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Author Topic: What Must We Do To Be Saved?  (Read 5101 times)
SelahJoy
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« on: July 04, 2005, 10:01:49 PM »

There was a sermon on the radio that left me with a question.  The message was about God's Sovereignty (agree) and that He predestined us for salvation (agree) and that our accepting Him has nothing to do with our salvation (?)  So, if that is the case, then what is the motivation for a non-believer who is all bound up into sin to believe?

I agree that belief is a result of the Holy Spirit, and I agree that this encourages me to pray more for the lost, but if a non-believer asked you why, since their confession of faith has no bearing on the free gift of salvation that God predestined to give some but not others, why then should they give their life to Jesus, what would you say?

Put in otherwords, if salvation is a free gift from God, one in which not even our confession is needed to receive salvation, then what motivates a person to confess, read the Bible, battle the devil's wiles, etc?  If my skeptical young adult family member asks me that question, I want to be ready with an answer.

Regardless the answer, I am going to pray even more fervently for him because it would appear that only the Holy Spirit REALLY brings one to REAL repentance!  (By the way, this sweet young man is married to my daughter, so I'm going to pray for her too!)

Thanks for setting me strait on the word of God!

selahjoy
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2005, 10:48:28 PM »

SelahJoy,

There is a movement today that is teaching this message. Some take it so far as to say that all will go to heaven for this reason.

The Bible is quite clear in its message of the Gospel and what we must do to be saved.

Joh 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  

Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.


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SelahJoy
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2005, 07:06:52 PM »

SelahJoy,

There is a movement today that is teaching this message. Some take it so far as to say that all will go to heaven for this reason.

The Bible is quite clear in its message of the Gospel and what we must do to be saved.

Joh 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  

Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.




I've heard of that teaching but I don't think that is the stand this preacher takes.  He is RC Schroll (spelling?).  Perhaps his overall message is that of the sovereignty of God, His works, not ours, that saves.  I would agree with that.

However, the Bible has passages both Old Testament and New in which people are exhorted to do something, be it confess by mouth, or sell all their stuff, or walk away from something and follow Jesus...

My point is that each person must make choices.  That doesn't mean that he deserves it anymore than the one who declines it.  For example, the two thieves on the cross.  They both deserved eternal separation from God,  but one accepted the free gift of God and the other one didn't.

I know it is difficult for works-based Christians to weed out the works mentality (I was raised in a works based religion with assigned days, and various rituals to observe regularly, and worst of all, if you sinned two minutes ago, you are now damned to hell--until ten minutes from now when you repent...which gets you salvation until you sin the next time...at which point you better repent real fast or you'll go to hell until you repent again...

That kind of theology is not Biblical.  I believe a closer-to-God's-heart way of rightly dividing His word is to understand that He desires all to come to Him.  He knows all will not.  Those who attain eternal relationship with God have a heart transplant.  They do something; they confess Jesus as God, Lord of all creation.  They hunger to know Him better which leads them to learn from the ancient writings we call the Bible.

When I heard RCS preach, I got a sense of awe and humility before the soveriegn God.  I appreciate that realization and want to meditate upon His word and receive all that God wants me to  know.

RCS pointed out that God chose Jacob, not Esau.  To me, that is an example of many other "why" and "why not" questions that we could ask our Lord.  But to me, this is more an example of the sovereignty of God in relation to one becoming this and another becoming that.  After all, we can't all be Esther or Joseph.  We can't all be called like Samson or Moses were, but we are all called to be His elected saved ones.  I believe even Pharoah could have been saved, if he had chosen it.  However, once he hardened his heart a number of times, God turned him over to his evil, carnal thinking.

