New Teaching – the “Denial Doctrine”

[Audax]

Cris,

I'm wondering if you have a postion on these issues yourself, or no?

Your question is a hypothetical that according to Jesus' parable is not an actual.  Jesus words in the parable are quite clear, but the forceful emphasis of His main point is what He's after.  This is not a detailed expression of systematic theology, it's a parable.  God approximates the King and we approximate the slave.  The story shouldn't be made to stand on all fours.  Otherwise we have God casting our families into hell for our sins, God being less than all knowing, us having the same power to cast into hell as God, etc....

The main point.  Forgive or you won't be forgiven.  

If your own systematization of the Bible's theology throws a different spin on the issue, then that's your take.  The point is not just this passage but systematizing all of the Bible into a synthesis that is reasonable and does justice to the teachings and emphasis of the Bible.  

I don't believe in dwelling too much in the realm of hypothetical theory because once theories have been formed they can then easily be made to obscure and smear over the practical issues of the real world.

Where there seems to be issues and questions about this or that situation, we have to leave that to God's justice.  He is just and merciful and we ultimately won't know what happened or happens here or there until we are with Him ourselves.    

Ben  

[cris]

Audax,

No, I don't have a position on these issues.  I thought I did at one time but now I'm doing more studying and asking more questions.

OK------for now let's just forget Jesus' parable.  If I'm saved and don't forgive my brother from my heart, where do you think I'll go when I die?  Some would say "heaven" because I'm saved and have been forgiven for sins, past, present and future.  Others would site various Scripture references showing that I wouldn't go to heaven-------that I could lose my salvation.  I can think of a verse where Jesus forgave and said, "go and sin NO MORE".  If it wasn't impossible for us to live a sinless life then I don't think Jesus would have said to go and sin no more.

Audax said:
The main point.  Forgive or you won't be forgiven.

cris replies:
Was He speaking to the "saved" also?  If so, how will a saved person go to heaven if they don't forgive their brother?  

We are COMMANDED to forgive!  Where do the saved go if they haven't forgiven.  Supposition:  I'm angry with a brother for sinning against me.  I die before I've forgiven him.  Where would I go in you opinion.  

Sorry for some of the redundancy.  Just trying to clarify.

Grace and peace
cris

[Audax]

Cris,

I just spent two hours or more, writing out a long reply to your questions.  When I sought to submit it I lost everything because it was, "too long."  I'm sorry I lost it but I don't have another two hours to give to it right now.  Here's the short answer without all the details and passages from half the NT to back it up.  

I feel that the issue of whether a Christian can loose his salvation or not is a traditional theological question, not a Biblical one.  I believe it's the wrong question and I can't find too many good reasons for asking it.  I certainly can't find good reasons for emphasizing it.  We need to emphasize what Scripture emphasizes, not just teach what it teaches.

The right question(s)?  I believe the first is:  What is a Christian?  

After we've defined what a Christian is, let's see if the question of whether a Christian can loose his salvation is still valid?  Here's my practical Bible definition of a Christian:

 "...For we have been partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,..." Heb. 3:12-14  _{Read context and infact all of Hebrews for the full impression.}

You can't get much more theological than that.  That's how I define what a Christian is.  

And the second question is this:  How do I know I am a Christian?

"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love...." 1Jn. 4:15-18

You can't get much more real and practical than that.  Our faith produces the fruit of love or else it isn't real and we have no way of proving to ourselves that it is real.  Read all of 1Jn. for the full idea.  

Many can't accept this because their lives don't match it.  That's not a good enough reason to not accept it.  It is all the more reason to pay heed.  As Eph. 5 says.  "You shall be Holy for I am Holy."   We ought to conduct ourselves in fear because we have been saved with the blood of Jesus, not perishable things like silver or gold.  Let's allow God to prove our faith and refine it.  It's value to us is beyond that of gold.  It's value is in its end.  God.

