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Jemidon2004
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2005, 08:18:45 AM »

I reckon i'll throw my two cents in here for a few minutes...if it's worth much Wink I see the debate between liberalism and fundamentalism and i find that there is a basic difference between doctrine and the soundness of this doctrine. So often liberal christians find it easier to dis-obey God's words and they find it a lot easier to stray, yet find themselves back on track miraculously. Silver: I agree with your synopsis of what a fundamentalist Christian is. And Felix...i see where you are coming from. However, to both of you, to each his own. There will always be differing opinions, however, in Scripture there are certain truths that are prevalent and that we ALL need to agree on. Instead we bicker about what is doctrinated and what is Truth.

Darrelx: I saw your post about "Semi-Calvinist-Conservative-Christian me" signing off...I found that kind of interesting. That describes me to a letter. Some of the doctrine I agree with is a bit calvinistic in view...however, I try to make sure that what I say in terms of Scripture, lines up with God's Word. If that makes me a fundamentalist, then so be it. That's just a label people are just going to have to apply. I've come across some findamentalists who are the most awesome teachers of the Word of God i've ever seen. Also Darrel...I don't think he's telling you to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, considering when you became a Christian you were baptised and sealed with the Holy Spirit...re-read Ephesians 1:13.

Oh, and Felix...your underlying message, just taking a shot in the dark, are you talking about adherance to God's Word and making sure that whenever one studies God's Word, that he/she applies it to their lives and in doing that they please God? That's what I get from that statement. However, that's not the only thing. I don't wanna discuss it, cause i don't wanna take Darell's answer away from him Smiley. Like always, I'm going to deposit my two cents into the rice bowl and be on my merry little way. I may wander back and read and respond again. Re-read my signature...and think about it. Smiley God Bless

Joshua

p.s. for Bible fundamentalism...I think you guys know the answer to that based on my post.  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2005, 06:54:31 PM »

Oh, and Felix...your underlying message, just taking a shot in the dark, are you talking about adherance to God's Word and making sure that whenever one studies God's Word, that he/she applies it to their lives and in doing that they please God?
Joshua

p.s. for Bible fundamentalism...I think you guys know the answer to that based on my post.  Grin

Well thats how I see it as walking in the spirit, since the word off God was written by the Holy Spirit so that we may learn from the scriptures to walk in the spirit as well as Get to Know God in the trinity.
I don't believe that this can be done without a knowledge off Gods word.
I still dont quite know were Felix is coming from, if he is saying that fine if he is saying that there is another way all I'll say is, "Good luck with that!" -lol


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felix102
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« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2005, 03:05:20 AM »

Quote
Oh, and Felix...your underlying message, just taking a shot in the dark, are you talking about adherance to God's Word and making sure that whenever one studies God's Word, that he/she applies it to their lives and in doing that they please God?

Yes. But to an extent that is even greater. Let me tell you one thing. It is not a strict adherance but a very very very strict adherance to God's Word. It is taking the Word as it is and ONLY as it is. Many people are quick to rationalize things that they dont understand. Things like the heart, mind, soul and spirit. These are things that are not easily understood but are ever so real. They are not metaphors or figurative devices!!! They are real and are applied just as the Word of God says!

Quote
However, that's not the only thing. I don't wanna discuss it

Yes, there is more. Maybe you know it brother. If you do share with us! Your above statement is not the main point; this thing is something that even the world can accept. Anyone can read a book and apply the teachings of it to their lives. Anyone can adhere to anything to please their gods. The bible, the Word of God, is different. Not only is it the truth, but it goes far beyond that.


Does someone know how reading the bible is eating from the tree of life? What can the bible give you that other books cant?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Understand that the WORD was GOD...

John 6:53-57
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at teh last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Now here is a monumental revelation...

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The WORDS I have spoken to you are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit.

So Jesus was the Word of God in the beginning and then when He died and resurrected he became a life-giving spirit. A LIFE-giving spirit. Those who eat of Him(Word of God) will have eternal life. The WORDS I have spoken to you are SPIRIT and they are LIFE. For we do not eat of His physical flesh for "flesh counts for nothing". We eat the bread that gives life. Which one is that? Look at John 6:63.

Quote
since the word off God was written by the Holy Spirit so that we may learn from the scriptures to walk in the spirit as well as Get to Know God in the trinity.
I don't believe that this can be done without a knowledge off Gods word.


So yes brother, that is true. Notice specifically what I quoted from you however. Here is a question. How is it that Satan can quote scripture for his purpose? What is Satan thinking? Surely just knowing the scriptures, which are Truth, will not stop him from lying.

