DISCUSSION FORUMS
MAIN MENU
Home
Help
Advanced Search
Recent Posts
Site Statistics
Who's Online
Forum Rules
Bible Resources
• Bible Study Aids
• Bible Devotionals
• Audio Sermons
Community
• ChristiansUnite Blogs
• Christian Forums
• Facebook Apps
Web Search
• Christian Family Sites
• Top Christian Sites
• Christian RSS Feeds
Family Life
• Christian Finance
• ChristiansUnite KIDS
Shop
• Christian Magazines
• Christian Book Store
Read
• Christian News
• Christian Columns
• Christian Song Lyrics
• Christian Mailing Lists
Connect
• Christian Singles
• Christian Classifieds
Graphics
• Free Christian Clipart
• Christian Wallpaper
Fun Stuff
• Clean Christian Jokes
• Bible Trivia Quiz
• Online Video Games
• Bible Crosswords
Webmasters
• Christian Guestbooks
• Banner Exchange
• Dynamic Content

Subscribe to our Free Newsletter.
Enter your email address:

ChristiansUnite
Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 09, 2020, 02:05:48 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
282851 Posts in 27483 Topics by 3790 Members
Latest Member: Goodwin
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  ChristiansUnite Forums
|-+  Theology
| |-+  Debate (Moderator: admin)
| | |-+  a question about free will
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: a question about free will  (Read 2572 times)
this_guy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


View Profile
« on: January 21, 2006, 08:38:31 AM »

Hello everyone, I'm new to this site. I came here to ask some questions regarding free will. I don't exactly get the concept of it and the reason Ive come here to ask is because if someone doesn't believe in free will then he doesn't believe that he is responsible for his sins. I'm not sure if I'm a Christian or not for a few reason, one is my lack of understanding on HOW free will can exist. Ive received a list of questions I was given concerning free will, Ive also posted my answers to these questions. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated, especially since I seem like the only guy on earth to dare talk about it. By the way, my aim isn't to "argue" about it, its to have a debate so that I can see whether I have a solution, or whether someone can point out a flaw in my theory. So here are the questions I was given, and my answers to them:

Question1: Do you contend that there are no genuinely free choices in any circumstance?
Question2: Do you contend that every nuance of human emotion is only the simple product of biochemical processes that have been predetermined?
Question3: Are all apparent choices actual choices or merely an illusion of choice?
Question4: Is the predeterminer external or internal to any given individual.

Answer1: There are no free choices.
Answer2: Human emotion = biochemical processes
Answer3: Seems as though we make choices, but the choices are made for us. We don't really make choices.
Answer4: Ultimately it is external. Genetics or „nature” determine some portion of our characteristics, our experiences determine the remainder. Its easy to see how experiences or „environment” can determine who we are. We do what is according to our genetics and environment. If someone is born with an abnormal gene in his DNA, then he might be predisposed to murdering people for example. Its not his/her choice, he/she was just born that way because nature screwed up. This is quite clear. This is from the secular standpoint. From a religious standpoint, either an evil „being” is controlling a person, or a good „being” is, therefore it is external. If neither side is controlling a human, then the neutral „nature” is controlling a human through genes and environment, so it can be both internal and external.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Logged
Soldier4Christ
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 59556


One Nation Under God


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2006, 10:57:44 AM »

Quote
Question1: Do you contend that there are no genuinely free choices in any circumstance?

On the contrary. Man has the capability of thinking, reasoning and choice making. We can make good choices or we can make bad choices. making choices have consequences. If we make a bad choice there are bad consequences. Likewise if we make good choices there are good consequences. God gave us this ability because He wants people that are worshipping Him willingly. To have someone worship Him without choice would be meaningless to Him.

Quote
Question2: Do you contend that every nuance of human emotion is only the simple product of biochemical processes that have been predetermined?