Ben

[Evangelist]

Audax,

No, I don't have a position on these issues.  I thought I did at one time but now I'm doing more studying and asking more questions.

OK------for now let's just forget Jesus' parable.  If I'm saved and don't forgive my brother from my heart, where do you think I'll go when I die?  Some would say "heaven" because I'm saved and have been forgiven for sins, past, present and future.  Others would site various Scripture references showing that I wouldn't go to heaven-------that I could lose my salvation.  I can think of a verse where Jesus forgave and said, "go and sin NO MORE".  If it wasn't impossible for us to live a sinless life then I don't think Jesus would have said to go and sin no more.

Audax said:
The main point.  Forgive or you won't be forgiven.

cris replies:
Was He speaking to the "saved" also?  If so, how will a saved person go to heaven if they don't forgive their brother?  

We are COMMANDED to forgive!  Where do the saved go if they haven't forgiven.  Supposition:  I'm angry with a brother for sinning against me.  I die before I've forgiven him.  Where would I go in you opinion.  

Sorry for some of the redundancy.  Just trying to clarify.

Grace and peace
cris

Chris:
If saved, our arrival in heaven is assured. What we may not get when we do get there, are the "rewards" spoken of by Paul. We give account (to Jesus) at His judgment seat for all of the 'works' or acts committed by us in the flesh AFTER salvation.  Those works or acts that are of Him, by Him, and through Him are works of gold or silver, while other acts (including unforgiveness) are hay and stubble.  See 1 Cor 3:11-15 for more details.

Romans 7, and a study of the verbal tensing of 1 Jn's "sin not" & "if we do sin" will further explain the practical ramifications of the daily fight we have between spirit and flesh.

Fortunately for us, though, the Lord is patient, long-suffering, kind, and merciful.....and persistent!  So you can rest assured that He will keep hounding, badgering, reminding, convincing and convicting us of our lack of forgiveness until such time as we do forgive.....along with many other things.  

[Audax]

Evangelist,

I appreciate your position and welcome your posts.  It is the popular one with the Christians I've been around, and I held to it and defended it for years myself.  I don't feel it is always willing to emphasize the full truth of Scripture, which states other things emphatically aswell, that we need to keep in balance.  You must be just as strong with Jesus' statement regarding unforgiveness.  Otherwise you are just speaking a hypothetical and applying it to an actual.  This would be basically explaining away Jesus' words about forgiveness through theology rather than listening to them.  That's my concern that we don't explain anything away.

The actual question is what I'm to do if I have unforgiveness in my heart of know another "Christian" who does.  Scripture is clear I need to remove the problem or be in danger of hell, nomatter whether I think I'm saved or not.  

If we are saved, our arrival in heaven is assured but how do we know we are saved?  What does the Bible say about this?  

Romans 7 has little to do with a Christian's daily experience with sin.  Rather it is an accurate illustration of the experience of how the flesh prevents us from keeping the law when we have not yet learned or applied the truth of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8)  Vs.13 is transitional.  Paul is using a rhetorical device and modeling his own teachings.

1Cor. 3:11-15 is absolutely true, but it isn't a catchall for people who think they are saved but aren't or who should atleast fear they aren't.

Gal 6:7   "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.  For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."  

Ben
 

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

JESUS fulfilled the law perfectly and was obedient unto death, even the death of the CROSS.

No man could obey the law, and the same is true today. For this simple reason, the children of God should expect correction and chastisement from our Heavenly Father. This does not mean that HE will remove us from the BODY OF CHRIST when we stumble or sin. During this short life, we will all have a need to pray for forgiveness of sin. We should still remember that we have no righteousness of our own. Any righteousness we might have is ONLY in and through our precious Lord and Saviour, JESUS CHRIST. We are left with a continuing need to give thanks and realize just how unworthy we are for HIS GIFT.