Theology sure can get thick, can't it?  I prefer to remember my testimony.  I came to accept Jesus as God and left my future up to Him.  Because of the way I was raised, I figured if He felt heaven would be a better place without me, that was His perogotive.  However, I asked Him to let me get to be as close to Him as possible that day, which has turned into today, and right now.  Several years into my relationship with the Lord, a sister was praying for me and she felt Psalm 23 was for me.  She expounded upon it.  Later that same week, someone else prayed for me and she used the same text and said much the same thing!  I was touched, and the words, "...will dwell in the house of the Lord forever" stood out to me.  Tears fell down.  I didn't realize it up to that point, but apparently I had not known the assurance that He wanted me to live with Him forever in heaven.  But at that time, I for the first time, had a testimony of the fact that He invited me to the best family reunion ever!  I was overwhelmed, and happy to accept his invitation!

I don't know the literal theology that fits, but that's my testimony.  Now, I pray for others to know Him too.  By the way, THAT, I believe, is the most powerful testimony of Christianity in the world!  That Jesus can take humans who are innately selfish and make them look outward at others.  Further, that He can take offended souls and convince them to refuse to be offended, but to love others--even their enemies!  What an awesome religion!  

Thanks for reading, and if you know stuff that I should, I am so open to you, whether you are PR or whoeveryouare, please write to me.  Thank you,
selahjoy*
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2005, 08:45:22 PM »

Amen SelahJoy, Thank you for sharing that wonderful testimony.

I am not familiar with the person that you mentioned nor his teachings so I am not meaning to sound as though I am judging him. While I definitely agree in Gods Sovereignty and that He predestined us for salvation, I believe that it makes a world of difference whether we accept Him or reject Him as to our Salvation.

The Bible does not explicitly use the word accept in regards to man accepting Jesus as Saviour. So therefore some will teach it is not necessary for us to "accept" Him. The word accept is only used in regards to Jesus accepting us. It is another one of those cases of arguing semantics. Yet if we look at it correctly when we confess Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Lord then we are indeed accepting Him as our Saviour and Lord.

I would also like to add some additional thoughts here.

There are those that go through the steps in appearance yet do not have faith in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They have not truly accepted Him as Saviour. This is works without faith. Salvation is based on faith and not on works, yet faith without works is also dead. As we learn in the book of James good works are manifested through true faith in Jesus Christ.  

This does not mean that works are required to enter Heaven as you pointed out with the example of the thief on the cross that accepted Christ. This is saying that those who have true faith will exhibit it through their works. Why? because they will have the true desire to do their best to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, to do all they can to please Him in everyway they can. This does not mean that we will be perfect, for as long as we are in the flesh we will be subject to the temptations of the flesh.

The devils also believe and tremble in fear.

There are those that believe in Jesus Christ but still continue to sin as they did before without conviction of those sins, with no desire to change. These are not true followers of Jesus Christ. These are followers of their worldly lusts. We are seeing more and more of this in our churches throughout the world. The do as you want to do and still get to Heaven crowd. How terribly dissappointed they will be. How my heart suffers for these poor misguided souls.



Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

Jam 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


Mat 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2005, 10:01:34 PM »

Quote
What Must We Do To Be Saved?

JudgeNot's simple answer:

ACCEPT HIS LOVE!

Cherish His love. Return His love. Share His love with others.

Everything falls right into place after that...  Smiley

He is so wonderful - He makes it easy.  

If it's hard it means you're wrestling.  Jacob wrestled God and lost. (DUH!  Grin )(Genesis 32:22-32)  

Jacob said after the wrestling match (Genesis 32:30b) "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Just give up now - turn everything over to Him.

Accept His true, everlasting love.

That's what I have to do.  I'm pretty sure the formula is the same for all of us.
 Smiley

JN
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2005, 10:19:55 PM »

Amen, JN!

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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2005, 01:12:42 PM »




RCS pointed out that God chose Jacob, not Esau.  To me, that is an example of many other "why" and "why not" questions that we could ask our Lord.  But to me, this is more an example of the sovereignty of God in relation to one becoming this and another becoming that.  After all, we can't all be Esther or Joseph.  We can't all be called like Samson or Moses were, but we are all called to be His elected saved ones.  I believe even Pharoah could have been saved, if he had chosen it.  However, once he hardened his heart a number of times, God turned him over to his evil, carnal thinking.

