When did the Dispensation of Grace Start?

[Brother Love]

Part 1

Grace has existed as long as God has, eternally. God has always been a gracious God and always will be. He has always demonstrated grace to mankind. However, we are living in an age that the Bible refers to as the "dispensation of the grace of God". There are many unique qualities about the dispensation of grace and one of those qualities is that we are now saved by God's grace apart from any works. It is important to understand that anyone that has ever been saved regardless of the dispensation in which they live or lived have all been saved by God's grace through faith. However, salvation by grace WITHOUT WORKS was not preached prior to the Apostle Paul. There is a difference between what was required in times past for salvation and what is required today for salvation. The gospel or good news in times past has always been salvation by grace plus works. The gospel for today is salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8, 9).
Let's look closely at today's gospel for salvation and then we'll compare that to the gospel in times past. The gospel for this age of grace is that in order for us to be saved we must believed that Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day.
I Corinthians 15:1 - 4 "Moreover, brethren, I (Paul) declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
It is very important to keep in mind the details of the gospel, which are the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ FOR OUR SINS. The forgiveness of our sins relies totally on what Christ accomplished on the cross. Christ's death on the cross was the payment for all sins past, present and future. As a result of his death, burial and resurrection justification could be offered as a free gift to all men (Rom. 3:22). We receive this free gift of justification by simply believing that the faith of Jesus Christ (Him being obedient to the cross, Philippians 2: was sufficient payment for our sins. When we believe in the propitiation (totally satisfying sacrifice) of Jesus Christ we are justified or made righteous (Romans 3: 25,26). All that is required for salvation today is for one to believe this gospel.
The gospel we preach is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, but what was the gospel prior to Paul's ministry? Let's look at John the Baptist and the gospel he preached. Matthew 3:1, 2 say, "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, and saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." John preached the gospel of the Kingdom. The good news for that age was the coming of the heavenly kingdom to the earth. What did John preach as the means of salvation? Mark 1:4 says "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." John preached that in order to receive the remission of sins they must repent and be baptized. (The word remission means to be released from the guilt or penalty of sin.) John's gospel required that in order to be saved one must repent and be water baptized. This gospel mentions nothing of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the means for salvation and was a grace plus works gospel.
This we know was the gospel that John the Baptist preached but what about Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry? Matthew 4:17 says, "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Verse 23 says "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people." Mark 16:15 is after the cross and here we read,
"And He (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
This is the gospel that Christ preached Himself before the Cross and also the gospel that He commanded to be preached after the cross. Again, this gospel mentions nothing of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the means of salvation. This was a works oriented gospel and involved a water baptism ritual. Also, notice in this passage the verses that follow (16 - 18). If this is our gospel for today why are we not obedient to these verses which state that following belief and baptism these signs shall follow; cast out devils, speak with tongues, take up serpents, drink deadly things, lay hands on the sick?

[Brother Love]

