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nChrist
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« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2005, 07:04:46 PM »

Bronzesnake,

Brother, you are obviously correct. Rome is the Babylon of Bible Prophecy.

What irks me is how some folks twist and distort Bible Prophecy trying to make it fit the U.S., and invariably the next step is calling George Bush the anti-Christ. Many political groups tried to use this nonsense to impact the last election, but it just didn't fly because the truth was to easy to find. I'm certainly not trying to hint that George Bush is anywhere near perfect, but I would state in certainty that he is NOT the anti-Christ. What bothers me most is the Bible being abused and the attempt to link the Holy Bible with something that is totally false.

The biggest problem with these wild tales is politicians and political parties trying to use something they know almost nothing about - The Holy Bible. The same would be true of anarchists and other anti-government groups trying to do the same thing. Many wild tales and conspiracy theories have been around for many years, and they are so easy to dismiss as total garbage that it's silly to keep repeating them. But, I guess that some people buy this nonsense.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Corinthians 1:9  God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
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« Reply #106 on: March 13, 2005, 05:37:49 AM »

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Bronzesnake:
Rome is the only city on earth which is built on seven mountains.

Mecca is said to be on seven hills.

Istanbul Turkey is said to be on seven hills, although it look more like a plain.

What about the seven Mountains of Jerusalem.

Rome isn't the only city on seven hillsMountains. Grin

That is true, however, only one city has for more than 2000 years been known as the city on seven hills. That city is Rome. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined" (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, 1976, s.v. "Rome").

Even Catholic apologist Karl Keating admits that Rome has long been known as Babylon. Keating claims that Peter's statement "The church here in Babylon ... sends you her greeting" (from 1 Peter 5:13) proves that Peter was writing from Rome. He explains further:

"Babylon is a code word for Rome. It is used that way six times in the last book of the Bible (four of the six are in chapters 17 and 18) and in extrabiblical works such as Syblling Oracles (5, 159f.), and Apocalypse of Baruch (ii, 1), and 4 Esdras (3:1).

"Eusebius Pamphilius, writing about 303, noted that `it is said that Peter's first epistle ... was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon" (Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians," Kgnatius Press, 1988, p. 200).

There is little doubt that the city is Rome.

Bronzesnake

Sure everyone knows that Rome sits on seven hills. Rome was known as "the city on seven hills" or "the seven hilled city" sometime in the 40's BC. I was not trying to work you up, only pointing out that Rome isn't the only city on seven hills.

There is little evidence to support these contentions since the context of 1 Peter 5:13 is not figurative in style, nor is there historical evidence from the first two centuries to indicate that Peter was ever in Rome or ever served as the leader of the Roman Church.
Still other scholars contend that Peter penned these words from the small, frist-century town of Babylon that was located on the Euphrates river in what is modern-day Iraq.

You should read 4 Ezra or 2 Esdras chapter 3 before using it as proof. I could be wrong, but it seems to me its more on facts and philosophy, not prophecy.

Quote
BEP:
What irks me is how some folks twist and distort Bible Prophecy trying to make it fit the U.S., and invariably the next step is calling George Bush the anti-Christ.

Its ludicrous every time the image of Nebuchadnezzar is standing on one leg in Europe when everyone knows there was a Political and a Religion spilt into east and west of the Roman Empire. Grin
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« Reply #107 on: March 13, 2005, 09:25:59 PM »

Quote
Bronzesnake:
Rome is the only city on earth which is built on seven mountains.

Mecca is said to be on seven hills.

Istanbul Turkey is said to be on seven hills, although it look more like a plain.

What about the seven Mountains of Jerusalem.

Rome isn't the only city on seven hillsMountains. Grin

That is true, however, only one city has for more than 2000 years been known as the city on seven hills. That city is Rome. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined" (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, 1976, s.v. "Rome").

Even Catholic apologist Karl Keating admits that Rome has long been known as Babylon. Keating claims that Peter's statement "The church here in Babylon ... sends you her greeting" (from 1 Peter 5:13) proves that Peter was writing from Rome. He explains further:

"Babylon is a code word for Rome. It is used that way six times in the last book of the Bible (four of the six are in chapters 17 and 18) and in extrabiblical works such as Syblling Oracles (5, 159f.), and Apocalypse of Baruch (ii, 1), and 4 Esdras (3:1).

