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« on: May 29, 2005, 10:17:29 AM »

This morning while thinking about this memorial day weekend, its meaning, and what our soldiers have paid for with their lives, I came across a multi part lesson regarding America and our place as citizens by Dr. Charles Stanley.   He speaks, not about our soldiers, but about our nation and where we are currently.   I found it not only informative, but challenging to me as an individual and a believer in Christ.   I will be posting the entire lesson in parts, (over time to allow discussion), and I hope you find it as probing, insightful, and challenging as I have.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2005, 10:19:06 AM »

America at the crossroads 1

Which way America?  Part 1


We are now in the midst of a critical time in the life of America. Decisions are being made that are drastically reshaping the very face of the nation. Our leaders are tackling issues everyday that will impact each man, woman, and child in the United States. And these decisions will determine what kind of life, opportunities, and freedoms we will have in the future.
    America is at a crossroads right now. That is, the road from which we came and the road on which we’re going have intersected. We are now entering new ground, a place completely different from that which our forefathers intended.
    My question as we begin this important study is, “In light of these many critical decisions, what kind of response are we to give?” As followers of Christ, are we called to simply accept every bad decision that others make on our behalf, or should we rise up and engage our culture as Christians? I pray that as you and I work through these lessons together, you will see that God has a plan for our nation and that you play an important role in that grand design.


Isaiah 33:22   For the Lord is our judge, The Lord is our lawgiver, The Lord is our king; He will save us.

Woodrow Wilson, the twenty-eighth President of the United States, once stated, “A nation which does not remember what it was yesterday does not know what it is today, nor what it is trying to do.” Well, the question for us is, what were we yesterday? Furthermore, does that nation of “yesterday” resemble what we are today or what we are now becoming?
    I do not believe that we are now living and working in the America envisioned by our forefathers. Despite the opinions that often fill the media—no matter how loud they may seem—this country was in fact founded upon the very principles of God’s Word. This makes perfect sense, as we see in Psalm 33:12, “Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD.” For many generations, America was organized, directed, and steered on biblical principles. The result was a country that enjoyed more blessings than any other has ever imagined. We’ve been given freedom, prosperity, strength, influence, and global respect. We’ve led the world in many technological, economic, and social advancements. We’ve even lent our strength to other countries when their own safety was endangered. We have certainly been a nation blessed by almighty God.
    However, the twentieth century brought a dramatic shift away from our foundational principles. How long will God continue to bless a nation that consistently turns Him away one decision at a time? With these issues in mind, it is vital for us, both as Christians and as Americans, to take a close look at our nation’s history.


   It is true that our founding fathers did not set out to create a “Christian nation.” What, then, was their goal? Clearly, they meant to establish a system that provided the liberty, opportunity, and faith to believe that people were able to govern themselves. What was their frame of reference? It was the truths of Scripture! In thinking about America’s history, Abraham Lincoln once commented, “It is the duty of nations as well as men . . . to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord” (Lincoln’s invocation of a national day of prayer, March 30, 1863).
    So often, the world accuses our forefathers of being a random collection of atheists, agnostics, and deists who neither believed in Jesus Christ, nor revere the Bible as authoritative. This is simply not true, as even a cursory glance at history demonstrates. Beginning with the Pilgrims in 1620, the Bible was used as a foundational piece of authority in early American homes and towns. These settlers embedded scriptural truths in their children, who did so with their children, and so on. So, the men who founded our country in 1776 had been reared with 150 years of solid, consistent, reverent Bible training.
    Many, many of the founding fathers shared three essential truths that held them together as a unified body. First, they believed that Jesus Christ was Savior and Lord. Second, they saw Christ as the giver of liberty. Third, they understood the Bible to be the ultimate authority on civil government. Girded with these truths, these men entered into debates and discussions, the result of which was the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. These two documents are far removed from any other governmental writings up to that point, because they emphasized a revolutionary idea: men should be free to govern themselves.
    What was the basis for this radical movement? It was Holy Scripture! Our three branches of government correspond perfectly to the writings of the prophet Isaiah: “For the LORD is our judge [judicial branch], the LORD is our lawgiver [legislative branch], the LORD is our king [executive branch]” (Isaiah 33:22).


