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youandme4ever81
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« on: July 21, 2003, 01:46:18 PM »

1) The Bible testifies to the fact the Jesus was known
among the Jews; he used to preach and deliver sermons in
the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. Furthermore, The
Bible told us that the Jews knew Jesus in person and they
used to ask him many questions even concerning the Torah:

"Master, What commandment is the first of all" (Mark, 12:28)

"Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act." (John, 8:4)

"Master, must we pay tribute to Ceaser or not" (Matthew, 22:17)

and the question is : Why they hired  Judas to direct them to Jesus?

2)The Christians believe that Jesus wanted to die on the Cross for the redemption of mankind and for the forgiveness of their sins. If so, then Why did he ask to run away that cup from him (i.e death)? And why did he cry out while on the cross : "O Lord, Why hast thou forsaken me?"

3)Jesus had prayed to the loving Father in heaven for help with strong crying and tears:
         "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly:
          and his sweat was as it were great drops of    
          blood falling down to the ground"
(Luke 22:44)

Was the prayer of Jesus (PBUH) being answered?

4) Why did Mary Magdelene go to the tomb? we are told in the Gospel of Mark that she went there to Anoint Jesus:
          "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene,  
           and Mary the mother of James, and   Salome, had
           bought sweet spices, that they might come and
           anoint him"    
(Mark 16:1)

The Hebrew word for anoint is "masaha" which means to rub
, to massage, to anoint. The question arise: DO Jews massage dead bodies after 3 days ? DO the Christians  massage dead bodies after 3 days ?

5) we are told in the Gospels that Mary Magdelene thought
him (Jesus) the gardener in the resurrected story. Why should she suppose that he is a gardener? DO resurrected persons look like gardeners?
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Mohamed
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2003, 02:09:03 AM »

What does this mean ...."Jesus (PBUH)....... ?

Can you tell me who Mohammand is? What relationship does he have to Jesus, or anyone in the Holy Bible?

Why do you worship Alluh, is that the same as Jesus?

Why do you beat you wives?

Why aren't women allowed to show there faces own prorperty, or get an education?

Do you pick your nose in public? Tongue

The questions you ask here would be good questions for anyone who really cared. I posted several times on another thread and you failed to answer there. Anybody who really wants to get to know Jesus needs to ask questions, but since you don't care to have a relationship with Jesus this is a ruse.
  You are a muslim on a Christian board, I think we could learn from each other, but you have to have manners first. Are you serious in your questions? I think not, do you really want answers to understand or make fun of? Do you really want to know what the bible means or says? NO. So if you would stop being hard to get along with and answer on the other thread, and stop making fun of my Savior I will answer your questions. Until then as the scritpures says. Stay away from those who live a  life of sin, and have nothing to do with them.  (my paraphrase)

Ps the thread I am referring to is "GOD in the Bible will take His Kingdom from the Jews and give it to the Muslims"
« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 02:14:42 AM by musicllover » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2003, 03:14:31 AM »

Greetings "youandmeforever81"

Wow! Your username is really unique. Does it have some special meaning? I am intrigued.  Smiley .

You have some questions that people have been asking for quite some time. I hope I am able to enlighten you a bit, since Christianity is not your chosen faith. It is good to ask questions when one desires to grow in knowledge. Are you asking because you wish to grow in knowledge or do you believe these questions somehow reveal Jesus to be less than what we Christians believe?

Well, in any case, I shall try to answer the questions you put forth. I also have a few questions for you. Who is your Savior and how are you saved? Do you know you are saved and can you loose what salvation you have? What happens to you after you die and what do you look forward to in eternity?

Your first question: Why did they (the Pharisees and priests) hire Judas to lead them to Jesus? It is my understanding that Judas went to them and offered his services (Mark 14:10-11). They were not planning to kill Jesus until after the Passover Feast (Matthew 26:4-5), but when Judas came to them, they changed their plans to make the most of the unexpected opportunity. Since they did not know where Jesus was staying during the night, they needed someone who was privy to such knowledge to lead them so they could take Him privately. Jesus was popular, so they had to act swiftly and under the cover of night.

Your second question is really two questions in one. The first part is this: Since Christians believe that Jesus wanted to die on the cross for the redemption of mankind and the forgiveness of their sins, why did He ask to run away and for God to take the cup from Him? Your question is worded a little differently, but I believe that this is the sense of it. If I am wrong don't hesitate to correct me.

You have a great misunderstanding of the character of Jesus. This is certainly understandable since you are not one of His followers. Nevertheless, I have to admit that many of His followers stumble at this question. Many believe that Jesus was trying to get out of a tight spot here. This of course is not so. Let me explain.