"Eusebius Pamphilius, writing about 303, noted that `it is said that Peter's first epistle ... was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon" (Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians," Kgnatius Press, 1988, p. 200).

There is little doubt that the city is Rome.

Bronzesnake

Sure everyone knows that Rome sits on seven hills. Rome was known as "the city on seven hills" or "the seven hilled city" sometime in the 40's BC. I was not trying to work you up, only pointing out that Rome isn't the only city on seven hills.

There is little evidence to support these contentions since the context of 1 Peter 5:13 is not figurative in style, nor is there historical evidence from the first two centuries to indicate that Peter was ever in Rome or ever served as the leader of the Roman Church.
Still other scholars contend that Peter penned these words from the small, frist-century town of Babylon that was located on the Euphrates river in what is modern-day Iraq.

You should read 4 Ezra or 2 Esdras chapter 3 before using it as proof. I could be wrong, but it seems to me its more on facts and philosophy, not prophecy.

Quote
BEP:
What irks me is how some folks twist and distort Bible Prophecy trying to make it fit the U.S., and invariably the next step is calling George Bush the anti-Christ.

Its ludicrous every time the image of Nebuchadnezzar is standing on one leg in Europe when everyone knows there was a Political and a Religion spilt into east and west of the Roman Empire. Grin

What makes you think I was "worked up"?

 Seems logical to consider the fact that the "Roman Catholic" Church was not founded in Iraq. Therefore - you can logically place Peter in Rome as opposed to Iraq.

Bronzesnake
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nChrist
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« Reply #108 on: March 13, 2005, 10:15:52 PM »


Quote
BEP:
What irks me is how some folks twist and distort Bible Prophecy trying to make it fit the U.S., and invariably the next step is calling George Bush the anti-Christ.

Its ludicrous every time the image of Nebuchadnezzar is standing on one leg in Europe when everyone knows there was a Political and a Religion spilt into east and west of the Roman Empire. ;D

At_The_Cross,

This might be somewhat useful for someone's political agenda or as a partial descriptor for the Catholic Church, but it can't be twisted or distorted far enough for the Babylon of Bible Prophecy to be the U.S. The center stage of end of age Bible Prophecy is NOT in this hemisphere. The center stage will be and most obviously is the Middle East, Israel, Jerusalem, and Rome. I really don't pay attention to most politicians or political groups unless they abuse the Holy Bible in trying to obtain their objectives. Many political groups are already more than corrupt without them also butchering the Holy Bible for their purposes. All they accomplish with Christians who have more than a beginner's knowledge of the Holy Bible is boldly advertise they are frauds, false, bogus, and of no use as politicians either.

So, the political group's purpose of manipulating Christians backfires, and they quickly achieve the opposite of what they wanted to do. They would actually have a much better chance if they stuck to the dirty game of politics and left the Holy Bible out of it. Christians aren't so dumb that they buy everything that comes down the pike, especially if someone blatantly abuses the Holy Bible while trying to sell a load of political garbage.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Titus 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
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« Reply #109 on: March 31, 2005, 02:22:04 PM »

Why couldn't the seven heads of the beast of Revelation 13 be the seven continents?

A global kingdom.

Do you think that is a possibility?



(And, BTW, nice to meet you!) Smiley
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« Reply #110 on: March 31, 2005, 03:30:13 PM »

I think they are leaders of 7 nations ,is this how you see it ?
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« Reply #111 on: April 03, 2005, 08:28:37 PM »

The "Great Image" of Nebuchadnezzar.

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Daniel 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
Daniel 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

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Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Babylon{Lion Daniel 7:4} - [Head of Gold] Jeremiah 49:19-22 used both the lion and the eagle as pictures of Nebuchadnezzar.

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Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Medes-Persians Daniel 5:28 {Bear - 3 ribs - Babylon, Egypt and Lydia. Daniel 7:5} - [Chest of Silver]

Greek{Leopard - Daniel 7:6} - [Belly of Brass],

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Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Rome{Dreadful and Terrible - Daniel 7:7}

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Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

[Legs of Iron(Western and Eastern)]
The Romans forced the Jews to leave the region of Palestine in 132-135 AD. Rome was divided into eastern and western legs portions in 395 AD.

