Speaking in Tongues?

[Jemidon2004]

Greetings from College!!!

Well i got all settled in at college now...so I have some time to write out a response.

One thing I want to clarify right quick. My reference to Ephesians 4 was not in direct reference to the gift of tongues. Yet, indirect. It doesn't say anything specifically about tongues...however I should have clarified the specific verses I was using when is aid Ephesians 4. The reason I bring up Ephesians 4 is to show the diversities of the gifts, and the simple fact that not everyone has the same gifts that God has given out. Just like not everyone has the same natural talents that we have, not everyone will have the same gifts. If we did, we'd all be one body part and the rest of the body would suffer.

Now onto another part I want to clarify. Bairn quoted me on my statement about self edification. If you will note, the context I was using that in was self pride, which happens when we as men think we can do things apart from God. See it's not about me or you or anyone else, it's about God. We are merely His vessels when it comes to Ministry. That is what we should be. Hence why I said, that my view was that they have ceased for the most part was due to the fact that man has abused the gift and twisted it to make it their own. I have no such gift. I am strong enough in my walk to be aware of what gifts I have and what gifts I do not have. Through Bible study the Lord has shown me that tongues are simply not my gift. I did not come to this conclusion without Prayer and preparation. I came to it with God's guidance. I know that I do not have that gift and I rest in the comfort of k nowing that God is preparing me for something different than focusing on the gifts that He gives.

Thank you Blue lake for confirming what I was saying about the spiritual pride. It's self righteousness. Jude says to build ourselves up you are correct, however, we build ourselves up through study of God's Word and fellowship with His people, not by speaking in tongues. Did not God say that He resists the proud but gives more grace to the humble and will exalt the humble in James 4:6 and verse 10? Self edification in the usage I used was denoting pride, not spiritual edification that God gives to us when He is bringing us through trials or temptations. That is completely different from the usage I used a few posts ago. Tongues is not for the edification of the believer...since it is a gift of SERVICE to God...as all of the gifts are. Tongues are for the unbeliever, so that they may be communicated the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ in their own language should it be impossible for man himself within his own language to present the Gospel.

Malky, most will direct you back to Pentacost as to where the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is concerned. They will claim that one becomes saved and is THEN baptised with the Holy Spirit when they ask for it. That's simply not Scriptural. It happens at Salvation. This baptism is something that happens when you accept Christ as Lord and Savior. This is evidenced plainly in Ephesians 1:13. The Seal of the Holy Spirit is that baptism, whereby we know that we are saved through the Holy Spirit of God, not by the gifts that God gives us. Those who err on side of saying that tongues are a sign of salvation especially need prayer. Here is what I found a few minutes ago.

Quotation from Baker's Dictionary of Theology

Yet another spiritual gift is mentioned by Paul. The Spirit gives 'kinds of tongues' (1 Cor 12:10, 28). The nature of this gift is explained in 1 Cor 14. (a) The tongues in which the person spoke was unintelligible, and therefore unedifying to the Christian assembly (vss. 2-4); (b) The tongue (Glossa) was not a foreign language (phone, vss. 10-12); (c) The tongue-speaker addressed himself to God to whom he probably offered prayer and praise (vss. 14-17); (d) The tongue edified the speaker (vs. 4); (e) The tongue-speaker lost control of intellectual faculties. (vss 14-15), the tongue being probably a disjointed, highly pitched, ecstatic series of ejaculations, similar to the tongues spoken in times of spiritual awakening experienced intermittently by the Church.

           Obviously, then, the gift of interpretation of tongues (1 Cor 12:10, 30) was a necessary corollary to speaking in tongues, as was the "discerning of spirits" to the prophet's speaking by revelation. The tongue-speaker might also exercise the gift of interpreting tongues (1 Cor. 14:13), by usually others exercised it (vss. 26-28;12:10); though Paul's advice in 1 Cor 14:13 is interesting. This would imply that giving meaning to unmeaningful ecstatic ejaculations as an art critic interprets a play, a symphony, or a cnvas to the uninitiated; though the tongue-interpeter did not depend on natural knowledge (14:13).