Even the Supreme Court, a body that has consistently acted contrary to God’s Word during the past century, originally took a much different stance on matters of Scripture. In 1811, the Court declared, “Whatever strikes at the root of Christianity tends to destroy civil government” (People v. Ruggles). In 1892, the Court further stated, “Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based on and include the teachings of the Redeemer” (Church of the Holy Trinty v. United States). Clearly, the Bible was seen as the authority for civil government. While not every founding father was a believer, all of them certainly looked toward Scripture for guidance, instruction, and wisdom for effective government.

Compare and contrast the two Supreme Court statements referenced above with more recent court decisions. How is the spirit of the court different now than it was then?



 Now, why are we now at a crossroads in America? Despite our strong biblical beginnings, things began to change in the twentieth century. Some people may argue that the changes of the past one hundred years simply represent the natural drift and development of any system of government. I disagree. I firmly believe that the changes that have taken place were not done by accident, but by design. We are now exactly where our decision-makers have brought us. And what is worse, we have allowed it.
    There are people within our nation that desire to draw us away from everything that is godly and to shut down anything that bears a Christian influence. They do not care what we do or what we say, as long as we stay locked away in our church buildings. Once we step outside, we are told quite clearly to keep our mouths shut and to keep our influence out of government policies. This reveals two very simple, yet devastating, operating principles of many of today’s decision-makers. First, they do not want to have anything to do with God, and they do not want God to have anything to do with them. Second, they want to make decisions based on preference, not principle. We’ll discuss this more as we move on. For now, let’s scan through the twentieth century’s events to see the dramatic move away from God’s Word.


    In 1920, John Dewey first set forth his ideas, which began the dawn of what we know as the humanist movement. This, in turn, led to a new educational system that he called “progressive education.” Now, when a man gains this much influence, it is vital that we examine his life to see what kind of a man he is and what he believes. When we apply this test to John Dewey, we discover his beliefs, which he expresses: "There is no God and there is no soul. Hence, there are no needs for the props of traditional religion. With dogma and creed excluded, then immutable truth is also dead and buried. There is no room for fixed, natural law or moral absolutes" (Clifton Fadiman, ed., Living Philosophies: The Reflections of Some Eminent Men and Women of Our Time, New York: Simon Schuster, 1931). This means that, without any firm, fixed moral guidepost, every man must adjust his ethical standards according to his own judgment.
    This seemed like a radical idea at the time, but it was nothing new. We see this very principle revealed in Scripture: “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes” (Judges 21:25). The result of that behavior was complete anarchy in the land. Why would we believe it to be any different when applied to twentieth-century America? Without a doubt, this movement began to shift us in the wrong direction.


    Later, in 1947, Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black took a passage out of context from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. This letter was written to the Danbury Baptist Association, and its intent was to assure the church that the government would not intrude into their beliefs and practices. Black turned this promise around and misapplied it in the opposite direction. The result was what we now know as the wall of separation of church and state.
    Did you know that the words “wall,” “separation,” and “church” are not even found in the Constitution? There was absolutely no precedent for the Court’s decision. They acted not on precedent or principle, but on preference. They made a decision based on what they wanted to accomplish. This was the first step of the Supreme Court to remove any biblically-based influence from the civil government. This is certainly not what the founding fathers of the nation intended. Again, their intent was not to create a Christian nation, but it certainly was to organize a system of government around the obviously high moral and ethical standards of Scripture. But, in 1947, the Supreme Court decided they did not want America to go in that direction anymore.



