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Author Topic: IS YOUR BIBLE THE RIGHT ONE?  (Read 26461 times)
Marv
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« Reply #180 on: December 16, 2004, 04:12:16 PM »

Melody,

The very act of translation changes the word.  How can I say the particular English word is directly inspired by God to be infallible, inerrant.... especially true for those words added by the translators to make the English grammar and sentence work better.

The originals are indeed word for word perfect.  Even if we had them, could you or I sit down and read them and perfectly understand everything?  Doubtful that our scholarship would be so good that we could understand those languages so well that we would get it perfect, but that doesn't mean the Word isn't perfect, only that our understanding would not be perfect.  Even if we read in English our understanding is slightly different.

With the process of transmission of the scriptures, can we say that we have a perfect reproduction of the originals?  No, probably not, though it may be, we cannot be absolutely sure until we find the originals and recognize them.  We do the best we can with what we have.  However, we are very very sure that we are very very close.  The things that we are least sure of are not matters of doctrine or faith, of those we are indeed very sure because they are repeated in different places and with different words, and the witnesses are in such good agreement.  What we are least sure of is numbers.  Numbers are very hard to copy correctly over and over.  Here's a number 300098873333333348876, I'll be back in a few thousand years to see if you have it correctly copied Smiley  It is difficult especially because of the repeated numbers and the fact that no commas are used.  Remove or add a digit and it doesn't become obviously wrong like many (though not all) words.  This is very much like some of the ancient numbers.  Thirty for instance would very much be tententen so it is easy for a scribe to miss a ten or add it and hard to catch it when proofed.

Now the scriptures are held in such esteem that very few take the freedom to change the text just based on what we think should be correct.  Take this example:
In the KJV:  We have the "problem" of the how old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:Cool.
(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9).
That was what the evidence the translators had at the time said.  Rather than pick the more likely eighteen, they let it stand as they had it, until scholarship and finding new witnesses could truly resolve the issue.  We could sit down and make a translation that eliminated those things, but would it be right to do so?  We will know in time, and they don't really affect us anyway.

The NET Bible now shows eighteen for both with this footnote:
tc The Hebrew text reads “eight,” but some ancient textual witnesses, as well as the parallel text in 2 Kgs 24:8, have “eighteen.”

NIV uses eighteen for both with this footnote: 2Ch_36:9 One Hebrew manuscript, some Septuagint manuscripts and Syriac (see also 2Ki_24:Cool most Hebrew manuscripts eight
The NKJV leaves it at eight but has the same footnote as the NIV.  So they are agreeing on the evidence but haven't all agreed that the evidence is sufficient.

Manuscripts are in agreement in the eighteen in 2 Kgs.  

So we are really pretty sure that Jehoiachin was 18 when he began his rein, but we are really really sure a King, Jehoiachin existed and ruled.

We get even more sure in matters like Jesus was true God, and true man.  That there is but one God in the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  That Jesus died for our sins and was raised again physically, and so on.

We know those things to the extent that it could not be called a reasonable doubt to question their truth, it would have to be called an unreasonable doubt, and it doesn't matter which sincere translation you would use in order to make that statement.

There is very little doubt indeed from what we know today concerning what God's message is to us.  As such it is much more than a guideline document, but rather it really is reasonable to follow what we have as scripture itself.  To consider it the very Word of God.  To not do so means we will miss the mark by much more than if we do.  Noone gets more truth by ignoring the whole Bible due to some little copyist error on the age of Jehoiachin , only less truth.  Nothing available is closer to God's absolutely pure Word than the Bible we have.  By that I don't mean one translation, but the whole knowledge we have as to what God said.  Each translation has a few little weaknesses, but that's no excuse to throw any or all away as untrustworthy.  Or to neglect their study.

Marv

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Melody
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« Reply #181 on: December 16, 2004, 04:22:05 PM »

Marv,
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question so thoroughly.  Excellent explanation.  I'm reading your post and saying to myself, "Duh."  This was obviously one of those occasions when I couldn't see the trees for the mountain.

I've always believed the Bible to be the word of God but had problems with the "inerrant and infallible" part because I was equating that with the translation having to be the exact word for word of the original.  Apparently one of my blond moments.
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Marv
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« Reply #182 on: December 16, 2004, 04:28:55 PM »

It is my honor to have been a help.  May God bless you abundantly.

Marv
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Brother Love
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« Reply #183 on: December 18, 2004, 07:15:59 PM »

THE KING JAMES BIBLE

The preserved inerrant word of God has always existed, still exists, and is identified today as the received text of the historic protestant reformation process. The translation of the received text into the English language has produced the inerrant, infallible word of God in English. Though a multitude of English Bible translations exist at the present time, only the King James Version is translated from the received text. The King James Version is identified as the inerrant, infallible, preserved word of God in the English language.
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Marv
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« Reply #184 on: December 20, 2004, 12:07:04 PM »

Didn't mean to steal your thread Brother Love, my apologies.

You might be interested that I am working on typing in the 1611 "he" KJV into e-Sword.  It's still going to be awhile before its done though.  What I find online as the 1611 KJV isn't true to the actual text.  

The general idea is to provide an easy to use interface with a dictionary and word helps for those that want to study from the original KJV.

Those "s"s are enough to drive me batty!