Part 2

A record of the same gospel is found in Matthew 28:19, 20. This is after the cross where Christ gives the disciples their commission.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Notice there is no mention of the cross work of Christ as being the totally satisfying sacrifice for sin. In the book of Acts we find the Apostle Peter carrying out the commission that Christ commanded to be preached. In this passage notice that the cross is not preached as good news as we preach it today. Rather, Peter is preaching the cross as BAD NEWS to the nation of Isreal.
Acts 2:22, "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."
Does it sound like Peter is preaching the cross as something that was good? No, his purpose was to convince the nation of Israel that they needed to repent of their sin and be baptized. (Compare this passage to I Corinthians 15:1-4 where Paul gives the cross as the gospel or GOOD NEWS.) Now notice the result of Peter's preaching in Acts 2:37.
"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
The people that Peter preached this message to were "pricked in their heart" that they had crucified and slain the Lord. We do not present the cross today as something that was not good. We are to rejoice in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ because we now know that without it we would be eternally lost. Was Peter out of the will of God because he preached the cross as bad news? No, Peter was an Apostle of God and was fulfilling the commission that Christ gave to him and the other eleven Apostles.
Notice how the hearers of this message in Acts 2:37 responded. They said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" These folks want to be saved! Does Peter answer their question with; just believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for justification as a free gift (as we should say in response to this same question)? No, rather he answers with,
Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Peter is preaching a works oriented gospel that required water baptism for salvation. He mentions nothing of the Blood of Christ as the means of salvation. This message of salvation by grace without works is not revealed until it was later revealed to the Apostle Paul. This is why Peter didn't preach grace. It was still a mystery.
A logical question is, "What about the thief on the cross, wasn't he saved without works?" Let's look at the thief's situation. The thief was obviously a lawbreaker and was receiving just punishment for his crimes for in Luke 23:41 the thief states "And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds". We also know that the thief was saved because Jesus said to the thief in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Knowing that the thief at one time was lost and at a later time was saved we should be curious as to when the thief was saved. Let's look at a couple of verses that will help determine this. In Matthew 27:38 we read, "Then were there two thieves crucified with Him, one on the right hand, and another on the left." Verses 39 - 43 tell how those that passed by reviled Christ and the chief priests mocked Him with the scribes and elders. Then in verse 44 we read, "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth." Obviously, at this point both thieves were lost. In Mark 15:32 we read, "Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with Him reviled Him." From reading these verses we can see that initially both thieves were lost. Knowing these facts we can safely determine that the thief was saved while he was on the cross. So how was the thief saved while on the cross if the gospel states that repentance and water baptism were required for the remission of sins? To repent means to have a change of heart. From reading Luke 23:41 we know that the thief had repented of his sins. So, the thief did fulfill the first part of the requirement. However, the gospel at that time stated that one must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. So, why was the thief saved regardless of not being water baptized? Let's look at a passage that may help explain this. Mark 16:15, 16 "And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Notice that Christ says, "he that believeth not shall be damned". Now notice that He didn't say "he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned". This verse tells us that the primary issue with God is the belief of an individual, even at a time when works were required for salvation. God knows our hearts and he knows the sincerity of our faith. Our obedience to God's Word will reflect the sincerity of a believer's inward faith. The outward expression of faith will respond as God instructs which He does through His Word. The definition of faith is to take God at His Word (Romans 10:17). At the time of the cross God instructed believers to be water baptized and true faith would respond by being obedient unto water baptism. It was not the water baptism that did the saving. However, God had instructed to be water baptized so if one wasn't obedient to God's Word by being water baptized then their inward faith was vain. So why was the thief spared? We must take into account the situation of the thief that before he hung on the cross he was a lost person. He repented while on the cross. God knew the inward faith of the thief. God knew whether or not the thief would be obedient unto water baptism if he was free from captivity. The thief was hanging from a cross and of course would not be released to partake in water baptism. He did not have the opportunity to show his faith by being obedient to the commandment of water baptism. God is most assuredly a just God and would not punish anyone for not being obedient due to physical impossibilities.
So what is the outward expression of faith required for believers in this age of grace. Today God instructs us not to be water baptized as expression of our inward faith. Today God only says "believe" (Romans 3:22). This is the message of grace apart from works and was not revealed until the Apostle Paul. We now know by the scriptures what the Blood of Christ accomplished. We now have the complete revelation of God about the cross because that message of grace was revealed to the Apostle Paul. Colossians 1:25 says,
"Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me (Paul) for you, to fulfill the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints:"
The fact that the dispensation of grace was given first to the Apostle Paul is stated by the scriptures in Ephesians 3:1 - 5.
"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward. How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."
Notice in these passages that the dispensation of the grace of God was given to Paul. This message was a mystery until the resurrected Jesus Christ from Heaven revealed it to the Apostle Paul. Thus, Paul can say by the inspiration of God…
Galatians 1:11, "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."
Romans 3:21, "BUT NOW (in the age of grace) the righteousness of God without the law is manifested."
I Corinthians 11:1, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." (Also reference I Corinthians 4:16 and Philippians 3:17).
Ephesians 2:8, 9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Romans 5:9, "being NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD"
Remember that our salvation is by grace through faith without works. This message could only be preached knowing what the cross work of Christ accomplished. It is this very message of salvation by grace without works that wasn't revealed until it was revealed until the Apostle Paul.
Other facts of interest:
Paul could say in I Corinthians 1:17 "Christ sent me not to baptize". Could the 12 Apostles say this and still be in the will of God?
Paul rebukes Peter for preaching another gospel to the Galatians. (Galatians 2:11, 14)
The day of Pentecost was still being observed after the Cross (Acts 2:1). The day of Pentecost was required under the law (Leviticus 23:15, 16; Deut. 16:9). Pentecost is the Greek name for Passover. Paul rebukes the Galatians for observing "days, and months, and times, and years." (Gal. 4:9, 10)