I think I know where you are going with this. Biochemical processes may have some effect on human emotions. Here I again refer you to my answer to question one. We are given the ability to think, reason and make choices, therefore we do have control over our emotions and our actions. We can give into those emotions and let them control us or we can learn (another human ability) to control them. i.e. A human emotion triggered by biochemical process = hunger. We can give into this emotion and eat or we can resist it and not eat. Some people have an abundance of this and when they give into it overeat and become fat. If we resist it to much we can starve to death. If we learn to control it we eat what is necessary for proper sustinance.

Quote
Question3: Are all apparent choices actual choices or merely an illusion of choice?

Choices are actual choices. See question # 2

Quote
Question4: Is the predeterminer external or internal to any given individual.

I consider it being a little bit of both. Genetics may have some to do with this but so does our environment. Again we allow these things to control us or we learn to control them. To think otherwise would be to say that we are not able to think and reason. i.e. Two brothers with the same identical genetic makeup and raised in the exact same environmental conditions and situations. One brother takes a learning experience negatively and turns to crime. The other brother takes that same experience and turns it into a positive by learning not to do that. The situation I am talking about here is say a set of parents are abusing both brothers. When the brothers grow up one "passes" this abuse on while the other one says no I am not going to treat other people that way. This is a definite choice made by both.

Logged

Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
nChrist
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 64256


May God Lead And Guide Us All


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2006, 11:22:13 AM »

Hello This_Guy,

I've already welcomed you in another area, but WELCOME again.

We all make choices by free will every day for life. We are not robots. If we were robots, whose robots would we be? Some would say "God's robots", but that can't be since God would have all of us obeying him and Saved. The first man and woman made free will choices, good and bad, and the same is true for us today.

Some people grossly confuse portions of the Holy Bible that deal with GOD'S foreknowledge. YES, GOD knew the number of hairs on your head before the foundation of the world. GOD also knows how you will reply to this post, but that does not mean that he forced you to reply in a particular way. ALMIGHTY GOD knows all things about HIS Creation, including the time that a sparrow will fall from the sky.

If all men were robots and God could program them to do whatever HE wanted, why did JESUS die on the Cross to rescue us from the curse of sin and death? If we were God's robots, none of us would sin because God hates sin. BUT, God did give all of us free will to make choices from the very beginning.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 10:8-10 NASB  "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

Romans 8:37-39 NASB  But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Logged

2nd Timothy
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2706


Resident Meese Master


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2006, 11:27:16 AM »

Hello "This Guy"  Welcome to CU!


Rather than answer your listed questions, I thought I would share my thinking on the topic if thats OK?


Free will is something the God created us with.   We have a choice to choose whether or not we will serve Him.   Adam and Eve were created with free will also.   Because they chose to believe a lie over what God had said, they disobeyed Gods command, and fell from Grace.   The rest of us are born sinners with a sinful nature that we inherrited from this.

Scripture says that there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood.  This is why the Hebrews were instructed to shed the blood of innocent animals as an atonement for their sins.  Since sin entered the world through man, the shedding of a sinless man was required to ultimately bring us back into fellowship with God the Father.  Of course, Jesus Christ was the man who was sinless and died on our behalf, shedding His righteous blood for our sins as requirement for the forgiveness of sins.

Now You and Me, when presented with this Gospel of Christ Jesus, the son of God and what He has done for us, we have a choice.  Free will.   God does not force His grace upon us.  He calls us to it, and either receive it, or reject it.   

We can serve our own WILL and live our lives as we have been....or we can surrender to His Will and accept His provision for our sins. 

This is Free Will!   A choice to choose His way or ours.   Just as Adam Eve had.


Quote
From a religious standpoint, either an evil „being” is controlling a person, or a good „being” is, therefore it is external. If neither side is controlling a human, then the neutral „nature” is controlling a human through genes and environment, so it can be both internal and external.


The problem with man is our sinful heart.   Its in our very nature to sin.  This is evident even in little children.  They don't (at first) learn how to deceive and lie when they are caught doing something they were told not to.  They have a natural sinful instinct to cover their wrong doing because of the old sinful nature.   This again all goes back to our inherited sinfulness from the fall of man in the garden.   