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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2005, 10:19:46 AM »

    In 1962, the Court decided that prayer should be removed from our schools. Again, there was no precedent for this; rather, this was simply a decision that the Supreme Court made on their own. One year later, in 1963, the Bible was removed from public schools. Can you even imagine that? The most important, widely-read, and best-selling book of all time was removed from our educational system. The reason the Court gave is almost unbelievable: because reading Scripture might cause psychological damage to children. Does the conviction to love your brother cause psychological damage? Do the ethical mandates of the Ten Commandments cause psychological damage? Surely, men and women as educated as Supreme Court Justices should know better.
    In 1973, one of the most clearly stated biblical instructions was completely rejected by the Supreme Court: that of killing children. Abortion was legalized and, in turn, America took a dramatic step far away from its biblical beginnings.
    In 1980, the Ten Commandments were removed from the schools. How strange that the foundational truths that steered the development of our civil government cannot be studied in a civics class! This removal of the Commandments makes perfect sense, however. Remember, people will want to legitimize and, ultimately, legalize what they practice. The connection between abortion and the removal of the Ten Commandments makes this point clear. If you practice something like abortion, you want to legitimize it by removing the opposition. In this case, the opposition was the truth of the Ten Commandments. When the moral law is removed from the situation, it is a simple step to legalize the action.



    Do you see how all of these things fit together to form an intentional movement away from Scripture? And what has been the result? So many of these decisions have direct implications for our schools. But are our schools safer today? No. Are our students performing better than they did in the past? No. Are our children behaving themselves, governing themselves, and acting as more effective members of society? No. Instead, we have school shootings, teen suicide, rampant laziness and dropping out of school, lack of motivation, no academic or career direction, and shamefully low test scores. This cannot be a surprise to us. When you remove the very things that made our nation great, what other result can you possibly expect?
    This brings us to our modern-day issues. I believe that the issue of homosexuality is an accurate renewal of the same process we saw in the abortion debates of the 1970s: practice, legitimize, legalize. We are now encouraged to accept homosexual marriage as a way of life, despite the fact that it is so clearly contrary to the teachings of Scripture, the basis for our very government!



    The indictment that we so often face is that Christians are attempting to “legislate morality.” Listen to me carefully: all legislation is somebody’s morality. Therefore, the very people who accuse us of this are the ones who now want to legislate and legalize their own brand of morality. The difference is that our faith-based morality is now looked down upon for some reason, and seen as childish, bigoted, or insensitive. How ironic! It seems that in this day and age, the only group that is an “acceptable” target of bigotry is Christians!
    The world unfairly and inaccurately depicts us as hating those who are not like ourselves, all the while cursing us and enacting legislation to tear down our practices. We see this in the removal of the word “Christmas” from general usage, in the movement to remove “One nation under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance, and from the outcry against Christian symbols in the public arena. There is no precedent for any of this—it is simply the propagation of preference by those who stand against Scripture. And, by and large, we have kept silent and watched it happen.
    My friend, America is indeed at a crossroads. Two philosophies have clashed. The humanist movement has risen up to oppose the foundational truths of Scripture, and the future of America hangs in the balance. One side will win and one will lose—there can be no compromise because each side is diametrically opposed. Therefore, you must choose your position now. Where are all those who stand on the Word of God, who desire to keep the Bible firmly in place as the nation’s cornerstone for fair, ethical, and moral legislation? Our only motivation is the truth found in God's Word. Let His truths motivate you to engage your culture for His glory.



   And, Father, we pray the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of every person—people who are believers and people who are not believers, people who are living in sin and people who are living righteously, for You love us, every one. You want the best for all of us. You desire the best for all of us. And, Father, You know people. You know what is in all of our humanity and our sinfulness and our weakness and frailties. And You know how people can get caught up in what they think will satisfy them, what they think will bring them happiness and peace, only to discover horribly, disastrously, that to violate the principles of God is to suffer grave consequences. Deliver us from this, Father, is our prayer. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

end part 1
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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2005, 11:10:17 AM »

   In 1962, the Court decided that prayer should be removed from our schools.

Sorry, no it didn't! The court said that teacher-led prayers were unconstitutional. If children aren't praying in school it's because they don't want to.

Quote
One year later, in 1963, the Bible was removed from public schools.

Any information on this?