<))><

[Shammu]

During Old Testament times, before this present dispensation of grace began, Gentiles were always blessed through the exaltation of Israel. As we shall see, Old Testament passages such as Gen.26:4; Gen.28:14; Is.2:1-4; Is.27:13; Micah 4:1-3; Zech.8:20-23; Zech.14:16, made it clear that Gentiles would never be able to approach God without first blessing the nation of Israel.

Such is not the case today, though, because the apostle Paul states that Gentiles are now saved through the fall of Israel, rather than through her exaltation, in Romans. 11:11-13 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office

1 Cor. 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Not once did the Old Testament scriptures ever foresee that Uncircumcised Gentiles would some day be saved through Israel's fall. Nor did they prophesy that Christ would die for the sins of Uncircumcised Gentiles, as Paul explains in the above passage. One may search the scriptures from Genesis through the book of John, and never find any mention of these doctrines, because they are identified with the "mystery" that was revealed to Paul alone.

 

Or if you wish, a short version.

The dispensation of grace began when the church came into existence or when the church began which is in Acts 2. The church is the Body of Christ where all are on an equal standing especially Jew and Gentile! Until Acts 10 the church could not have existed in its completed form because only Jews and Samaritans were in the Body. The Gentile was not addmitted to the Body until Acts 10 and so although the church "began" in Acts 2 it was not "complete" until Acts 10. The Jew and Gentiles are now on an equal footing, and so it did not begin proper until Acts 10.

[BigD]

PART 1

DreamWEaver posted:
"The dispensation of grace began when the church came into existence or when the church began which is in Acts 2. The church is the Body of Christ where all are on an equal standing especially Jew and Gentile! Until Acts 10 the church could not have existed in its completed form because only Jews and Samaritans were in the Body. The Gentile was not addmitted to the Body until Acts 10 and so although the church "began" in Acts 2 it was not "complete" until Acts 10. The Jew and Gentiles are now on an equal footing, and so it did not begin proper until Acts 10."

BigD responds

Taken from: http://www.starlightresearch.com/ActsProblems.html

PROBLEM NO. 9 --THAT THE DAY OF PENTECOST IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST. THIS INCLUDES THE DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD

This is the doctrine that gives Acts 2 brethren their name - Acts 2 Dispensationalists. This is the most popular form of Dispensationalism.

Their main argument for starting the Church in Acts 2 is the baptism of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts 2:4 and in Acts 11:15-16. They say that this 'baptism' places believers into the Body of Christ, thereby equating this with the 'baptism' of 1 Cor. 12:13 (Dispensationalism Today by C.C. Ryrie, pages 136,137; Moody Press; 1965).

They also point to the word 'church' in Acts 2:47 of the King James Bible. Of course, they believe that Peter preached Christianity on this day and that he presented the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation; in other words, Peter preached the Gospel of the grace of God.


THE TRUTH

The only way and the Scriptural way to solve the many problems that Acts 2 causes is to move over from Acts 2 to Acts 9 (just7 chapters), and begin the Church and this Dispensation of grace with the salvation of Saul/Paul. In making this simple little move, one's whole outlook and perspective changes in how to view and understand the Word of God, especially in the book of Acts. Instead of starting things on a very controversial Jewish festival day and dream up human interpretations to defend it, it is best to start things when God did something different. And certainly the salvation of Saul was different from anything that had happened before it or after it. It was unique (1 Tim. 1:15-16).

In making this move, the doctrines of the Bible are enhanced rather than lost or given up. Truth about the Church becomes clearer. This move allows the Holy Spirit to work in us according to His teaching ministry to believers. And most of all, our RISEN Lord and Head, Christ Jesus, is honored and glorified when we preach Him according to His heavenly ministry for this Age of grace.

Charles F. Baker, in his 'A Dispensational Theology,' pages 483-486, gives 12 Scriptural reasons why the Church, the Body of Christ, could not have begun on the Day of Pentecost. Instead of quoting from his theology, we will look at the more obvious reasons taken from Acts 2 and 3. The Day of Pentecost covers two whole chapters - Acts 2 and 3.

