The general tenor of Scripture is that once a person is born again, they CANNOT lose their salvation. Due to many reasons. I may even venture to conjecture that Israel is a magnificent picture of this. Over and over and over again they've screwed up to put it succinctly. Yet, they are still God's nation. Have they lose their place as the Treasure of God's eye, or His chosen people? No. Salvation is come first to the Jew then the Gentiles if I remember Romans states. To say that we could lose our salvation would mean that God would go back on His Word. Is it not true that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but all come to everlasting life? If this is true, then why should He go back on His word. If we lost our salvation, we would be in essense going back to that unregenerate and totally depraved state (and unwilling and unable to come to Christ of our own free will) that we were before the Holy Spirit stepped into our lives. God initiates Salvation ONCE. Not over and over again. The author of Hebrews understood this. Hence why he penned the words in 6:4-6. You can't get any more exact than that. Go look at the greek if you don't believe me. This is not directed at anyone, but I will offer up this challenge. DO NOT have your ears itched and just take on a whim what someone else tells you. Instead search it yourself. That will mean getting down to the core structure of the sentence and the language it is written in. I've studied it myself. I am a second semester freshman at a christian university where our motto is "Christ makes the difference" I am about to enter into Theological Research and Writing and Greek 1 my next semester. Make the jump and dive into God's truths. Quit using the overused church terminology that is so prevalent in today's church and use a biblically based, systematic theology, THEN you'll understand the deeper truths of God. And I will conjecture to state that the eternal security of the believer is one of those truths. Why? because I know it personally to be true. Now if some would question am I saved...good for them, but I kn ow my creator and my sustainer. Just a few thoughts.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

"The Sovereignty of God is the stumbling block on which thousands fall and perish; and if we go contending with God about His sovereignty it will be our eternal ruin. It is absolutely necessary that we should submit to God as an absolute sovereign, and the sovereign of our souls; as one who may have mercy on whom He will have mercy and harden whom He will"
Jonathan Edwards

Charming, just when I peek in, ya'll are discussing a favorite ice breaker of mine. Free will vs. free moral agency. Sorry, but I feel secure in knowing that it's nothing that I can do and it's completely of God's will that I do anything and that His Sovereignty reigns supreme. Just my two cents in on this whole deal. As those of you probably remember, I hold dear to my heart the doctrines of grace which I personally and systematically believe to be Biblical and accurate while still upholding the inerrancy of Scripture. Call me calvinist if you'd like...but there's my two cents. Ultimately God's will shall be done, and the Hiedelburg catechism nails it spot on..."The chief end of man is to glorify God" Time to head to bed considering I have a nice paper to write about the last big argument i had...plus i've been a little under the weather as of lately, a run to waffle house sounds great right now but meh...must resist the urge. Hopefully after things settle down here i'll get a chance to post more. I've been kicking butt and taking names at work, so i've earned myself a promotion along with praise from the director of our department, i've started my second semester of classes off to a great start and i have the greatest friends I've ever known...so that's what's new in my life at the moment. Talk to you all later. And please...those of you who are gonna blatantly disagree with me, that's fine, but don't make it an attack...we're way to quick sometimes to attack...just thought i'd add that in. Night! Dominus Vobiscum

Coram Deo,
Joshua

P.S.: Antinomianism is a bad thing when we get into the dealings of free will.

I was wondering if you guys had ever heard of this song:

You Are The One That We Praise:

Wonderful, Merciful Savior
Precious Redeemer and Friend
Who would have thought that a lamb would rescue the souls of men. Oh you rescued the Souls of Men.

Counselor, Comfortor, Keeper, Spirit we long to embrace.
You offer hope when our hearts have
Hopelessly lost our way, Oh we've hopelessly lost our way.

YOu are the one that we praise...
You are the one we adore...
You give the healing and praise
Our hearts always hunger for,
Oh, Our hearts always hunger for.

