Rapture

[BigD]

BigD Said:

If you do not want to get involved, then stay out of it entirely. The same goes for blackeyedpeas. When you do get involved, be prepared to defend what you say.

Yes, the "double dog dare" remark was childish. I knew that when I wrote it, and it was on purpose. However, in my youth  it was said if one wanted someone to "put up or shut up." It was issued as a challange. If one did not act on the double dog dare, that one was admitting defeat. You did not accept the double dog dare.

BigD:
The reason I went to the childish "double dog dare" was because I had repeatedly asked to be shown that Joel, in Joel 2:28-32, and Peter, in Acts 2:15-20 were not speaking of the Tribulation. To that I never received a repy - to those two seperate passages. To this point, I still haven't gotten a proper response to those two passages. THEREFORE the "ddd" was issued. In my youth, I never turned down a "ddd." It was a rare occasion when one was.

BEP said:
BigD,

This is getting more childish by the moment. Just for the record, we will become involved however we wish with total disregard for your agenda or what you may want or not want. We will post what we wish, argue what we wish, and not argue if we wish.  WOW! - you're sounding like a six year old.

BigD
You have surely demonstrated the above already. You are sounding like the kid who owns the ball and won't play unless it is by your rules.

FYI my agenda is to discuss various subjects from Scripture, and express my views as I understand the Bible. My knowledge has been broadened by reading what others write and I will express my views on those subjects when they are in conflict with what I believe. I enjoy discussion those things and do not consider it arguing. We are all free to believe what we wish.

Hope you have noticed that I go through great effort to explain my views and support those views from scripture. I try my best to respond to everything others post. That is not alway the case when others respond to what I have posted. Because of that, there are time I may exhibit frustration. The "ddd" was a good example.

BEP said
Here's a news flash for you. Many of us don't post for the purpose of argument, especially the worst kind of arguments. The worst kinds of argument are for vanity, argument's sake, semantics, and other childish reasons that most mature Christians try to avoid.

However, there is no rule against this. If childish arguments are your cup of tea, drink up. In the meantime, you won't be making any rules that others must join you. Anyone who wishes to can post a message here and feel no obligation at all to involve themselves in a childish argument with you. If someone else wishes to to argue with you, they are most welcome to do so. If they don't wish to argue with you, they are most welcome to do whatever they want to with total disregard for what you want or don't want.

"Double-dog dare".   ;D   What will we hear next?  "Na, na, na, na, na".   ;D

You really shouldn't wonder why many on the forum won't engage in discussions with you. WOW!   ;D  I still love you brother.

BigD
I have found that many (not all) do not respond to what I have posted because they can't refute what I have written.

The "ddd" doesn't work, so I will probably try and figure out another way of getting my requests answered. Haven't figured out what it may be YET

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Jemidon2004]