1. The Day of Pentecost was one of the important feast days in Israel's calendar (Lev. 15:22). This religious feast day belonged to Israel alone. It was one of the three great annual festivals, the other two being the Passover and Tabernacles.

Now I realize that believers today in this Age of grace can learn a lot from the Old Testament. This is one thing that the Apostle Paul wrote about to the assembly at Rome (Romans 15:4 - "For whatsoever things were written aforetime [before] were written for our learning ... " 'learning' refers to 'teaching,' indicating that the Old Testament is important for the Christian. But please notice that this verse DOES NOT SAY that the Old Testament Scriptures are for our obedience.. To 'obey' the Old Testament Scriptures is impossible in the light of the cross of Christ (Col. 2:14).

Therefore, to bring this major Jewish festival of the Old Testament into Christianity and make it a major doctrine of Christianity, causes believers to become inconsistent in their doctrine and walk before the Lord. Bringing Pentecost into Christianity mixes Judaism with Christianity. It is-this part of the Word of God that causes all the problems that the Acts 2 position teaches. Acts 2 brethren NEED to remove the Church from Acts 2 and place it in Acts 9 where it belongs. Then they will be able to rightly divide the Word of truth consistently.

2. The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16) was administered by the Lord Jesus Christ just as John the Baptist said He would do, as recorded in Matt. 3:11, "...He [Jesus] shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit..." This baptizing ministry of our Lord was done on the Day of Pentecost. This baptism was NOT performed by the Holy Spirit like we read about in 1 Cor. 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body..." Acts 2 Dispensationalists cannot understand that the two baptisms mentioned here are DIFFERENT BAPTISMS performed by two different members of the Godhead. The verse in 1 Cor. 12:13 does not relate to the Day of Pentecost. They confuse the ministry of Christ with the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Their arguments for putting 1 Cor. 12:13 into Acts 2 are very weak.

3. Peter's two messages in Acts 2 and 3 are related to the DAY OF THE LORD (Acts 2:17-21; 3:19-23). This particular period of time is part of the LAST DAYS of Israel rather than to the first days of the Church, the Body of Christ. The Day of the Lord covers the Tribulation Period and the Millennium, not this Dispensation of the grace of God

By Robert C. Brock

Continued in PART 2

God Bless.
Live Well,  Laugh Often,  Love the Lord!

[BigD]

PART 2:

4. The gospel message that Peter used to close his two messages was the Gospel of the Kingdom, the only gospel Peter knew, as seen in Acts 2:38-39 especially (also Acts 3:19). They were to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and then the Holy Spirit would be given to those who believed. Repentance was NATIONAL as well as INDIVIDUAL, and had to take place FIRST before any of God's blessings would come (Joel 2:12-17).

How did Peter proclaim the death and resurrection of Christ?

First of all, the Apostle Peter accused the Nation of murdering their Messiah. He told them twice that they killed Him (Acts 2:23), and they killed the Prince of life (Acts 3:15).

Second, in relation to the resurrection, Peter said that God raised Him from the dead in order to sit on David's throne (Acts 2:30). This is one of the reasons for the resurrection of Christ.

The Apostle Paul did not teach about the death and resurrection of Christ like Peter did.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is NOT God's message for this Age of grace. Acts 2 brethren know this but do not know what to do with it. They do not like what Peter taught about being baptized in water MR the forgiveness of sins. They realize that this is not the same thing that Paul wrote in Eph. 1:7 and in Col. 1:14, that forgiveness of sins is NOW by the blood of Christ.

One of America's greatest Greek scholars, A.T. Robertson, a very strong Baptist teacher, strongly disliked Acts 2:38. He taught that the 'for' in the phrase 'be baptized ... FOR the remission of sins' means 'because of.' The Greek preposition for 'for' is EIS. He used Matt. 12:41 as the proof, where it is stated 'they repented at [EIS] the preaching of Jonah.' He also said in his book 'A Grammar of the-Greek New Testament' on page 592 in relation to Acts 2:38, that the right translation of this verse depended on the interpreter instead of the grammarian (translator). In a list of meanings for EIS, he left out 'for,' a legitimate meaning that the Greek lexicons recognize. The meaning of 'because of' is not recognized by the lexicons for EIS.

