Fear, motivates the Secret Rapture theory ?

[Silver Surfer]

Silver Surfer.  When you stand before God, and he asks you "why should I let you into my kingdom?" what will your answer be?

Revelation  22:14   "Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city".  

And this is what Jesus Christ mentioned, when some asks him how they might gain eternal life, (Matthew 19:16,17.....Mark 10:17-19).

[2nd Timothy]

Silver Surfer.  When you stand before God, and he asks you "why should I let you into my kingdom?" what will your answer be?

Revelation  22:14   "Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city".  

And this is what Jesus Christ mentioned, when some asks him how they might gain eternal life, (Matthew 19:16,17.....Mark 10:17-19).

Lets take a look at exactly what Jesus did say...

Mat 19:16  And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18  He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19  Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20  The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21  Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22  But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23  Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25  When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26  But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Not possible for men to do it!  But only God.


Mat 19:27  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The word for regeneration is pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah meaning rebirth

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So again I ask.  Will you tell God that because you have kept his commandments He should allow you into heaven, even  after Jesus himself says here that man could not do it?  If this is your answer, I fear and pray for you SilverSurfer.  Open your eyes to the truth of the Gospel.  

Grace and Peace!

[Silver Surfer]

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

"Whosoever is born of God [does not] commits sin", (1 John 3:9).
"Whosever commits sin, transgresses the Law, for sin is the transgression of the Law", (1 John 3:4).
"Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that [keep] the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).

So again I ask.  Will you tell God that because you have kept his commandments He should allow you into heaven, even  after Jesus himself says here that man could not do it?

Jesus said: "IF you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).
"Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say ", (John 15:14).

[2nd Timothy]

"Whosoever is born of God [does not] commits sin", (1 John 3:9).
"Whosever commits sin, transgresses the Law, for sin is the transgression of the Law", (1 John 3:4).
"Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that [keep] the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).

Again, you have failed to read the entire passage....pay close attention now......

1Jo 3:21  Beloved, if our heart does not accuse us, we have confidence with God.
1Jo 3:22  And whatever we ask, we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments, and we do the things pleasing before Him.
1Jo 3:23  And this is His commandment, that we should believe the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as He gave command to us.
1Jo 3:24  And the one keeping His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He gave to us.

We are saved by Grace SS, not by works of the law.  Sure we keep his commands, Loving one another and believing in the Jesus Christ.   All 10 commands from the OT were fulfilled on the cross.  The sabbath became Christ himself.  We ENTER rest when we enter Christ.   You will not enter heaven because of law keeping.   You will only enter heaven by being in him which happens only by grace through faith.

His commands are all about Love.

14:15-18 "If you love me, you will obey what I command

14:21 "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me

John 15:12-13 "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."

John 15:17 "This is my command: Love each other

No where does he state the sabbath as evidence of a person being in Christ.  It is our Love for one another, the same way Christ Loved us.   Not who is keeping sabbaths.  I have no issue with you wanting to worship on saturday.  But I assure you God has no problem with anyone wanting to worship on Sunday or any other day of the week for that matter.  HE is our Sabbath.  HE is our rest, HE is our saviour.  Not the days of the week.   If you're answer to God when He asks why you should be allowed into heaven is anything other than....

Because Jesus Christ, my Lord and saviour, shed his blood for my sins.    You might want to examine your beliefs friend.  I encourage you to come into his rest today and know him as your personal saviour if you do not.   Don't bank on your abilities to keep laws, bank on the Lord of the sabbath, who did keep all the laws and shed his blood for you.   He is the way, the truth and the life.   Believe on Him!

Grace and Peace!

[nChrist]

2nd Timothy Said:

No where does he state the sabbath as evidence of a person being in Christ.  It is our Love for one another, the same way Christ Loved us.  Not who is keeping sabbaths.  I have no issue with you wanting to worship on saturday.  But I assure you God has no problem with anyone wanting to worship on Sunday or any other day of the week for that matter.  

HE is our Sabbath.  HE is our rest, HE is our saviour.  Not the days of the week.

If you're answer to God when He asks why you should be allowed into heaven is anything other than....