Quote
The reason the Court gave is almost unbelievable: because reading Scripture might cause psychological damage to children.

It's unbelievable because it's not true. The Supreme Court is concerned with Constitutional issues.

I was going to go through the rest of the post, but it's really not worth the trouble. The author is simply being dishonest. He seems to be one of a growing number of people that wants to make a living by telling born again/evangelical Christians what they want to hear.

 
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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2005, 11:42:10 AM »

2nd Timothy,

AMEN BROTHER! Thanks very much for sharing this. I look forward to reading the rest of the series. This has been a matter of study and interest for me many years. I have a large collection of documents from the founding fathers that give a very clear record about how our country was founded. Unfortunately, it can't be taught in public schools now. The books on American history have been altered and adulterated to remove the real story of our founding. However, the real history still exists for anyone who wishes to learn the truth.

To any that would doubt what has happened in this country over the last 50 years, it's simply a matter of public record. It either happened or it didn't, and it certainly happened. In fact, the continued assaults to shove God completely out of our public schools is in the news almost daily.

Thanks again for posting this. I really look forward to more.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 14:1-3  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2005, 01:09:32 PM »

Amen 2T. I also look forward to reading the rest of the series.


Dyskolos,

The author of this article is stating the lawsuits that have been built upon by other lawsuits to bring about the situation we have today.

While you are right in the fact that the 1962 case of Engel v Vitale stopped government led prayer it is the decision that has roller coasted many other such law suits that has finally denigrated to the point of any spoken prayers in schools by anyone. The ACLU is pushing for even more such rulings attempting to outlaw prayer altogether.



In 1963 bibles were removed from the schools by the decision of  Murray v. Curlett, based on this inexplicable pronouncement of the Supreme Court: "If portions of the new testament were read without explanation, they could be and have been psychologically harmful to the child.  Again, in Murray, the Supreme Court cited no precedent, as indeed there were none.  The Court blatantly declared God's word to be harmful to children!

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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2005, 02:33:48 PM »

Quote
I was going to go through the rest of the post, but it's really not worth the trouble. The author is simply being dishonest. He seems to be one of a growing number of people that wants to make a living by telling born again/evangelical Christians what they want to hear.


Dyskolos,

Like PR and BEPS have said, its not hard to understand what the author is saying.   If you deem the article not worth you time, I suspect you wont find the continuations of interest either.

However...

If you judge in truth that Dr. Charles Stanley is being dishonest and attempting to make a living by trying to lead many Christians astray with what they want to hear, and is not speaking truth from the word of God, should it not be your duty to provoke him to repentance and good works, thereby helping a multitude of people?  

Dr. Charles Stanley can be contacted at:

In Touch Ministries
Main Office
P.O. Box 7900
Atlanta, GA 30357
1-800-789-1473


I look forward to hearing the dialog of correspondence between you and Dr. Stanley.


Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2005, 02:43:38 PM »

Oh please, you must be kidding!

This Stanley guy must be a very wealthy man, judging from all the books, cruises, and other products he has for sale!

I'm pretty sure he has heard all the objections that I might raise, certainly there are many others with more motivation and time that are doing what you are asking me to do.
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2005, 02:53:29 PM »

certainly there are many others with more motivation and time that are doing what you are asking me to do.

If your convictions are genuine, that should be more than enough to motivate you to what is right.   If it is not, what is it that motivates you to respond to that which you have no time to read?

 Huh
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2005, 02:54:59 PM »


In 1963 bibles were removed from the schools by the decision of  Murray v. Curlett, based on this inexplicable pronouncement of the Supreme Court: "If portions of the new testament were read without explanation, they could be and have been psychologically harmful to the child.  Again, in Murray, the Supreme Court cited no precedent, as indeed there were none.  The Court blatantly declared God's word to be harmful to children!



What you are saying here, your quote, is absolutely not true. I'd be interested in seeing where you got this. The Supreme Court is concerned with Constitutional issues, not with the psychological welfare of children - that is a matter for State and local courts.