What can be said about this? The answer is that if the meaning of 'because of' was the intended meaning in Acts 2:38 and in Matt. 12:41, then the Holy Spirit would have guided Luke and Matthew to use the Greek preposition DIA in the accusative case, for DIA in the accusative case means 'because of.' But it is EIS that is used instead, and so we must accept the meaning of 'for' as making more sense than the other meanings of EIS. Besides, the meaning of 'for' is consistent with its use in describing the work of John the Baptist (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Matt. 26:28) and our Lord's teaching.

Another problem that Acts 2 brethren have is that they believe in only one gospel. Hence, they have to change the obvious meaning of Acts 2:38 so that it fits into the Gospel of the grace of God. And they do this by attacking the Greek preposition EIS.

5. All the Jewish believers on the Day of Pentecost had everything in common (Acts 2:44-45). They shared everything they had with one another so that no one lacked anything.

Had not the Lord told His disciples earlier to sell all that they had and to follow Him? (Luke 12:1,29-34). Matthew's record of this teaching is found in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 6:31-34). On another occasion the Lord had said the same thing to a rich young ruler (Mark 10:21). Could it have been possible that this rich young ruler was born again on the Day of Pentecost and shared all his possessions with the Jewish believers? The Lord had sown the seed in his heart, and after thinking about it for some time, he could have accepted Peter's invitation of Acts 2:38-39 and been saved. Many thousands were born again back then (at least 5,000 men - Acts 2:41; 4:4), and it would have taken a lot of earthly possessions in order to meet everyone's needs.

Is this condition of 'sharing' going on now? Absolutely not! As a matter of fact, it didn't last too long in the book of Acts, just a few years, maybe 10-20 at the most. Paul wrote in Rom. 15:26 about the POOR SAINTS that were in Jerusalem. He and sanefrom the Gentile churches in Greece wanted to help them out, which they did. Something had happened in the book of Acts that led to their being poor - probably the unbelief of the Jewish Nation, and the beginning of God's heavenly purpose through the Apostle of the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul (Rom. 11:13).

6. In Acts 3, the Apostle Peter said that their Messiah would come back if they would repent and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).Peter did not offer the earthly Kingdom of God to the Church. He offered it to the Nation of Israel! This was an honest, genuineoffer of the Kingdom to Israel. He went to Moses and to all the prophets from Samuel onwards, and even back to Abraham, showing them that this was God's plan for them IF they really believed it. But we know that they did not believe it.

The Body of Christ is not a part of Old Testament prophecy or history. The Body of Christ was kept secret in God, hidden in Him until revealed to the Apostle Paul (Ran. 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 3:9).

So then, here are six very good reasons why the Body of Christ did not begin on the Day of Pentecost. There is just no reason to put it in Acts 2 under those circumstances. And believe me, it becomes a wonderful blessing when you do get it OUT of Acts2 and place it in Acts 9 where it belongs.

This Dispensation of the grace of God was given to the Apostle Paul, as is so clearly stated in Eph. 3:2, "If [Seeing that] you have heard of the Dispensation of the grace of God which is given to me for you." Peter did not write this! John did not write this! Paul wrote it, but Christendom does not want to accept it. If Christendom would sincerely accept the truth of this verse, it would start a world-wide revival with millions of people saved. But until it does, confusion will abound among believers because of unbelief.
Robert C. Brock

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[AJ]

During Old Testament times, before this present dispensation of grace began, Gentiles were always blessed through the exaltation of Israel. As we shall see, Old Testament passages such as Gen.26:4; Gen.28:14; Is.2:1-4; Is.27:13; Micah 4:1-3; Zech.8:20-23; Zech.14:16, made it clear that Gentiles would never be able to approach God without first blessing the nation of Israel.

Such is not the case today, though, because the apostle Paul states that Gentiles are now saved through the fall of Israel, rather than through her exaltation, in Romans. 11:11-13 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office

1 Cor. 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Not once did the Old Testament scriptures ever foresee that Uncircumcised Gentiles would some day be saved through Israel's fall. Nor did they prophesy that Christ would die for the sins of Uncircumcised Gentiles, as Paul explains in the above passage. One may search the scriptures from Genesis through the book of John, and never find any mention of these doctrines, because they are identified with the "mystery" that was revealed to Paul alone.

