TONGUES - A SIGN

[Soldier4Christ]

thats not what i am saying, what i am saying is that only the spirit of god can know the things of  god. tongues are one of those things, however it is certainly not limited to tongues. tongues is not going to be everyones gift, and i understand the frustration that some have with an assembly of believers and every one of them speak in tongues every single sunday, however, whatever your gifts are i hope that they are used frequently, otherwise what is the purpose of your gift in the body? if you know god, you wouldn't denounce his gifts to your very limited understanding.

Amen. I'm glad we agree.

[GKB]

by the way, i have seen the gift of tongues do a mighty work in countless lives. so we can't say it is not needed. becausse you haven't seen it, i imagine it would be hard for you to understand where i'm coming from. just like before i knew jesus for myself, it was hard for me to imagine how close you could actually be to him. you need the holy spirit! without it you are none of his! do you need scripture or should i allow you to study to show yourself approved?

[Jemidon2004]

I have studied the Scriptures concerning the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 states it beautifully. The Holy Spirit is essential in the Believer's life as a means of conviction, and it is the way whereby God continues that workmanship that Paul speaks about in Philippians 1:6. Continuing it until the Day of Jesus Christ. I've been a believer for 4 full years and I've never seen the usage of tongues in a Biblical sense. I have witnessed what seemed to be the usages of tongues...however it was nothing but senseless babble. There was definately spirits in that place, but it wasn't of God, otherwise, I'd have been at peace with God's work. You see, it's common among believers to have a sense of familiarity with those who are fellow believers. Our spirit rejoices with another's spirit, and that was not felt when I witnessed these "tongues" Afterward I have spend since then countless hours studying the gift of tongues amongst other doctrine to see whether or not it is biblical. So I will state this: I'm studying to show myself approved...will the rest of you take that challenge? :-D You see, I like to challenge people and provoke thought, much like I was once and often still am. :-D God Bless.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

[GKB]

i'm not saying this is so, but i am just asking, what if the spirit that was not like gods was your own? if you were in an atmosphere where people were celebrating jesus, and you couldn't quite feel enough to shout to the lord, perhaps the problem wasn't the believers, perhaps the problem was the non-believer! god is not and will never be limited to your understanding of his power....because you do not believe does not mean its not true, it just means its not true for you. however, it may be the place you were in, maybe they were off, but i don't know because i wasn't there!

[Friarbob]

I have just finished reading all these posts about the tongues controversy.I was intially saved thru the ministry of a layman that was affiliated with a pentecostal church.  After I studied what the bible had to say about the operation of the gift of tongues, I came to the conclusion that most churches that practice tongues in their meetings do not follow the scriptural guidlines that  Paul gave in 1Corintians, chapter 14.  Are tongues still a valid gift in the church today?  my answer is I am not sure. But I do know this from personal observation, most, if not all tonhues I have seen practiced in public meetings are not following bibical guidelines.Today I am amember of a baptist church and not a charismatic churh

[GKB]

i'm going to say this, and than i am going to leave it alone. people are and have always been afraid of what they do not fully understand with their carnal minds. everything about about christ is not suppose to make sense to your carnal mind. i've seen the gift of tongues active, i've seen the gift of interpretation active. but i guess i witnessed these things because i'd rather believe jesus instead of people....yeah, i chose to lean not to my own understanding. but i realize when you begin to know and love the lord for real, you instantly become a minority. so in this life i do not expect many to agree with me, i just have to know what i know. i simplly know that my life has changed since this jesus that i've come in contact with entered in. i've tried all these "churches" none of which were able to change my life. so i'll just be crazy enough to stick with what works...even if you or for that matter i don't understand it! the holy spirit has done amazing things in my life and i will not write him off to conform to a person or people who would still rather believe what they can figure out. be warned to be careful that you do not mistakenly enter into blasphemy! a mans ways are right in his own eyes, but only the lord can weigh the spirits. so who are we to say the lords spirit doesn't exisist in any area? you are limited to your beliefs, not the lord.