Almighty, Infinite Father
Faithfully loving your own.
here in our weakness you find us
Falling before your throne,
Oh, we're falling before your throne.

You are the one that we praise
You are the one we adore.
You give the healing and praise,
Our hearts always hunger for,
Oh, Our hearts always hunger for.


I just listen to that song over and over again. The style our college singing group does with this is excellent. Just thought i'd see. God Bless.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

I'm not good at intersession, however, I do know that God's Word is a present help in time of darkness and is a light unto our path. Here are a few of my favorite Scripture verses and the words to a song that I often listen to if I'm feeling down and out.

Romans 8:31

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Corinthians 4:8-12

8 We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. 11 For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So death is at work in us, but life in you.

And when I feel like i'm out of the battle or it's getting too hard...I look to what my Savior will look like when He comes to judge this world as well as what He will look like in heaven. Take a look at these Scriptures:

Revelation 1:12

12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

and the King of Glory!!

Revelation 19

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

What a glorious day that shall be. It strengthens my soul to know that MY God is Sovereign and still has all things under His control. It strengthens my soul to know that MY God is a shield in a time of trouble...a very present help in time of darkness. He is a warrior. I counsel people on the side as a hobby and because I care for people and what they go through. Yes, I am 18 years old, and I do not have much experience, however, I find that in order to take the focus off of myself, God allows me the joy of listening to others and helping them by offering sound biblical advice. God is so good. Our God is sovereign and NOTHING will triumph against Him. As you said, the War has already been won. However we are still fighting the battles...and we are beaten and scarred...yet, when the wounds heal...oh how glorious the day. I hope something i've said has made ya feel better and that God has in some way used Scripture to help  ya. Yes, even a calvinist has a heart for people :-P I'm prayin for ya, look toward the mountains! That's where our help comes from!!

Here's the words to that song.

The Warrior Is a Child - Twila Paris

Lately i've been winning battles left and right
Even winners can get wounded in the fight
People say that I'm amazing
Strong beyond my years
But they don't see inside of me
I'm hiding all the tears

They don't know that I go running home when i fall down
They don't know who picks me up when no one is around
I drop my sword and cry for just a while with Him
Cause deep inside this armor, The warrior is a child

Unafraid because His armor is the best
Even soldiers need a quiet place to rest
People say that I"m amazing
Never face retreat
But they don't see the enemies that lay me at his feet.

They don't know that I go running home when I fall down
They don't know know who picks me up when no one is around
I drop my sword and cry for just a while with Him
Cause deep inside this armour the warrior is a child...

That describes me to the letter. Yes, I have a good grip on theology and A LOT of people see me as this godly person, but they don't see that still inside the warrior, i'm still HIS child. Some do, some don't but thank God we can fall down at His feet and rest. God Bless

Coram Deo,
Joshua

That little stun keyboard button is called the enter button when some little kiddie hacker likes to "try" to hack a computer system. it is a powertrip and a bunch of bologna. Lol I knew Christians unite was on Linux. I don't see any plausible reason it would be hosted on the Windows OS. Admin does a good job keeping things up. There are more and more programs being written for linux, but only the most severe ones that are actually made by real hackers, are enough to do any damage. The worst someone could do to my machine is make me do a full system wipe which is no problem. Just  3 hours out of my day is what it normally takes for me to completely restore everything to the way it was before tthe virus got on my computer. That includes a full system wipe. It's always good to keep a handy home made backup disk. One with programs, and one with documents and other important information, and one with music on it if you'd like. I hate those bare pieces of junk they ship with standard machines nowadays. I'd rather create my own...hee hee. As you can probably tell with my personality, I would like to do things myself. I adminnedin 5 christian chat rooms at one time...I even hosted one for a few weeks, that was a job in and of itself, keeping admins in there and trained enough to enforce the rules. Not to mention the little punks who wanted to hack my computer. I had one guy who asked me if he wanted to execute the file through e-mail or dos. Apparently he got the wrong computer, because I don't run DOS any longer. I have it disabled on to where NO one can get into it unless I allow them. Anywho, i'm currently looking into checking out the x86 build of OS X 10.4.3 Tiger and wiping my Inspiron 6000. I believe it would make a formidable machine if I could get the Mac OS on here. Man i wish that the makers of Apple's kernel and the GUI of Linux would combine. Or maybe it's the other way around...both have great kernels and both are great OS's. Say have any of ya'll tried Ubuntu? I've seen it's a nifty little bootable OS. Any thoughts? Later