The instructions in the Holy Bible for Christian living and Christian testimony before men are NOT instructions for how to stay Saved. As unworthy as we are, we can have 100% assurance of Salvation. This is not because of our works or goodness, rather because of the finished work of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS.

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:12-14  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

[cris]

Evangelist and BEP,

Am not ignoring your posts-------------thanks for your input.


(BEP, I have yet to PM you, but I will shortly)

Grace and peace,
cris

[AVBunyan]

AVBunyan (Tom),

Respectfully, what then do you do with 2Tim 2:11-13?  

"It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;  If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;  If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

Hi Benjamiin - it appears some are having difficulty with what I believe.  In answer to your question regarding the above statement.

The context appears to be reigning not salvation. The only thing that can fit is this: "If we deny him he will deny us (a reigning with him or a position maybe?) but not salvation.  Christ cannot deny me - I am bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.  I am in Christ and  seated with him in heavenly places right now - Eph. 2:6.

I have not been posting much and at the present time I am not ablel to spend much time but hopefully soon as there appears to be some misunderstanding of my OP.  

It appears Blackeyedpeas understands it though.

If a "saint" says he can deny Christ then he is most likely trusting is own efforts not Christ.

God bless

[cris]

Cris,

I just spent two hours or more, writing out a long reply to your questions.  When I sought to submit it I lost everything because it was, "too long."  I'm sorry I lost it but I don't have another two hours to give to it right now.  Here's the short answer without all the details and passages from half the NT to back it up.  

I feel that the issue of whether a Christian can loose his salvation or not is a traditional theological question, not a Biblical one.  I believe it's the wrong question and I can't find too many good reasons for asking it.  I certainly can't find good reasons for emphasizing it.  We need to emphasize what Scripture emphasizes, not just teach what it teaches.

The right question(s)?  I believe the first is:  What is a Christian?  

After we've defined what a Christian is, let's see if the question of whether a Christian can loose his salvation is still valid?  Here's my practical Bible definition of a Christian:

 "...For we have been partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,..." Heb. 3:12-14  _{Read context and infact all of Hebrews for the full impression.}

You can't get much more theological than that.  That's how I define what a Christian is.  

And the second question is this:  How do I know I am a Christian?

"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love...." 1Jn. 4:15-18

You can't get much more real and practical than that.  Our faith produces the fruit of love or else it isn't real and we have no way of proving to ourselves that it is real.  Read all of 1Jn. for the full idea.  

Many can't accept this because their lives don't match it.  That's not a good enough reason to not accept it.  It is all the more reason to pay heed.  As Eph. 5 says.  "You shall be Holy for I am Holy."   We ought to conduct ourselves in fear because we have been saved with the blood of Jesus, not perishable things like silver or gold.  Let's allow God to prove our faith and refine it.  It's value to us is beyond that of gold.  It's value is in its end.  God.

Ben

Audax,

I'm sorry you lost all your work.    It's happened in the past to me, also.  I know exactly how you must have felt.  Please, you needn't go into such a detailed response.

I read your response several times and did go into 1John.

When it's all said and done, we'll probably realize we've been on the same page.

Regardless of feelng that the question is wrong, could you please answer it with YOUR opinion?  This question has divided Christianity so I understand why you feel it might be a wrong question.

For me, I believe God gave us His Word (Jesus and Scripture) as a standard to live by.  The Bible is His law that we are to obey.  Each of us must develop our own relationship with God through Jesus Christ, the Word, the Bible.  Ultimately, each one of us individually is accountable to God for everything we do.  Our God is a loving and merciful God.  Our God is also a just God.  We're commanded to study the Scriptures to show ourselves approved.  We can't do this without reasoning.  Many people would claim that different interpretations of God's Word is just reasoning and is not really God's Word.  I think that's contradictory because they came to their interpretation through studying (reasoning).  I understand that we must ask the Holy Spirit to breathe on us as we read the Scriptures.  Most of us here at CU believe ALL the Bible is the Word of God.  I do.  The problem is the different interpretations of God's Word.  Here's where the debates come in.  Some like them and some don't (debates).  Because of the different interpretations, each side cites their verses to prove their point, it created different denominations.  Or, as I put it------------DIS------EASES in the Body of Christ.