You're right the Promises to the Jewish Fathers were of Israel as a NATION...however Israel was NOT a nation during that time, they were cast aside both spiritually and physically from their former glory as a Nation of God. Even I can see that this happened. First God took away His glory and presence from the temple, then in i believe 387 b.c. King Zedekiah was de-throned, and the kingdom of  Judah ceased to exist. The Kingdom of Israel to the north ceased to exist years before. and the kingdom had split from the united Kingdom of Israel years before that right after Solomon i believe. So it's clear to me that God withdrew His Glory from the temple signifying that God was through with Israel spiritually. Then He allowed the kingdom to cease to exist thus signifying that they were finally cast aside as part of their punishment for dis-obeying God continuously. The Law was given to the NATION of Israel, however, that nation did not exist at that time. It only existed in the minds of those pharisees, scribes, and sadduccees who tried to retain the  Law and the traditions. Jesus was saying to do waht the scribes and pharisees ordered because they were the government during that time. Remember Jesus' words about government. "Render unto Caesar's what is Caesars, and render what is God's unto God" Also if you remember, Jesus rebuked the scribes and the pharisees for their holier than thou attitude and even called them sons of darkness, and children of the devil, even called them vipers. In Matthew 10, Jesus does say go unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, however the translation is "go unto the lost sheep of the people of Israel" or i.e. the CHILDREN of Israel. Not the Nation of Israel. When Paul says in Romans about the oracles and they set up their own righteousness...He was referring to the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin of whom Paul was once a part of remember. Paul knew all to well the "righteousness" of the pharisical order. They rejected God the Father, as well as God the Holy Spirit when the Spirit of the Lord left Solomon's Temple. The fact that they did NOT go after the Lord is evidence enough that they had rejected Jehovah who is a "Spirit" Again how is it that the 70th week started at Pentacost when the events of the VERY NEXT VERSE AFTER MESSIAH'S DEATH weren't fulfilled until 70 A.D.? Daniel's Prophecy follows a timeline. I don't think that he would jump out of this timeline of the 70 weeks...or include the events of 70 a.d. if Daniel didn't see a gap between the 69th and 70th week. According to you...the 69th and 70th week started almost simultaneously. I've read what you've posted about Stephen's stoneing, and about Pentacost...and my reply to that once again is Peter was using Joel's Prophecy as an example of what was happening during that time. The phrase "THIS IS THAT" translates into "This is like that" meaning this is similar to that of Joel's Prophecy. Peter used Joel's prophecy as an example. I gotta head to class, but i've said all i'm going to say on this subject...because again I don't have my notes in front of me, so I can't copy my notes on Joel's prophecy. Forgive me, however what i said earlier is what I remember from reading and studying the past few nights. God Bless.

Joshua

[Bronzesnake]

Yes, I do agree that there will be a tready of 7 years signed in Daniel 9.  However, Jesus Him self said, speaking of the Tribulation, in Matthew 24:22 "...for the elect's sake those days SHALL BE SHORTENED". Its in BigD's BIBLE. What does yours' say?

 My Bible says the exact same thing my friend. However, you have misunderstood the time. To understand exactly when Jesus "shortens time" all you have to do is read the BIBLE - the days are CLEARLY NUMBERED we don't have to guess or assume anything.

 
 Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.  

 1,260 days (3 1/2 years). This concludes the first 3 1/2 years

With the fall of Satan from Heaven and the incarnation of the Antichrist Satan begins his direct assault on mankind. The authority over the Earth and its inhabitants are given to Satan and his forces for 42 months.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

 forty and two months (3 1/2 years)  Here's the final 3 1/2 years my friend - now deal with it accordingly.

Is there anything that says that the "mystery anti-Christ" has to be in Acts 15-20. Isn't Peter quoting Joel, and the "mystery anti-Christ" isn't there either. Isn't Joel speaking of the Tribulation? I BELIEVE HE IS! If you don't believe it, PLEASE (I BEG YOU) tell me he isn't. If Peter is not speaking of the Tribulation in Acts 2:15-20, PLEASE (I BEG YOU) tell me he is in error. "THIS IS THAT" means "what is actually happening."

 You just proved that you can not be correct! There is no "antichrist" mentioned in acts - you have admited as much. However, there is an "antichrist" clearly described from the signing of the peace deal. The antichrist is mentioned many times during the seven years of tribulation in Revelation. Therefore, the Tribulation has not started yet.

 Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

BigD.
Please read Joel 2 in it's entirety, and tell me when specific events which are chronologically ordered before Joel 2:28, which you believe occurred at acts.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;    
When did Jesus return? I must have slept through it!  

Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, [even] to the years of many generations.  
This sounds terrible! When did that take place in Acts?

Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.  
And when did this happen?

Joe 2:4 The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.  


Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.  
Now I would have remembered this! Did this really happen!??

Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.  

Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:  

Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and [when] they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.  

Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.  

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:  
Now I know this happens in Revelations, but that's during the final seven years after the antichrist signs a peace deal, so...
Just a moment...............Nope, didn't happen, I see the sun!  

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it?  

Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:  

Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.  

Joe 2:14 Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; [even] a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?  

Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:  

Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.  

Joe 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where [is] their God?  

Joe 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.  

Joe 2:19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:  

Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern [army], and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.  
Yup, this is right out of Revelations my friend...I guess it happened twice huh?

Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.  

Joe 2:22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.  

Joe 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first [month].  