Coram Deo,
Joshua

I have studied the Scriptures concerning the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 states it beautifully. The Holy Spirit is essential in the Believer's life as a means of conviction, and it is the way whereby God continues that workmanship that Paul speaks about in Philippians 1:6. Continuing it until the Day of Jesus Christ. I've been a believer for 4 full years and I've never seen the usage of tongues in a Biblical sense. I have witnessed what seemed to be the usages of tongues...however it was nothing but senseless babble. There was definately spirits in that place, but it wasn't of God, otherwise, I'd have been at peace with God's work. You see, it's common among believers to have a sense of familiarity with those who are fellow believers. Our spirit rejoices with another's spirit, and that was not felt when I witnessed these "tongues" Afterward I have spend since then countless hours studying the gift of tongues amongst other doctrine to see whether or not it is biblical. So I will state this: I'm studying to show myself approved...will the rest of you take that challenge? :-D You see, I like to challenge people and provoke thought, much like I was once and often still am. :-D God Bless.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a hypothetical situation...the thing about Hebrews 6:4-6 is that it's basically saying that if they lost their salvation it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to do anything to get it back. This isn't the message of the mainstream line of thought today because they say that you can re-gain it should you lose it. There is the flaw in the thinking that Hebrws 6:4-6 teach that one can lose their salvation. We don't know what happened to Judas, however we do not know what was on his heart, so we cannot say with 100% complete accuracy that he went to heaven. There is supporting evidence for either side of that arguement based on his actions. The most common arguement that is brought to the table is "Well he was chosen as one of Jesus' disciples." Correct, but does that mean that he was saved by grace through faith in Jesus for the remission and covering of sins? One has to ask themself that question if they are going to come to the table with that stance. Now onto Hebrews 10:26. I counter with does Scripture not say that Jesus' sacrifice was ONCE and for all? (Ref Hebrews 9:24-28) This states that Jesus does not offer Himself often and that He was offered up once for the sins of many. Now i'm sure we are in agreement that Jesus only had to come to die ONCE. Now the author of Hebrews is saying in chapter 10 the same thing in Chapter 9. He bounces right off of talking about not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, into saying "don't go and sin willfully." My question is this: as a Believer with the Holy Spirit within us do we still WANT to sin if we are saved according to His will? The answer is no. we are given a new heart, and a new spirit to serve Him. Yes, we'll still fall prey to sin, that's part of our human nature, however, if we are truely saved and born again, we aren't going to WANT to go back to that fallen nature once we've tasted that which God has given us. I'm being summoned by my parents to take my medicine, but i'll be back in a little while. Think on these things. God Bless.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

I just saw your post, and i'm glad that's not what you were saying GKB. Thought i'd add that. Now we're all on the same page. :-D