It is the direction of the mind.

Romans 8:6
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace


so with this I will tell a personal story that you may be able to relate to. At last, everything can come together and be more clear...not now though, I have to go.


1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.



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« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2005, 09:14:10 PM »

I think I get what you are saying...
I agree with everything that you said there (And who am I not to) But eating the flesh and drinking the blood as Spurgeon putts is his flesh broken on the cross and his blood poured forth for our redemption and so off eating his flesh and drinking his blood is believing the Gospel and so if you dont believe in the gospel (which I know everyone here does) you can have no life in you.
I would think that the scriptures are the water off life that comes forth from heaven since they are divinely inspired and may we drink off it as much as it does quench our thirst for the living God who wrote it.

Amen.

PS: I cant wait to hear you story.
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2005, 09:37:51 PM »

Good luck with that!-lol

Silver, how can one be forgiven for suicide?

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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2005, 12:08:23 AM »

Well I should have pointed out that I fully believe in our first parents Adam and Eve, if not than when Paul said, through one man sin came etc that would be a lie and the whole idea off us being sinners a lie.
In fact when ever I see two couples together I am reminded off my first parents and am also reminded off the fact that we are all related through them being their offspring, every man is your brother, every woman your sister and when you see that (And I am not saying that you dont) than it is easier to treat them as such.
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2005, 04:36:36 PM »

Hi folks. If I may be allowed to interject.

Quite a long time ago, I had to come to grips with some gnawing questions concerning the Bible, and what it says.  As a reasonably intelligent person ( I know to come in out of the rain...unless I'm fishin'!), and one who likes to find answers, I found myself beginning to question the pervasive idea among the intelligentsia and academics concerning the ephemeral nature of the Bible.  According to post-modern thought, and "higher criticism", it was dangerous to be too literal with what was written, and we "really need to examine the intended spiritual applications of these non-historical events..."

For awhile, it was a good exercise in mental gymnastics....bend this, fracture that, re-combine the essence of that thought and this thought, etc.

Unfortunately, I began to see that not only was this kind of exercise unfruitful in finding answers, it propagates the exact mindset that scripture is intended to combat.

All humanity desires, even if they don't recognize it, a measure of stability...an anchor point of some kind that is capable of standing up to, and overcoming any kind of storm, or problem, that may come against it. In other words, man wants to know.....TRUTH.  That's Truth with a capital T, Truth that is unchanging, immutable, and impeccable.

Does such Truth exist? Or is truth something that is subject to change or re-interpretation according to circumstance, or how modern or intelligent or learned we become?

If truth is subject to change, then it cannot possibly meet any reasonable definition of what truth is. This kind of truth could better be described as situational, in flux, constantly changing according to the whims or dictates of anyone and everyone according to whats going on.....and that does not seem to be any truth at all.

Truth must be absolute, and if not, it needs to be called something else. When I'm 95, I NEED to be able to KNOW that 2+3=5, EXACTLY as it did when I learned of it at the age of 5.  

As it applies to God, and to His Word, lets examine a couple of things. Either God is absolute, or He cannot be God.  Anything less than absolute would render God not worthy of being called God.  Anything less than absolute perfection would then imply less than perfection, and therefore not worthy of being considered God....unless, of course, your concept of God is that He's the  same as your next door neighbor.  Would you call your neighbor God?

God gives us a few clues to go by in the Bible, in terms of determining how absolute He might be.

Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Well, He tells us here that He is not like us, and because of that, He doesn't have to (or will) lie. He leaves that up to us imperfect men to do.  He also says that He is not one of our kids, who is required to turn away from childish activity, or horse-play, or mistake making.  He also says that when He says a thing, He does it. Period.

OK, so God is not a liar; when He speaks, what He speaks comes to pass, and He guarantees it.

Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Ahhhh,....one step further. Not only does He not lie, and what He says happens, He tells us that He DOES NOT change from day to day, or circumstance to circumstance.  No situational ethics with Him.  Black and white, no gray, and it doesn't matter what era, eon, year, century, epoch or dispensation we're in.  He is the same through them all.

Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Same thing again, right? No change.....immutable.....solid as a rock.....

So we begin to see a pattern, and that pattern is that what God speaks is, to all intents and purposes, unchanging, and unchangeable.

Next we see that over the years, He did speak a few things, and those things were written down.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It's important to note that the words "given by inspiration" is, in the Greek, theopneustos. From theo, meaning God, and neustos, for breathing, we then have "God breathed."  Another way of saying that God spoke the words.