      In instructing Christians on the exercise of these gifts Paul is concerned to stress their practical nature. The Spirit bestows his charismata for the edification of the CHURCH, the formation of Christian character, and the service of the community. The reception of a spiritual gift, therefore, brought serious responsibility, since it was essentially an opportunity for self-giving in sacrificial service for others.

Just thought i'd add that in to clarify what I am trying to say. It is 12:39 AM my time and it's time for me to go to bed, so i'll give you my comments on Romans 8:26-27. God Bless

Joshua

[ZakDar]

Jude says to build ourselves up you are correct, however, we build ourselves up through study of God's Word and fellowship with His people, not by speaking in tongues.

I think this is an error my friend. For the Word plainly says that whoever speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself, (1 Cor. 14:4).

The bible also says that he who prophsies edifies the church.

The bible also says love edifies, but knowledge puffs up, (1 Cor. 8:1).

So we can see that there are all kinds of ways to edify both oneself, and others.

So to make the statement that speaking in tongues does not edify oneself is unbelief in the Word of God.

This is the mistake here: If your measure of light does not permit you to believe or understand speaking in tongues, then so be it. I don't have a problem with folks whose faith is not there yet. But to say that the Word of God is not true is not correct.

Why not just stay silent on the issue? Perhaps in the future God will lead you to that point where tongues will be acceptable to you. I know myself that more and more is revealed to me as I continue in not just the Word of God, but more importantly in the LOVE of God.

So if you don't understand what you see in the Word, don't dispute. This is truly counter-productive. Rather, continue to walk in the love of God, and you will continue to edify.


Num 6:24  The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
Num 6:25  The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
Num 6:26  The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

[ZakDar]

There is much said about the gift of tongues in 1st Corinthians chapters 12-14.  Read these chapters over.  This explains what might be going on in some churches today.  However, some people want this gift so badly, they become good at faking it.  They just babble and disrupt the worship service.  There should be someone to translate and only one person should be speaking at a time.  

Acts 2 tells about the Apostles receiving the gift and being able to speak with people hearing them in their own language.   This seems more useful to me.  I haven't heard about that happening in any church today.  Some people do indeed have a gift for learning to speak foreign languages and speak well in public.  

I don't see any reference to tongues in Ephesians 4.  

Actually, tongues is the first evidence when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit. Read Acts and look up all the references to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Here's some excerpts:

Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The episode of Cornelius - note that the gift is the Holy Ghost, not tongues. Note that verse 46 is the evidence to Peter that the Gentiles received the baptism of the Spirit.

Act 10:45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

This one reveals that there is a separate baptism of the Holy Spirit, apart from water baptism.

Act 19:5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6  And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Now for the gift of tongues.

This is found in 1 Cor. chapter 12.

1Co 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

These are the 9 gifts or manifestations of the Holy Spirit. These are special gifts bestowed upon believers for the edification of the body of Christ. They are NOT for the individual through whom the gift is manifesting. Rather, that peson is the vessel that the Holy Spirit is using at that particular moment. And note, it is the Holy Spirit who manifest as He wills, not as the vessel wills.

But the vessel is still very important to the Holy Spirit because He cannot or will not manifest His gifts without a yielding vessel. So the vessel will have to BELIEVE before he can be used by the Spirit to manifest the gifts through Him.

One last note: It's not so much as we, as vessels are being USED by the Holy Spirit. No, it's more appropriate to say that we are working together with the Holy Spirit to achieve His goals.

Hope this helps to explain things a bit better for you. There's lots more to dig into on this subject, so get to it! LOL!!

[Soldier4Christ]

Actually, tongues is the first evidence when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit. Read Acts and look up all the references to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Do I understand you correctly to be saying if a person does not speak in tongues that they have not been baptised with the Holy Spirit?

[ZakDar]

Actually, tongues is the first evidence when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit. Read Acts and look up all the references to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Do I understand you correctly to be saying if a person does not speak in tongues that they have not been baptised with the Holy Spirit?

Yes. Tongues is the evidence that someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit. But that does NOT mean that a born again believer does not have the Holy Spirit residing in them. When one is born again, they receive the Holy Spirit - He comes and lives inside us.

The baptism with "fire", however, is a separate and unique experience, with tongues the evidence of the event.

