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Brother Love
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2004, 04:54:26 PM »

blackeyedpeas


Amen to all that you said.



I second that Smiley



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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2004, 04:58:49 PM »

BEP wrote:
One can't casually mix Israel with the BODY OF CHRIST and hope to understand the future history already written in the Holy Bible. Israel will most certainly be the center of world attention in the age to come. God will most certainly fulfill all of His promises to Israel, and God will most certainly fulfill all of His promises to the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST.

Nana:
I think people get confused because Isra'el means different things depending on the passage.  In Romans 9,10,11, it is clear that Paul refers to all believers in Messiah as Isra'el.  And we know that unless you are grafted into the Vine and the Root [both of which are Jesus - it is error to say that Isra'el is the root], you are not part of the true Isra'el that God has ordained.

Isra'el is also the nation that God chose to be His people.  Because they rejected Him and broke His covenant, His mercy was broadened to include the nations.  

I find it interesting to note that Stephan referred to Isra'el as the church at Mt Sinai.  But I believe that referrence ties in with Pauls exposition in Heb 12 when he reminds us of the faithful Isra'elites who believed and were counted as the true church also because of their belief in the promised Messiah.

I believe the NT is the church made manifest in a fuller sense, or the mystery made known by the revelation of Jesus Christ, and upon His teachings and Messiahship was the church further founded.  "Membership" by belief in Him for salvation.

The "church" as we know it today can mean different things - but there is only one true church - the body of Messiah - those from all denominations that are true believers and followers of Jesus.

For some time now, I have been curious as to why the NT is considered the age of grace or the dispensation of grace.  I am puzzled, because the OT talks of the Grace of God over and over again.  I understand that Jesus was grace manifested for salvation. But that does not seem to explain a grace that existed before He came.  OT salvation was extended to those who believed the promise of Messiah and were considered righteous.  The grace of God thoughout the whole Bible is extended without "favoritism"  but on the compassion and mercy of our Almighty God - who does not change and is forever the same.

Shalom, Nana
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2004, 09:28:21 PM »

Silver Surfer,
You are basing your life in God on a false premise of doing.  God does not require that we do something to earn His favor.
You're right.
Christians do...not to earn favor, but to show their love for Christ.
Jesus said: "IF...you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).
In other words:
"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous", (1 John 5:3)  

Quote

Keeping the Law of Moses has nothing to do with relationship or serving God as of the New Covenant.
I have nothing to do with the Law of Moses, as it was abolished at the cross.
I 'NEVER' tell anyone to look unto the Law of Moses, never have , and never will.

The 10 commandments of God (Exodus 20:3-17) is what I bring to the attention of people, that want to be saved.





.

Quote
As David said.  Your Word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against You.  It is so simple.  Why make it so complicated by a force of will to do commands that are not relevent to a life in Jesus?
If you don't know what sin is.....how can you not sin against God ?

You throw away the 'ONLY' thing that tells you what sin is ?!?

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MalkyEL
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2004, 09:53:34 PM »

Silver Surfer wrote:
I have nothing to do with the Law of Moses, as it was abolished at the cross.
I 'NEVER' tell anyone to look unto the Law of Moses, never have , and never will.

The 10 commandments of God (Exodus 20:3-17) is what I bring to the attention of people, that want to be saved.

Nana:
The Law was not abolished at the cross.  It was changed, redefined.  It is still the Word of God and stands as written forever.  Jesus is the end of the Law - as in keeping it by it's rules and regulations, but is still a reminder of the price He paid.

Why would you point people to the decalogue and not to Jesus?

Silver Surfer wrote:
If you don't know what sin is.....how can you not sin against God ?

You throw away the 'ONLY' thing that tells you what sin is ?!?

Nana:
I have no quarrel with the decalogue.  I am simply saying that by using it as a tally at the end of the day as a mark of success and thereby guaranteeing that we have automatically fulfilled the will of God.

The entire Word of God points to sin.  The Holy Spirit convicts of sin. When the Spirit of God indwells a believer, sin is recognized immediately.  Even the unsaved have a perception of moral apptitude.