None of us like to admit we might be blinded to some truths.  None of us see that we're being self-righteous at times.  Sift through some of the posts, even our own to have light shed.

Again, the original question-----------I think (just MO) that Matt:18:34 hints.  Yes, we are forgiven but there are consequences to sin.  Maybe our loss of reward means we'll be sent to the mansion Jesus prepares for us until we become pure (1John talks about purity).  We will SEE Him when we are LIKE Him.  If we die in sin, we aren't LIKE Him.  

Well now, I'm guilty of being too wordy myself.

Grace and peace,
cris

[Shammu]

Romans 8:16 tells us: "The Spirit Himself testifies together with our own spirit, that we are children of God." First and foremost, we have the unshakable testimony from within us! The indwelling Holy Spirit of God constantly reassures us that we belong to Jesus Christ.

The entire book of First John was written as a "test" for determining the reality of salvation. Verse three of Chapter one tells us: "What we have seen and [ourselves] heard we are also telling you, so that you too may realize and enjoy fellowship as partners and partakers with us. And fellowship that we have (which is a distinguishing mark of Christians) is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ, the Messiah." The fellowship enjoyed by genuine Christians is proof positive of salvation. Those who claim Christ, but yet rarely attend church to worship God and associate with other believers, are possibly fooling themselves! A backslidden Christian can stay out of church and away from other believers, but I can guarantee you from first-hand experience that there will never be a time when you will be comfortable with it! On the other side of the coin, verse 8 teaches us that if we deny the existence of sin within us, the Truth is not in us. Verse 3 of Chapter two teaches us that we are genuine and "growing in grace and knowledge of Christ", if we keep His commandments. Verse 10 teaches us that we are of Christ if we love the brethren. Again, those who habitually absent themselves from God's house and do not make it clear that they love being around God's children, are very likely to be tares and not wheat. Verse 15 teaches us that if anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. "Worldly Christians" is almost a contradiction in terms and those who claim Christ, but yet cling to the value system of this world-are suspect.

1 John 5:13 informs us that the entire Book of 1 John was written so that we can know that we possess eternal life in Christ. Do you know for absolute certainty that, if you were to die tonight, you would go to Heaven?

The Word of God teaches that the Bible is incomprehensible to the "natural man"-the unsaved individual. It is a spiritual book and the unsaved person is not only spiritually blind, but 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us that he "is incapable" of knowing that which is spiritually discerned. Do you understand the Bible? Does it make sense to you and speak to your heart? Does it convict you of your sin and teach you the right way?

The Bible is very clear that an unregenerate individual will not seek God Rom.3:11. Are you painfully aware of your sinful nature and cry out to God from your heart for forgiveness when you sin? If so, this is one of the signs of having been born again.

Is your soul, your conscience, sorely vexed when you see sin in the culture around you? When you see blatant sin in public, or on TV, or in Entertainment, or anywhere else you encounter it, do you feel a severe vexation in your spirit? The Bible says of Lot, who was foolish enough to live and do business in Sodom: "God delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)" 2 Peter 2:7-8

The Bible says that an unregenerate individual is a slave of Satan and incapable of doing anything about it Eph.2:2 Have other people seen the "fruit of the Spirit" at work in your life? That is, can they see genuine love, joy, peace, long-suffering, etc., Gal.5:22, being wrought in and through you by God's Holy Spirit? Do they sense that you are a different person from the one you used to be?

Resting in the Lord.
Bob

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

[Audax]

Glad the thread's picked up some life.  Some great posts from all.  