Coram Deo,
Joshua

I seriously hope that's not what he's saying, cause we're gonna have a big problem if that's the case. :-D I happen to agree with what you have stated DigitGen. You have provided a biblical basis for what you have state...that's all we can ask of you. The thing I will say is biblically speaking...it seems that tongues have ceased and I will say this first and foremost...do not jump on that statement because I am making a generalized statement. I know some out there are like wolves ready to argue at a moment's notice that tongues are indeed used. I've never seen them used...and I have been witness to the power of God. I do NOT have the gift of tongues...my gifts lie elsewhere. As have been prevalent in my writing and my theology. Such may be the same case...it's up to the individual person as to whether they believe tongues are still around or not. Personally, I have studied and have come to the conclusion that they have ceased. Biblical tongues that is. Many others hold that stance as well, however, i'm not going to limit God to what He can do. He may very well use tongues...however, not in a widespread usage as in Biblical period. If you study the words for tongues in the greek, you'll learn that they were in reference to an actual language spoken on this earth, not a 'special' prayer language. God is the author of all language, and there is one language that He speaks rather fluently and that's the language of the heart. Why do we need a special language to communicate with God in our prayers when we speak to Him directly from our heart? I'm just offering up those questions to think about, not to respond. This subject has been battered and worn out for decades if not centuries. Even Paul spoke against false usage of tongues...i believe to the Corinthians, but enough about that. Tongues are not essential to the salvation of the soul, nor are the essential in the church today. Also, I will not stand here and write off tongues. I will say this though GKB, cranial knowledge is not a bad thing to have when discussing matters of Biblical interpretation and hermenutics my friend. Not everyone has to have "cranial" knowledge in order to be saved...nor am I saying that anyone has to have it, but after you are saved, we are told to study to show ourselves a workman approved unto God if I remember correctly. It's around, oh say 2 Timothy 2

15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene.
ESV

I'll give you the KJV and the NLT to further convey my statement concerning scholarship.

 15Work hard so God can approve you. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.

NLT

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

KJV


Just a few thoughts. God Bless

Coram Deo,
Joshua

To respond I shall take a few minutes and write out as detailed as I can without being too exhaustive on this issue.

Man is human. Demoninations are made by man because they felt some leading of the Holy Spirit, in the valid cases such as the breaks off of the Anglican Church into the major denominations of Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian to name a few, to break off with what they did not agree with as far as doctrine is concerned. Hence why we are called Protestants. If we protested against the Catholic church's teachings, what's to say we won't protest against those of our own teachings. Such is the nature of humans. You're right about one thing Mr./Mrs. Pocket, Scripture is right. It is the SOLE authority of matters concerning God and doctrine. there will NEVER be a unity of believers on all points of doctrine UNTIL Jesus comes and raptures His church out and we rest in Eternal communion with Him. However, I will state this once again. There are basic fundamental truths that are attacked by satan that are found in Scripture. Most of these truths have been expounded upon in the Catechisms, Confessions, and Creeds of the early church fathers. If you consider them, you'll find that all of them can agree on the basic fundamental doctrines that are essential to the christian faith. I can rattle off some basic ones such as the virgin birth of Christ, Christ's earthly ministry including His miracles and sinlessness.  His baptism of John the baptist and fullness of the Holy Spirit. His denial of Peter, His trial, death on the Cross, the renting of the temple veil, His final words, his burial in a tomb, and His resurrection on the third day. Just to name a few. As a believer, first and foremost, the common denominator between all believers is a faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. It is a CHANGE from death to life, from unrepentance to repentance, from complacency to ACTION.  This is truth my friend.

I do have one question if the moderators will appoint me this one question, if not, please feel free to erase this sentence from my post, or IM me and I'll retract this sentence as soon as possible. Question: What "confession" are you? Scripture itself attests that any BELIEVER who has recieved the Holy Spirit is, in fact, part of a family. Hence why we call each other "brother" and "sister" I'll give you the verse that supports what i've just said.