~WESTERN LEG~
Western Roman Empire falls in 476 AD.

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Daniel 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

~EASTERN LEG~
Constantine builds Constantinople on the site of the Greek city Byzantium in 330 AD. Constantinople becomes the new capital of the Roman empire in 359 AD. Byzantium enforces anti-Jewish laws and the Jews all but disappear from the eastern Roman Empire in 527 AD. The Ottoman Turks capture Constantinople in 1453 AD., Constantinople was renamed Istanbul, Turkey in 1930 AD.

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Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

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Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard, its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

Leopard(Greek), Bear's(Medes-Persians) and Lion's mouth(Babylonia Daniel 4:30-31).

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Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

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Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

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Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

According to the angel, then, Rev. 17:9 "seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth." In the next verse of Rev. 17:10 And there are seven kings: That is in keeping with the facts that in many places in prophecy mountains symbolize governments. For instance, Jeremiah 51:25 likens the fallen Babylonian kingdom to a "ruinous mountain" and a "burnt mountain." Of course, Babylon itself was situated on a river plain and was made a mountain city. Elsewhere in scripture, God's own royal kingdom is called Mount Zion. The five fallen kings that were dominated by the harlot existed before Christ, and long before the US ever came on the scene. The Dreadful and Terrible covers two legs of Iron(Western and Eastern) and 10 toes(Iron and Clay).

And there are seven kings; "five have fallen" Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greek, "one is" Rome.

Very interesting but there are a few things I wanted to point out.  It is common for people to say that Daniel chapter 7 is speaking about 4 different kingdoms that exist each in succession to one another.  One falls and another rises.  However if you read a key verse in this chapter you can see that these kingdoms all exist and are in power at the return of The Ancient of Days.

Quote
Dan 7:12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Here we see that these other beasts have their power taken from them at the return of the Son of Man.  Preceding this verse we see the destruction of this fourth great and terrible beast and the little horn’s deliverance to the burning flame.  This coincides with the events spoken of by John in Revelation.  Moreover we see these same four beasts together as one in Revelation which is the symbol of their attempt at unity.  Let’s take a closer look.

You speak of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.  In his dream he is seeing the existence of all the major kingdoms that must exist up to the return of The Messiah.  This is where your historical kingdoms come from starting with Babylon.  Rome and its split are seen in the legs of iron.  Then Daniel goes on while interpreting the dream to speak of the time of the toes which are the kingdoms which shall arise after the fall of the Roman Empire.

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Dan 2:40  And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.  (Rome and its fall)

Dan 2:41  And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

The kingdom that is divided is Rome.  After its fall the world falls into chaos and from these ashes rise the many kingdoms which are the feet and toes, some weak and some strong.

Quote
Dan 2:42  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Dan 2:43  And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Here we see the picture of the emerging world scene after the fall of Rome.  Some nations would rise to be strong and others would be weak.  Many would mingle with one another but they would not cleave together even as iron and clay do not mix.  We definitely see this with all the racism and elitism that goes on in the world and has been for some time.  Nations make and break treaties as they see it benefiting them.  The key here is the next verse.

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Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

In the days of the many kingdoms the God of heaven will set up His permanent kingdom and He shall consume these kingdoms.  Not all the kingdoms will be destroyed.  This is the time of the feet and toes, the time of the many kingdoms that arose from the ashes of a fallen Roman Empire.  It is this time period which Daniel is speaking about in Chapter 7.  These beasts or kingdoms arise in the earth among the people during the time of the feet and toes, or the time of the many kingdoms.  These four great beasts exist at the time of the return of The Ancient of Days.  Let’s look at these more closely.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2005, 09:56:16 PM by Last Daze » Logged
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« Reply #112 on: April 03, 2005, 08:29:24 PM »

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Dan 7:3  And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Now sea, or water, is often used as a symbol for people.  Daniel is describing the rising of nations among different peoples.  These four nations, or kingdoms, rise up and are different from one another.

Quote
Dan 7:4  The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Dan 7:5  And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Dan 7:6  After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Dan 7:7  After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Now these are four primary kingdoms that exercise major global influence and play a key role in the end times and will exist at the return of The Messiah.  Let us reference John’s Revelation.

