Should War in Iraq be Supported by Christians?

[Berean_Standards]

     In Vietnam it was "communism". In Iraq it's "terrorism". Neither of these "isms" is or was widely supported by the majority of the people in these countries, most of whom are/were poor and war-weary and just wanted to carry on with a normal, peaceful life.

     In Vietnam, my dad and countless young American kids fought against rice farmers wearing sandals. The VC could not secure combat boots, let alone mount an attack on the US. And the poor farmers could care less what type of government/market ruled in their few big cities- communist, capitalist, whatever- they just wanted US troops out just like they kicked the French out before them who made it obvious they were there for Colonialist and Imperialist goals. American politicians tried to spin it into some sort of fight to "spread freedom". Meanwhile all that was being spread were bombs, Hershey bars, and venereal diseases.

     In Iraq today thousands of American kids have died fighting a country that was already destroyed by Desert Storm. The ensuing embargoes placed on Iraq by the West and the deaths by diseases from radioactivity and other battlefield poisons took it's toll on the nation, leading to thousands if not millions of infant deaths, and deaths by starvation and poisoning. Meanwhile, the dictator, or whatever he was, was being vilified in the US media, as dictators in China and Nigeria were allowed to kill thousands of Christians, but who gives a rip about them. Those countries don't have oil. (Hey Iraq, it's okay, we'll give you Food for Oil.)

     There were no weapons of mass destruction- there are plenty of children dying of radiation poisoning and things like bombs and bullets, thanks to the US military under govt. orders. Meanwhile US contractors swoop into Iraq to make their dough, just like the pirates of old- the BONESMEN who took advantage of the poor, the weak, the war-weary in days gone by.

     So it's clear where I stand on this. I don't know about you guys, but if some foreign country came over here and started killing my friends and family and telling us they were going to start a government that was best for us and "spread freedom", I don't think I'd agree with that.

[Soldier4Christ]

So it's clear where I stand on this. I don't know about you guys, but if some foreign country came over here and started killing my friends and family and telling us they were going to start a government that was best for us and "spread freedom", I don't think I'd agree with that.

Then you had better start disagreeing and do it in a hurry because that is exactly what is being tried.

Nightdriving, You need to stop listening to the liberal media, start living in the daylight instead of the Night blindness. I was in Viet Nam and Desert Storm. I have many friends in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. When you say that the people of those countries don't/didn't want us there you have no idea of what you are talking about.

You are sounding like a Michael Moore parrot.

What you said in the other thread is showing to be very true .....  

And I don't know much about politics,

I am beginning to wonder what your true intent here is.

[Berean_Standards]

What is being tried? Who is taking over our Country?  People like the ACLU are taking over our country because the politicians are sending all ignorant and gullible Christians off to wars to fight some poor third worlders, while those still here are addicted to porn and divorcing at the same rates as unbelievers. God once told Israel "my people perish for lack of knowledge".

With all due respect in regards to these matters, don't tell me what to do, or what to listen to, or call me the parrot of some documentary film maker. You can actually refute my statements with facts if I'm wrong, and show me where I'm wrong without insulting me.

Are you going to tell me the majority of people in Vietnam wanted US soldiers there? Then why was there a war? My dad was in Vietnam, if they wanted him there why'd they try to blow his brains out? We're talking black pajama wearing VC here, who ate and slept in villages just like Iraqi "freedom fighters" are sleeping in the very towns occupied by US troops. So many Vietnam vets have protested and stated the obvious, and so many Desert Storm vets have died in the last decade as a result of mysterious illnesses and have not been helped by the VA. The rich oppress the poor, as James said, and war is no different- it's just another means of doing so. Who's dying in Iraq? It's not any rich Iraqi's, that's for sure.  Meanwhile, poor American kids, though completely spoiled by the world's standards, are dying and killing poor Iraquis, women and children alike.

The fact is I apparently know more about politics than most in the church, unfortunately. They are compelled by emotion and experience, but little knowledge or acceptance of reality, just like people in power want it- brainwashed by media. The church is actually going right along with the liberal agenda. You would allow Bonesman and rich elitists to tell us what to believe as far as war is concerned- all they have to do is say that they are Christian but not back it up, and throw around words like "freedom" and "peace" and "justice", things they never learned anything about while partying with strippers and snorting coke in their hidden mansions.