I think you're on the right track.  Esau's and Pharoah's salvation isn't even dealt with in Romans 9.  The "it" of "it's not of him who wills or runs" isn't an individual’s personal salvation.  The “it” is “God’s purpose according to election”.  The context is the issue of national Israel’s role in history (chapters 9-11).

No one has ever been predestined to salvation.  Believers have been predestined to conformity to the image of His Son and to the adoption of sons (Rom. 8:29,30; Eph. 1:5,11).
People who have been chosen unto salvation aren’t “unconditionally” chosen.  

When people say to "accept" Christ it's usually used synonymously with "receive".  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. John 1:11  So it is scriptural to say that. Smiley


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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2005, 12:08:48 AM »

I do not wish to argue with anyone but I wish to give anyone that will, something to think about. God has a zero tolerance for sin, will not be around sin, will not allow sin to enter His kingdom. Why did God create a place that He knew would be so sinful and full of suffering? If He wanted more to worship Him and to fellowship with Him, He could make more angel and avoid all this sin and suffering. God wants something. The angels stood before God every day and yet 1/3 of them rebelled because they WANTED what God would not allow and they WANTED it MORE than they WANTED God. If they would have WANTED God MOST then they would not have rebelled. We r here because of what the angel did. We r here to be tested and tried, molded and made ready for heaven. God will have no more rebellion in His kingdom. What does it take to have God? We must repent and confess our sins, accept and believe on Jesus and what He did for us on the cross. This is the beginning. When u do this there r 3 things that happen to u. 1 (UR sins r forgiven). 2 (We r spiritually dead to God because of sin, we become spiritually alive to God (born again). 3 (The inborn nature is not cast out of ur heart at this time but he is suppressed). U want scripture? (KJV or NKJV) ( I do not read the NIV any more, it may be the worst translation we have). The gospel of John 1:12, To those that recieve Him (Jesus) r given the power or right TO BECOME the sons or children of God. There is a second step. Most churches used to teach this but most do not any more, It is just a sign of the times (the last days there will be a falling away (from truth) ). The second step is what I call the real decision. What does it take to get God's Spirit into ur heart? God must be what is MOST IMPORTANT to u. The story of the young rich man lets us know that what is MOST IMPORTANT to u will have ur alligence. When he was given a choice between God and his money, he chose what was most important to him, but it can be anything or anyone or urself that is MOST IMPORTANT to u. What is the MOST IMPORTANT to u? It is what u want more than anyone or anything else. It is what u will give up all else to get and keep. It is what u will do anything to get and keep. It is what u will go anywhere to get and keep. If u have God's Spirit in ur heart it will come down to, How much do u want God? We must TRUST God so much that we can give up or go or do and not fear that God will supply all our needs and our families needs. What does God's Spirit coming into our hearts do for us? When God's Spirit comes into our hearts the inborn nature is cast out and our hearts r purifyed. Sin like greed, lust, envy, jealousy etc. r also cast out because God will not dwell where sin dwells. When sin like greed, lust, envy etc. is cast out of our hearts it is no longer in control of us, it is how God makes it possible to say no to sin. Yes, u can give into and allow sin (greed, lust, envy etc.) back into our hearts like Lucifer did with pride. When we allow sin back in it will control us, we must ask forgivness and ask God to take it out again. As long as the inborn nature is in ur heart it will compel u to sin but when God's Spirit is in ur heart, sin becomes a choice. If u can serve God no matter the cost like Job and Joseph (go through the fire). If u can obey and surrender ur will and do God's will for ur life (take up ur cross). If u can obey and say no to sin here while being tempted (overcome). Then u will have no problem serving and obeying God in His kingdom. God will not just zap u and make u to where u will never rebel nor sin. If He were to do that then He would be programming u and u would be no more than a robot. It is a matter of quality of life that God made man and angel free willed. U say there will be no tempter in heaven. That is correct but u will still want and desire. Want and desire is why the angels rebelled. The bible says that a man is tempted when he is drawn away because of his own lust. It is something that he wants. U cannot be tempted by something u truly care nothing about. We must come to the place that all we want is God and the things of God for God is all there really is. I hope this helps someone.  
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2005, 01:08:23 PM »