For your implication to be true, there would be a great many contradictory events surrounding Jesus' agony in Gethsemane. For example, at the Passover meal Jesus said that He looked forward to the Passover meal He would eat with His disciples just before He would die. He even sang hymns and prepared the disciples for the days without Him. Does this sound like someone trying to escape what was about to happen? For a year Jesus had been teaching the disciples that He would die the death of crucifixion. If He was truly asking the Father to take that cup from Him, He was praying that His Father would make Him a false prophet. This would definitely not be according to the will of God, yet Jesus said that God always heard His prayers (John 11:41-42). We know from Scripture that God hears only those prayers that are according to His will (1John 5:14). Therefore, if the Father always hears Jesus, then Jesus never asks anything that is not according to the will of God. You see why your understanding of this Scripture (Matthew 26:39) cannot be correct? You are assuming you know what Jesus was praying for. You are assuming that the "cup" He asked to be removed was His dying on the cross. Herein lay your error. Nevertheless, I can understand why you think this way, because you have not been taught by His Spirit. What I do not understand is how so many who claim to be Christian would think that their Savior was acting the coward and seeking a way out.

The book of Luke is a great Gospel account. It begins with prayer in the Temple and ends with prayer in the Temple. Many of Jesus' prayers are recorded there. Each time Jesus prayed something significant happened. For example it was immediately after Jesus was speaking with the Father that Peter told Jesus he believe He was the Christ (Luke 9:18-20). Jesus said that this was significant in that Peter's answer was evidence that he was listening to the voice of God in his heart (Matthew 16:16-17). This is important to realize, if you are going to understand what Jesus was praying for in Luke 22:41-42. Why did Jesus keep going back to the three disciples, Peter, James and John, when He prayed for the cup to be removed? What was Jesus looking for when He kept coming to them?

Something happened between their leaving the upper room and their arrival on the Mount of Olives. Notice that Jesus says that He was extremely sorrowful (Matthew 26:38) and desired that the three would "watch" with Him. Scripture says that God laid the sins of all mankind upon Jesus (Isaiah 53:4-6). Sin hides God's face from us and when we sin often we do not have the sense of God's presence (Isaiah 59:2). This is what happened to Jesus. God laid our sins upon Jesus and for the first time Jesus felt alone. He had no sense of the Father's presence. Of course, He knew that the Father didn't leave Him, but sense of His Father's presence was lost because of our sins that were laid upon Him. This is what Jesus was asking when He asked for the cup to be removed. He longed for the sense of His Father's presence. He prayed for it to be restored and kept going to the three He asked to pray with Him looking for God to speak through them. When they kept giving in to the flesh and dozing off, the Father finally answered Jesus' prayer though an angel (Luke 22:43). The presence of the angel strengthened Jesus, because He was able to see the presence of the Father in the appearance of the angel. God always answered the prayers of Jesus (John 11:42). Not one of His words ever fell to the ground.

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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2003, 03:23:20 AM »

To "youandmeforever81" cont'd
I thought I'd break up this long post in an effort to make it easier to read.

I shall now try to answer the second part of question 2, why did Jesus pray saying "why have you forsaken me?" This, too, is a common error of many of my brethren who claim Christ as their Savior. Too many believe Christ was weak and almost gave up. How anyone could read the life of Christ recorded in the four Gospel accounts and believe such trash I'll never know. Of course, you have an excuse. You don't claim Jesus as your Savior. I am speaking here of my own brethren. Jesus hung on the cross from 9AM until nearly 6PM. We know He was alive at least until 3PM which is the time of the Evening Sacrifice. At the time of the killing of the Passover lamb (a ram's horn was blown at the Temple just as the priest was killing the lamb) Christ yelled out "It is Finished!" and then said to the Father "Father, into your hands, I commit my Spirit." He bowed His head and died.

All morning and into the afternoon He was being accused of lying, that God was not His Father. The priests wagged their heads, saying to one another, "Let God save Him, if He would have Him." They said many blasphemous things to Him, but He said nothing. Then around 3 PM, just prior to the slaying of the Passover Lamb, Jesus repeated the words of Psalm 22. It begins: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Have you ever read Psalm 22? It speaks of one suffering and dying, but the psalmist looks for a resurrection. Often the psalms were prayers. Men often begin to pray in despair, but in the presence of God they are encouraged, and by the end of the prayer they have new hope. The Psalms were also hymns. They were prayers that were sung to God. Jesus was singing a hymn to His Father expressing His trust in Him that He would be raised from the dead. This doesn't sound like Jesus was despairing, does it? Too often we read our own words into what the Bible says. We need to let the Bible, which professes to be the Word of God, to speak for itself. Just before Jesus died on the cross, He was singing a Psalm of faith to God. This particular Psalm would also answer all His accusers, because all day they had been taunting Him saying that God had indeed forsaken Him. The Priests knew the Scriptures and some would realize what He was doing. In essence, He was repeating what He said from the very beginning of His ministry. They asked for a sign, and He repeated over and over that no sign would be given except for the Sign of Jonah. Just as he was three days and three nights in the belly of a fish, Christ would be buried for three days and nights and rise again. This Psalm testifies of Christ trust in God to raise Him, just as Jesus had claimed He would from the very beginning.

