Should Christians punish others for their "victimless" sins?

[nChrist]

...the laws you want to do away with.

I think you're trying to make me out to be someone I'm not in order to turn the topic away from the fact that Christians aren't to judge. I didn't say I wanted to do away with laws. I simply think it's not a Christian's place to be involved in condemning others.

...the vast majority of Christians will never rubber stamp evil as OK.

Again, you're trying to make it sound as though I agree with evil simply because I don't think it's a Christian's place to condemn others.

JitC,

You did that all by yourself without any help from anyone. "Punish" in our society is done by due process of man's law and man's government, not by Christians. In reflection of the deleted threads and the one who has already been banned, I know exactly where you were going and where you want to go. It won't be done here.

If you have no desire to get rid of man's laws, there is no purpose for this discussion. Civilization 101 concerns man's law, man's government, and man's attempt to have a decent place to live and raise a family. There is no irony at all that Civilization 101 is a subordinate topic to Bible 101 for Christians. For us, the two go together, and the Bible clearly states they go together. Those who do evil don't like either one of them.

If you ever raise a family, I doubt you will want any rules in your home. After all, that would be a Christian judging a child, assuming that you are a Christian. Others here will remember the deleted threads and will have two possible conclusions:

1 - You are a Christian, but you are either horribly confused or a babe.

2 - You are a troll masquerading in Christian clothes that don't fit.

I learn toward #2.

Tom

[JitC]

Rom 13:1  Let every soul be subject to higher authorities…

Ok. I agree with what your interpretation of this surely is.

…for there is no authority except from God, but the existing authorities have been ordained by God.

I agree here too. King Saul was evil, but still ordained by God.

Rom 13:2  So that the one resisting authority has opposed the ordinance of God, and the ones opposing will receive judgment to themselves.

Here’s one I don’t understand. There are countries where it’s illegal to become a Christian. I believe Egypt is one. China doesn’t allow people to have bibles, unless they are issued by the government. And the government produces so few that most people can’t have them. But as far as the laws that there is nothing wrong with obeying, yes, we should obey them. I don’t know of any law in America today that should be disobeyed.

Rom 13:3  For the rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the bad. And do you desire not to fear the authority? Do the good, and you will have praise from it;

OK.

Rom 13:4  for it is a servant of God to you for the good. But if you practice evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword in vain; for it is a servant of God, an avenger for wrath to the one practicing bad things.

Ok. The authorities, whether evil or not, are from God. Many, if not most, are not Christians, but they are still appointed by God, and we should obey them. Some evil people serve God, they just don’t know it, and they will be punished for it.

Rom 13:5  Because of this, it is necessary to be subject, not only on account of wrath, but also on account of conscience.

OK

Rom 13:6  For on this account you also pay taxes, for they are ministers of God, always giving attention to this very thing.

OK.

These passages show that we should obey those who condemn others. I agree. But they don’t say we should voluntarily join them and condemn others.

[2nd Timothy]

These passages show that we should obey those who condemn others. I agree. But they don’t say we should voluntarily join them and condemn others

And what if you're a christian who works for the government, say as a police officer?

What if you're a Christian who is a judge?

What if you're a Christian who is selected for jurry duty?

What if you're a Christian who is a jailer?

What if you're a Christian who is a parent?

What if you're a Christian who is a soldier?

and on and on and on and on and on.


I agree with BEP.  Please don't feed the trolls.  

Grace and Peace!

EDIT TO ADD, not as in condemn, but as far as punish and uphold laws.

[JitC]

"Punish" in our society is done by due process of man's law and man's government, not by Christians.

Professing Christians are involved in punishing. The scribes and Pharasees wanted to punish the woman in accordance with the law. They had every legal right to. But it was still wrong to. And neither did Jesus condemn her.

1 - You are a Christian...

2 - You are a...