Marv
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Brother Love
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« Reply #185 on: December 20, 2004, 12:13:03 PM »

Didn't mean to steal your thread Brother Love, my apologies.

You might be interested that I am working on typing in the 1611 "he" KJV into e-Sword.  It's still going to be awhile before its done though.  What I find online as the 1611 KJV isn't true to the actual text.  

The general idea is to provide an easy to use interface with a dictionary and word helps for those that want to study from the original KJV.

Those "s"s are enough to drive me batty!

Marv

No problem Marv, you may feel free to share at anytime.
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THINGS THAT DIFFER By C.R. Stam
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http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html

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« Reply #186 on: December 30, 2004, 12:34:24 AM »

Is the 21st Century KJV OK?

asaph

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« Reply #187 on: January 21, 2005, 01:20:07 PM »

Which ONE?   How many people who love to study scripture just have one Bible?  I think last count my husband and I have about eight different Bibles in our home and some on the computer.  I love to compare the different translations and sometimes even look up the words one by one in Strong's concordance is to see the original Hebrew or Greek word.  I suppose I should try to learn to read Hebrew and Greek.  

Another question might be what is your favorite translation of the Bible and why do you like it?  We still need to Holy Spirit to teach us.  
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Melody
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« Reply #188 on: January 21, 2005, 01:41:16 PM »

Which ONE?   How many people who love to study scripture just have one Bible?  I think last count my husband and I have about eight different Bibles in our home and some on the computer.  I love to compare the different translations and sometimes even look up the words one by one in Strong's concordance is to see the original Hebrew or Greek word.  I suppose I should try to learn to read Hebrew and Greek.  

Another question might be what is your favorite translation of the Bible and why do you like it?  We still need to Holy Spirit to teach us.  

I use the KJV a lot but I also like my NIV "Life Application" Bible when I'm not sure what it's saying.
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Mathurin
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« Reply #189 on: February 22, 2005, 05:14:40 PM »

THE KING JAMES BIBLE

The preserved inerrant word of God has always existed, still exists, and is identified today as the received text of the historic protestant reformation process. The translation of the received text into the English language has produced the inerrant, infallible word of God in English. Though a multitude of English Bible translations exist at the present time, only the King James Version is translated from the received text. The King James Version is identified as the inerrant, infallible, preserved word of God in the English language.
That wasn't a very love-filled post, brother.   I think it is incorrigible to suggest such a thing when even the authors clearly  said it was not so, I do not think that they would consider your statement a compliment.   I like the KJV but it wasn't taken from  the best  text.  The Latin version by Jerome  was taken from many different texts most of which are no longer available today and he knew the languages perfectly.  So that's the one I vote for.  
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nChrist
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« Reply #190 on: February 23, 2005, 12:19:06 AM »

Quote
Mathurin Said:

That wasn't a very love-filled post, brother.  I think it is incorrigible to suggest such a thing when even the authors clearly  said it was not so, I do not think that they would consider your statement a compliment.  I like the KJV but it wasn't taken from  the best  text.  The Latin version by Jerome  was taken from many different texts most of which are no longer available today and he knew the languages perfectly.  So that's the one I vote for.

Mathurin,

After reading some of your other posts, I would be very curious which Bible you are talking about. You've already stated that you believe one gets to heaven by doing good deeds and belief in Jesus Christ is just a bonus. Does the Bible you use hint at such a doctrine? If so, you need to throw it away and get a real Bible to study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
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« Reply #191 on: February 23, 2005, 07:48:03 AM »

Those aren't  my  beliefs, just a computer error.  I generally read at least the language from two different versions if it is an important or confusing passage.  So,  I guess I can't say exactly which one I use, I do like to use the KJV because it is what others use so if I am going to witness to someone it will be in familiar terms for them.  As far as accuracy goes I think that the English translation of Jeromes Latin Bible is probably the most accurate because of when it was written, the resources he had to use, his mastery of the languages involved, and he lived a good life in the service of Christ.
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #192 on: February 23, 2005, 11:45:49 AM »

Those aren't  my  beliefs, just a computer error.  I generally read at least the language from two different versions if it is an important or confusing passage.  So,  I guess I can't say exactly which one I use, I do like to use the KJV because it is what others use so if I am going to witness to someone it will be in familiar terms for them.  As far as accuracy goes I think that the English translation of Jeromes Latin Bible is probably the most accurate because of when it was written, the resources he had to use, his mastery of the languages involved, and he lived a good life in the service of Christ.

I thought the same thing as Blackeyedpeas when I read your previous post on the other thread, but I see now that you were trying to quote Sleeker (who by the way is not with us anymore).

There is a little box in each persons post in the upper right hand corner of that post that says "quote" in the box. Clicking on that will quote the entire persons post.

Or if you click on reply as you did then you can look at the "Add YABBC tags". Under that there is a button with a picture of a "page with an arrow". Clicking on it will give you the "quotes" function and you can cut and paste portions of a post into it.

Try those for starters I am sure it will reduce the confusion.

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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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« Reply #193 on: February 23, 2005, 05:17:48 PM »

Mathurin,

I did misunderstand your post. Please accept my apology.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
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Mathurin
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« Reply #194 on: February 23, 2005, 07:11:42 PM »

Hey no problem, it was understandable.  Thanks for the info, Roger.
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