Your third question concerned whether Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane was answered. It was, just as I said in question 2a above.

Your fourth question concerned Mary Magdalene "massaging" Jesus' dead body. I believe you are missing the point here. The word is "anoint." Why you bring in your own word here I don't know. The word used in the text is "aleipho" and means "to anoint." In answer to you question concerning three days, it is not normal for Jews to clean, dress and anoint a body after it has been dead for three days. Nevertheless, the Roman guard prevented anyone from breaking the seal on the tomb until the three days and three nights were complete. The women had to wait until they were allowed to handle the body of their Savior. The fact that Jesus was in another man's grave testifies to the idea that they intended to move Him when they were allowed.

Your fifth question concerns why Mary thought the resurrected Jesus was a gardener, and you asked if resurrected people look like gardeners. I don't know - what does a gardener look like? I like to garden and so does my wife, yet we do not look at all alike. Is a gardener supposed to look a certain way? I usually wear a hat  while I garden to keep the sun off my bald head. Are you implying that Jesus was wearing a hat? I am not certain about the implication of your question or if, in fact, you are serious or delight yourself in making fun of the sound of the Scriptures. If you are serious, please be a little more plain.

Thank you for your questions. I hope you will now answer mine.

Peace,

John1one
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2003, 04:27:46 AM »

You, are a very patient man John1one.   Smiley  I just wanted to share with you another perspective on why Judas brought them to Jesus.  Granted, I believe you're right concerning the timing issue.  He knew where Jesus was staying!  But also, consider that there was a "band of soldiers" brought along:

Quote
When Jesus had spoken these words, he went out with his disciples across the Kidron Valley, where there was a garden, which he and his disciples entered. Now Judas, who betrayed him, also knew the place, for Jesus often met there with his disciples. So Judas, having procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons. Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" They answered him, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus said to them, "I am he."Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them.

John 18:1-5

The word "band" in the greek is speira, which was considered a tenth of a legion - that is, 600 men!  That military cohort undoubtably had heard of Jesus, but would have come from elsewhere, and may not have seen Him.  Why so many?  The priests and pharisees were afraid to take Him during the Passover as there may have been an uprising from the people.  Jesus was, at that point, still very popular, and a folk hero to them.  He challenged those whom they had wanted to for quite some time!  Here's another neat part of that passage...

Quote
When Jesus said to them, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Uniquely, the word "he" is not found in the original greek text.  Christ's response was "I AM."  God very God spoke, and 600 plus men fell to the ground!  While youandme4ever may disregard the God-Man, Jesus Christ the Son of God, He is still "I AM."

Thank you for your post John1one!
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John1one
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2003, 10:50:19 AM »

Greetings Allinall,
He is my all in all as well.  Smiley  It is good to speak with a brother in Christ. I have not posted here in a number of weeks. Thank you for your post.

I never really considered the number of men that came to seize Jesus, but your post caused me to search my Bible helps. Here is what I found in Adam Clark:

Quote
A band - spira, The band or troop. Some think that the spira was the same as the Roman cohort, and was the tenth part of a legion, which consisted sometimes of 4200, and sometimes of 5000 foot. But Raphelius, on Mat_27:27, has clearly proved, from Polybius, that the spira was no more than a tenth of the fourth part of a legion. And as the number of the legion was uncertain, and their divisions not at all equal, no person can tell how many the band or spira contained. See many curious particulars in Raphelius on this point, vol. i. p. 351, edit. 1747. This band was probably those Roman soldiers given by the governor for the defense of the temple; and the officers were those who belonged to the Sanhedrin.
With lanterns and torches - With these they had intended to search the corners and caverns, provided Christ had hidden himself; for they could not have needed them for any other purpose, it being now the fourteenth day of the moon's age, in the month Nisan, and consequently she appeared full and bright. The weapons mentioned here were probably no other than clubs, staves, and instruments of that kind, as we may gather from Mat_26:55; Mar_14:48; Luk_22:52. The swords mentioned by the other evangelists were probably those of the Roman soldiers; the clubs and staves belonged to the chief priest's officers.

Gill makes reference to at least 500 men and perhaps 1000 men, but I agree with Clark that no one can tell how many really came. We can be assured it was a significant number, enough to impress others with fear and to stay away.