If I do have little knowledge, what is the answer for the things I've stated, the points I've made? Michael Moore may be a misguided liberal, but I know some of the few facts he has stated cannot be dismissed. He is pooh poohed away just because many Christians blindly accept Bush as a Christian, and so are against any call to accountability. All the conservative media does is say "we are spreading freedom" but where are the facts and information? The liberal media is then dismissed just because they are not Christian, when they actually may be stating some facts. So far I haven't seen any facts from either side of the media that would make me think this war is just. And information like Skull and Bones comes straight from Christian sources who have processed it from conspiracy nuts, but there is documented info nonetheless- more trustworthy than any liberal or conservative media opinions.

What is my "true intention"? How dare you even make that statement and make it seem like I have some sort of hidden agenda. This is a debate forum- that's what I'm doing, that's my intention. It's sad that I actually have to debate with fellow christians on the true nature of power and secret societies and worldly wars and oppression. This should have been learned from the bible.

I look to James and see what he says about power. Those of us who serve in the military or law enforcement may serve honourably, we may even KILL honourably in the course of our duty, but it doesn't mean our leaders have honourable agendas. I will pray for them as God commands, but I won't sit by and say killing and oppressing the weak is just, or the agendas my leaders serve are just.

I may not know much about politics, but unfortunately I apparently know more than the average Christian in America, and it all starts with the book of James in the word of God. (James 2:6-7, James 5:1-6.) The very nature of worldy power is corruption, which naturally results in oppression, that's why Satan is the god of this world and has the power to distribute authority as he sees fit, just as he offered that power to Jesus while tempting him. We may have to serve these people in power, but let's be truthful and just as Christians and call evil and oppression what it is.

On a side note, to give an example of the gullibility and lack of discernment in the church, I'd point to Prop 73 which is being voted on in my state of CA on Nov. 8. This Prop states that underage girls will have to notify parents 48 hours before getting an abortion. Ignorant Christians all over this state are pushing to support this Prop thinking it is a stepping stone to ban abortion, thinking it will prevent teens from killing babies if they legally need parental permission. What they are doing is actually condoning abortion! They are saying it is okay to have an abortion if there is parental consent!  Do you see the ridiculousness?! Please read about this subject- I may start another topic on this. The church is in trouble, this ignorance is a perfect example of it.

[LittlePilgrim]

Excuse me, NightDriving, but Pastor Roger is quite correct. Every one of your socalled 'facts' is parroted by the liberal media: CNN, CBS, ABC, etc. But most, if not all of them, have been falsified.

I don't need to do a major post here, since Pastor Roger summed up my feelings pretty well, however, let me point out that Oil for Food was a UN blunder, NOT merely a US blunder.

[Florida_Catholic]

When you start calling the mainstream media unreliable you are leading yourself into a tunnel of darkness with less and less light to find your way out.  Certainly the mainstream media has room for significant improvement, but if you suggest an alternative such as Fox News or Rush Limbaugh you have lied to yourself, and deep down you probably know it.

[Berean_Standards]

Please, PLEASE show me where I can find info on how these facts have been falsified. How many vets protested Vietnam, how many vets are poor kids and minorites as opposed to rich kids? How many Desert Storm vets died of mysterious illnesses in the last decade without significant help from the VA? How many Iraqis died of starvation since the embargoes in '91, how many died of battlefield chemical poisons? Tell me where the WMD's are? Who lied about that and why? You tell me what I said was FALSE?? Please show me how I am wrong then, I am only dealing with supposed facts and information here- you can change my mind if you can show what the actual truth is. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME THEN. It is practically your Biblical duty, otherwise you're just saying "nah, they are lies because it's the liberal media" and you don't give a rip about letting a brother believe supposed lies over here.

If the liberal media is showing nothing but lies, why can't the conservative media show some facts then? Why can't the conservative media even talk about WMD's or Iraqi women and children being killed, or US troops with their arms and legs blown off and getting sick and dying from vaccinations? You think we're setting Iraq free? Why'd we embargo them if we care so much? You tell me then LittlePilgrim and let me know the truth, what is the truth then? Are we killing evil Iraqis and liberating Iraq to have a democracy that becomes as decadent and perverted as ours and Bush is the Bonesman messenger of God?