 

Or if you wish, a short version.

The dispensation of grace began when the church came into existence or when the church began which is in Acts 2. The church is the Body of Christ where all are on an equal standing especially Jew and Gentile! Until Acts 10 the church could not have existed in its completed form because only Jews and Samaritans were in the Body. The Gentile was not addmitted to the Body until Acts 10 and so although the church "began" in Acts 2 it was not "complete" until Acts 10. The Jew and Gentiles are now on an equal footing, and so it did not begin proper until Acts 10.

Amen DreamWeaver   The Church began in Acts 2! Gods wonderfull Grace is now extended to both Jew and Gentile.
Peter also seen the Pauline Revelation... as did the rest of Gods holy apostles and prophets by the spirit. God showed Peter in a vision that the Gentiles were also accepted with him, and that there is no respect of persons with him...

Bless his Holy Name

[BigD]

AJ:
You posted:
"Amen DreamWeaver   The Church began in Acts 2! Gods wonderfull Grace is now extended to both Jew and Gentile.
Peter also seen the Pauline Revelation... as did the rest of Gods holy apostles and prophets by the spirit. God showed Peter in a vision that the Gentiles were also accepted with him, and that there is no respect of persons with him..."

BigD responds:
FYI the Body of Christ, the Chruch for this dispensation of grace is Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction.

Now if you will just SHOW me, prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, that Jew and Gentile were on equal footing and without distinction , THEN I WILL BELIEVE YOU AND GW.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[AJ]

author=BigD Now if you will just SHOW me, prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, that Jew and Gentile were on equal footing and without distinction , THEN I WILL BELIEVE YOU AND GW.

No problem brother...right from the mouth of the grace giver himself.

Act 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.= Jew and Gentile


Also

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.


Go ye therefore, and teach all nations=Jew and Gentile


This was long before the calling of Paul....Peter needed a fresh revelation concerning this, but this was Gods plan from the begining.

God bless you brother

[BigD]

author=BigD Now if you will just SHOW me, prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, that Jew and Gentile were on equal footing and without distinction , THEN I WILL BELIEVE YOU AND GW.

No problem brother...right from the mouth of the grace giver himself.

Act 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.= Jew and Gentile

Also

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations=Jew and Gentile

This was long before the calling of Paul....Peter needed a fresh revelation concerning this, but this was Gods plan from the begining.

God bless you brother

BigD responds:
You have not SHOWN ME what I requested. Therefore, it is you that has the problem.

During the time preiod of Acts 1:6-8 and Matthew 28:18-20 there was still a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. During that time period for a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Law.

The "middle wall of partition" didn't come down until AFTER the setting aside of the nation of Israel.

Israel was not Set aside until AFTER Israel, as a nation, rejected God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

They rejected God the FAther when they, as a nation, refused to repent and be baptized of John and ALLOWED him to be killed. Also, they went about establishing their own righteousness (Rms 10:3).

They rejected God the Son when they, as a nation, DEMANDED that Jesus be crucified.

The rejected God the Holy/Spirit Ghost when THEY KILLED (stoned) Stephen, in Acts 7, who was filled with the HOly Ghost.

According to the OT promises, the world was to be blessed through the nation of Israel. Jesus Himself said that "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 15:24). Jesus commanded that His disciples "...go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 10:6). Paul says Romans 15:8 that Jesus came to "...confirm the promises made to the fathers."

Under the "so called" great commission of Matthew 28,  and Mark 16 they were to preach "the gospel of the kingdom" and according to Luke 24:47 they were to start at Jerusalem.

We find the order of that commission in Acts 1:8. Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and then the utter most parts of the earth.

Why Jrusalem first. Well, that is where the leaders of the Jewish Chruch were. Didn't Jesus command His disciples and the multitude to "observe and do" what they said?

Judea is where the Southern two tribes of Israel were located. That is where Jesus and His disciples confined their ministry. They, as a whole, had to accept Jesus as there Messiah.

Then the disciples were to go to Samaria. That is were the 10 "break away" Northern tribes were located. They are the "othere sheep" of John 10:16. If they would repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah then Israel would then again be "one fold", and they would have "one shepherd."