Quote
the reason Ive come here to ask is because if someone doesn't believe in free will then he doesn't believe that he is responsible for his sins.


Man is free to choose whatever he wants to believe about himself.   However, when God turns on the spotlight through His word, it becomes crystal clear that we are sinful beings in need of a Saviour.   We would never measure up to His Holiness and Righteousness.


Quote
I'm not sure if I'm a Christian or not for a few reason, one is my lack of understanding on HOW free will can exist


God gave us Free will, because He does not wish to have Robots programmed to serve and worship Him.   He wants us realize our need for Him and come to Him because of the Greatness of the Love He showed us by giving up His own life on our behalf.    He wants genuine Love and adoration from us, not automation.   This is the reason for free will.




Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Our inherited nature from the fall of the first man.




Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death,


As promised by God, He told Adam He would die if he ate from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.



Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--


We not only carry the sin nature, but we all carry the curse that comes with it.   Death!



Joh 3:16  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Gods Mercy and Grace reaching out to man.

Rom 5:8  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Act 2:21  'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED



This is Gods answer to mans failings.   He wants us to be with Him, and we are very dear to Him, even in our fallen state.   But He will not force you to accept His provision, thats your choice...Free Will!   But its hard to push aside the manner of Love He has showed us, even though we don't deserve it.   Even in our sinfulness, we can know how amazing His love is for us, just by truly understanding the lengths He has gone to for us.


If you want to KNOW you are saved, I encourage you to confess your sins to Him, and ask for this free gift.

Rom 10:9  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;



Its that simple friend.    But its your choice (Free Will).   Choose Him, wont you?


Love in Christ Jesus.
Logged

Tim

Enslaved in service to Christ
this_guy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2006, 12:36:11 PM »

Thank you all for the input, it is much appreciated.
However, ironically there are some Bible passages that keep me from understanding this fully:
1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
John 8:42
[ The Children of the Devil ] Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

There was also the parable of seeds being sown in Matthew 13:4-8 (NIV):

4) As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5) Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6) But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7) Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Cool Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown

Lets suppose someone is a child of the devil, and another is the child of God. Each side is still capable of doing good and doing bad, even if the child is a child of God because of what is written in 1 John 5:19. Given this, is it safe to assume that children of the devil have *no chance* to get into heaven, and that while they may have the ability to do something good (in a secular sense, ie. an atheist giving to charity) they still do not have the free will to choose to obey God because they are children of the devil.
Or lets suppose one is "planted" in an area of shallow soil, he/she quickly grows, but becomes scorched? Is it the seed's fault that it was planted in the wrong place? After all, according to the chapter, *the farmer* scattered the seed. It wasn't the seed's decision where to be placed.

By the way 2nd Timothy, I have asked for salvation and prayed the prayer, and have even had a full body baptism. Over the course of my "Christian walk" there were problems. I also found out that I have a certain mental condition, which made it harder to continue in this walk, especially hard to pray. This is what led me to thinking about free will, because my condition causes me to do things (not neccessarily bad things) that ordinarily I wouldn't do. It is said that with medication the smyptoms could ease up. With this information it seemed apparent that chemicals determine our actions. This also leads me to doubt my salvation because nothing "unclean" can enter heaven. There have also been words spoken, that I wouldn't have spoken ordinarily(theoretically), that were caused by this condition. These certain words said weren't really intentional, but if I'd have full intention of saying them with a clear and "normal" mind, then they would have surely condemned me. My other source of doubt it whether I am responsible for uttering these words, I argue that I may not have said them if my mental state were "normal". This is why I made my second post in another thread about many Christians claiming that Jesus forgives ALL sins.

