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ollie
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« on: August 06, 2003, 06:52:06 PM »

The Bible does reveal that there was a successor to an apostle. It was not Peter that required a successor, but Judas. His successor was Matthias.
 The successor had to be one ordained, from the beginning of John's baptism to Christ's taken up into heaven, to be a witness with the other apostles of his resurrection.
 
  Acts 1:15.  And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
 16.  Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
 17.  For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
 18.  Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
 19.  And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
 20.  For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
 21.  Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
 22.  Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
 23.  And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
 24.  And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
 25.  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
 26.  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2003, 01:01:43 AM »

It's a shame you missed the fact that the drawing of lots was not good enough, and that Paul obviously took his place.  He did after all write 2/3's of the NT.
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2003, 03:57:40 AM »

It's a shame you missed the fact that the drawing of lots was not good enough, and that Paul obviously took his place.
Perhaps it's not so obvious after all, then.
Quote
He did after all write 2/3's of the NT.
Irelevant. If the amount of NT writings a person contributed is the measure of their apostleship, then that makes Luke a pretty significant apostle, and Andrew, Bartholomew, etc, get lost completely.
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2003, 04:21:23 AM »

Part 1 of 2

The Top Ten Reasons Why Paul CANNOT Be One Of The Twelve

Reason One: Paul is not in the list of men chosen in Matthew 10.

Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, …

Reason Two: Paul did not meet the requirements to be one of the twelve.

Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

He had to be one of the 12’s company – Paul was not.
He had to be there for ALL of the activity – Paul was absent from class!
He had to be with the 12 from the BEGINNING – Paul was not.
He had to be with the 12 until the SAME DAY of Christ’s ascension – Paul was not.
He MUST be ordained to be a witness WITH the 12 – Paul was not
Reason Three: When Judas by transgression fell God did not choose Paul to take his place.

Many, many preachers and others I have spoke with said that the 11 made a MISTAKE in choosing Matthias instead of Paul. Please note again what the bible says.

Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, show whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

God chose Matthias
He was numbered with the 11
You need to change your theology to match the word of God not vise versa.
Reason Four: Paul was not saved at the time.

It is not until Acts chapter 9 that you see Paul (who at that time was called Saul) get saved.

Reason Five: The Beginning (starting point) of Paul’s gospel is different than that of the twelve.

Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Phil 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.

It is overtly obvious that there are two beginnings here.
One is the earthly ministry of Christ to Israel
The other is the message of grace going to the Gentiles apart from Israel’s influence.
Reason Six: The content of Paul’s gospel and that of the twelve is different.

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ preached to the nation of Israel (see Mark reference above) contains content consistent with what the 12 preached, notice.

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

It is very clear to any form of logical thinking that these verse indicate the following
Water baptism was necessary to Israel FOR the REMISSION of sin
Repentance equals Israel changing their mind about who Christ said he was
Israel was to believe that Jesus Christ was Messiah
Peter preached exactly the same thing that John preached before the resurrection
Peter preached exactly the same thing that John preached after the resurrection
Paul was not sent to preach water baptism for the remission on sin, something Peter and the 11 could never under any circumstances say.

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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2003, 04:22:45 AM »

Part 2 of 2
The Top Ten Reasons Why Paul CANNOT Be One Of The Twelve


You need to change your theology not your bible!


Reason Seven: Paul did not get his information from the 12, had he been one of the twelve he would have got his information from them.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul certifies it because he knew some would not believe it.
The gospel which was preached of me is the issue of "my gospel" in Romans 16
It is NOT after man. It’s source its root is not in man, not any man.
He did not receive it from a man or men
Neither was he taught it by letter, fax or phone call.
He got his information directly from the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
Reason Eight: Peter and Paul agreed they had separate Apostleships.

Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

God accepteth no man's person – He used to! Under the kingdom program he had respect of persons with Israel. The only way a Gentile could get saved was through Israel – things have changed
added nothing to me – Why were they trying to? Because what Paul was preaching was different than what they were preaching.
But contrariwise – on the other hand!
when they saw – Saw what? What’s to see if they are saying the same thing? The point is they are not saying the same thing! What they saw was 2 gospels going out. One to the circumcision through the 12 and one to the Gentiles through Paul
For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles – No Comment – none needed
Reason Nine: Paul’s own testimony is indicative of his separate apostleship

Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

1 Tim 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Tim 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Reason Ten: The testimony of the risen, ascended Lord Jesus Christ

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Aha! I hear you say… see it says Israel there. Sure does! Here is the cross reference.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

The "them" in the above verse is Israel. Part of Paul’s ministry was to provoke Israel to jealousy. How? By saving the Gentiles apart from Israel.
But please notice the priority in the listing of the verse. It is Gentiles, kings and the children of Israel.
 

Acts 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me…. And …. Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

Get out of Jerusalem because I am sending you to the Gentiles!
For THEY will not RECEIVE THY TESTIMONY
What was Paul’s testimony that they would not receive?
Salvation with out the law
Salvation with out Israel
Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

And he said, I am Jesus – The sentence that took 2,000 years to complete.
In Exodus we read… Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

The message of grace is the capstone of divine revelation. It is in the dispensation of the grace of God that God finishes the sentence began in Exodus…. I AM JESUS WHOM THOU PERSECUTEST!

Now on we go verse 16.

for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose
1. to make thee a minister
2. and a witness
both of these things which
1. thou hast seen
2. and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you – Progressive Revelation! Paul did not get all his information at one sitting. No bible prophet ever did. The Lord Jesus Christ said he would give Paul information and then reveal more to him later.

from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee – The testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ is that he sent Paul to the Gentiles. Israel has been set aside, for a reason and a season. The reason? UNBELIEF (Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear). The season? The dispensation of the grace of God. (Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. )
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
This verse reflects the condition of the Gentiles and God’s plan to bring them salvation apart from fallen Israel
Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
 

And may I conclude by saying…. Neither should you!