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Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,[/u] and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 13:2  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Now John is describing “a beast” which rises out of the sea, or rises among the people.  This beast is a conglomeration of all four beasts of Daniel.  It has the 10 horns from the fourth beast of Daniel, it has the mouth of a Lion from the first, the feet of a bear from the second and the beast was like unto a leopard, the third beast kingdom of Daniel.  This beast has seven heads.  It we look at Daniel we see the head of the Lion, the head of the bear, the 4 heads of the leopard and the head of the fourth beast which is not likened to any beast in nature.  There are your seven heads.  John’s beast is tied to what is called “The Great Tribulation” period.  This means that this beast exists as a whole at the time of the end.  Daniel's beasts also exist because he goes on to tell us in Dan 7:9-12 what happens at the return of The Ancient of Days.

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Dan 7:9  I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Dan 7:10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Dan 7:11  I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.   (Also see Rev 19:19-21)

Dan 7:12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Again Daniel testifies that these beasts are in power at the Return of The Ancient of Days.  Their thrones are cast down at His return, not before.  In other words their power is stripped from them but he goes on to say that these other beasts will have their lives prolonged for a season.  This is not describing kingdoms that rose and fell before the return of The Messiah as their power is taken from them at His return.  They do not fall as a result of moral decay and wars with barbarians.  They do not simply erode over time or fade out of existence.  Daniel 7:9 is describing the last part of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.

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Dan 2:34  Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Dan 2:35  Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The “stone” that “was cut out without hands” is a symbol for the God of heaven as He has no creator, no beginning nor ending of days.  He smites the “feet” of the image and becomes a "great mountain".  When Daniel provides the interpretation he explains what this is symbolizing.  In verses 42 – 44 Daniel explains that it is during the time of the feet and toes, the time of the many kingdoms, that the God of heaven will set up His kingdom (mountain).  This is why the “stone” is shown striking the “feet”.  Since Daniel chapter 7 describes these beasts as having their power taken from them at the return of The Ancient of Days then we know he is speaking about the time and kingdoms of the feet and toes from Nebuchadnezzar’s dream because the other empires in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream all fall before the return of The Messiah.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2005, 09:54:53 PM by Last Daze » Logged
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« Reply #113 on: April 04, 2005, 04:53:12 AM »

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Bronzesnake:
What makes you think I was "worked up"?

By your reply trying to explain that its Rome. The only place I disagreed with you was Rome being the only city on seven mountains. But you can add 1 Peter 5:13 as a disagreement for Babylon being in code for Rome.

Quote
Seems logical to consider the fact that the "Roman Catholic" Church was not founded in Iraq. Therefore - you can logically place Peter in Rome as opposed to Iraq.

Bronzesnake

No, 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. John speaks of mystery Babylon, Peter speaks only of Babylon, one is a mystery, the other is face value, the Lord didn't say "go ye into all of Rome" but rather Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Paul tells us more of his journey in Galatians 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. Very little is said about Peter's journeys, symbolic/code for Rome...I don't agree with that.

Quote
BEP:
This might be somewhat useful for someone's political agenda or as a partial descriptor for the Catholic Church, but it can't be twisted or distorted far enough for the Babylon of Bible Prophecy to be the U.S. The center stage of end of age Bible Prophecy is NOT in this hemisphere. The center stage will be and most obviously is the Middle East, Israel, Jerusalem, and Rome. I really don't pay attention to most politicians or political groups unless they abuse the Holy Bible in trying to obtain their objectives. Many political groups are already more than corrupt without them also butchering the Holy Bible for their purposes. All they accomplish with Christians who have more than a beginner's knowledge of the Holy Bible is boldly advertise they are frauds, false, bogus, and of no use as politicians either.

i.e. Senator J. Kerry. The discrepancy is in ones own interpretation, but that would be the same as pre, med or post Rapture, as you know some have different views and beliefs. I don't agree with a one thousand and nine hundred plus year gap between the 69th and 70th week, but NONE of you has forced your views on me. The only thing I've seen is "points of view and beliefs" on the matter, I don't see anything in scripture to change my mind. Also, I don't teach the Mystery Babylon is the USA!!