Selah,

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  I'm saved because God chose me before the foundations of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son.  And somewhere along the line I made a decision to obey His call that had eternal consequence.  

 Smiley

Plain and simple.  Not easily understood, but simple.
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2005, 03:49:48 PM »

Quote
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I have questions regarding these two verses. It seems that they imply that a person who is not truly saved can cast out demons in the name of the Lord. How can that be?

Also, doesn't this also show that spiritual gifts like prophecy, casting out demons, and miracles are not proof of Jesus' presence in your heart? Afterall, the Lord said that He "never" knew them, implying that they had not been saved at any time in their life (as opposed to, say, getting saved, performing those works while saved, then turning away from God and falling back into sin; for those who believe that one can lose their salvation).
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2005, 04:27:21 PM »

I do believe that this verse explains it quite well.


Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Just because someone says that they are casting out demons does not necessarily mean that they are actually doing so. Just because someone uses the name Jesus does not mean that the word they are speaking is actually from Jesus, i.e. we have many that prophesy today that also talk about Jesus but do not recognise Jesus as their saviour. Sometimes those prophecies come true and sometimes they don't. There are those that say "I do this in the name of Jesus" but in their hearts they are doing those acts for their own personal benefit in front of man.

Jesus knows the hearts of man and why they do what they do.




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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2005, 04:51:31 PM »

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Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I have questions regarding these two verses. It seems that they imply that a person who is not truly saved can cast out demons in the name of the Lord. How can that be?


There is power in the name of Christ.   Word/God breathed principles have effect when put in into practice.  But that is not insurance that we have come to saving Grace through faith in Christ.   Read further before you respond here  Smiley

Quote
Also, doesn't this also show that spiritual gifts like prophecy, casting out demons, and miracles are not proof of Jesus' presence in your heart? Afterall, the Lord said that He "never" knew them, implying that they had not been saved at any time in their life (as opposed to, say, getting saved, performing those works while saved, then turning away from God and falling back into sin; for those who believe that one can lose their salvation).

Note very carefully what their claim to the Lord is in the verses...

Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


They are declaring to the Lord their salvation by works....aren't we your sheep....look at US and OUR works?   But just as a sounding gong, and tinkling cymbal, they have no Love, nor give credit to the saviour who should be the one producing fruit through their lives.   Their works are not produced by saving Grace and Love of the Lord, but rather for the sake of raising themselves highly in the eyes of others, and even to God, and love of themselves....much like the pharisees.  

They have Religion, not Christ.   Wolves in Sheeps clothing.  

Yes faith and works do go hand in hand, but it must start with Faith and saving Grace.  It is when we truly put Christ at the headship of our lives that works are produced through us by Him.   Not us working to produce His works through a tested and proven manual/scripture which when practised does produce results.  

It all comes back to Who is Lord of our lives....Him or us.  Does He know us because of our broken plees for forgiveness and obediance to Him?   Or do we claim He knows us because WE do great things in the eyes of men and God?
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« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2005, 05:13:06 PM »

Quote
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I have questions regarding these two verses. It seems that they imply that a person who is not truly saved can cast out demons in the name of the Lord. How can that be?

Also, doesn't this also show that spiritual gifts like prophecy, casting out demons, and miracles are not proof of Jesus' presence in your heart? Afterall, the Lord said that He "never" knew them, implying that they had not been saved at any time in their life (as opposed to, say, getting saved, performing those works while saved, then turning away from God and falling back into sin; for those who believe that one can lose their salvation).