Paul was not disobedient to Christ.

He preached the gospel of the grace of God

He preached rightly dividing the word of truth

Paul was not one of the 12!

He is the apostle to the Gentiles in the dispensation of the grace of God!!

By Pastor Doug Dodd
Posted By Brother Love Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2003, 01:45:30 PM »

GRRRRRREAT Message Brother Love, thanks for posting it. Grin
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2003, 08:36:07 PM »

Ollie-

You know very well that this isn't what the early church meant when it relied on apostolic succession.  You can deny it all you want, but history belies your contention.
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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2003, 04:10:38 AM »

GRRRRRREAT Message Brother Love, thanks for posting it. Grin

Yes, I really enjoyed this message. Thank you Brother

Brother Love Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2003, 01:07:47 AM »

Well,

Apostolic succession is satan's invention, which was introduced by rome,  for the purpose of  holding power over men.

An apostle is one sent on a mission, with a message, who has been authorized to act on behalf on the sender. Jesus disciple were first learners and then became apostles, taking the message of salvation (Lk 6:13, 9:10), Jesus himself an Apostle sent by God (Heb 3:1), chose the twelve to send out as Apostles, Barnabas and a few others were also called Apostles (Acts 1:26, 4:36, Acts 13:3)

I guess we disagree, on this one.

Jesus, himself chose Paul , note His own words when speaking to Ananaias in a vision, (Acts 9:15-16)  

Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

The Holy Spirit separated Barnabas and Paul, for the work He called them to, "So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost ,departed ...." (Acts 13:1-4)

Paul himself says, He was chosen personally and called out to be an Apostle by Jesus, (Rom 1:1) more precisely he identified himself as the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom 11:13)

He claimed apostleship, and it was sealed in those whom he brought to the Lord (1 Cor 9:1-2)

He claimed to be the least of the Apostles (1 Cor 15:9), ordained a preacher and an Apostle (1 Tim 2:7), and a teacher of the Gentiles (2 Tim 1:11)

The Apostles James, Peter, and John, recognized him (Paul) as an Apostle and, gave him and Barnabas "the right hands of felllowship" (Gal 2:7-9); Please note; Gal 1:19, this was not either one of the James's of the twelve, but it was the Lords Brother, he calls him an Apostle.



If Paul was not an Apostle, then he was a great liar, and Jesus never really chose him, at all.

How he was able to minister and labor for Jesus, after having the vision on the road to Damascus, even unto death then is a miracle; He said it was by the HIS grace bestowed upon him, by Jesus himself. (1 Cor 15:10)

But, thank God we have the scriptures which reveal to us the truth of the matter.

There is no reason to be confused about this one..bros.

Paul was a genuine Apostle, separated by God from his mothers womb who called him "when it pleased Him" (Gal 1:15) by The Lord on the road to Damascus, and served God; (He was even accepted among the others at the first council at Jerusalem, where he testified to what God had done thru him among the gentiles) faithfully all the days of his life.
 
I always, wondered what happened to Matthias, we never hear about him, again after winning the draw of the straws..

I read once (tradition, which don't mean much) that he became bishop at the church of jerusalem.

I still conisder him, to be an apostle chosen and commissioned by Jesus, to minister forth forth the Gosple of  grace.


God Bless,

Petro



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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2003, 09:53:15 AM »

As for;

Acts 1
21.  Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22.  Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.


Being one of the twelve did not require that the successor, should "have companied with us", this was there own take on this matter, since it is Jesus who does the choosing.

While it is true, a Christian must be one of us, it doesn't mean he must belong to the same visible church we belong to, but must belong to the body of Christ (the real church); and his own words will reveal whether he does or doesn't.

Paul was a witness to all these things, and was chosen and sent by Jesus.

What else is required to be a sent one.

It is enough for us, to know the others confirmed Paul to be an Apostle, (one of them), he claimed it, and his work testified by his own hand, written in the epistles, was accepted by the early church.

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2003, 08:26:03 PM »

It's a shame you missed the fact that the drawing of lots was not good enough, and that Paul obviously took his place.  He did after all write 2/3's of the NT.
Share this knowledge. Maybe all have missed it. Where is the book, chapter, and verse that says Paul took Judas' place as an apostle?  Act 1 says the lot fell to Matthias to be numbered with the 11 and take the number of apostles back to 12.
Does the percentage amount of authorship of the Bible really tell us that Paul took Judas' place? Is this not personal opinion?
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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2003, 08:37:38 PM »

Ollie-

You know very well that this isn't what the early church meant when it relied on apostolic succession.  You can deny it all you want, but history belies your contention.
To which early church are you refering? Deny what? Secular history? I donot deny the schisms and divisions and unrightly dividing the truth of the early churches when man in and of himself wanted to twist the truth and work for his own power agendas. Paul said it would happen and was starting even in his time.

Secular history is not of God!
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2003, 11:38:13 AM »

It should be noted also,That there were in Gods ordinances....12 apostles...NOT 1.

An apostles is NOT chosen by men but by God.
and DEMONSTRATES the LIFE,POWER and TEACHING of an APOSTLE.
nOT IN WORLDLY WISDOM as soem have made it seem.
nor in OUTWARD SHOW.
But in WORD and in POWER.
and the ANNOINTING of God which NO man can counterfeit nor SUPRESS by opposing it.
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2008, 06:40:18 PM »

Brother love , you have it dead on . I have all of C R Stams books and Stam was a close friend of Robert C  Brock and should you see any of his writting , they are good.
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