Joe 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.  

Joe 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.  
It's in Revelation, have a look-see!  

 Joe 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.  

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I [am] in the midst of Israel, and [that] I [am] the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.  

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:  
So, this happens AFTERWARDS huh? Must have missed all that other neat stuff I guess.  

Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.  

Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.  

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.  

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.  

These verses are END TIMES verses my friend. They can all be found in Revelation. Revelation clearly counts out a SEVEN YEAR timeline.

 Paul was referring to Joel in order to explain to unbelievers that the work of Jesus on the cross had set prophecies into motion. He never said the actual Tribulation had begun, and oh, by the way, it will stop and then start again sometime in a couple of thousand years.  

 Why wouldn't Paul have specifically warned the people that  the antichrist was among them??? or that the Tribulation had begun??? afterall, God says the Tribulation will be the most terrifying final seven years of our history...funny, Paul didn't seem to notice it, or be concerned enough to mention it to anyone...hmmm

That false doctrine is built solely on simple inference and a total lack of understanding of God's Word. One must ignore many, many verses in order to accept this ambiguous doctrine. God is not ambiguous - He says it and it happens exactly as it is detailed.

Bronzesnake

[Jemidon2004]

I would have put it a bit more tactfully, but you got the point across...lol. Sometimes i have a tendancy to be blunt...but i think you had an advantage over me bronze, I think you got your notes in front of you I DON"T!! LOL ROFL Just giving you a hard time. Now, what ya gotta do Bronze, do a word study in the differences in the "Latter days" and the "Last days" in reference to Israel, and the "Last days" in reference to the CHURCH...and you'll find a difference, that may set this mess straight... Enjoy!

Joshua

[Evangelist]

BigD:

In re at least one of your requests, please consider the following.


Dan 8:25
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel is here giving an overview of the anti-christ to come, how he shall misrule, and in the words "by peace" is the implicit understanding of some kind of device by which he will be able to deceive his victims into believing that there is peace. Compare this with Pauls words in 1Th 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

It is reasonable to assume that the means by which the people will believe that they are in a condition of peace and safety is that they have been "delivered" from sure destruction by means of a forceful ruler who effects a peaceable end to conflict (historically, some kind of peace treaty).

Dan 9:25
Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times
Dan 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Here, please note that there appears to be a division...we have the "prince that shall come", indicating an unknown time in the future, and we have "the people of..." that prince. It is not unreasonable to read this as the destruction (...shall destroy the city) is done by a people, or group, that is known...in this case, we know it to be the Romans. BUT...the prince (of that people) that IS to come, is also one endued  by evil powers (satan), and comes at a later time.  After the fall of the Roman empire, this is the main reason for so many believing that there will be a "reconstituted" Roman empire. Many today attribute this characteristic to the EU.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

While many believe that "he shall confirm the covenant" is referring to Messiah, and speaking of the new covenant, such construction is impossible for several reasons. Let's begin with the actual grammatical construction. The "he" is a direct reference to the last named individual, which happens to be "the prince that shall come". Further, to believe that Messiah will be responsible for the "overspreading of abominations" is additionally grammatically, as well as theologically, unsound.  Again, the second "he" in the phrase refers to the immediately preceeding subject, again the "prince that is to come".

Notice also that the "covenant" is a typical ancient way of saying what we today would call "treaty", in this case a peace treaty, referring back to Dan. 8.  This covenant is for one week, which we easily understand to correspond to 7 years in accordance with the rest of Daniel's time periods.  Also, the sentence construction does not lead one to easily believe that this 7 year period is broken in any manner. Rather, it says that in the middle of the week (at 3 1/2 years), he (the prince to come, or anti-christ) breaks the treaty by causing "the sacrifice and ...oblation to cease". Further, he causes desolation "even until the consummation..."

Please note two things. One, that this is a direct cross reference to what Jesus said in both Mat. 24:15 and Mark 13:14 concerning the abomination of desolation. Second, is that at the 3 1/2 year mark, when this prince begins his abomination, that it is carried out "even until the consummation."  Consummation, of course, is properly defined as "the ultimate end, or finish" of something.  The final words add emphasis to this, and also decree what is spoken of by other prophets..."and that determined (by God) shall be poured out upon the desolate."  Compare this with the descriptions of the 21 judgements of God being "poured out upon the earth,", in particular the description of the darkness that is poured out upon the kingdom of the antichrist (Rev. 16:10-11).