Thank you for your assistance!
Logged
this_guy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2006, 12:52:08 PM »

blackeyedpeas, Ive just read your other post after I wrote my previous post. Thank you and others for the welcome. You say that there is no sin that Jesus does not forgive? Does this mean that Judas and Peter were finally saved even though Judas betrayed Jesus, and Peter disowned him? If they were both saved in the end, then who is Jesus speaking to in Matthew 12:31, to Christians, non-Christians, or everyone?

Matthew 12:31 (NIV):
31) And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Logged
Soldier4Christ
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 59556


One Nation Under God


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2006, 04:32:37 PM »

You are carrying this analogy much further than what it was meant for and reading more into it than what is there. What it sounds to me is that you are attempting to have an excuse for a person to continue in sin because "it is not his/her fault", that they are "made that way".

In order to give this excuse you are reading more into the analogy of the farmer and seeds than what is given there. We are told that we are without excuse.

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

All mankind is a child of the Devil until they have made that willfull decision and accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour thereby becoming a child of God. It is not based on works either but on faith and the grace of God. However it is like the question that Paul asked in Romans. "Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

As Paul said, "God Forbid".

If we purposefully and with intent continue to sin, saying oh well God will forgive me, then we are not following what we are told. If we love Him, we will do whatever we can to please Him. To please Him is to attempt to do what is righteous. Yes, while we are in the flesh we will make mistakes and we will sin. As we are told God knows what is in our hearts. He knows if we unintentionally sinned or if we did so with a complete disregard for what He has told us.

Logged

Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
2nd Timothy
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2706


Resident Meese Master


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2006, 11:04:53 PM »

PR once again has said this very well indeed!   



Quote
By the way 2nd Timothy, I have asked for salvation and prayed the prayer, and have even had a full body baptism. Over the course of my "Christian walk" there were problems. I also found out that I have a certain mental condition, which made it harder to continue in this walk, especially hard to pray. This is what led me to thinking about free will, because my condition causes me to do things (not neccessarily bad things) that ordinarily I wouldn't do. It is said that with medication the smyptoms could ease up. With this information it seemed apparent that chemicals determine our actions. This also leads me to doubt my salvation because nothing "unclean" can enter heaven. There have also been words spoken, that I wouldn't have spoken ordinarily(theoretically), that were caused by this condition. These certain words said weren't really intentional, but if I'd have full intention of saying them with a clear and "normal" mind, then they would have surely condemned me. My other source of doubt it whether I am responsible for uttering these words, I argue that I may not have said them if my mental state were "normal". This is why I made my second post in another thread about many Christians claiming that Jesus forgives ALL sins.


I think I understand this condition you speak of, although I am not very knowledgable about its workings.

I can say from my own experience, that under certain situations all Christians might be inclined to do things or say things that would be considered sinful, even though they have already received Christ.    Even Paul speaks about this some....


Rom 7:15  For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16  But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
Rom 7:17  So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
Rom 7:20  But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:21  I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
Rom 7:22  For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
Rom 7:23  but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1  Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3  For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4  so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7  because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8  and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:10  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12  So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
Rom 8:13  for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14  For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Rom 8:15  For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17  and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.



Some might use this passage to say that its OK to sin, but clearly that is not what is meant.   I believe what Paul is saying here, is that we who have accepted Christ and walk by the Spirit will see this war being waged in our very beings.   Unbelievers do not know this struggle, because their mind set is not on pleasing God or subjecting themselves to the Laws of God.   However, Believers, having new heart and mind of God in them, will see this war being waged in their daily lives against our mortal sinful fleshy desires.    The key part for me in this is....

Rom 8:12  So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
Rom 8:13  for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14  For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Rom 8:15  For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

Conintually putting to death the deeds of my sinful flesh through repentance and prayer.   As believers we are not following the fleshy appitites of the flesh, though they still wage war against our renewed spirit in Christ.   We are instead following our new Spiritual appitite for the things of God because we have a new Heart and Mind set on things that are pure and Holy!



This is the walk!   

Once again....

Rom 8:7  because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8  and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,[....]