AMEN BROTHER!!! The Holy Bible tells us so in many precious portions of Scripture.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Silver Surfer]

"Whosoever is born of God [does not] commits sin", (1 John 3:9).
"Whosever commits sin, transgresses the Law, for sin is the transgression of the Law", (1 John 3:4).
"Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that [keep] the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).

Again, you have failed to read the entire passage....pay close attention now......

We are saved by Grace SS, not by works of the law.  

 Romans 6:14   For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.  
  6:15   What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.  

No where does he state the sabbath as evidence of a person being in Christ.

"If..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).

It is our Love for one another, the same way Christ Loved us.   Not who is keeping sabbaths.  I have no issue with you wanting to worship on saturday.  But I assure you God has no problem with anyone wanting to worship on Sunday or any other day of the week for that matter.

Romans  6:16   "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?"

Because Jesus Christ, my Lord and saviour, shed his blood for my sins.  

John 15:22   "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin".
 Acts 17:30   "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent".
 
 

[Evangelist]

The "theology" of Tribulation and Rapture, known as "dispensationalism", comes out of 18th century Britain (Scotland, I think).  Historically it has no basis in Judaism or the Early Church (or later Church until 1900something). It's new.  The theology made it to the US by way of the man who founded the Plymouth Brethren.  Scofield's Bible further spread this theology unfounded in the historical texts; Scofield's footnotes became so popular in the US that many have no idea what is "Bible" and what is Scofield--they became one and the same.

Gee, Sheela.....I had thought you had presented yourself as knowledgeable, incisive, and current in your research.

Guess I was wrong.

Item: Darby didn't know MacDonald. Darby's first writings were in 1827, whereas MacDonald's "vision" didn't occur 'til '35.  MacDonald's vision was not "pre-trib" in nature, and Darby's understanding related principally to the distinction between the Church (body of Christ) and Israel, both as a national entity and God's chosen people.  The early Church well understood this "mystery" as Paul put it, but it was not until the mid 300's that Augustine began promoting "replacement" theology, which then held sway until the mid-1800's.

Item:
In about 325 AD, a series of sermons resulting in published books were made by Ephraem, bishop of Syria, where he expounded on his understanding of the Daniel, the Olivet Discourse and the Revelation of Jesus Christ.  His sermon was called:
On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World

Following are snips.

Section 1, Para 2:
In those days two brothers will come to the Roman empire who will rule with one mind; but because one will surpass the other, there will be a schism between them. And so the Adversary will be loosed and will stir up hatred between the Persian and Roman empires. In those days many will rise up against Rome; the Jewish people will be her adversaries. There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earth quakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come.

Section 2, Para 1:
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging.  (snip)...
For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (snip)...

As if this were not early enough, consider Ignatius, a cohort of Onesimus and Paul, who penned these words to the Ephesians in a letter of exhortation (around 80-90AD):
...These are the last times. Henceforth let us have reverence; let us fear the long-suffering of God, lest it turn into a judgment against us and we be left to suffer tribulation when the Lord shall come for His own. Either let us fear the wrath which is to come or let us love the grace which now is -- the one or the other; provided only that we be found in Christ Jesus unto true life. (snip)
...If Jesus Christ should count me worthy through your prayer, and it should be the Divine will, in my second tract, which I intend to write to you, I will
further set before you the dispensation whereof I have begun to speak,... (snip)


Finally:
The theology of tribulation is well established in Jewish eschatology, and can easily be traced back to many of the Jewish sages and Sanhedrin, writing both before and after Christ.

One of the bones of contention that existed between the Pharisees and Sadducees involved not just a resurrection, but deliverance from tribulation, a thing which the Sadducees maintained would not occur.

[nChrist]

sheelanagigs,

The Apostle Paul preached what you say is a modern invention. Tribulation and Rapture were preached about over 2,000 years ago in detail. One would have to ignore most of the New Testament and numerous portions of the Old Testament to say that someone in the 1800s invented anything at all on this subject. Daniel and other portions of the Old Testament support the writing of the Apostle Paul, much like other writers in the New Testament.