Concerning your thoughts about the men falling back, I agree that something happened here but I cannot at this point prove what you say. This very thing has been argued by others in discussion groups, but those who oppose your idea are quick to point out other Scripture where "I am" is used but cannot refer to Jesus being God. I have spent a great deal of time taking the position that Jesus is God and arguing that point, but I like to use Scripture that my opponents have trouble refuting. This Scripture in John 18 is interesting. I keep going back to it, but I need something else to go along with it before I can agree 100% with you that that is what it means. To be sure "something" happened. I would like to say Jesus was saying "I AM" in the sense that He is God, but at this point I hold back and wait for God to add to it.

Concerning Judas, this is one of my favorite topics in recent months. Why do you suppose he betrayed Jesus? Why was he stealing from the fund (John 12:6)? Why didn't the others detect that he was a thief? He certainly didn't steal to buy the most stylish Sabbath clothes. He couldn't have been keeping a woman. These things would be too obvious and could not be hidden. He was not stealing to give to the poor (John 12:5), for Christ would have agreed to give all if this was Judas' heart. Why did he steal? Who or what was he supporting?

Of course I could be wrong but I do have an idea. The women who followed Jesus supported him from their substance (Luke 8:1-3). It can be shown the twelve were divided into three groups who probably had differing responsibilities. Judas and his group carried the money. Of course Jesus knew what Judas was doing, but it missed the attention of the rest. It is said that Judas was Simon's son (John 6:71; 13:6). This is revealed in a "matter of fact" manner, giving the impression that we should know who Simon is. There are only a few men named Simon recorded in the Gospels, only one has a possible connection with Judas. That would be Simon the Zealot. If you look at the three places where the twelve apostles are named, you will find that they are mentioned in only slightly varying order. Peter is always first; Philip is always mentioned fifth, and James (the less) is always mentioned ninth. The others vary within their little group but they never go from group to group. I believe that Jesus was teaching the apostles about "Body-life" like Paul mentions in Romans 12 and 1Corinthians 12. Each group had their specific responsibilities. Moreover, Jesus seemed to keep families within the same little group. For example Peter and Andrew were brother and so were James and John. James (the less) and I believe Jude Thaddeus were brothers and so on. Therefore, I believe that the Simon who was the father of Judas was Simon the Zealot.

If this is so, Judas being young and idealistic, may very well have been a Zealot as well. He may have been following in his father's steps. Judas could have been supporting the political efforts of the Zealot movement. I think that Judas thought he could manipulate Jesus and perhaps events surrounding His life. I also believe that somehow one or two of the women found out that Judas was stealing. I think this is why Mary anointed Jesus feet in John 12 and then later his head in Mark 14. She poured very expensive ointment upon Him. Judas was beside himself greedy for the money that he could have had if it were sold. It wasn't until Jesus was anointed the second time that he decided to betray Jesus. I think he realized that the gig was up and it would not be long before all would know that he was stealing to support the Zealots.

The idea of betrayal was another way to support his political aspirations. John the Baptist was held in prison for two years before he was beheaded. There was no reason to suspect that Jesus would be immediately killed. I believe he thought that even the women who found out that he was stealing would give money to him to support the Zealots in an effort to take control of the nation and free Jesus.

Well, I don't want to go on and on. I probably have done too much already. I tend to get carried away in my enthusiasm. I could be wrong here, but I offer it to you as "food for thought." Sorry for the long post.  Smiley

God bless,

John1one
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2003, 12:23:17 PM »

 Howdy,
          I remember a teaching from a while back about WHY did Judas have to point out Jesus. It was aranged before had that he would betray Jesus with a Kiss. Part of the reason that Jesus had to pointed out when obviously most would know him, the Roman soldiers probably didn't know him as well, so they had to make it a "legal" idenity. But also because Judas was the scapegoat, he was the accuser as the laws of that time requires, well in this day and age as well, also this way it kept the high priest making the poulation anger, and they were worried about keeping their popularity. So they found one that was a little on the shadey side anyway and "used' him to do their dirty work, they got to keep their hands clean......ame reason they turned it over to Pilate.
Rich blessing today
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2003, 02:16:07 AM »

John,

Good food and good thoughts!  I never really wondered much about why Judas had stolen the money.  I had always figured that he simply was a greedy sort.  It is unique, when you consider it, that it was after the second annointing, that Judas went to the priests.  He'd allowed his greed to anger him.  He saw Jesus as a liability now I think, more than anything else.  Hard to say though.  Good thoughts.

As for the falling back of the soldiers, that's more such food for thought!  I have no proof or otherwise for that understanding, I just find that incredibly interesting.  I also am amazed at the bravado of the cohort.  They still arrested Him!  Even after He heals the ear of the servant!  Alot of miracles happening at that point.  I've often wondered if the centurion who said that this must have been the Son of God at the cross was in that cohort.

Good thoughts brother! And I appreciate them.  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2003, 02:17:46 AM »

Good point musicllover!
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