This verse says that Unbelievers are not even able to subject themselves to the Laws of God.   The idea here, is we are to put to death sin in our mortal bodies through surrender to Christ and repentance, and subjecting our hearts to Gods Law for conviction and cleansing.   This is mind that has been renewed by the Spirit and seeks to allow Him to Live through us.


Gal 2:20  "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.



If I understand the mental condition you refer to, I believe that God can deliver you from that!   


2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


I would encourage you to seek out your pastor if you have one to help you address this issue.   I will certainly have you in prayer regarding this!


Love in Christ!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 06:20:28 AM by 2nd Timothy » Logged

Tim

Enslaved in service to Christ
nChrist
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 64256


May God Lead And Guide Us All


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2006, 07:49:49 AM »

AMEN BROTHERS!

This_Guy,

1 John and other portions of Scripture are famous for causing confusion, but only if verses are taken out of context. Please read the entire book, and you will notice what appears to be contradictions, even in the same chapter. They aren't contradictions at all when the entire book is studied in context.

There are no perfect Christians.
There are no Christians without sin.
___________________________
BUT, portions of 1 John and many other portions of the Holy Bible describe forgiveness of sin.

You talk about a condition that causes you to do things that you don't want to do, things that you consider sin. There probably is a medical name for your specific condition, but all Christians have a condition that they struggle with for their entire lives. The old man of flesh is still with a Christian, but it no longer has dominion over the child of God. By that, I mean that Christians don't wallow in sin and enjoy it. Christians have the Holy Spirit of God living in their hearts, and the Spirit tells them this is wrong or that is wrong. It is a struggle for life, but GOD wins. See the next paragraph.

When you accept JESUS Christ as your Lord and Saviour, the Holy Spirit of God comes into your heart and SEALS it as a pledge of the Eternal Promises of God. The PROMISE of God is in effect the moment that a new child of God accepts JESUS. GOD can't lie, and GOD keeps all of His Promises. Sin does not cause a child of God to lose their Salvation. Sin does cause Grief for the believer and for God, but the Blood of JESUS on the Cross is more than enough to forgive the sins of the world. If the believer wants a close walk in the SPIRIT, the believer will confess their sins and pray for forgiveness. If they don't pray for forgiveness, their fellowship with JESUS will be damaged, BUT NOT LOST! Please keep these facts in mind and go to the next paragraph.

At one time or another, nearly all Christians will suffer illness of many kinds that might make them say or do things they normally wouldn't do. Please let me give you a few examples to illustrate this. A Christian has a stroke or Alzheimer's and does all kinds of things they normally would not do. Many of these things might be sin, BUT GOD does NOT take away their Salvation because of the sin or the things done because of the illness. GOD has already made a promise that WILL BE KEPT perfectly, regardless of whether the believer loses their mind, goes insane, goes into a coma, or any number of other medical or mental conditions. Please keep this in mind and go to the next paragraph.

When a person accepts JESUS CHRIST as LORD and SAVIOUR, the PROMISE of GOD for Eternal Life in Heaven is in full force and effect. Further, the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT is on the Heart of the Believer as a Pledge of the PROMISE OF GOD. No power in the Universe can break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND, no power in the universe can EVER cause GOD to lie or break a PROMISE. GOD'S PROMISES are always fulfilled PERFECTLY!

This_guy, in conclusion, SALVATION IS FOREVER! The medical or mental problems of man can't break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT on their heart. They are still children of GOD, and NO power in the universe can pluck them out of the MIGHTY HANDS OF JESUS! Far too many people believe that their own good works are what Saves them or keeps them Saved. This IS NOT TRUE! The BLOOD of JESUS on the CROSS is the Power of Salvation. JESUS CHRIST finished the work of Salvation PERFECTLY on the Cross. Believers should do good works out of a heart of appreciation for what JESUS has done for them, but good works have nothing to do with Salvation or keeping Salvation. The KEEPING OF SALVATION is the perfect and never-failing work of JESUS CHRIST! So, the believer who is facing a medical or mental crisis should have complete ASSURANCE they are held securely in the HANDS OF JESUS, even through physical death, and certainly into the Eternal Life in Heaven with JESUS that was PROMISED by GOD at the moment of Salvation. GOD NEVER FAILS, LIES, OR BREAKS PROMISES!