2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here Peter makes it known in no uncertain terms that selected (by God) holy men spoke (or wrote) AS they were moved by God through the Holy Spirit, and spoke or wrote the things that God was "breathing out,".....in other words, they were an instrument speaking on behalf of God.  Please not that in vs. 20, the words "private interpretation" are "idios epilusis," and should best be rendered as "personal unloosening".  These men did not speak of or by themselves.

Finally, Jesus said:
Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Summed up all together, it seems that what we have is direction that what God has said (prophecy->scripture) is truth, with a capital T....and that Truth is immutable...not subject to change.

Every reasonable and thinking person alive who approaches the Word of God can recognize that over the millennia, copyists and scribes have introduced some errors in words and translations....but the existence of those errors are considered very minor, actually being less than 1/5 of 1% of ALL the words in the Bible.

It is also being shown more and more that the scoffers and nay-sayers of the "higher criticism" group who like to claim that the Bible is not historically accurate are being proven wrong on almost a daily basis.

 We can make a choice. We can choose to believe that what God has said, and caused to be written down IS His word, and therefore inviolable, and unchanging. If we do, we can then "take it to the bank!", or hang our hat on it.  If we don't, then we are left with the unenviable task of trying to figure out what it "really" means, and to apply our OWN interpretation....and that then becomes an entirely subjective approach, dependent upon our own whims, desires, leanings, emotions and faults....and those might change tomorrow!

I like what Jesus said about John the Baptist, when He asked the people "what did you come out for to see?  a reed shaken in the wind?"

I like being able to have something to hold on to, that won't change, that gives me stability, and an anchor.  Without it, then my life is just like the house on shifting sand...................

Guess I'm a fundy.  Grin
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« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2005, 08:28:37 PM »

That was beautiful man- Cry
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2005, 02:01:09 AM »

I think I get what you are saying...
I agree with everything that you said there (And who am I not to) But eating the flesh and drinking the blood as Spurgeon putts is his flesh broken on the cross and his blood poured forth for our redemption and so off eating his flesh and drinking his blood is believing the Gospel and so if you dont believe in the gospel (which I know everyone here does) you can have no life in you.
I would think that the scriptures are the water off life that comes forth from heaven since they are divinely inspired and may we drink off it as much as it does quench our thirst for the living God who wrote it.

Amen.

PS: I cant wait to hear you story.


Brother, you'll have to look back at john 6:48 and read to verse 63. Jesus said that he was the "Bread of life." And then He tells his disciples that it is "The Spirit that gives life; the flesh counts for nothing." You see, Jesus's flesh was first the Word of God (John 1:1). But then after his death and ressurection he became a Life-giving Spirit. In the beginning He was word and then in the end He became a Life giving spirit. It's very confusing still to me but this is how the Word of God is spirit and life to us.

Yes, the bread of life is the gospel which is the Word of God. But again look at verse 63, "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life."

We eat of Jesus's flesh by eating the Word of God. This includes the gospel. "My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." This is like milk for a newborn infant. But what about us older Christians? What's an aspect of eating? We eat to grow! We keep eating of it. They are spirit and they are life. Again I emphasize, His words are spirit. Notice that Jesus did not say, "the words are intellectually satisfying (mind)" or "the words are physically stimulating (body)" but are spirit...and they are life. This is very important.

I am weary about my personal testimony. It is long and I do not have the stamina in writing(sound ackward but I just dont). My mind keeps taking over wanting to tell you the things I want but I know I need to write the things that God wants. I'll pray to God about it and see what His will for me is.
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2005, 10:21:49 PM »

I believe the Bible fully,but here's what scaries me the most.
My Uncle and I where driving home from church and we were talking and he told me the scariest thing!!!!!!!You know how the Bible was rewrote so many times.Well some hebrew couldn't be translated over so some is missing there.Then people who recopy the Bible TAKE THINGS OUT OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really couldn't believe it at one time they were going to take out the book "Revelations" BECAUSE IT WAS TO VIOLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!Now I'm scaried I'm missing some important thing,but I don't think God would let that happen.Would he?
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2005, 02:52:46 AM »

I don't think it's time yet for me to write the personal testimony. I sort of think it would go off topic cause there are just so many things to be said about it that doesn't all pertain to bible reading.


I thought I'd share this instead to further the understanding of our "bread of life" the living and abiding Word of God.

Do any of you pray the Golden Prayer?

"Hallowed by thy name
Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven
Give us today our daily bread..."

Many would think that this is physical nourishment. It's even better than that! Is it just bread for the body?