Quote
BEP:
So, the political group's purpose of manipulating Christians backfires, and they quickly achieve the opposite of what they wanted to do. They would actually have a much better chance if they stuck to the dirty game of politics and left the Holy Bible out of it. Christians aren't so dumb that they buy everything that comes down the pike, especially if someone blatantly abuses the Holy Bible while trying to sell a load of political garbage.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Quote
Last Daze:
Very interesting but there are a few things I wanted to point out. It is common for people to say that Daniel chapter 7 is speaking about 4 different kingdoms that exist each in succession to one another. One falls and another rises. However if you read a key verse in this chapter you can see that these kingdoms all exist and are in power at the return of The Ancient of Days.

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Honestly, both Babylon, Medes-Persians were conquered and the Greeks melted into the Roman Empire, bereft of their former power. Daniel 2:32 [...], his belly and his thighs of brass, 2:33 His legs of iron, [...]. The legs of Iron is after the split. Daniel 7:12 is refering to Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Quote
Daniel 7:12.
Last Daze:
Here we see that these other beasts have their power taken from them at the return of the Son of Man. Preceding this verse we see the destruction of this fourth great and terrible beast and the little horn’s deliverance to the burning flame. This coincides with the events spoken of by John in Revelation. Moreover we see these same four beasts together as one in Revelation which is the symbol of their attempt at unity. Let’s take a closer look.

Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


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You speak of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. In his dream he is seeing the existence of all the major kingdoms that must exist up to the return of The Messiah. This is where your historical kingdoms come from starting with Babylon.

Agreed.

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Rome and its split are seen in the legs of iron. Then Daniel goes on while interpreting the dream to speak of the time of the toes which are the kingdoms which shall arise after the fall of the Roman Empire.


Not so, Rome started in the brass until its split between east and west. Although there was a split in the political and another in religion, Daniel is speaking of the political until the feet, which continues until the Lord's return. My belief is religion(clay) and political(iron).


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Daniel 2:42-43.
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Here we see the picture of the emerging world scene after the fall of Rome. Some nations would rise to be strong and others would be weak. Many would mingle with one another but they would not cleave together even as iron and clay do not mix. We definitely see this with all the racism and elitism that goes on in the world and has been for some time. Nations make and break treaties as they see it benefiting them. The key here is the next verse.

In the Old Testament clay is used for the people also, Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
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« Reply #114 on: April 04, 2005, 08:47:41 PM »


Honestly, both Babylon, Medes-Persians were conquered and the Greeks melted into the Roman Empire, bereft of their former power. Daniel 2:32 [...], his belly and his thighs of brass, 2:33 His legs of iron, [...]. The legs of Iron is after the split. Daniel 7:12 is refering to Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

While this may be true it does not answer the question of how these kingdoms could be the ones spoken of when the ones spoken of will be in power when The Messiah returns.  Being conquered, scattered or annihilated by another worldly power doesn’t quite fit the description given by Daniel of these beasts nor of the fact that their power is stripped by The Ancient of Days at His return not by Rome or another conquering power.


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Rome and its split are seen in the legs of iron. Then Daniel goes on while interpreting the dream to speak of the time of the toes which are the kingdoms which shall arise after the fall of the Roman Empire.


Not so, Rome started in the brass until its split between east and west. Although there was a split in the political and another in religion, Daniel is speaking of the political until the feet, which continues until the Lord's return. My belief is religion(clay) and political(iron).

The point I was making here was that the legs of Iron show the split of the Roman Empire.  I was not implying that Rome is singularly represented by the legs of iron.  Even so this doesn’t address the actual point of my post.


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Daniel 2:42-43.
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Here we see the picture of the emerging world scene after the fall of Rome. Some nations would rise to be strong and others would be weak. Many would mingle with one another but they would not cleave together even as iron and clay do not mix. We definitely see this with all the racism and elitism that goes on in the world and has been for some time. Nations make and break treaties as they see it benefiting them. The key here is the next verse.

In the Old Testament clay is used for the people also, Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Do you think the symbol of the eagle or eagle’s wings are meant to be interpreted the same everywhere the symbol is used?  Is Rev 12:14 to be interpreted the same as Jer 49:22?  Does context ever enter into proper interpretation?
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« Reply #115 on: April 05, 2005, 06:40:54 PM »

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While this may be true it does not answer the question of how these kingdoms could be the ones spoken of when the ones spoken of will be in power when The Messiah returns.
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Even so this doesn’t address the actual point of my post.