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 10:29-30 NASB  "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one."

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

2 Corinthians 3:2-3 NASB  You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Romans 8:37-39 NASB  But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Colossians 3:15-16 NASB  Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Logged

this_guy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2006, 09:29:55 AM »

Thank you all again for the help. Pastor Roger, I think now I see what was at least part of the problem. When I read "child of God" and "child of the devil" I was taking it literally in a way, that the devil and God have "sent" people to earth I guess. That it was impossible for a child of the devil to become a child of God because that person was not of God and because of that cannot be of God. I was thinking that the children of God were on earth as sinners and they needed to be found among the children of the devil and saved. This at least in part caused a misunderstanding.

So taking into consideration what I have done in my life, and the circumstances, and the fact that I have at some point in my life accepted Jesus, I may still be saved? It is a strange thought after all this time. I have spent much time doubting my salvation, and have been angry at God and said many things against him. I just hope you guys are right!

Thank you for the help once again!
Logged
nChrist
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 64256


May God Lead And Guide Us All


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2006, 12:19:59 PM »

Hello This_Guy,

Brother, there is something huge that must always be considered when studying the HOLY BIBLE:  Before or After the CROSS. JESUS CHRIST paid for our sins on the Cross with His Precious Blood.

Christians are supposed to feel bad and guilty when we sin, and that's why we don't enjoy or wallow in sin. That is the Holy Spirit of God working in our hearts. If we pray for forgiveness of our sins, they will be forgiven as if they never happened. This is part of a Christian's life if they want to please God and have a closer walk in the SPIRIT. Walking in the SPIRIT means that we will try to please GOD in everything that we do and say, and we will pray for forgiveness when we fail. This is part of our personal relationship and fellowship with JESUS, our Lord and Saviour. I'm thinking about the beautiful old hymn "Just A Closer Walk With Thee".

Love in Christ,
Tom

1 John 2:1-2 NASB  My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Logged

2nd Timothy
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2706


Resident Meese Master


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2006, 04:41:58 PM »

Psa 103:12  As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.



Jer 31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Logged

Tim

Enslaved in service to Christ
Sower
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 307


Romans 8:31-39


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2006, 12:41:26 AM »

Quote
I'm not sure if I'm a Christian or not for a few reason, one is my lack of understanding on HOW free will can exist.

Hello to everyone on this forum:

Before I say anything to This_Guy, I'm not "new" here but I have been unable to access this site over the last little while (probably for some technical glitch), and I also have not had a lot of time. I do post on Crosswalk under a different handle. Anyhow, I 'd like to thank Bro. Tom for his pm, and I recently got a note from ChristianUnite informing me about the upgrades and changes, so I thought I'd take another look. Well here I am and I do recognize some of the regulars.

Back to your concerns, This_Guy. You've already been given many Scriptures and much good advice. I would just like to add that "free will" is made out to be a much bigger issue than it is, because human beings are unable to grasp the greatness of our God. Therefore let me just make a few brief points to clarify your thinking:

1. God is absolutely sovereign in this universe, yet He created men and angels with the ability to make moral and spiritual choices. Some call this as being "free moral agents".  Proof?

If men and angels had not been free to choose between loving God and loving themselves or some other "idol", then neither Lucifer nor Adam could have sinned, and this world would have been sinless from the very beginning. Therefore "free will" is built into this world without in any way restricting or undermining God's absolute sovereignty.

2. Knowing that you are a Christian -- a child of God -- is not a matter of feeling, nor is it a matter of maintaining sinless perfection. It is a matter of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and on His finished work of redemption (on the Cross and through His resurrection). 