Whew, it felt great to get that off my chest. Seriously, if things I said are wrong, facts etc.- they need to be corrected then. I do not watch or listen to or have anything to do with the liberal media (though I did see Fahrenheit 9/11). I listen to Christian media (KFAX 1100) and they are silent about this for the most part. The things I mention come from what I've heard over the years that appears documented.

[nChrist]

[Soldier4Christ]

NightDriving or Berean_Standards as I see you have changed your name to.

There were Vets that protested the Viet Nam war. They were the minority though not the majority. As I said I know these things first hand as I was there, I volunteered to go. I was in intelligence and saw much more of what went on behind the scenes than most as well as having seen things on the front line first hand. The majority of those that protested the war were not volunteers but draftees.

As for the VA not doing anything for Desert Storm Vets again you are wrong. I am one of those Vets and the VA is doing everything humanly possible to help me. I have contact with many such Desert Storm Vets daily that are in fact getting all the assistance that can possibly be given to them.

I really love it when people that have not been there try to tell someone that has that they don't know what they are talking about.

I will say it again all your points that you keep making are those of Michael Moore in his farenheit 911 garbage or the liberal media. Michael Moores "facts" are far from facts. They are made up garbage to make him more money.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen, brother.

[nChrist]

Pastor Roger Said:

I will say it again all your points that you keep making are those of Michael Moore in his farenheit 911 garbage or the liberal media. Michael Moores "facts" are far from facts. They are made up garbage to make him more money.

Brother,

Michael Moore has inspired me to do a documentary on the tooth fairy. I'll make more money since my production will contain more facts.  

[Soldier4Christ]

Pastor Roger Said:

I will say it again all your points that you keep making are those of Michael Moore in his farenheit 911 garbage or the liberal media. Michael Moores "facts" are far from facts. They are made up garbage to make him more money.

Brother,

Michael Moore has inspired me to do a documentary on the tooth fairy. I'll make more money since my production will contain more facts.  

LOL  .....   What I want to know is who left the door open to the LLL cage?

[Shammu]

Pastor Roger Said:

I will say it again all your points that you keep making are those of Michael Moore in his farenheit 911 garbage or the liberal media. Michael Moores "facts" are far from facts. They are made up garbage to make him more money.

Brother,

Michael Moore has inspired me to do a documentary on the tooth fairy. I'll make more money since my production will contain more facts.  

LOL  .....   What I want to know is who left the door open to the LLL cage?

Wasn't me, Ive been gone all day.  So it must have been one of y'all.

[Berean_Standards]

Ha ha ha

Yeah, you'll be laughing at the liberals when they're lunatic kids and anarchist legions are destroying our homes, cars and businesses like they're doing in Paris right now. That's when you'll want guns, my friends. But by then we'll have let the liberals take away our second ammendment rights, so you won't even have guns to protect yourselves with.

Yeah, really, why am I even getting concerned over this? This is a nation that allows abortion and is about to allow gay marriage. How could I expect my fellow Christians to see past their own emotions and experiences to see the truth? For the next Katrina they may as well just hand out 666 stamps instead of debit cards. Everyone will jump in.

Let's all have a party and buy the "Purpose Driven Life" woo hooo!!!!!

[Berean_Standards]

This is from the Christian site xxxxxxxx.com. It is awesome:

ADVERTISING LINK REMOVED

It's called "xxx xx x xxxxx" It's why I think the way I do. If it's wrong, if it's Michael Moore "LLL" baloney, go ahead and show me.

[cris]

Ha ha ha

Yeah, you'll be laughing at the liberals when they're lunatic kids and anarchist legions are destroying our homes, cars and businesses like they're doing in Paris right now. That's when you'll want guns, my friends. But by then we'll have let the liberals take away our second ammendment rights, so you won't even have guns to protect yourselves with.

Yeah, really, why am I even getting concerned over this? This is a nation that allows abortion and is about to allow gay marriage. How could I expect my fellow Christians to see past their own emotions and experiences to see the truth? For the next Katrina they may as well just hand out 666 stamps instead of debit cards. Everyone will jump in.

Let's all have a party and buy the "Purpose Driven Life" woo hooo!!!!!

I could be wrong, but I'm smelling a type of metal.  

Anyone else?