Pulling out one verse to meet your wants wouldn't answer anything nor does it point anything out. So lets start at the beginning of Daniel chapter 7 and you can explain your reasoning. I used reference points for Daniel chapter 2, but the analogy doesn't seem to be the same from what your saying.

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The point I was making here was that the legs of Iron show the split of the Roman Empire.
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I was not implying that Rome is singularly represented by the legs of iron.

A twist of words!

In the Old Testament clay is used for the people also, Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Do you think the symbol of the eagle or eagle’s wings are meant to be interpreted the same everywhere the symbol is used?  Is Rev 12:14 to be interpreted the same as Jer 49:22?  Does context ever enter into proper interpretation?

How much of the book of Revelation is quoted word for word from other books of the Bible? I believe I used the analogy of BOTH Daniel chapter 2 and 7 as the same! Do ten toes and ten horns mean or represent the same thing?
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« Reply #116 on: April 06, 2005, 02:39:55 AM »

A twist of words!

In what way?  This is a common tactic to avoid discussing the real issue being presented.  Focusing on your misinterpretation of what I said does not make your argument nor does it break mine.  Personally I do not wish to simply let this degenerate into a game of nitpicking.  What I said and what you thought I said has no relevance to the actual point I made in the first place so there is no point in discussing this play on words any further.  The real issue is the fact that I do not agree with your interpretation of Chapter 7 of Daniel.  I presented my reasons why.  If you want to argue (and I do not mean fight) then please focus on that point as that was the point of my post.  Let us remember that we can discuss differing views and even disagree with brotherly love.  If anything I said was taken to be hostile then I apologize as that was not my intent.

Pulling out one verse to meet your wants wouldn't answer anything nor does it point anything out. So lets start at the beginning of Daniel chapter 7 and you can explain your reasoning. I used reference points for Daniel chapter 2, but the analogy doesn't seem to be the same from what your saying.

I certainly did not pull only one verse.  However I have no problem starting at the beginning of Chapter 7 and explaining my reasoning.  I think the first 2 verses are self explanatory so let’s start at verse 3.

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Dan 7:3  And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Dan 7:4  The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Dan 7:5  And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Dan 7:6  After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Dan 7:7  After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Dan 7:8  I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

I think we can agree that these verses are talking about nations that will rise.  He describes each beast.  I think we can agree that the fourth beast he describes is the beast kingdom from which the little horn (or Anti-Christ as most call him) comes (verse 8 ).  I presume that none of this is in dispute so I will not go into any more detail about any of this at this point.  Now it lists each beast that rises and the indication is that this fourth beast is the final kingdom to rise.  Just a note, but it never says the others fell at any time.  Now the entire focus of this Chapter of Daniel is on these 4 beast kingdoms and probably most of it is on this fourth great and terrible beast and the little horn which comes from it.  The next verse is key.

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Dan 7:9  I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Now again I will take it that we agree this verse is talking about the return of The Messiah.  This is the same battle that John describes in Rev 19:19-21.  This verse starts out by telling us that the thrones were cast down.  This plural use of the word indicates that this is not speaking about just one governmental power or entity.  Since the context of this Chapter as established in its beginning leads us to understand it is talking about these 4 major beast kingdoms, then we can conclude logically that the thrones of which he is speaking are the thrones of these 4 beast kingdoms.  Let us continue on.

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Dan 7:10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Dan 7:11  I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

These verses are again describing the end of the little horn and his fate.  I do not think there is any disagreement here.  However the next verse is once again important.

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Dan 7:12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Now just in case anyone thought that thrones was a misprint then please explain what other beasts are being spoken about here?  Again this is plural and if we read it in context of the Chapter as a whole it can only be speaking about the other beast kingdoms.  Now the time and manner of their casting down is clearly explained in verses 9-11.  They are cast down when the Ancient of Days appears on the scene, the same time that the little horn meets his fate.  This precludes any possibility that they were conquered or otherwise obliterated prior to the return of The Messiah.  For them to have their dominion stripped at His return they must have it when He returns.  Thus it is logical to conclude that this is not speaking about ancient kingdoms lost to antiquity.  This is why John’s Revelation fits so well.  Daniel sees them rising as separate nations while John sees them as they attempt to merge into one system.
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« Reply #117 on: April 06, 2005, 02:40:39 AM »

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Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 13:2  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Here John describes his seven headed beast which sounds like a freak mutant.  However he describes it as a conglomeration of all 4 beasts of Daniel.  Each beast of Daniel is represented in this one beast of Revelation.  This is at the rise of the little horn and the time of the end.