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I have no idea how many threads we have on the forum about tongues, but I have heard many different beliefs about tongues for my entire life. There has been argument, jealousy, and strife over various gifts for 2,000 years. YES, the Apostle Paul addressed conflicts over gifts.

Brother GKB, I've never heard anyone say that agreement or disagreement with tongues was or could be associated with blasphemy. I'm certainly not aware of any Scripture that would indicate this, and the same would be true that having certain gifts or not having certain gifts was the difference between being lost or saved. I do know beyond any doubt that arguments over gifts have caused a lot of division and trouble for Christians over the last 2,000 years. I really think that many people are far to sensitive over gifts, and this is not an issue that should be allowed to cause division and trouble between Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Everyone in this discussion probably has somewhat different views of certain gifts, but those differences should not be a reason to break fellowship. In the days of the Apostle Paul, many people used real and/or false gifts for personal recognition that did not honor God. In effect, some of them were having righteousness contests with each other and used gifts in the contest. It caused trouble in the churches, and the Apostle Paul addressed it to restore peace. Some of the very things that caused trouble 2,000 years ago are still causing trouble today.

As an individual, I think that tongues were known languages used for sharing the Gospel of the Grace of GOD, but I won't argue or debate this. In my mind and opinion, I believe there are Scriptures that specifically address this, and some have already been mentioned. Again, I won't argue or debate these Scriptures, but I would like to make one comment that should always apply to all of us. If the Apostle Paul were involved in this thread, he would be making statements to make peace and keep peace between Brothers and Sisters in Christ. In fact, the Apostle Paul did just that in a conflict much like this over gifts. The Apostle Paul had one goal in his ministry that was more important than the others:  To make all men see.... The Unity Of the SPIRIT.... and the bond of PEACE. This was and is a beautiful TRUTH!

Christians were and are members of the same body, the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. Unity of the SPIRIT pertains to the Holy Spirit of GOD that we all share in our hearts. You will see many references to "being of one mind". Many would say this is impossible because of all the denominations and differences of man. Well, here's a NEWS FLASH for all of us - Christians are already united in the BODY OF CHRIST for eternity. The "bond of peace" dealt with how we should treat each other and what we should not allow to cause division and trouble among us. Obviously, any division or trouble we will have among us is while we are still alive in this short life on earth. There is no division or trouble between Brothers and Sisters who have already gone home to be with the LORD, and the same will be true for all of us one day.

Brothers and Sisters, I know beyond any doubt that there are ways for us to discuss differences in love if we are Christians. We've done it here many times, and it is a fascinating learning experience that leads to some really good Bible studies. On the other side of the coin, we've had many arguments and debates here that failed to do much except to make some folks mad and others have hurt feelings. The mix of people involved is always different, so I don't have a clue about what the secret formula is for having a pleasant discussion over differences that honors GOD. There are just too many variables, and the only answer seems to be to stop things when it gets out of hand.

I was just thinking about some outstanding discussions that involved serious Bible study, everyone learning something, and God being honored at the same time. BUT, I also remember the opposite kind where nearly everyone involved misbehaved, including one or more moderators. YES, that includes me, and I'm not proud of those times. Maybe the real answer is to learn when it is right to simply agree to disagree and stop. In other times, it is possible to have lengthy and great discussions between people who really want to study differing views. And, many don't involve a single problem. I think it really depends on everyone wanting to keep peace up front and everyone wanting to study views that are somewhat different from their own.