Regarding "dispensation", that isn't new or invented either. It was also taught by the Apostle Paul over 2,000 years ago. The examples would be numerous, but here's one that is a most precious truth for today:

Ephesians 3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Casual Bible students will easily know that Paul is talking about the Dispensation of Grace, THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD, the GOOD NEWS! The Apostle Paul had a focus for his ministry 2,000 years ago, and everything he taught then is the most precious TRUTH for today. His focus was THE CROSS, THE GIFT of GOD, THE GRACE of GOD, THE LOVE of GOD, THE PURPOSE OF THE CROSS, AND A LIVING SAVIOUR.

2 Timothy 2:1  Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 2:2  And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 explains why many precious TRUTHS of the Holy Bible are unknown to many.

Tom

[fiveeyern]

Sorry this ended up being such a long post, but it's something I felt compelled to share.
I didn't take the time to read the entire thread, but I would just like to share about myself.  I grew up a Southern Baptist, and still go to a southern baptist church.  So I grew up a premillenial, pre-trib, dispensationalist.  I really didn't even know much about other views, such as amillenialism and postmillenialism.  All I knew was what I read about them in premillenial books.  I attended a two year baptist bible college.  Quite frankly, amillenialism and postmillenialism weren't given a fair and balanced (I sound like FoxNews) defense.  So naturally, my view on them was distorted, and I hadn't really studied them.  

As I had a tendency to do (and I'm not saying every dispensational does this), I tried to keep up with current events and see how they might fit prophecy.  It began to become tiring to me.  I also began to feel as if I was trying to interpret prophecy from current events rather than letting the Bible interpret itself.  So...one day I decided that I'd try to read the main passages that dispensationals say support the pre-trib, premillenial rapture from a totally unbiased (as I could be) view.  In other words, I tried to read them as if I'd never heard of a rapture.  Well, I couldn't find the rapture in there if I took that presuppisition away.  So, I began to study other views and read "A Case For Amillenialism" by Kim Riddlebarger.  He explains it well, and in my estimation stays true to the biblical text.  You most certainly have to have a different set of presuppisitions in the amil view, for example covenantalism vs. dispensationalism.  Anyway, I feel now that the disp. view is kind of pop eschatology.  It's what is popular right now.  Given the popularity of Lahaye, Lindsey, etc etc.  Only time will tell what will happen to this view.  I also think that the rapture fits in well with the escapism mentality of Americans.  The mentality that nothing bad will happen to us.  

All that being said, I'm sure we'll still disagree on this issue.  I suppose Christians throughout history have and will continue to do so.  I don't think those in the disp. camp are evil, stupid, etc etc.  If they are in Christ, then we are brothers and sisters.  The same holds true for any view on prophecy.  I just wanted to relate my story to you and pray that you prayerfully consider each view.  Don't settle on one because right now it makes the most sense, or your pastor believes it.  Believe that view because you've studied each one, and prayed about each one, and that is why you are where you are.  Truth be told, some of us are wrong on this issue.  Since these views hold differing interpretations of prophecy, they can't all be right.  Most likely, none of us are completely right.  I told the youth minister at our church that it would be easy to believe one view and dismiss the others if I knew that in one view, the people lived godly and holy lives and in the other view people didn't.  But I know that in each view, there are people who have prayed about it, live godly lives and are great Christians.  It makes it hard doesn't it?  Thank God He uses us in spite of ourselves.  Grace and peace to you.

[2nd Timothy]

Ha,

There are several highly detailed studies on the forum about the RAPTURE. For beginners, "caught up" is what you need to look for. There are several reasonable views that all involve the RAPTURE. I would simply say begin at the beginning. People who don't swim shouldn't jump into deep water, nor should they talk about false teachers.

Love In Christ,
Tom

She is correct...there is no [secret]Rapture...as the Bible never teaches such a thing. It always teaches that Christ's 2nd coming will be visible and noisy.

Here's a little noise for ya.



 

Grace and Peace!

[fiveeyern]

Ha,

There are several highly detailed studies on the forum about the RAPTURE. For beginners, "caught up" is what you need to look for. There are several reasonable views that all involve the RAPTURE. I would simply say begin at the beginning. People who don't swim shouldn't jump into deep water, nor should they talk about false teachers.

Love In Christ,
Tom

She is correct...there is no [secret]Rapture...as the Bible never teaches such a thing. It always teaches that Christ's 2nd coming will be visible and noisy.