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Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This is that same time described in Daniel 7:9-11.  These kings of the earth follow the beast into battle.  This is the time when these kingdoms that dominate the earth shall lose their power.  The beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire and the rest of the survivors, those from the rest of the beasts, enter into a different time.  This is the dawn of the Day of The Lord.  This is the dawn of the millennium.  After this Daniel 7:13-14 go on to describe the establishment of The Messiah’s kingdom on earth.  This is the same time that Nebuchadnezzar saw in his dream.

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Dan 2:34  Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Dan 2:35  Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.




(jumping ahead)
Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:[/u] and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 2:45  Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The stone that was cut out without hands is representative of The God of heaven.  The stone smashing the feet represents both the event and the timing of the event.  This is the symbolism describing The Messiah’s return and the stripping of these worldly kingdoms of their dominion and He does it at the time of the end, the time of the feet and toes.  This is what Daniel makes clear when he interprets this image for Nebuchadnezzar.  He interprets the different parts of the statue as representing different kingdoms and empires that will rise and fall over time beginning with Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon (Dan 2:36-40).  Then Daniel gets to the part of the interpretation explaining the feet and toes.  He speaks of a kingdom (the conglomerated beast kingdom John saw in Revelation) that is both strong and broken.  They try to mix but it does not stand.  The people never truly unite.  Then Daniel says this:

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Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

In the days of what kings?  In the days of the kings who exist at the time of the end, the kingdoms which make up the feet and toes, the kingdoms which will try to merge into John’s seven headed beast of Revelation.  Remember he is speaking about the feet and toes as he leads into this verse.  Again when read in context we see that he is clearly speaking about the time of the feet and toes, the time of the end.  And in the days that these kings stand will The Ancient of Days return to set up His kingdom.  This is how we get a frame of reference for Daniel Chapter 7 and how it fits perfectly in with Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.


How much of the book of Revelation is quoted word for word from other books of the Bible? I believe I used the analogy of BOTH Daniel chapter 2 and 7 as the same! Do ten toes and ten horns mean or represent the same thing?

As long as the context is the same, and it is in both Daniel and Revelation, then yes they do mean the same thing.  I will stop here for now.
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« Reply #118 on: April 06, 2005, 06:14:54 AM »

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I think we can agree that these verses are talking about nations that will rise.

In your own words...

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The real issue is the fact that I do not agree with your interpretation of Chapter 7 of Daniel.
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Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


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Now just in case anyone thought that thrones was a misprint then please explain what other beasts are being spoken about here?

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

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Let us remember that we can discuss differing views and even disagree with brotherly love.

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If anything I said was taken to be hostile then I apologize as that was not my intent.
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« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2005, 05:34:08 PM »

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I think we can agree that these verses are talking about nations that will rise.

In your own words...

Yes and once again you take my words out of context.  Yet this is exactly how many people choose to read the Bible.

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Mind explaining the verses?  There are different views on the proper translation as well as interpretation of these verses.  I will start with the fact that it states “And there are seven kings” which in the KJV seem to indicate that in addition to the seven heads there are also seven kings.  Just a thought but perhaps this is why John began these verses with “And here is the mind which hath wisdom”.

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Now just in case anyone thought that thrones was a misprint then please explain what other beasts are being spoken about here?

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Once again a little explanation please.  You have taken my quote which is referring to Daniel and jumped to Revelation to give an answer.  The problem is they are not referring to the same things.  It’s like using an English novel to solve problems in a Chemistry class.  What are the thrones spoken of in Daniel Chapter 7 referring to?  More so what beasts is Daniel referring to when he speaks of the “rest of the beasts” having their dominion taken from them?  These 10 horns which you have referenced are only part of one beast, the fourth beast of Daniel.  They are not in and of themselves beasts.
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