The bottom line is we should all try very hard to keep peace with other Brothers and Sisters in Christ. In the times when this appears to be impossible, maybe we should be the first to simply say, "We'll have to agree to disagree" and stop. This doesn't fit all circumstances, but it should fit most of them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 3:14-19 NASB  For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

[GKB]

BEP, i really do appreciate and agree with the majority of what you said, specifically as it relates to keeping the peace in a forum that is geared toward blessing and honoring god. if i appear to be angry, please note that i'm not. as a matter of fact i'm glad that you posted the previous post.

i am simply giving my stand point on the matter. not to affend, but to raise our level reception as it relates to the things of god.

let me explain why i said we must be careful that we are not tricked into blasphemy. 1 cor 12:8-11 reads For to one is given by the spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit; (9) to another faith by the same spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit; (10) to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) but all these worketh that one and the selfsame spirit, dividing to everyman severally as he will.

this scripture lets me know that for the sake of the  body of christ all of the spiritual gifts are at work. if we still have miracles, or discerning, etc... why not tongues? it is the same spirit that gives them all. how is the gifts of tongues outdated, and phrophecy not? there in the same scripture in the same book. now that spirit that gives them is the holy spirit. do we agree??? if so read on. if not you can stop here.

next i need to take you over to matt 12:31 and it reads wherefore i say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the holy ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (you can read as far as 12:32 if you like), and mark 3:29 reads but he that shall blaspheme against the holy ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

now let me take  you over to romans 8:26 likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: BUT THE SPIRIT ITSELF MAKETH INTERCESSION FOR US WITH GROANINGS WHICH CANNOT BE UTTERED (27) and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of god. so here we see the the spirit through groanings by the holy ghost making intercession for us in a language that is not for the nations to understand, but for the lord god only...agree? good, read on.

so the bible has given us to know that the spirit of god has given out the gift of tongues for the purpose of intercession, if i denounce the gifts of the spirit, do i mistakenly denounce the spirit that has the power to give these gifts? i know in our minds we'd like to tell ourselves no, but if i reject the works of the holy ghost, i reject the holy ghost....and i speak against its power. now heres the scriptures just in case anyone thinks that i am talking out the side of my head. i am not just teaching or talking what a religion taught me, i'm teaching what the bible teaches...this is not for the sake of disagreement but instead i'd like you to not limit the holy ghost or his power....this is why i said we may be slipping into blasphemy against the holy spirit. but bep, pastor roger, etc. you need not respond, if you can get anything from this, great if not, discard it. i will still love you all in the name of jesus. ( i mean that, i have really grown to appreciate you guys, but even if i haven't, i'd love you in jesus name.) you see the spirit can pray for some things that you and i can't...oh its real, the question is, is it or will it ever be real for you?

[nChrist]

Hello Brother GKB,

Yes, now I understand your line of thinking, and I will study the Scriptures that you presented. I many times DO feel led to sincerely study points of view that are different than mine. I will enjoy studying these Scriptures and try to keep an open mind.

Please do accept this blunt statement about GOD: I know beyond any doubt that HE is all powerful and can do anything HE wishes in heaven or on earth. I would never try to define or limit the power of Almighty God, and I would be the first to say that HIS ways are past finding out. The only limits I would put on GOD regard HIM being completely HOLY, PERFECT, UNABLE TO LIE, AND REPRESENT COMPLETE AND TOTAL RIGHTEOUSNESS.

If I think about limits, failures, or anything negative, my thoughts are always about men - NEVER GOD! My doubts are never in GOD, rather in men who claim to be doing things in the Name of GOD. I'm thinking about some outlandish things that I've seen some television preachers do and say. I'm not thinking about tongues, rather some things that nearly all Christians would consider to be outlandish. Now, we have the opposite side of that coin you were talking about. If a man or a woman knows they are doing something false in the Name of God, that man or woman would deserve the rebuke - NOT GOD. I MUST be honest and tell you that I've seen some things involving tongues that I thought were little more than stage shows for huge amounts of money. Let me repeat that I would be doubting the man or the woman - NEVER GOD.

I'm open to discuss this matter further, but only if everyone in the discussion wanted a proper and peaceful discussion between Brothers and Sisters in Christ. The debate area allows more than this, to include heated debate, but I don't feel led to do this any more. This is something that I've prayed about for a long time, and I feel led to reserve anything harsh and blunt for false teachers, the devil, and a lengthy list of things that we've already had here on the forum numerous times. We've had witches, warlocks, skinheads, nudists, muslims, and just about everything you can dream of here, and many came simply to mock God or destroy Christian fellowship. I gave you a very short list and didn't mention a lengthy list of false cults and religions who were determined to claim a pulpit here.