Blackeyedpeas, you continue to say that you don't think I'm a Christian. I honestly think the same of you. Except that I have a biblical reason to think so:

Jesus: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations…teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” - (Matt 28:19-20)

Jesus: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” - (John 14:15)

Jesus: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." - (Matt 7:1)

Jesus: "But why do you call Me "Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" - (Luke 6:46)

John: “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” - (1 John 2:3-4)

[JitC]

And what if you're a christian who works...

If in your job you are required to disobey Jesus, then you have a choice: obey Jesus, or disobey Him.

You can't say something is right just because it's your job. If your job is to drop a bomb on a hospital full of children, are you actually going to claim it's ok because it's your job?

If you don't want to obey Jesus, then fine. But don't call yourself a Christian.

[nChrist]

JitC,

Well, it appears that your last post is void of logic and sanity. Please do us a favor and don't attempt to raise any children until you figure things out.

[2nd Timothy]

If you don't want to obey Jesus, then fine. But don't call yourself a Christian.

Agreed!

If in your job you are required to disobey Jesus, then you have a choice: obey Jesus, or disobey Him.

Agreed

But don't forget...

Rom 13:4  for it is a servant of God to you for the good. But if you practice evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword in vain; for it is a servant of God, an avenger for wrath to the one practicing bad things.

Rom 13:6  For on this account you also pay taxes, for they are ministers of God, always giving attention to this very thing.

So thus, administering penalties against various laws, by servants of God (Christian or non), is GOOD!  Avenging Gods anger on the wrong!  Practising BAD THINGS!   Not practising good things?     Christians don't practise bad things.   If my job tells me to do something wrong I won't.   If it tells me to sentence a murderer to jail, I will.   This is after all a just thing.  

I once sat on a jurry and sent a man to jail for molesting his own daughter.   While I had pitty on his soul, I did not pitty his actions.   It was my just right, to condemn his actions against Gods word and state laws.  Its Gods right to condemn his soul to hell should he not repent and ask forgivness.   I just sent him to jail, not hell.  BTW, I still call myself a Christian too.  

Grace and Peace!

[Shammu]

JitC,

Well, it appears that your last post is void of logic and sanity. Please do us a favor and don't attempt to raise any children until you figure things out.

LOL

[Kristi Ann]

Should Christians be involved in punishing others for their "victimless" sins?

I voted ~> NO...

This is Because we are NOT to Judge one another at all, Matthew 7:1.  

Jesus also said this to the men that were about to stone a women to death for her sins, Jesus said , "He who is without sin cast the first stone" .

None of the men could cast any stones as they seen in themselves that they also have sin in their lives. Anyone who says they are not a sinner anymore and don't sin is a liar!

God gave us a free Will, with that free will came lying.  There is none as Holy as God in Heaven at all, NO ONE!!!


Blessings,   \o/

MsGuidedAngel

[sincereheart]

Well, I have JUDGED that my youngest daughter's room is a MESS! And she has JUDGED that there will be punitive actions if it's not remedied today.  

[Allinall]

Should Christians be involved in punishing others for their "victimless" sins?

I voted ~> NO...

This is Because we are NOT to Judge one another at all, Matthew 7:1.  

Jesus also said this to the men that were about to stone a women to death for her sins, Jesus said , "He who is without sin cast the first stone" .

None of the men could cast any stones as they seen in themselves that they also have sin in their lives. Anyone who says they are not a sinner anymore and don't sin is a liar!

God gave us a free Will, with that free will came lying.  There is none as Holy as God in Heaven at all, NO ONE!!!


Blessings,   \o/

MsGuidedAngel

Why-for how-come you've never replied to my posts about how Jesus wasn't teaching us not to judge, but how to judge in that passage?  BTW, when He told them that those who were sinless to cast the first stone, it had nothing to do with judgment.  She had been caught in the act, and the punishment was given in the Law.  If anything, they were following what God had commanded them to do...except the purpose wasn't obedience to God, but to trip up His Son.  Jesus wouldn't have been tripped.  So He did what only God could do.  He showed mercy.  BTW, He judged the woman there.  He told her to go and "sin no more."  The judgment wasn't the problem.  The hearts were.  