Cris, I'm sorry I really have trouble answering the question not just because it divides the body of Christ but because if I choose either answer I feel I'll be unfaithful to one Scripture or another that states the opposite in it's natural reading.  How can I answer?  This is precisely why I define a Christian ultimately as seen in my above post from Heb. 3.  I hope that's an answer in itself though I do feel bad for coping out of the theological debate on this specific issue but I just can't answer it.  

Anyway, whatever I felt I needed to say, I've mostly already said it.  I appreciate your questions and if I thought I could answer I truly would.  Why don't you take one of the other poster's answers and continue from there, since I realize my position leads to a dead end with it.  Though I do feel my answer is an answer.  

Specifically with assurance, I totally agree with the above post about it and I appreciate that.  There are many means by which we can have assurance but if I have assurance today and as a result, tomorrow go out and live like hell, and I don't turn away from it, then I have to question those subjective feelings I originally had.  Some passages such as Heb. 6, or 10 seem pretty forward with warning for those who have a false assurance.  This is also why the statement, "Do not be deceived" preceeds many a hard passage for us to accept in its natural meaning.  We want to skip hop or jump around what it obviously states.  I say that sincerely because I really believe that much of our theology often blinds us to what Scripture really has to say.  

But having said that, I am not up to spending my time even saying what I mean by this.  I want it to stand alone.  I don't feel it's my purpose at this time.  I just offer some sincere advise to anyone interested.  Read Scripture for what it says and don't allow yourself to be blinded from its straightforward meaning by what others have said it means or by what they refuse to see it means.  Don't dodge Scripture.  A person's systematic theology is the single biggest factor in determining his "exegesis" that there is.  Exegetical preaching is often just an illusion.  Greek doesn't clarify things that much and hard study in one passage doesn't usually go very far to changing one's assumptions.  The independent Baptists see what they see and are convinced they're right.  That's understandable.  I grew up in  GARBC Independent Baptist church myself.  They thought the other churches in town weren't even churches at all.  The Reformed see things the way they see them and are convinced they're right and that the Dispensationalists are full of mud.  The Pentecostals think that half the church is pretty blind to not see how obvious it is that the spiritual gifts have continued.  I believe there's a lot of sincerity on most sides.  Just a lot of disagreements too.  I'm interested in understanding why and that's what a lot of my earlier posts address.  Don't allow yourself to become blinded by your theology and say that Scripture supports it, when in reality you've only learned how to best support it from Scripture and how to deal with the passages that don't seem to agree with it.

As you well point out Cris.  Each side quotes their own Scriptures.  The goal here is this: To deal fairly with all of the passages involved.  I feel that's very possible, but it may require some radical questioning, as you're doing.  Keep studying and thinking.  Get such a handle on the Scriptures themselves that the systematic theology flows from them naturally rather than from the theological books that somehow are supposed to define orthodoxy for us or our own group.  Scripture alone defines the truth.

Ben

Ben    

[cris]

Audax,

I guess this ends our discussion.  Couldn't even get to my SECOND question.  

Grace and peace,
cris
 

[AVBunyan]

Cris,

I just spent two hours or more, writing out a long reply to your questions.  When I sought to submit it I lost everything because it was, "too long."  I'm sorry I lost it but I don't have another two hours to give to it right now.  Here's the short answer without all the details and passages from half the NT to back it up.  

Hi Ben - just a suggestion - when I know I will be writing out a long response I NEVER write it initially from the Reply on the forum - I write the reply outside of the Forum in a word doc.  I do this for several reasons:
1. Don't want to lose it - like you did.
2. Gives me time to go back a reflect and make sure my thoughts are what they should be without being "under the gun".

After proof reading and and rethinkingn then I cut and paste the doc into the Forum Reply.

Hope this helps.

God bless  

[Audax]

AVBunyan,

Thanks, that's a darn good idea.  I'll certainly do that next time.  That wasn't fun loosing all that work but it's ok.  Welcome back to the forum from your abscence.

God bless,  Ben