So the questions that you must ask yourself (regardless of how you "feel" or whether or not you might have sinned after you were saved) are these:

a. Do I believe without the shadow of a doubt that Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God and that today He is both Lord and Savior of all men, and especially of those that believe on Him (keeping in mind that Son of God = God)?

b. Do I believe without the shadow of a doubt that Christ died for all my personal sins, and rose again for my justification (to give me the gift of eternal life)?

c. Was there a moment in my life when I saw myself as a sinner, lost and on my way to Hell, and turned with all my heart to Christ, and away from all my sins and idols?  In other words, did I genuinely repent and receive Christ as my Lord and Savior?

If you have been born again as a result of this, you can know without the shadow of a doubt that you are saved. And God wants you to know this (1 Jn. 5:13,20).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2006, 12:51:33 AM by Sower » Logged

Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father, and Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Timothy 1:2
Jemidon2004
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 468


Just a sinner granted unmerited marvelous grace...


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2006, 03:38:52 AM »

Charming, just when I peek in, ya'll are discussing a favorite ice breaker of mine. Free will vs. free moral agency. Sorry, but I feel secure in knowing that it's nothing that I can do and it's completely of God's will that I do anything and that His Sovereignty reigns supreme. Just my two cents in on this whole deal. As those of you probably remember, I hold dear to my heart the doctrines of grace which I personally and systematically believe to be Biblical and accurate while still upholding the inerrancy of Scripture. Call me calvinist if you'd like...but there's my two cents. Ultimately God's will shall be done, and the Hiedelburg catechism nails it spot on..."The chief end of man is to glorify God" Time to head to bed considering I have a nice paper to write about the last big argument i had...plus i've been a little under the weather as of lately, a run to waffle house sounds great right now but meh...must resist the urge. Hopefully after things settle down here i'll get a chance to post more. I've been kicking butt and taking names at work, so i've earned myself a promotion along with praise from the director of our department, i've started my second semester of classes off to a great start and i have the greatest friends I've ever known...so that's what's new in my life at the moment. Talk to you all later. And please...those of you who are gonna blatantly disagree with me, that's fine, but don't make it an attack...we're way to quick sometimes to attack...just thought i'd add that in. Night! Dominus Vobiscum

Coram Deo,
Joshua

P.S.: Antinomianism is a bad thing when we get into the dealings of free will. Smiley
Logged


"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty" - John Calvin
GKB
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


MY GREATEST SEEK, IS TO KNOW JESUS MORE


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2006, 06:53:13 AM »

this guy,

welcome and god bless you!

the first thing i want to tell you is DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TAKE THE MEDICATION IF IT IS FOR A PSYCH ISSUE. IF YOU HAVE NOT YET STARTED, DON'T. IF YOU HAVE STARTED ALREADY, DEPENDING ON HOW LONG ITS BEEN SINCE YOU'VE STARTED YOU MIGHT NEED TO CONTINUE.

very quickly, do not try to understand god with science or worldly wisdom....he'll never let it work that way...trust him in faith and all things will become clear for you...the holy spirit will lead you and guide you into all truths.

the truth of the matter is in some ways you are right, you have been predestined before the foundations of the earth.

GODS WILL WE BE DONE IN YOUR LIFE IF YOU CHOSE HIM, BUT IF YOU CHOSE THE DEVIL, HIS PLAN FOR YOUR DEATH WILL BE DONE...

THERE ARE TWO ROADS ONE LEADS TO DEATH, ONE LEADS TO LIFE...THE TRAVEL IN BETWEEN EACH OF THEM IS ONE THING, BUT THE ROAD YOU TRAVEL ON IS YOUR CHOICE.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



More From ChristiansUnite...    About Us | Privacy Policy | | ChristiansUnite.com Site Map | Statement of Beliefs



Copyright © 1999-2019 ChristiansUnite.com. All rights reserved.
Please send your questions, comments, or bug reports to the

Powered by SMF 1.1 RC2 | SMF © 2001-2005, Lewis Media