[JitC]

...Jesus wasn't teaching us not to judge, but how to judge...

If I hadn't read the bible I might believe that. But Jesus said "do NOT judge." You say that He didn't teach "NOT to judge", but how to. Those two conflict, and I'm going to have to go with what Jesus said. Too many people twist the bible to mean what they want it to mean. And I'm not saying people do it consciously. It seems that it's just human nature to subconsciously think that way. We need to make a conscious effort to ignore our own wants, otherwise our own wants and wishes will creep in and corrupt our understanding of the bible.

So He did what only God could do.  He showed mercy.

That's not true. Jesus told us to have mercy too. (Luke 10:37) And Paul said: "Having then gifts...let us use them...he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness." (Rom 12:6-8) If only God could show mercy, Jesus wouldn't have told us to show mercy. If only God could show mercy, Paul wouldn't have told us it was a gift to us.

[2nd Timothy]

Well, I have JUDGED that my youngest daughter's room is a MESS! And she has JUDGED that there will be punitive actions if it's not remedied today.  

This is a perfect example, thanks SH.

If my child disobeys, should I as a christian father be involved in chastening, or punishing him?   If your answer is yes, then why?

Grace and Peace!

[JitC]

The obvious should be mentioned if it hasn't already. When Jesus spoke of judgement he was speaking of condemnation, not of discernment.

Anyway...

Well, I have JUDGED that my youngest daughter's room is a MESS! And she has JUDGED that there will be punitive actions if it's not remedied today.  

This is a perfect example...

If my child disobeys, should I as a christian father be involved in chastening, or punishing him?

Yes. As I responded to felix102 before:

We punish not out of anger, revenge, or personal gratification BUT out of LOVE.

...I think that is a much more acceptable aproach. More like preventing somebody from harming themselves, rather than punishing them for it. Hypothetically I might agree. But, at least with the prison conditions as they are today, preventing somebody from sinning by throwing them into prison where they will be far worse off just can't be called love.

If you punish your child out of love for him, then you wouldn't be condemning him, you'ld be helping him. But nobody can throw rocks at a woman until she's dead, and say it was out of love for her. Likewise, if you punish somebody, then it should be out of love, which makes it a loving act, and not condemnation.

[Allinall]

JiTC,

Beg to differ.  That's exactly what Jesus was teaching.  Let's look at the passage, and from your point of view, you answer me a couple of questions...

"Judge not, that you be not judged.  For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.  Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?  Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?  You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.  "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

1st question: what are the "speck" and the "log" symbols of?
2nd question: why would Jesus tell us to first take the log out of our eye BEFORE we take the speck out of our brother's eye?

We need to make a conscious effort to ignore our own wants, otherwise our own wants and wishes will creep in and corrupt our understanding of the bible.

Amen!  But what good is a biblical understanding do that applies only to self, deals only with self, and is never applied to the body as a whole?  

Quote:
So He did what only God could do.  He showed mercy.
 
 
That's not true. Jesus told us to have mercy too. (Luke 10:37) And Paul said: "Having then gifts...let us use them...he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness." (Rom 12:6-8) If only God could show mercy, Jesus wouldn't have told us to show mercy. If only God could show mercy, Paul wouldn't have told us it was a gift to us.

Beg to differ again.    Yes. We are to have mercy.  But in the context of the passage I was debating, the Law stated to stone an adulterer to death.  That was Law.  They were under that Law.  To do so would have been Lawful.  Yet what did Jesus, the One Who gave the Law, say?  He passed on the prescribed judgment.  He showed mercy.  He gave us an example to follow.  We can show mercy.  But I was speaking contextually of this passage in reference to Jesus' actions.    Make sense?