[came to life]

Holy Scripture tells us that the Saints now asleep in the Lord are very much alive:  Matthew 29:31-32 - Mark 12:26-27, "But about the Resurrection of the dead: have you not read what God said to you, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?  He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."  And again: Revelation 20:4 - "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.  And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God...They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

"But about the Resurrection of the dead"

Context is the Resurrection of the dead (future) not those who sleep in Christ today.

"They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Nothing says that they are able to hear our thoughts and words and are to intercede for us.

He made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the surface of the earth, having determined appointed seasons, and the boundaries of their dwellings, that they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live, and move, and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.' (Act 17:26-28)

For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations." This is in the presence of him whom he believed: God, who gives life to the dead, and calls the things that are not, as though they were. (Rom 4:16-17)

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, our life, is revealed, then you will also be revealed with him in glory. (Col 3:3-4)

Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; (Rom 6:3-8)

For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. (Rom 14:7-9)

Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1Co 15:50-53)

When does the corruptible put on incorruption?  When are we all changed?  When is the corruption removed so that we may inherit the Kingdom of God?

Is Paradise and the the Kingdom of God the same?

[Part 1]

[Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them]

Unless the Father who sent Jesus draws him then he can't come to Christ.  He is an anti-christ by his own testimony. Be careful not to become a partaker of his evil deeds.

For you were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord. Walk as children of light, for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth, proving what is well pleasing to the Lord. Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them. For the things which are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of. But all things, when they are reproved, are revealed by the light, for everything that reveals is light. Therefore he says, "Awake, you who sleep, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Therefore watch carefully how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise; redeeming the time, because the days are evil. (Eph 5:8-16)

For many deceivers have entered into the world, who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the anti-christ. Look to yourselves, so that we may not lose those things which we worked out, but that we may receive a full reward. Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house, nor speak a greeting to him. For he who speaks a greeting to him is partaker of his evil deeds. (2Jo 1:7-11)

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'They will all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me. (Joh 6:44-45)

sojourner,

Thank you for your gracious response.

I can't say that I agree with your conclusions or the basis of truth but I respect your sincerity.

I am sure of one thing and that is that I don't have all the answers.  What I do know is that when he is revealed, I will be like him.  Then I will know.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is. Everyone who has this hope set on him purifies himself, even as he is pure. Everyone who sins also commits lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away our sins, and in him is no sin. Whoever remains in him doesn't sin. Whoever sins hasn't seen him, neither knows him. (1Jo 3:2-6)

For now I will continue to seek God through His Word and His Spirit.

May God Bless you in your journey.

Where does scripture say that saints become Saints by proclamation of the "Church" and that they obtain some special ability to hear the prayers of people all over the world?

Just curious. I have not found it. But maybe you can show me.

 

That would be Matthew 16:19, Luke 10:16, Mark 12:26-27, Romans 8:35-39, Romans 12:10, 1 Thessalonians, and Galatians 6:2. None of the citations is from the Deuterocanonical Books (which are in the Alexandrian canon, where the Septuagint is from; and were considered "inspired" by even the original King James Version of 1611, and I try not to use Deuterocanonical Book citations.)

Even if I allowed that this power was given to the Apostles in the form the Catholic Church would have us believe, there is no indication that it was to be passed on to others after the apostles established the Good News.  We can see by the THE SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS and all the conflict within the Catholic Church throughout history that there has not been this wonderful unified body of tradition that you would like to claim.

Good works are good and profitable to men. But they do not save him.

 
 
I don't think you know the difference between the objective work of Christ and the subjective. That is what is confusing you and why you don't understand Titus 3:4-8.

You keep saying it but you have not shown it to be true.

I don't think I can as I don't know what the Roman Catholic says about it. I don't know anything about the 'new law' either, in fact never heard of it.

Then what does your tradition say about the purpose and affect of the sacraments?

[not by works of righteousness]

sojourner,

Your first text of Titus 8: 3-4 disagrees with your philosophy within the very text.

But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; (Tit 3:4-8)

Good works are good and profitable to men. But they do not save him.

"not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us"

Come out of the darkness of man's corrupted tradition and see the truth of the Good News.

But I might also add, not the understanding as you would like it to mean, but what it has always meant.

Correct again.  Not what the wolves brought in as soon as the Apostles departed but the Good News preached to Abraham and given to Paul by the revelation of Christ.

By the way, you did not address the main point of my post.  Can you reconcile the Good News preached to Abraham with the "New Law" given by the Catholic Church?

[Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever]

It can only be Gospel if it has been lived, believed, practiced as given from the Beginning. God does not change, His Truth does not (has not) change(d), His plan has not changed since before Creation.

You are correct.  It has always been by Grace through Faith  according to His mercy.  It has never been by works of the law or by works of righteousness.

But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; (Tit 3:4-8)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.  There is one Good News that was preached from the days of the elders to now.  It has never changed.  It has always been by faith through grace.  ALL the other stuff  comes after salvation "that we should walk in them".

Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be carried about with different and strange doctrines, for it is good for the heart to be established with grace, not with foods, in which those who have walked in them were not helped. (Heb 13:8-9)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. But to each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (Eph 4:4-7)


Saved by GRACE through FAITH Yesterday, today and forever!

FAITH: Before Christ
"by it the elders obtained a good report"..."looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith"

Even as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Know therefore that those who are of faith, the same are children of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations will be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

"faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it reckoned? Being in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."..."he received a sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith while still uncircumcised; so that he might be the father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be imputed to them also"

Therefore as many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as innumerable as the sand which is by the sea shore, were fathered by one man, and him as good as dead. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and embraced them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

FAITH: While Christ
"But turning and seeing her, Jesus said, Daughter, be comforted; your faith has saved you. And the woman was saved from that hour."

"And He said to her, Your sins are forgiven. And those reclining with Him began to say within themselves, Who is this who even forgives sins? And He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you, go in peace."

FAITH: Now
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

"if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

[Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them. For the things which are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of]

For you were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord. Walk as children of light, for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth, proving what is well pleasing to the Lord. Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them. For the things which are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of. But all things, when they are reproved, are revealed by the light, for everything that reveals is light. Therefore he says, "Awake, you who sleep, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Therefore watch carefully how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise; redeeming the time, because the days are evil. (Eph 5:8-16)

[not by works of righteousness which we have done]

The book of Romans spells out the contrast between the two 'works of the law' and 'works of righteousness' and James speaks of faith and works (works of righteousness) as being the same.

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Faithful is the Word, and as to these things, I desire that you strongly affirm that those believing God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men...And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, so that they may not be unfruitful. All those with me greet you. Greet those who love us in the faith. May grace be with you all. Amen. (Tit 3:4-15)

For if Abraham was justified [or, declared righteous] by works, he has [grounds for] boasting-_but_ not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "But Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." But to the one working, the reward [or, his wage] is not accounted [or, considered] according to grace, _but_ according to debt. (Rom 4:2-4)

- True faith shows itself by its children

 Abraham our father, he was justified [or, shown to be righteous] by means of works, having offered Isaac his son upon the altar, was he not? [Gen. 22:9] Do you see that his faith was working together with his works, and by means of the works his faith was perfected? And [so] was fulfilled the Scripture, the one saying, "But Abraham believed [or, trusted] God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called a friend of God.  So you* see that a person is justified [or, shown to be righteous] by means of works and not by means of faith only. So likewise also Rahab the prostitute was justified [or, shown to be righteous] by means of works, having welcomed the messengers and having sent [them] out by a different way, was she not? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also one's faith without such works is dead. (Jam 2:21-26)


Justified as used in James is to be "shown to be righteous".  

Context showing ones faith to another...Giving evidence of ones faith to another.

Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (Jam 2:18)

[the calling of God are irrevocable]

This is my covenant to them, when I will take away their sins." Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Rom 11:27-29)

We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30)

But arise, and stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose: to appoint you a servant and a witness both of the things which you have seen, and of the things which I will reveal to you; delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom I send you, to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' (Act 26:16-18)

But, brothers, I wrote to you boldly, as reminding you in part, because of the grace that is given to me by God, that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the nations, ministering the gospel of God, so that the offering up of the nations might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (Rom 15:15-16)

And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful to me, but not all things profit. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (1Co 6:11-12)


It doesn't matter that the Catholics call them "New Law" sacraments.  You still can't get there from works of the OLD or NEW law.

You can't finish something that you never started...being "weak through the flesh"


For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law couldn't do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; (Rom 8:2-3)


"Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?"


This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain, if indeed it is even in vain? Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you, is it by works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Therefore know that those of faith, these are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations through faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all nations be blessed." So then those of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are out of works of the Law, these are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith." But the Law is not of faith; but, "The man who does these things shall live in them." (Gal 3:2-12)

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Faithful is the Word, and as to these things, I desire that you strongly affirm that those believing God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men...And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, so that they may not be unfruitful. All those with me greet you. Greet those who love us in the faith. May grace be with you all. Amen. (Tit 3:4-15)


Works are fruits of those believing God.

[being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through Him we also have access by faith into this grace in which we stand]

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. By faith we understand that the ages were framed by a word of God, so that the things being seen not to have come into being out of the things that appear...  But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. By faith Noah prepared an ark... By faith Abraham obeyed... By faith also Sarah herself received strength to conceive... because she judged Him who had promised to be faithful... By faith Abraham..offered up Isaac... And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise, for God had provided some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us. (Heb 11:1-40)

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through Him we also have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice on the hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we glory in afflictions also, knowing that afflictions work out patience, and patience works out experience, and experience works out hope. And hope does not make us ashamed, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit given to us. For we yet being without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will with difficulty die for a righteous one, yet perhaps one would even dare to die for a good one. But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Rom 5:1-9)


God's ways are above our ways..."while we were yet sinners Christ died for us"

We also have access by faith into this grace in which we stand.

["Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"]

i wasted 10 years figuring that out and trying to condemn the only church that did have some sort of unity....

sorry for the curtness of this reply, im just tired of stupid arguments..

When you can reconcile the faith of Abraham and the elders with the "New Law" of the Catholic Church then you might have a valid reason to questions someone else's understanding of scripture.

the only church that did have some sort of unity

Unity in corrupt man made doctrine is not biblical unity.


The jailer, being roused out of sleep and seeing the prison doors open, drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, "Don't harm yourself, for we are all here!" He called for lights and sprang in, and, fell down trembling before Paul and Silas, and brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." They spoke the word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his house. He took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes, and was immediately baptized, he and all his household. (Act 16:27-33)

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?...Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

Every answer to that question from Abraham and the elders through the New Testament has been believe God or believe in Jesus and that faith is counted as righteousness.  All accounts of salvation must reconcile and the only thing mentioned in all accounts is faith (believing God) "...being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform."

After he cared for their wounds he was baptized in obedience to Christ's instruction thus confessing his relationship with Christ that came from his faith through grace.  The baptism was the fruit of living faith, the "good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them."

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we preach: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:8-10)



If men keep looking at the things that are to be seen by other men then they can expect the same result.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and unrighteousness. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the platter, that its outside may become clean also. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitened tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (Mat 23:25-28)

Be careful that you don't do your charitable giving before men, to be seen by them, or else you have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Therefore when you do merciful deeds, don't sound a trumpet before yourself, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may get glory from men. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you do merciful deeds, don't let your left hand know what your right hand does (Mat 6:1-3)

[Good News which I preached to you]

Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to over five hundred brothers at once, most of whom remain until now, but some have also fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all, as to the child born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, who is not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the assembly of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am. His grace which was bestowed on me was not futile, but I worked more than all of them; yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Whether then it is I or they, so we preach, and so you believed. (1Co 15:1-11)

* Good News which I preached to you
* which also you received
* in which you also stand
* by which also you are saved
* if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you

Hold firmly the word which he preached not the "New Law" of the sacraments.

But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if you receive a different spirit, which you did not receive, or a different "good news"... (2Co 11:3-4)

Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you not to obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth among you as crucified? I just want to learn this from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now completed in the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain, if it is indeed in vain? He therefore who supplies the Spirit to you, and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? (Gal 3:1-5)

Neither the Old Law or "New Law" sacraments are a means to salvation.

Having begun in the Spirit by hearing of faith, are you so foolish to believe that you are now completed in the flesh by the works of the Old Law or the "New Law"?

But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ  (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them... now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility thereby. He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone; in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit. (Eph 2:4-22)

"not of yourselves...not of works" - performing the "New Law" sacraments as part of the means for salvation creates a new " law of commandments contained in ordinances" that is of yourself through new works in the law of the sacraments.

I delivered to you first of all that which I also received
* that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
* that he was buried
* that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures
* that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve
* he appeared to over five hundred brothers at once
* he appeared to James, then to all the apostles
* last of all...he appeared to me also

"I am afraid that somehow...your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"


But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:4-10)

For this cause I, Paul, am the prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles, if it is so that you have heard of the administration of that grace of God which was given me toward you; how that by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I wrote before in few words, by which, when you read, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ; which in other generations was not made known to the children of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of his promise in Christ Jesus through the Good News, of which I was made a servant, according to the gift of that grace of God which was given me according to the working of his power. (Eph 3:1-7)

[To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews]

I wouldn't read to much into Paul reasoning with them on the Sabbath.

For though I was free from all, I brought myself under bondage to all, that I might gain the more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law  (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became as weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. Now I do this for the sake of the Good News, that I may be a joint partaker of it. (1Co 9:19-23)

[glorify your Father who is in heaven]

Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Mat 5:16)

But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" Or hasn't the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath made for destruction, and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? (Rom 9:20-24)

Why did God put it in our hearts to desire children/heirs?

God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them. (Gen 1:27)

Could this be part of the character of God??

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Joh 1:12-13)

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ;... (Rom 8:16-17)

For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:26)

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God. For you didn't receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. (Rom 8:14-17)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ; even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without blemish before him in love; having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire, to the praise of the glory of his grace, by which he freely bestowed favor on us in the Beloved, (Eph 1:3-6)

[Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand]

Salvation is not by chance, with your knowledge of scripture how can you write such a statement? Heidi, you say  “ humility is too high a price for most people to pay for their salvation.” ? Did you drop your pride to pay for your salvation?  You know you didn’t .  Not one of us sinful people can do anything to  pay for our salvation. You know this passage…

I think she was talking about not being humble enough to "fully" trust Jesus for our salvation.  Some think we must still add our good works to His sacrifice for salvation.

Faith + anything is not the Good News of Christ.

Because of God's grace He allows us by faith to stand in His grace. The good works that He prepared for us are the fruit of the grace in which we stand.


Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only this, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering works perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope: and hope doesn't disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were yet weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly... But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God's wrath through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by his life... The law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly; that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 5:1-21)

for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)