Summary:
The antichrist effects a peace treaty (covenant) with Israel at a time of great distress. This treaty is for 7 years (one week), and is the missing, or 70th  week prescribed by Daniel. This period corresponds exactly to the descriptions given of the "Tribulation" period. At the half way mark, after causing abomination in the temple, the "Great Tribulation" phase begins, and corresponds to Jesus' admonition to "flee for the hills."  

Nowhere in Daniel, Mat. 24, or Revelation is there any indication, either directly or indirectly by sentence construction, that the 70th week itself is broken into two separated segments.

Concerning Stephen, we run into some problems also. First, it is believed, but not proven, that he was stoned sometime late in the first year of the Church, or early in the second. This would make his death in 34/35 AD.  The destruction of the Temple was in 70 AD, approx. 35 years later. In no respect does this time period correspond with any of the well-established time calculations given either by Daniel, or by John in Revelation.

Blessings

[BigD]

Bronze:
I have no problem with all of Joel 2 dealing with endtime prophesy.

Joel was a prophet of God. What he writes is futuristic. The events Joel is writing about have not all happened to this day.
Joel knew nothing about the dispensation of the Law being interrupted  and of this dispensation of grace, which was kept secret since the world began, until revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Several of the Old Testament prophets have written about the Tribulation.

John the Baptist in Matt.3:2 preach "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (about to be set up.)

Matt.4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (about to be set up).

In Matthew 10:7 Jesus commanded his disciples to preach "The kingdom of heaven is at hand (about to be set up).

Its been over 1900 years now, and the kingdom hasn't been set up yet. So, How could John, Jesus and the 12 preach that? I haven't seen or read about that either.

They could preach that because according to OT prophesy, it was the time for the kingdom to come. The king was here upon the earth. The kingdom program got interrupted because Israel rejected their King and His Kingdom. How could it be established? How could the world be blessed through the Jews as a nation? Those promises are still yet future.

When I do study prophesy, I do not read Paul's epistle's into them. That would be reading future revelation into a past event. You wouldn't read the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden, or the battles of WWII into the battles of WWI, so Why read Paul's letters into prophesy or the Gospels?

When Jesus was upon the earth, He followed the Law, and did what the Law required. The Law was in effect until Isreal was set aside. [/b]WOULD YOU PLEASE SHOW ME WHEN WE FIRST KNOW THAT ISRAEL WAS SET ASIDE AND THE LAW MADE OF NONE EFFECT"[/b] According to BigD's Bible, that can be found only in Paul's epiltles. What does your say.

When I study Paul's epistles, I learn that this dispensation of grace is a ("parenthetical") period within the dispensation of grace.

PLEASE (I BEG YOU) tell me if you believe the law will again be ineffect after the rapture of the Chruch. If NO, Why not?

When Peter spoke at Pentecost, there was no such thing known as the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law. Israel had not yet been set aside, and Paul had not yet been converted. Paul was not converted until AFTER the Tribulation was interrupted. If you study Paul's epistles you will not find that he never offered an earthly kingdom to members of the Body of Christ. He only gives us a heavenly hope.

PLEASE (I BEG YOU) answer these questions for me. Do you agree with me that before the kingdom can be set upon the earth that That Jesus had to suffer and that Israel had to go through the Tribulation. I have pointed out earlier that these two thing must happen before the kingdom could be established; so I won't do it again now.

Do you believe that Peter is offering the kingdom to his listeners in Acts 3:19-21? I do. If you don't, will you PLEASE explain why not. And if he wasn't, what was he offering.