[Jemidon2004]

You completely overlooked the reason why I said what i did. If man seeks to build himself up by HIMSELF, he will be knocked down a few notches. I in no way said the Word was not true. You my friend are putting words into my mouth. Actually, when I made my statement I was making it from experience. Re-read what i've written, i clarified in my last post why I said that. It is due to man's PRIDE. How is it a seperate experience? From my understanding of the Word and specifically the context of Baptism, when one accepts Jesus Christ and is born again, they are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. Is Not baptism a sealing? I've been baptised with fire...it happened when i was born again. However TONGUES are not my gift. It's not due to a lack of Christian maturity or even a lack of being baptised by fire, it is due to the simple fact that i do not have those gifts. God did not impart to me the gift of tongues and contrary to mainstream thinking, NOT ALL THE GIFTS ARE AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE. Each one is given a gift that God deems necessary and He equips them to do HIS service, not our own. Which, again, is why i said, "If everyone had the same gift the Body would be crippled. There would be one ministry instead of different parts of the Body. This is a discussion forum so i'm free to place any input I wish and I have, and have defended my position more than once in more than one thread. Please do not presume that I am not at that place. I am not where I would like to be, neither is anyone in this board or anywhere in the world. We'll never be to the point in our walks that we desire so dearly to be, but I will say this: God has given me enough desire to study His Word and I thirst for it dearly. So i'm learning every day...my faith is not in question here. The discussion of the Gifts are...don't turn it into something else please. I pray that this finds you in high spirits and everything I say has been in a cool tone. I am in no way angry or distressed about what has been written, but I will step up and clarify when it is needed. This is one such time. Consider this a friendly note. God Bless

Joshua

[Reba]

Actually, tongues is the first evidence when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit. Read Acts and look up all the references to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Do I understand you correctly to be saying if a person does not speak in tongues that they have not been baptised with the Holy Spirit?

Yes. Tongues is the evidence that someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit. But that does NOT mean that a born again believer does not have the Holy Spirit residing in them. When one is born again, they receive the Holy Spirit - He comes and lives inside us.

The baptism with "fire", however, is a separate and unique experience, with tongues the evidence of the event.

What are the scriptures that tell us 'tongues is the evidence of the baptism with fire'?

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Jemidon!

We are told that we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost when we accept Christ as our Saviour.

Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This verse is not talking of baptism of the Holy Ghost. Baptism for the remission of sins was the baptism of water.

Mar 1:4  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

The following verses clearly state that we will not all have the same gifts and why this is so.

Heb 2:4  God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Rom 12:5  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7  Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8  Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

[Reba]

Acts 8:15-19

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
KJV

[ZakDar]

Sorry Jem, but you must explain these statements you made:

Tongues is not for the edification of the believer

Jude says to build ourselves up you are correct, however, we build ourselves up through study of God's Word and fellowship with His people, not by speaking in tongues.

It clearly states in the Bible that a believer who speaks in tongues, edifies himself. The Spirit of the living God wrote that, not me.

I think you are taking "the gift" tongues out of context.

Lets look at some versions of the appropriate text:

1Co 12:10  to another, the performing of miracles, to another, prophecy, to another, distinguishing between spirits, to another, different kinds of languages, to another, interpretation of languages. (Holman)

1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (KJV)

10 To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues. (Amp)

So you see, the "gift" of tongues, (and interpretation), for the edification of the church isthe ability to speak MULTIPLE unknown languages. Most Christians who speak in tongues, speak only one unknown language.

So lets review.

The "gift" for the born again believer is the Holy Spirit. I stated that previously.

There is a separate, unique incident for the believer to speak in tongues. In my circles they call it the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Others call it receiving the manifestaion of the Holy Spirit. Regardless of what it is called, it is something from the Holy Spirit that is available to every Christian. All it takes is faith to receive it.

Since the Bible clearly says that speaking in an unknown language DOES edify the believer, then I believe it is something that we should take advantage of. How are we to come into the fullness of God if we don't make use of all His provisions?

Let me give a personal experience to illustrate how tongues is useful in my walk with the Almighty. When I'm in church, and we are praising and worhsipping, I get to a point within my spirit that speaking praises in English just doesn't justify my love for God that wells up inside me.

