see what those who were not conformed, were capable of. In other words, watch what they did when in the same situation as their father the devil, when he rebelled against God, without cause.

The juxtaposition of foreknowledge and predestination in Romans 8:29 naturally imply the former caused the latter. This foreknowledge defined those who are predestined to be conformed, for some reason.

As this foreknowing concerns only those already elected, the reason for the foreknowledge must lie elsewhere.

As God knows all things, it cannot be these are conformed because of something He learned about them.

The only possibility remaining is that his foreknowing was for OUR benefit, that we might know God's decree these be conformed, was just and right.

Isaiah 40:4-5   4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:  5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Every argument against God will fall, be leveled or straightened, by the truth from the lips of whom we have to do.  Amen, Come LORD Jesus!
2  Theology / Apologetics / Calvin missed this aspect of Foreknowledge on: September 16, 2007, 05:12:18 PM
KJV Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

One of the just and right judgments of God was Predestination of the Elect unto salvation.

“How is God just and right,” someone might ask, “when He said all have the Free Will choice of life or death (De 30:19 cp Ge 4:7), but in fact God had already predestined all who would be saved, even before the world began, and not according to any choice they made in this life. (Eph 1:5; 2:8)?

Paul’s words supply the answer, but we must deduce it.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.-kjv

Did “foreknow” (proginosko) is “to know before,” did “predestine” (proorizo) is to “foreordain.” Foreknowing is coordinate with predestinating, naturally read, the first causes the second.

Should we violate Ockham’s razor and view this “not as metaphysically true, but in concession to human limitations of thought” (Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, Bellingham, WA), or allow parsimony dictate as it is the common characteristic evident in correct interpretation?

Accepting the natural reading doesn’t contradict salvation by grace alone as it is clear God already knows who are His, none of the foreknown fail to be conformed to Jesus.

So nothing said so far contradicts salvation by grace alone:

Ephesians 2:5-9  5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:  7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.  8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

“Paul elaborated, And this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Much debate has centered around the demonstrative pronoun “this” (touto). Though some think it refers back to “grace” and others to “faith,” neither of these suggestions is really valid because the demonstrative pronoun is neuter whereas “grace” and “faith” are feminine. Also, to refer back to either of these words specifically seems to be redundant. Rather the neuter touto, as is common, refers to the preceding phrase or clause. (In Eph. 1:15 and 3:1 touto, “this,” refers back to the preceding section.) Thus it refers back to the concept of salvation (2:4-8a), whose basis is grace and means is faith. This salvation does not have its source in man (it is “not from yourselves”), but rather, its source is God’s grace for “it is the gift of God.”  –Walvoord, John F. The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Victor Books (Wheaton, IL), 1983-1985.


So what was this foreknowing for if it’s not for God’s benefit?

There are scriptural parallels to God knowing His own perfectly, yet He still tests their loyalty:

Psalm 11:
4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. 
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. 
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. 
7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

So why does God test those He already knows are His?  The answer is in the book of Job, such tests occur for the benefit of others:

KJV Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them….9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Hence, tests of loyalty occur so that angelic observers can see for themselves God is not wrong about who are His.

But what of the wicked? Note God doesn’t know them with the upright:

Ps 37:18-20
18   The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
19   They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20   But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Nahum 1:7-8
7   The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
8   But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.=kjv

Evidently the wicked are irrelevant to God, as He is good. Therefore God doesn’t want to know them, and so they perish.

So where am I going with this?

Suppose two blind men were describing the same elephant. The one feeling the tail seems to contradict the one touching its ears. But to the one viewing the entire elephant, the contrary statements make perfect sense.

So Paul has in mind a much greater construct than anything proposed by either Pelagius or Calvin. Its not free will versus Election by grace, its God knowing who are His, but choosing to reveal the rightness of that choice to all who might wonder.

Consistent with this construct, the verb proginosko means God “knew these before.”

Before what? Their existence? Nothing that exists does so apart from God or His knowing. God is omnipresent, He fills all things, including Eternity (Is 57:15). God cannot be contained by time and space, the very existence of that is dependant upon Him (1 Ki 8:27; Col 1:15). Hence we read Eph 2:6 “made us sit in heavenly places” or Re. 13:8 “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”)

So there is no “before” God’s knowing, for anything that exists.

However contingencies, “what if” scenarios which never achieve objective existence, can be objects of God's foreknowledge.

So the data leads naturally to this conclusion, God already knew all who are His, but chose to put them to the test, in a contingency that evidenced the rightness of their election: When their will was truly free, they chose God.

This was done for the benefit of creation, not for Him. He already knows who are His.

Lest God’s Elect, whether human or angelic (1 Ti 5:21), mourn the non selection of loved ones, God reveals via foreknowledge why some were selected so all questions about this can be answered. It would be an act of kindness not to foreknow the non elect, as then the full measure of their evil is known only to God.

God offers salvation to those not selected, but these never take Him up on His offer:

KJV Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

KJV Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So all creation will see the Judgments of God:

KJV Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

It was God’s good pleasure and will to save the Elect, and do so in a way that would allow them to enjoy eternity even though some of their loved ones weren’t selected.

KJV Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Probably God chose not to "foreknow" the non elect, to protect His elect from viewing just how evil the non elect could be.

It is written:

KJV 1 John 3:8 …For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This means none of God’s elect will be lost, otherwise the devil’s work wasn’t destroyed.

It follows from all that is revealed about our Loving God, that if even one of His Elect were lost, God would mourn their absence for all eternity. Therefore we can be certain, not a hair upon their head will be lost.

Romans 11:26    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Pages: [1]



More From ChristiansUnite...    About Us | Privacy Policy | | ChristiansUnite.com Site Map | Statement of Beliefs



Copyright © 1999-2019 ChristiansUnite.com. All rights reserved.
Please send your questions, comments, or bug reports to the

Powered by SMF 1.1 RC2 | SMF © 2001-2005, Lewis Media