Do you believe that at the time of Pentecost that Peter understood all the OT Scriptures and knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophesy? (Luke 24:45)

Do you believe that Peter was speaking "as the Spirit gave him utterance? (Acts 2:4)

If you will respond to what I requested above, I will have a much better grasp of what you actually believe.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Jemidon2004]

Amen evangelist. I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote. I can't put it in any simpler way, and I've tried...lol. Good work brother. God Bless

Joshua

[Jemidon2004]

Bronze, i'll let you respond to that one since it was related to you, so i think i'm going to step out since BigD continues to beg. I never did like it when someone begs. So i'm going to step out and watch the discussion...as i feel it may be drawing to a close, because it seems that we are discussing in circles...lol. Someone's gotta break the circle, It won't be me unless i can finally get some time at home where i can get out my materials, and type them up on here. I just despise it when I have to go somewhere and reply without my materials..lol. I guess i can't take my library everywhere now can I...lol. God Bless

Joshua

[BigD]

Evangelist:
One cannot compare the book of Daniel to the book of Thessalonians unless your are trying to show the difference between PROPHESY and MYSTERY

Daniel has to do with the prophetic program to Isreal and which Jesus came to fulfill at His coming (Romans 15:8). It pertained to things which were spoken of "since the world began."

Thessalonians has to do with what was revealed to the Apostle Paul for members of the Body of Christ, and "was kept secret since the world began. .

So is no connection between Daniel and Thessalonians. One cannot find the rapture or the Body of Christ in the prophetic Scriptures.

Paul, in 1Cor15:51-52 explains the rapture as a "MYSTERY" (secret).

In 1Thess.4:13-18 is speaking to believers and  explains the rapture.

In 5:1 Paul assures them "But the times and the seasons brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know prefectly well that the day of the Lord so commeth as a thief in the night. (They will have been raptured [taken out]).
3 For when they (unbelievers) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction commeth upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (They will have to go through the Tribulation and Great Tribulation.)
>SNIP<
9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath (the Tribulation) but to obtain salvation (from the Tribuation) by our Lord Jesus Christ.

As I have suggested to Bronze, don't read future revelations into past events.

The PROPHETIC program that Jesus came to fulfill is entirely different from the MYSTERY program that was revealed to Paul. Don't mix them.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

Jemidon2004:
I have been begging because requesting was getting me no where. I'm sure you noticed that I have even resorted to the "ddd". That really hasn't helped either.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Jemidon2004]

Sorry man, i'm not one for beggers. However I did see you resort to the ddd...and i found it distasteful however I didn't comment on it because I didn't feel it was my place to comment on something as childish as that. But please, don't lower yourself to begging, it doesn't become you...you're too stubborn to do that. GB

Joshua

[Evangelist]

One cannot compare the book of Daniel to the book of Thessalonians unless your are trying to show the difference between PROPHESY and MYSTERY

Daniel has to do with the prophetic program to Isreal and which Jesus came to fulfill at His coming (Romans 15:. It pertained to things which were spoken of "since the world began."

Thessalonians has to do with what was revealed to the Apostle Paul for members of the Body of Christ, and "was kept secret since the world began. .

So is no connection between Daniel and Thessalonians. One cannot find the rapture or the Body of Christ in the prophetic Scriptures.

Paul, in 1Cor15:51-52 explains the rapture as a "MYSTERY" (secret).

In 1Thess.4:13-18 is speaking to believers and  explains the rapture.

In 5:1 Paul assures them "But the times and the seasons brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know prefectly well that the day of the Lord so commeth as a thief in the night. (They will have been raptured [taken out]).
3 For when they (unbelievers) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction commeth upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (They will have to go through the Tribulation and Great Tribulation.)
>SNIP<
9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath (the Tribulation) but to obtain salvation (from the Tribuation) by our Lord Jesus Christ.

As I have suggested to Bronze, don't read future revelations into past events.

The PROPHETIC program that Jesus came to fulfill is entirely different from the MYSTERY program that was revealed to Paul. Don't mix them.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

2Ti 3:16
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

First, BigD...you said:

Dainel 9 does not specificly say that a peace treaty must be signed PRIOR to the beginning of the Tribulation. It does state that one will be signed and broken in the middle.