Consider what Jesus said to Satan while He was tempted in the desert...
Jesus said, "Man shall not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

The Word of God is the bread of life! This is our daily bread! Consider this also...
When God created man God breathed into the nostrils of the form and it became a living soul. Now why then is scripture called "God-breathed."

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

The greek translation is "breathed". All scripture is God breathed. It does not say God-written, God-said, God-commanded but God-breathed.

The Word is spirit and life!
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2005, 04:29:08 PM »

Interesting, you are right felix...all Scripture is God-breathed. I pray the Disciple's prayer when we have the Lord's supper, but that's the only time I pray it. Mostly I go to God with my petitions like He's my father, and is sitting right next to me. I'm glad you called it something that the "Lord's Prayer" It amazes me how this is taught in Sunday School that this is the true Lord's Prayer. This prayer in no way embodies all of Christ's teachings about prayer and communion with the Father. Now JOhn 17 does all of the above. Notice Jesus said "Pray Ye: Our Father, which art in heaven." Jesus said "You pray..." Not I pray. Just thought I'd throw that in there. And Shemaya your uncle needs to re-read his history, because they've translated all of the Hebrew, there isn't anything such as untranslated hebrew. It's all there, and it's all been translated. And you're right some people do take away Revelation...however, if they do, they are doing a grave danger, because they choose to ignore Jesus' warning in chapter 23 i believe. Just a few thoughts. God Bless

Joshua
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2005, 01:06:31 AM »

Brothers and Sisters,

God is so wonderful and loving. God seeks to be with you. This is His desire.


Bible fundamentalism and liberalism are not necessarily bad things. From a mindly sort of view I can say that not each group is always correct as there are some scripture that is figurative and some that is literal. But where is the Truth? Not the truth, but the Truth. There is only one. We have the Spirit of Truth.

There are many Brothers and Sisters who have found bible studying to be dry and ineffective. This is because scripture is being exercised ONLY by the mind. For scripture to become life and spirit to us we must pray over them. This is how you exercise your spirit.

Brothers and Sisters, You all must know that the bible is the Word of God. His Words are eternal. His Words are spirit and life. (pat on the back for whoever digs up these verses and puts them on here). This is what the bible says. This is what the Word of God says. But, we often overlook this essential thing in our Christ lives.

What we must do is pray over each verse we read. Meditate on it throughout the day; say it to God. By this the Word will be transformed from the letter (which kills) to spirit (which gives life).


God is so loving and desires us to dwell in Him and enjoy Him.
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2005, 09:23:49 AM »

Bible fundamentalism and liberalism are not necessarily bad things.


liberalism is always a bad thing

Stand fast therefore in the liberty [to liberate, that is, to exempt (from moral, ceremonial or mortal liability): - deliver, make free.] wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 5:1
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2005, 10:21:44 AM »

We really don't need all this verbal abuse going on.  Each camp, Liberal and Conservative, can learn from each other.  Some fundamentalist need to learn to be more patient and maybe explain their viewpoints better than just throwing a scripture at someone.  Liberals have to stop calling conservatives any number of insults.  Conservatives are not without empathy toward sinners but perhaps need more tools than just scripture alone to explain sins and why they are displeasing to God.  (Sometimes only the Holy Spirit can convince someone of their sin.)  

The more I study scripture, the more conservative I become in my belief.  Trying to understand the original language used Hebrew and Greek, makes the meaning of the English translation so much clearer.  Anyone who has studied languages knows that they are expressions and idioms that make speech and literature more colourful and illustrative.  We also need to cross reference in scripture and not just quote individual verses.  I have seen individual scripture verses used, wrongly, to support polygamy and even sex change operations.  Ridiculous,  they must have learned how to do it from the film "Foot Loose".  

Some liberals are pushing off some commandments and some sins because they think that "modern" thinking can excuse or explain things otherwise.  Just because I don't understand a reason for one of God's laws, doesn't mean I shouldn't obey.  For example, Jews were not permitted to eat pork.  They saw their neighbours eating pigs.  That pork rib BBQ must have been very tempting but the Israelites wouldn't partake.  Later due to science we discover pork might not have been so healthy to eat anyway.  Swine tend to eat garbage, have many parasites, and their meat is very fatty.  -Not healthy at all.  God knows more about the universe that us since He created it.  

Sorry, I just can't be a liberal.  

There is no secret meanings or levels of meanings in scripture like high school English teachers are trying to put across. Why would someone like Paul, for example, write something that he didn't mean to be understood?  There really is only one meaning for scripture, the one that the original author had intended and that was inspired by God.  
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