In its 1963 ruling, the Supreme Court did not "abolish prayer" in public schools. It ended a coercive religious practice which even many people of faith found offensive and intrusive.
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2005, 02:57:56 PM »

Dysk, You know fully well what the author MEANT. We all know the stupid laws from SYATFP and all that stuff. He was covering the topic as a whole. Stop arguing about semantics, it is just asinine.

I agreee, he did exaggerated things and is blowing them out of Proportions like most Evangelicals on this day and age (The doomsayer, scare tactics of the Left Behind teaching has them all worked up over nothing), but he was not in any way dishonest. To say such a thing only reveals your own ignorance on the subject, and makes you no better them him for using such hyperboles.
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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2005, 03:35:57 PM »


In 1963 bibles were removed from the schools by the decision of  Murray v. Curlett, based on this inexplicable pronouncement of the Supreme Court: "If portions of the new testament were read without explanation, they could be and have been psychologically harmful to the child.  Again, in Murray, the Supreme Court cited no precedent, as indeed there were none.  The Court blatantly declared God's word to be harmful to children!



What you are saying here, your quote, is absolutely not true. I'd be interested in seeing where you got this. The Supreme Court is concerned with Constitutional issues, not with the psychological welfare of children - that is a matter for State and local courts.

In its 1963 ruling, the Supreme Court did not "abolish prayer" in public schools. It ended a coercive religious practice which even many people of faith found offensive and intrusive.

Do a search for yourself, Dyskolos. The Supreme Court has a web page with many major rulings posted on it.


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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2005, 10:40:03 PM »

The history of changes in the American classroom is heavily documented. The changes can be summarized very easily: just about anything to do with God has been shoved out.

To say that a child can pray silently and use that as evidence that prayer has not been removed from public schools is what's dishonest. The class valedictorian must have a battery of lawyers and face possible legal action to speak out loud anything about God. Christmas and and Thanksgiving plays have been banned in every school that's ever had a challenge. Christmas carols and other music with any religious content have also been banned under similar conditions. YES! - the textbooks and curriculum have suffered the same fate. This is the plain and simple facts and does not represent an exaggeration.

Since before the founding, during the founding, and after the founding, we had 200+ years of the Holy Bible as being one of the primary teaching texts in our public schools. Hymns, Christmas carols, and plays with religious content were the norm. Prayer was held numerous times per day. Congress directed the printing of the first English Bibles in America, and Congress bought them for use in public schools. 52 of the original 55 signing founders were Evangelical Christians. The other 3 were known as Deists, those recognizing the existence of a supreme being. Regardless, the founding was as a Christian nation and for a Christian nation. Children were taught to read with the Holy Bible and the New England Primer. The New England Primer heavily used excerpts from the Holy Bible, and it was used into the 1900s in many parts of the country.

Before and after the founding, most states had requirements that anyone holding public office had to be a Christian, and that included school teachers. Even after the founding, many states did have churches that were supported by the state. Many of the limitations in Federal documents were never intended to apply to the States. Serious students of the Constitution will easily recognize a host of topics and issues today that are clearly Unconstitutional, at least at the Federal level. Each State also has a Constitution, and many powers that were reserved for the States have been removed. This was not done by legal interpretations of the U.S. Constitution, rather by activist judges who twisted and distorted the Constitution beyond recognition.

In short, the real America has been stolen by ultra-liberal courts and judges, and let's not forget folks like the ACLU. The picture of what's left is pretty ugly.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 5:17-18  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2005, 12:00:49 AM »

A very reluctant Amen, Beps. I say reluctant because it saddens my heart to have to agree to such truths.

This nation as a whole is looking at some very hard times if we do not turn back to God. There is lesson upon lesson given in the Bible as to what has happened to nations that turned their backs on God and allowed evil to take over.

 
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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2005, 07:21:42 AM »

Amen Brothers.   The next post starts to deal with some of where this is going.

I had posted it here, but I think I will creat a new thread for each part.   I think each deserves its own discussion.

Grace and Peace!
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