Here's a little noise for ya.



 

Grace and Peace!

What did you mean by "Here's a little noise for ya" ?  

Sorry that I never really introduced myself in the previous post.  I'm 21, in NC and am a junior in college.  Aside from studying theology, I am in the fish-keeping hobby and love to read in general.  Some of my fav. bands is Caedmon's Call and Derek Webb, the Temptations (I know, I'm young for them, but my parents made me listen growing up, and now I like them) among others.  My favorite book of the Bible if I had to narrow it down would be Romans.  Anyway, that's a little about me.

[Brother Love]

I'm beginning to think that fear, is the one single most contributing factor, behind the Rapture theory.

Christ warned people 4 times about the 2nd coming of Christ, (Matthew 24.....'Be Not Deceived')...and yet the Christian world acts as though they never read a single word he said.

No one can base their theory of the secret rapture on what the Bible teaches, because....it is not there !

There is no secret return of Jesus Christ......there is no 7 year Tribulation period, either.

Silver Surfer, just for you:
THE RAPTURE! Everything You Wanted To Know

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=256

<))><

[2nd Timothy]

What did you mean by "Here's a little noise for ya" ?  

Sorry that I never really introduced myself in the previous post.  I'm 21, in NC and am a junior in college.  Aside from studying theology, I am in the fish-keeping hobby and love to read in general.  Some of my fav. bands is Caedmon's Call and Derek Webb, the Temptations (I know, I'm young for them, but my parents made me listen growing up, and now I like them) among others.  My favorite book of the Bible if I had to narrow it down would be Romans.  Anyway, that's a little about me.

fiveeyern, after looking at my post again, I realise it was bit rude and turse, my apologies.  

Obviously I was in the wrong frame of mind when I posted yesterday     again my humble apologies.


Grace and Peace!

[archer]

I am new to this site because I am searching for answers.  In the last few days I have had several friends try and get me to believe the the rapture theory is not correct and that the church has been misled. Guys a new movement has arisen and I feel it is part of the falling away.
There is a pastor in Texas by the name of Steve Wohlberg. He is a 7th day adventist. He has written a book and it is making people doubt the rapture. Below is a commentary that was sent to me and it is why I am sharing it with you all. Please read it and help me refute this guy.

www.assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/Leftbehind.htm

Thanks to all, I am glad I have found an Oasis that I can rest with fellow believers.

Archer

[Bronzesnake]

I am new to this site because I am searching for answers.  In the last few days I have had several friends try and get me to believe the the rapture theory is not correct and that the church has been misled. Guys a new movement has arisen and I feel it is part of the falling away.
There is a pastor in Texas by the name of Steve Wohlberg. He is a 7th day adventist. He has written a book and it is making people doubt the rapture. Below is a commentary that was sent to me and it is why I am sharing it with you all. Please read it and help me refute this guy.

www.assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/Leftbehind.htm

Thanks to all, I am glad I have found an Oasis that I can rest with fellow believers.

Archer

 Welcome Archer.

 Listen my friend...There are all kinds of twisted and incorrect interpretations of doctrine and scripture. That's exactly why we must not EVER interpret scripture in a strictly "spiritual" manner. Check out the following...

 Rev 8 Verse 8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

This judgment is undoubtedly a giant meteor falling into the sea. Notice the phrase, as it were a mountain. This is a symbolic description. Always take every word of the Bible literally unless God tells you to take it figuratively. This passage is an example of the latter. Something gigantic, as or like a mountain, is cast into the sea and causes a third part of the sea to become blood.
 A similar occurrence was experienced in Moses' day: And the Lord spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. And the fish that [were] in the river died (Exodus 7:19-21).

 It's easy (relatively speaking) to get the bible right - we simply must follow God's direction. It is therefore relatively easy to root out false or incorrect doctrine, if we follow God's rules.

 The Rapture is biblical - it's not at all ambiguous and, as I have stated, if we read what God is telling us, we can easily understand the scriptures and in doing so - we get a clear cut vision of future events as are related to this topic in the Rapture, as well as the totality of Revelations as well as Daniel - which are the two major end times books found in the bible.

Hope this helps my friend.

Bronzesnake