Satan counterfeits.  It's probably that simple.  It reminds me of the miracles Moses did, and for each of them Pharoah had his magicians perform one also.  At least it might have looked that way.  Finally God hardened his heart to the point that he became reprobate.  He couldn't have repented even if he had wanted.  God gave him many chances and then just left him up to his own devices.  That's how I look at it anyway.

Grace and peace,
cris

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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2005, 08:18:45 PM »

There was a sermon on the radio that left me with a question.  The message was about God's Sovereignty (agree) and that He predestined us for salvation (agree) and that our accepting Him has nothing to do with our salvation (?)  So, if that is the case, then what is the motivation for a non-believer who is all bound up into sin to believe?

I agree that belief is a result of the Holy Spirit, and I agree that this encourages me to pray more for the lost, but if a non-believer asked you why, since their confession of faith has no bearing on the free gift of salvation that God predestined to give some but not others, why then should they give their life to Jesus, what would you say?

Put in otherwords, if salvation is a free gift from God, one in which not even our confession is needed to receive salvation, then what motivates a person to confess, read the Bible, battle the devil's wiles, etc?  If my skeptical young adult family member asks me that question, I want to be ready with an answer.

Regardless the answer, I am going to pray even more fervently for him because it would appear that only the Holy Spirit REALLY brings one to REAL repentance!  (By the way, this sweet young man is married to my daughter, so I'm going to pray for her too!)

Thanks for setting me strait on the word of God!

selahjoy

Your reference is to R. C. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries.

He is a "pop" psychologist theologian, and well into mind games ala Robert Schuller and others.  His basic theology is firmly rooted in 5 pt. Calvinism with a whole lot of divergences.

Since he believes that salvation is "predestined," choice doesn't enter into the matter, therefore we need to just go ahead with our lives, think positively, and become as good as possible in the "hope" that we were one of the ones selected.

The guys a flake (imo).
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« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2005, 08:29:12 PM »

There was a sermon on the radio that left me with a question.  The message was about God's Sovereignty (agree) and that He predestined us for salvation (agree) and that our accepting Him has nothing to do with our salvation (?)  So, if that is the case, then what is the motivation for a non-believer who is all bound up into sin to believe?

I agree that belief is a result of the Holy Spirit, and I agree that this encourages me to pray more for the lost, but if a non-believer asked you why, since their confession of faith has no bearing on the free gift of salvation that God predestined to give some but not others, why then should they give their life to Jesus, what would you say?

Put in otherwords, if salvation is a free gift from God, one in which not even our confession is needed to receive salvation, then what motivates a person to confess, read the Bible, battle the devil's wiles, etc?  If my skeptical young adult family member asks me that question, I want to be ready with an answer.

Regardless the answer, I am going to pray even more fervently for him because it would appear that only the Holy Spirit REALLY brings one to REAL repentance!  (By the way, this sweet young man is married to my daughter, so I'm going to pray for her too!)

Thanks for setting me strait on the word of God!

selahjoy

Your reference is to R. C. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries.

He is a "pop" psychologist theologian, and well into mind games ala Robert Schuller and others.  His basic theology is firmly rooted in 5 pt. Calvinism with a whole lot of divergences.

Since he believes that salvation is "predestined," choice doesn't enter into the matter, therefore we need to just go ahead with our lives, think positively, and become as good as possible in the "hope" that we were one of the ones selected.

The guys a flake (imo).

Believe it or not, I never even heard about the predestination theology until about 5 years ago.  I was absolutely shocked to learn that some people believe there are people born just to go to hell.  How horrible that is.  That would mean I serve a cruel God.  I don't believe a loving God would do this. I don't understand how anyone could, for that matter.  It sure sounds like an evil theology to me.

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