The types of problems I mentioned above have nothing to do with Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I really have seen many excellent discussions about differences that didn't need to be in the debate area. Many more people feel welcome to join this type of discussion. Brother, you are most welcome to start a discussion on tongues here or in the debate section. It is a matter that has been debated for almost 2,000 years. Just for me as an individual, I would join a mild discussion and try to avoid a hot one.

I only speak for myself. Others might enjoy a hot discussion, and that perfectly fine for anyone who wishes to join in. We already have several who have shown interest in this topic, so everyone please feel free to discuss however you wish. I would simply comment that it would really be nice if at the end all of the participants would enjoy having another discussion.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 4:7-8 NASB  "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.  "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

[Soldier4Christ]

GKB,

I agree that with you that if someone were to say that the Holy Spirit could not do things anymore would be blasphemy. To say that the Holy Spirit does not do them anymore, I would not necessarily consider it to be blasphemy. There is a fine line. However I personally do not think that would be true either. What I mean here is that I do believe that the Holy Spirit does still give this gift and does so as it suits the purpose of God.

I also believe that it is a danger for people to say that they have this gift when in truth they do not. This I do believe is happening with many people today. It is based on a desire to belong, to make other men think that they are a righteous individual. This is also taught against. There are those that say they are speaking in tongues that simply repeat the same unintelligible word over and over again but when it is interpreted it comes out as a very long statement without any repetitions.

False use of this gift can be as detrimental as it is to say that the Holy Spirit does not use it at all. It can lead people away from Him.



 

[Friarbob]

please accept my apology . I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest, All I was doing was showing what I had observed,  I was in no way implying that the spiritual gifts are not in operation today. I personally do  belive the spititual gifts are goimg to be in operation during rhe entire church age.  I repeat I am sorry that I sort of threw gasoline on the flame.

[Soldier4Christ]

Friarbob,

Not a problem, Brothers and Sisters in Christ must learn to get along and discuss differences without anger. This is just another lesson for us all to show that we can have differences and remain in love as Brothers and Sisters in Christ should have.

[DigitGen]

WOW and I was worried that things might be made a mess while I was gone at work but it has turned out quite well and an excelent read after a few days of meaningless work
blessed in his love and grace,
David Winn

[GKB]

BEP, Pastor roger, digitgen, and others:

i do not debate the things of god, because the things of god are not up for discussion as far as i am concerned. the only reason i indulge in some of these conversations is because i really view you all as brothers and sisters. I only want to share  with you what god has shared with me. there are many things that you all have shared with me that has blessed me tremendously, i pray the you all will receive what has the power to bless you tremendously. i do not argue the things of god, i share the things of god.

bep, i understand where you are coming from in reguards to men and women falsely imitating the things of god, and trust me, i am in total agreement (if you knew me in person you would know how true this is)...but i do not want the false people to discourage or limit the sons and daughters of god.

sometimes we are so careful not to become false that we cheat ourselves out of what is real...however, i understand. i hope no one is offended...and i pray that your further studies will bless you.

digitgen, "if" your purpose for striking this conversation was because you knew the truth and wanted others to know, well than job well done! hoipefully we will all continue to learn from each other as a body....bless you all. merry christmas and happy new year! TO GOD BE THE GLORY FOR THE THINGS HE HAS DONE!

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I was reading some Scriptures while reading the posts here. I was hit with some very simple thoughts that I feel led to share. They might or might not even pertain to our discussion.

As Christians, we have the Holy Spirit of God living in our hearts.

Every good thing comes from above!

Psalms 113:3 NASB  From the rising of the sun to its setting The name of the LORD is to be praised.

Philippians 3:20-21 NASB  For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;  who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

John 17:21-23 NASB  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 139:9-10 NASB  If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.