Romans 8:12-17

So then, brothers,we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons[e] of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
(ESV)

What does that say? Paul uses the word "brothers" or brethren as the KJV translates it. Paul understood the unity of believers and that no matter what the setbacks he may have faced or doctrinal challenges he faced, those who were sincerely believers were considered brothers. Also, since we've been ADOPTED, the spirit says that we are Children of God and if you'll notice it says "Then heirs-heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ..." Taken in context, that gives the picture of a FAMILY. Thus why we call each other "brother"

The underlying issue here is not denomination, but one of human pride. I believe that when one seriously studies the Word THEMSELVES under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then they will find that the Spirit will guide them to others whom have been guided to that same conclusion. It's a matter of whether or not we are willing to listen. I, for one, have concluded that it is essential to study the Word, myself, because I will not be just told what is said, but I'll let the Spirit do the guiding. If what I have studied happens to agree with what the Pastor or Preacher is proclaiming, celebration is in order and my spirit rejoices. If not, then I will seek to understand that position that was put forth before I make any judgement about what has been said. This happens when we take TIME to discern what is being stated. Again, there are certain fundamental truths in Scripture that HAVE to be agreed on because they are essential to salvation, which is the common ground unifying ALL of Christ's church. Now if you so choose, salvation can be taken a step further into deeper, theological, soteriological, and philisophical terms than should be presented in the local church or on this board for that matter. Since we (as a body) are of differences in doctrine, many come to the table with presuppositions that are uncharitable even before a stance is presented. So, i'll put it this way: Unify under the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith, and arm yourself with a systematic, fundamental, practical application of the Word of God, and you will find unity there. If your focus is on squabbling about various doctrine that are not essential to salvation, you and the rest of us will falter because we come to the table as HUMANS and will more than often let our presuppositions get in the way of anything the other party is trying to say. SO yes, if we are Believers (christians) then we are of the same family and priesthood. Hence why we call each other brother and sister. There is nothing wrong with that. I do not post to offend, I only post to provoke thought. I hope you will see my words as words of encouragement and guidance. This is to whomever shall read this posting. God Bless

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Hi there butterflies.

There are certain advantages to using a Mac Mini. It is efficient for small tasks, but it's nowhere near competitive for those who are serious users of say Photoshop, CS 2, Dreamweaver (not the user here) and a few other programs that the iBook, G4/G5, and Powerbook can handle. So if monetary funds weren't a problem for me, i'd go ahead and get a Powerbook. I have a little iMac that i'm playing with with OS X 10.4.3. Better usability i think.

Joshua

Such is the nature of using the Windows OS...lol. You're right, it is essential to have real-time protection. You need to take into account your ports, your antivirus, spyware, firewalls, incoming and outgoing tcp/udp packets...and constantly scanning cause those little 12 year old kiddies who like to just come up with something retarded and send out junk to mess up people's computers. It gives us who do it to further unlock all a product has to offer a bad name...shame on them. Lol. Just a few thought.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Aww that's bad news that Symantec has bought out Sygate. I like my sygate rather than Norton. I don't even use Symantec any longer cause personally, I think their firewall isn't the top of the line. They try to incorporate too many things into one and we all know that when you try to do that the caliber of a product goes way down. Both of you are running a better computer than I have...lol. I have a 1.6 ghz processor, 512 shared DIMM RAM and a 40 GB hard drive. So i'm running a little slow. There are however some memory tweaks that you can do if you have 512 or better that will take out that blue taskbar and clear type and all that good jive. Nortel routers are pretty good, and of course Cisco routers are pretty good, but they cost a pretty penny. These little linksys routers are so hackable...and yes, I said hack. LOL. You pretty much have to hack them in order to customize them and safeguard them to a bit of an extent. ZoneAlarm does decent as far as firewalls are concerned. I still stick with my combination of Sygate and PeerGuardian. Since i'm on dial up I don't have much going right now causei'm at home. I'll put it this way, when it concerns a.v. software and firewalls...levels of protection is something that is essential. Now if you're running a Mac, you don't need as many levels of protection. So needless to say, layers of protection is a must for windows users. Just a few thoughts.

Joshua

I agree with ya buddy. I'm from South Carolina, and down here, in the "christian" book stores i've seen a few who have it listed in the literature section. You and I are in agreement on what you've said. There is a sloppy exegesis of Scripture around here and every else. Hence, why I vowed not to become like the mediocre parishioner who just takes what's being said and doesn't really have their own systematic theology.

Joshua