After it is again "one fold" and united under "one shepherd" THEN they were to go to the utter most parts of the earth with the gospel of the kingdom, not "the gospel of the grace of God."

According to the OT prophesies, the world is to blessed through the nation of Israel. Tell me now, How can the world be blessed through the nation of Israel when they, as a nation, rejected their King and His Kingdom? How can the "so called" great commission be carried out?

We know from Genesis 11 that God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Bable. We know from Acts 7 that Israel, as a nation, has rejected the 3rd Person of the Trinity, after already rejection God the Father and God the Son. We see that Saul/Paul was raised up in Acts 9, and in Acts 10 we see that God is showing Peter that the Jew and Gentile are Now on equal footing and without distinction. Romans 11:32 tell us "For God hath concluded them all (Jew and Gentile) in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all."

From the two "set aside" peoples God made(the new creation) the "one new man" of Epehsians 2:15; now called "the Body of Christ", and is "the Chruch for this dispensation of grace." (See Ephesians 2:13-18.)

So, when you SHOW ME Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, I WILL believe you. Also, I might add, that the law was still in force at the time that Saul/Paul was converted. The Body of Christ, the Church for today is not under the Law, but under GRACE.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[AJ]

BigD says..After it is again "one fold" and united under "one shepherd" THEN they were to go to the utter most parts of the earth with the gospel of the kingdom, not "the gospel of the grace of God."

There is only one gosple brother... therefore i do not have a problem

But it was nice talking to you

God bless

[AJ]

BigD responds:
You have not SHOWN ME what I requested. Therefore, it is you that has the problem.

I also didnt say you had a problem...you need to reread my post. I said no problem brother...i will not debate with a person who seems to be an Ultra dispensationalist...they believe in two gosples, one is enough for me

Later Bro

[Evangelist]

Now if you will just SHOW me, prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, that Jew and Gentile were on equal footing and without distinction , THEN I WILL BELIEVE YOU AND GW.

Trying to keep it short:

Act 10:34
Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

ONE Lord....ONE faith....ONE baptism.....ONE Gospel.

the "middle wall of partition" didn't come down until AFTER the setting aside of the nation of Israel.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

[BigD]

AJ:
When I asked you to SHOW ME the Body of Christ prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, your replied "No problem brother..." Then you failed to SHOW ME.

Therefore, are the one with the problem because you can't SHOW ME.

Also, you say that there is only one Gospel. Well, my Bible reads a little different then your does then.

Galatians 2:7 "But contrariwise, when they say that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter."

Looks like two (2) different gospels to me.

Further, I am not a hyper-dispensationalist or a denominationalist. See my postion on -  Bible Study / Re:IS Matthew Mark Luke and John in the New  on: September 17, 2004, 04:14:43 AM.

Then, if you still think I am a hyper-dispy, then point out to me why I am. I would appreciate that.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!  

[BigD]

Now if you will just SHOW me, prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul, that Jew and Gentile were on equal footing and without distinction , THEN I WILL BELIEVE YOU AND GW.

Trying to keep it short:

Act 10:34
Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

ONE Lord....ONE faith....ONE baptism.....ONE Gospel.

the "middle wall of partition" didn't come down until AFTER the setting aside of the nation of Israel.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

BigD responds:
Acts 10 is AFTER Saul/Paul was converted.

Mat 27:51 says nothing that the Jew and Gentile were now on equal footing and without distinction. Peter confirms this in Acts 10:28. He was never shown prior to Acts 10 that the Gentile was not longer to be considered "unclean."

[Evangelist]

Mat 27:51 says nothing that the Jew and Gentile were now on equal footing and without distinction. Peter confirms this in Acts 10:28. He was never shown prior to Acts 10 that the Gentile was not longer to be considered "unclean."

Why was the veil rent? What was the meaning of it's rending?

Peter wasn't shown, but Phillip was. A non-jew, even though a proselyte, was still considered by the Jews to be a gentile. Such was their status that they were prohibited entry into the temple to any place other than the court of the gentiles.

What was the meaning of the words "...and were added to the CHURCH daily such as should be saved..."  at a time when Saul was still "breathing out threatenings and slaughters". ?