So then I can speak in tongues and/or sing in tongues so my spirit can express to God what the English language just doesn't have to express what is in my spirit.

This same thing happens when I'm doing devotional prayers. Sometimes the English language just doesn't have the words I need to express to God what is in my spirit, and needs to be released.

Consider this scripture:

Rom 8:26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (KJV)

Rom 8:26  In the same way the Spirit also joins to help in our weakness, because we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with unspoken groanings. (Holman)

26 So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance. (AMP)

So then, whhen we become born again, and receive the Holy Spirit, we have the ability to speak in tongues, if we have the faith.

This personal unknown language is NOT the ministry gift for the edification of the church, but rather for the edification of the believer.

It is a manifestaion of the indwelling Spirit in the believer, and edifies the believer.

Oh, one thing I want to add, and it alludes to something you wrote which is quite valid. The ability of tongues for the believer MUST BE DONE IN LOVE!!!!!!!!!

This scripture makes that quite clear:

1Co 13:1  If I speak the languages of men and of angels, but do not have love, I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (Holman)

1Co 13:1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (KJV)

1 IF I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. (AMP)

Any and all Christians who speak in tongues should read that section in 1 Corinthians, chapters 12-14, several times so they can understand how tongues should be used within their personal sphere. The Corinthians, who ALL spoke in tongues, had a problem with abuse of tongues. The Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, set things straight for them, and also for us.

Anyways, peace my brother. I love you, and wish nothing but God's glorious best for you. But I recommend not saying tongues is gone and done away with.

Num 6:24  The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
Num 6:25  The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
Num 6:26  The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

[Jemidon2004]

It appears as if we are hitting on different cylinders here. Serviceto God without humility is not really service at all. I'm sure you will agree with me there. If not we got a serious problem. Keep in mind i've been coming from the pride vs. humility angle...which most often gets overlooked. Hence why I said that it's not God's intention that the believer be edified but that God be glorified. Isn't the original purpose of tongues to share the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ? It's clear to me that that purpose has been twisted. However that's my own personal opinion. As for my personal opinion, I never said they were completely gone, but I had hoped to get across that they are gone for the most part because many are prideful because they 'supposedly' speak in tongues and no one else can. I've seen churches who "teach" how to speak in tongues...this is impossible. The only class I can think of that comes close to it is French, English, German, and any other language that's spoken in today's world. Just a few thoughts...take them or leave them.  The only thing that matters is that Jesus Christ is shared with the lost, that God is glorified while doing it and doing it  HUMILITY. That's the key here. 99% of those i've spoken to who claim to have the gift of tongues have an issue with pride as well, and i've spoken to quite a few. God Bless

Joshua

[Reba]

Jemidon,

As far as this reader is concerened you did explain your self in fact i understood from your first post.

50 years ago i saw and understood the arrogance of SOME of those who speak in tongues. I read such in ZakDar's post. I could be missreading but i doubt it The below quote is the give away...

"This is the mistake here: If your measure of light does not permit you to believe or understand speaking in tongues, then so be it. I don't have a problem with folks whose faith is not there yet. ...]

Your posts Jem have been very good and well thought out...One scripture i keep in mind about this topic is...I know many wonderfull tounge talking folks..

1 Cor 14:39

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
KJV

[cris]

Acts 8: 14-19

14.  Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word from God, they sent to them Peter and John.

15.  On their arrival they prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit;  

16.  for as yet He had not come upon any of them, but they had only been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus.

17.  Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

18. But when Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money,

19.  saying, "Give me also this power, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."




Verse 18.............Obviously Simon saw/or heard something.   What did he see/hear?  Tongues?  Was tongues here the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit?




PS  Could a moderator correct the spelling of TONGUES in this thread?



 

[Soldier4Christ]

PS  Could a moderator correct the spelling of TONGUES in this thread?

You don't want much, do you?  

[cris]

PS  Could a moderator correct the spelling of TONGUES in this thread?

You don't want much, do you?  

I'm ROFL, PR.  That misspelling drives me crazy every time I see it.  I just had to ask...........for the sake of sanity.  I must add, I do my share of misspelling, too!