I object to using the Law of God as a Drocules Sword hanging above our heads.

Shalom, Nana
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« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2004, 12:42:45 PM »


The 10 commandments of God (Exodus 20:3-17) is what I bring to the attention of people, that want to be saved.



You should be using Jesus Christ here...not the 10 commandments...Paul said to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved...not keep the 10 commandments and thou shalt be saved. This is a great error on your part...we need to preach Christ and him crucified...or we will cause people to go about trying to establish their own righteousness... by keeping the law...remember what Christ said about the thief and the robers, you cant come to the father except through Him. Trying to keep the 10 commandments wont save anyone. Point them to Christ, not the 10 commandments... and he will give them the law of the Spirit.....
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2004, 01:49:12 PM »

Silver Surfer,

I do understand what you have been saying. There is a difference between the "Law of Moses" and the Ten Commandments. It is a difference that many people do not understand.

The Law of Moses has to do with the sacrifice of animals, the how and wherefores of setting up the sacrifice altar plus a few other laws given by Moses. These laws were done away with, (or I should say changed) with Jesus and the cross.

The Ten Commandments were given by God to Moses on the mount. Yes these commandments do still pertain and as followers of Jesus we are to keep them. The important thing here is to understand what it means to be under the Grace of God through Jesus Christ. Those that attempt to keep these commandments without accepting this grace first will be condemned to an eternal death.

Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

If we love Jesus we will have the desire to abide by these commandments. Will we succeed even after accepting Jesus as our Saviour? No for we are still in the flesh and the flesh is weak.

Mat 26:41  Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

He will continue forgiving us for our weakness (sins).

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Can we overcome those sins when we are tempted? With His help, yes. When tempted we must take it to Him just as we must do if we were weak and fell into temptation.

That is the wonderous benefit of grace.

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


« Last Edit: November 01, 2004, 01:54:05 PM by Pastor Roger » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2004, 02:25:31 PM »

Amen brother  Smiley the law is kept by Christ in us...or fulfilled in us.

Rom 8:1  [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10  And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
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« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2004, 08:54:09 AM »

This seems like an interesting thread. I reckon i'll throw my two cents in if that's worth anything. Smiley

Here we go with the commandments rhetoric again. Pastor Roger, MalkyEL and Beeps. All very good posts from each one of you. It all lines up from what i've read, except for Silver's posts. Why does it seem everytime we get started on talking about Scripture he has to bring up the 'commandments.'

Question: If i don't keep all the commandments, am I no longer a Christian?

Answer: No...I'm still a child of God, and I still have salvation through Jesus Christ and am forgiven of my sins because of the Blood of Jesus. These verses support this:

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Colossians 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 Acts 5:29-32
But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:14-17 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Galations 4:3-7 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[1] of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[2] God through Christ.

Ok i believe that's enough for today on that subject. We are adopted sons of God, even though we can't fully keep His commandments, we are still His sons. and He will discipline us as found in Hebrews 12:3-11:

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


        "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
        Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
        For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
        And scourges every son whom He receives."


If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Ok now we see that God chastens His children. Why does he do this, because He wants us to stay on the narrow path and not deviate from it. Those who think they can keep all of His commandments 100% of the time are disillusioned and have already fallen off the path. Read what Christ says in John:

John 5:34-46
Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish--the very works that I do--bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
"I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Notice Jesus is talking to the pharisees here. He says that they search the Scriptures or (commandments of God) and in them they think they have eternal life. He also says that they've not heard the Voice that speaks of Christ. So pretty much, Jesus is pointing out here that if you focus too much on the commandments, you miss Christ completely. Christ is whom the Bible was written about. How much plainer can I get. "IN the Beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD, and the WORD was GOD" Jesus is the Word, the Bible was written so that we may know that there is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved. The Bible doesn't say there is no other 'commandment' under heaven by which men must be saved, it says there is no other NAME under heaven. So continuing to focus on the commandments is kind of dangerous...because your focus is more on the Law rather than the maker of the Law. the Creation more than the Creator. I do hope you see what i'm talking about, because my fingers are about blue from all this typing...lol.