Technically, you're correct. Daniel 9 doesn't say that....but 2 Thess does. 2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Tell me, in your separation of things, is not Paul here speaking of the same person Daniel is? Or is Paul revealing someone new, never before known?  When Paul is speaking of "that day", what day is he talking about? Isn't he referring to "that day of Christ"? And exactly what is that day of Christ? Is it not the harpadzo?  And if it is the harpadzo, and that can't happen until there is apostasy AND the man of sin is revealed, is there not a correlation to be made between this character and the one told of by Daniel....AND Jesus?

FWIW BigD, don't go overboard trying to separate and render meaningless the interlocking roles (and words spoken) played by ALL the characters of the bible.  Such compartmentalization means simply that the Word is then NOT rightly divided....but is chopped up into separate rooms that certainly DON'T fit together..."a building fitly framed."

[Bronzesnake]

I'm done here.

 This reminds me of my discussions with the J.W.'s - They believe their bible the NWT is not a mistranslation of the original biblical manuscripts (which it is) they believe it's merely a modern English translation of the KJV version. I have challenged them on many occasions to compare their bible against any of the twenty plus thousand original biblical manuscripts which are easily available through the Internet. These original Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic etc have all been cross referenced against each other and have been found to be almost verbatim from the oldest known copies of the scriptures, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. Our KJV is found to be about 98% pure also. The only discrepancies are when there are no comparable words to be found in the translated language, and even then, there is never any example of Biblical doctrine which is changed even in the slightest.

 The same can not be said of the NWT translation. That bible is a sham. The translation team which put that fairy tale book together could not even translate the simplest Greek or Hebrew into English when challenged to do so in a Scottish court.

 The J.W.'s completely ignore these facts and blindly continue to repeat their mantra like mindless automatons. Same goes for this doctrine. So much contradictory evidence has been provided from the scriptures and yet this is simply ignored while the dogmatic mantra is regurgatated, as though it will be made true if it is repeated enough times.

 God luck to you BigD my brother, and may God bless you. I look forward to reading the book you sent, so I can get some kind of idea of where you are going so wrong.

Bronzesnake

[BigD]

Part 1

BigD said
One cannot compare the book of Daniel to the book of Thessalonians unless your are trying to show the difference between PROPHESY and MYSTERY

Daniel has to do with the prophetic program to Isreal and which Jesus came to fulfill at His coming (Romans 15:8). It pertained to things which were spoken of "since the world began."

Thessalonians has to do with what was revealed to the Apostle Paul for members of the Body of Christ, and "was kept secret since the world began. .

So is no connection between Daniel and Thessalonians. One cannot find the rapture or the Body of Christ in the prophetic Scriptures.

Paul, in 1Cor15:51-52 explains the rapture as a "MYSTERY" (secret).

In 1Thess.4:13-18 is speaking to believers and  explains the rapture.

In 5:1 Paul assures them "But the times and the seasons brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know prefectly well that the day of the Lord so commeth as a thief in the night. (They will have been raptured [taken out]).
3 For when they (unbelievers) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction commeth upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (They will have to go through the Tribulation and Great Tribulation.)
>SNIP<
9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath (the Tribulation) but to obtain salvation (from the Tribuation) by our Lord Jesus Christ.

As I have suggested to Bronze, don't read future revelations into past events.

The PROPHETIC program that Jesus came to fulfill is entirely different from the MYSTERY program that was revealed to Paul. Don't mix them.

Evangelist replied:
2Ti 3:16
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

BigD:
Believe those verses with all my heart.

Also, Paul wrote to Timothy saying: "Study to sew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Evangelist said:
First, BigD...you said:
"Dainel 9 does not specificly say that a peace treaty must be signed PRIOR to the beginning of the Tribulation. It does state that one will be signed and broken in the middle."

Technically, you're correct. Daniel 9 doesn't say that....but 2 Thess does. 2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Tell me, in your separation of things, is not Paul here speaking of the same person Daniel is? Or is Paul revealing someone new, never before known?  When Paul is speaking of "that day", what day is he talking about? Isn't he referring to "that day of Christ"? And exactly what is that day of Christ? Is it not the harpadzo?  And if it is the harpadzo, and that can't happen until there is apostasy AND the man of sin is revealed, is there not a correlation to be made between this character and the one told of by Daniel....AND Jesus?