And to all the others on here...again great posts...but i figured i'd add my two cents in...Wow this was longer than I had intended. May God richly bless the reading and study of this post and His Word.
God Bless

In His Service,
Joshua
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« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2004, 12:00:51 PM »

AMEN JOSHUA!!!

Nice Post Brother!

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2004, 12:45:09 PM »

Nana:
Quote
wonder if anyone has a different perspective or can explain  why John seems to make a contridictory statement?

John makes a little "play" on the words here that can only be understood through the Greek tensing of sin.

On the one part, the word "sin" (1 Jn 1:10) is perfect active, which simply means that one is living in a continual and constant commission of sin...or, there has been no change in the lifestyle (meaning heart).

The other (in 1 Jn. 2:1) is in 2nd aorist active subjunctive, meaning that it is considered as a "timeline", requires the active participation of the "sinner", and MAY or MAY NOT occur.  

Simply put, it would be like looking at a graph chart.

On the upper part of the chart is the state we'll call "sinless", or where we are placed by Christ AFTER we have believed.  The bottom part of the chart is the state of constantly being sinful (pre-salvation).

Looking at the line in the top, we'll see an occasional "blip", where the line drops down to the "sinful" category, before coming back up into the good part.  Kinda like an EKG.

That characterizes our life. God lifts us up (by faith and belief), but our mortal bodies and minds (Rom. 7) cause us to stumble and do wrong.  But, we no longer "reside permanently" in the sinful area, having been made the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus.

Hope this little diagram helps.
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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2004, 02:48:50 PM »


I object to using the Law of God as a Drocules Sword hanging above our heads.
And you are right.....The Law of God (the 10 commandments) is the standard by which God wants everyone to reach for, as it is, the very foundation of what LOVE is !
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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2004, 03:30:07 PM »


I object to using the Law of God as a Drocules Sword hanging above our heads.
And you are right.....The Law of God (the 10 commandments) is the standard by which God wants everyone to reach for, as it is, the very foundation of what LOVE is !

WRONG!!

The Law is the curse of sin and death.

Faith in Jesus Christ sets us free from the curse of sin and death.

We look to JESUS - not the Law. JESUS saved us - not the law. JESUS gave us life - Law gave us death.

Jesus Christ died on the Cross for us. Jesus Loves us, wants us to Love HIM, and wants us to accept HIM as Lord and Saviour.

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!
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« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2004, 04:57:57 PM »

Yup, BEP  Grin

Messiah is the foundation of Love, not the Law.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.


1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Shalom, Nana
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« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2004, 08:12:25 AM »


'Contradictions' keep it interesting.



     Cool
But, if not handled correctly, can lead to eternal destruction ....as 2 Peter 3:16 points out:

 " As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction".  
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« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2004, 05:37:05 PM »

 This topic deals with 'seemingly apparent' contraditions found in the Bible.
For example:
#1.)   "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law"(Romans 3:28).  
#2.) "(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the [doers] of the law shall be justified", (Romans 2:13).  
Both of these are valid Bible verses....and both are absolutely True !
Even though they seem to contradict each other, and both of these Bible statements are made by the same Bible writer, the Apostle Paul.

The human mind, unaided by the Holy Spirit....seems unable to make these seemingly contradictory Bible statements harmonize. The human mind will choose one Bible verse, and ignore the other....which is extremely dangerous !
WHY ?

Each epistle written by Paul was written to a particular church/culture and the issues he speaks of vary depending on the issues of that church. The first one you quoted do not seem to mean that, when it is not taken out of context. The spirit of his message in references to the law were in making a case for grace, imo. I really do not see contradictions in that one. Did not look at the other ones you quoted. I have not seen any contradictions in the Bible. Now I have seen people pick things and verses apart in attempt to create contradictions, but personally have not seen any in the Bible.

Laura
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