BigD:
Paul is speaking of the same person as Daniel. Further, "that day" Paul is speaking of is the Tribulation. The context of "that day of Christ" is the return of Christ. However, I do believe it would have been better translated "That day of the Lord," (Isaiah 2:12) meaning the Tribulation which ends in the return of Christ.

Even though I have a "Key Word" study Bible, which has the Hebrew/Greek Dictionary and Lexical, I cannot find a word in the verses you mentioned that derive from "harpadzo", so I will not comment on that.

For the full meaning of verse 3, I will copy for the book by Pastor C.R.Stam in his comentary on the books of Tessalonians. (I will leave out the footnotes.)

Chapter II - II Thessalonians 2:1-3

FIRST THE DEPARTURE

AN APPEAL TO THE FALTERING

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, theson of perdition." II Thes. 2:1-3

LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS

The Apostle's appeal to the Thessalonian saints not to be "shaken," or “troubled," or "deceived. . . by any means," is based upon the truth of the Rapture.

It was “by" or on the basis of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and48 our gathering together unto Him," that he begged them not to falter.

This was their "blessed hope," and he besought them not to let any man take it from them either “by spirit" (i.e., the supposed gift of prophecy), or “by word" (i.e., argument) or “by letter as from us” (Ver. 2).

Of all the strong evidences in the Thessalonian epistles that the rapture of believers to be with Christ will precede the Tribulation, the opening verses of II Thes. 2 are certainly the strongest.

NOT ONE SCRIPTURE?

One Bible teacher has declared that "there is not one verse of Scripture which explicitly affirms the rapture of the Church before the Tribulation. But why need there be? There is "not one verse of Scripture which explicitly affirms" that our Lord was baptized before His temptation by the devil, or that He was crowned with thorns before He was crucified, or that baptism with water is no longer included in God's program for believers, or that God is a Trinity. Yet there is abundant Scriptural proof for all these, and the brother referred to above accepts them all as the truth of the Word of God.

Some time ago one of the author's "post-trib." friends wrote to him:

"The great tribulation is not pleasant to anticipate -- this is a fact (Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:21,22). But in the light of [a series of Scripture passages] I know by God's grace and strength I can endure the greatest torture or the most gruesome death. Perhaps, brother, I will be called upon one day to prove myword. God only knows. I can rest only in Him (II Tim. 1:7). Paul went through much, as did many first-century Christians. To those individuals, tortured and killed, the pain they suffered could not be any worse than the saints will suffer as individuals in the great tribulation. Praise God for our great and glorious hope, I Tim. 1:1."

How sad this is in view of the following three facts:

1. Paul, in speaking of the Rapture never says one word to prepare the saints for the horrors of the Tribulation. We may be certain that he would have done so if they were to endure its terrors before being caught up to be with Christ.

2. Our Lord, in speaking to His "kingdom" followers did say much to them about the coming Tribulation, but not one word about their being "caught up" to meet Him in the air.

3. Thus, the rapture of believers to be with Christ, is distinctively the hope of the Body of Christ, for which Paul repeatedly urges us to be "looking" and "waiting," encouraging one another in the anticipation of this “blessed hope" (Tit. 2:13).

But wait! There is indeed one blessed passage of Scripture which "explicitly affirms" that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation. It is II Thes. 2:3.

Our respect and admiration for the King James Version grows more profound each year. We believe that KJV stands head and shoulders above all other English translations, and perhaps above all other translations in any language. It is in the truest sense a faithful translation. Also, we believe that God has graciously preserved the Greek Scriptures for us in Textus Receptus, the Received Text of the New Testament, rightly called the Majority Text, the text upon which KJV is substantially based.

Yet here is a case where the KJV translators departed from Textus Receptus, for TR does not contain the words "a falling away" in II Thes. 2:3, but the words "the departure," Gr., hee apostasia. Thus the verse actually reads:

"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except the departure come first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

There is abundant evidence for this rendering, as we shall now proceed to prove.

continued in Part 2

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!