Spare the Rod?

[sincereheart]

But if I work with a bunch of guys that cuss the whole day long, am I to cuss out my family because of their influence?  Same principle.  Different application.

Nope. But if the same cussing guys went home and then tried NOT to cuss, that would be similiar!   Though I do like the way you compare cussin' to whoopin'!  

I'm teaching them to obey so as one day their lives can be saved.  My oldest, has already benefitted from this.

So you whoop 'em to teach them to accept salvation?   K, that's a reeeeeeal stretch!   Or do you mean that you discipline them for them to learn obedience? Cause I think we agree on the need for discipline. I just think there might be other WAYS of discipline.

As a father, when do I need to stop disciplining my child?

Pretty sly!   I believe the question should be: As a father when do you quit spanking them and go to other forms of discipline. Again, I believe we agree on the need for discipline; we just don't agree on the method!

Not hitting.  Spanking.  Large difference.
"spank: to strike especially on the buttocks with the open hand"

What does 'to strike' mean?  

Quote:
"I'm denying that "Spare the rod, spoil the child" has to mean that you have to hit them with it!
Why do we have to equate 'discipline' as 'hitting'?"
 
Because God has.  Why put the rod in the verse if He never intended for it to be used?  Why not use the time out chair instead?  Or the no supper rule?  Or the grounding?  Or the no TV rule?  Or the...see my point?  It's there.  If not for making a point, then why?  I believe the main point is that discipline is an uncomfortable thing.  No one likes to be disciplined.  As a child, I loved being grounded!  Why?  "Go to your room and stay there until I let you come out."  Whoohooo!!!!  All my stuff was there!  It was like being punished with toys!

Hmmmmm..... God intended for children to be hit as discipline? Or was the emphasis on the fact that they need to be disciplined?

I agree that discipline will be uncomfortable. I never suggested that sending a child to a room full of toys is punishment. Of course, God never mandated that they have all those toys either.  

When our children hit their pre-teens and started getting mouthy, my husband was noted for this line:
"I see your lips moving and all I hear is 'More chores!'" That would stop them everytime.... after an initial run through with having completed a set of chores! Of course, it WOULD have been quicker to (being PC here~ ) "strike" them.

Why not use the time out chair instead?  Or the no supper rule?  Or the grounding?  Or the no TV rule?  Or the...see my point?  It's there.  If not for making a point, then why?
Maybe to make a point about the need for discipline knowing that the Bible would be around even when TV wasn't?  

And I also don't follow the 'no supper' rule! I won't deprive a child of sustenance.  

And I don't follow the 'no TV' rule! We don't have TV out here!  

Grounding can be an option for some, depending on what the child is grounded from. If they stay on the phone longer than they were allowed, etc. then grounding them from using the phone could be an option.

Or if they haven't completed an assigned chore, task, etc. then they can't do ......

But most of those won't come into affect until the kids are a bit older.

But I do agree that not every method will work for every child. That includes 'striking' them. Might make the parents job a little more difficult in trying hard to make sure the punitive measures match the infraction.   Shouldn't it teach them NOT to repeat the infraction? Is striking them a 'fix it everytime' method?
*I wonder if I should call all mine together and just line 'em up and strike them to catch up on all those missed years?*  

When my oldest daughter was about 11, she wasn't real great about picking up in her room. Now I know I probably should have whooped her for it, but I wanted her to learn that she needed to do it for a variety of reasons that would carry with her through life. And not one of the life reasons had to do with being whooped if you didn't. So I charged her a fee for each item that I picked up. A quarter an item. She lost $1.25 in one day and made an extreme effort to keep things picked up. We also discussed the fact that she had choices in life and one of those was the choice to hire a maid if she simply couldn't be bothered to pick up after herself. But a maid wouldn't do it for free. So she might as well learn early that she would need to be prepared to pay for services rendered. Now, years later, she'll pick up her room without even being asked!  

Yup!  It's my personal persuasion.  They take after their mother.
ROFL!   And here I thought it was always the man's fault!

[Reba]

Prov 10:13

13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.KJV



This scripture implys talking has been tried to no avail so out comes the rod.

I think this  agrees a lot with what SH has posted.

[Allinall]

Prov 10:13

13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.KJV



This scripture implys talking has been tried to no avail so out comes the rod.

I think this  agrees a lot with what SH has posted.

We're arguing semantics Sis.  I'm not a spank first ask questions later kind of father.  Like I said, I want my children to learn obedience.  Sometimes that takes a firm hand.  ALL of the time it takes a loving one.    Reminds me of a chorus I was writing about fathering.  Allow me to digress:

A hand that will hold her,
       And sometimes might scold her,
   But always will mold her into
       The woman she's meant to be.
   God laid that gift on me,
       Lord help me always be true.
   Because who knows the wonders He'll do,
       In the touch of a daddy's hand.

Yes.  I am a poet.  *L*  Ok.  Stop throwing the tomatoes...

[Allinall]

But if I work with a bunch of guys that cuss the whole day long, am I to cuss out my family because of their influence?  Same principle.  Different application.

Nope. But if the same cussing guys went home and then tried NOT to cuss, that would be similiar!   Though I do like the way you compare cussin' to whoopin'!  

Yup.  You're definitely missin' my point...

I'm teaching them to obey so as one day their lives can be saved.  My oldest, has already benefitted from this.

So you whoop 'em to teach them to accept salvation?   K, that's a reeeeeeal stretch!   Or do you mean that you discipline them for them to learn obedience? Cause I think we agree on the need for discipline. I just think there might be other WAYS of discipline.

In so many words, yes.  But the point I was making was that at the heart of salvation is being obedient to the call of the Holy Spirit to repentance and acceptance of Christ as Savior.  If I can ever teach my child anything in life, it's to obey.  They come to Him through obedience, and are conformed into His image through obedience.  It's the most important lesson (to me) that I'll ever be able to teach them.  And if a spanking helps show them the level of that importance, then I will lovingly use spankings.  

As a father, when do I need to stop disciplining my child?

Pretty sly!   I believe the question should be: As a father when do you quit spanking them and go to other forms of discipline. Again, I believe we agree on the need for discipline; we just don't agree on the method!

Boy!  You're all over missing my points aren'tcha?    I know, you're making your own.  Again, however, my point wasn't about the whooping.  It was about the responsibility.  

Not hitting.  Spanking.  Large difference.
"spank: to strike especially on the buttocks with the open hand"

What does 'to strike' mean?

No comment needed...

Quote:
"I'm denying that "Spare the rod, spoil the child" has to mean that you have to hit them with it!
Why do we have to equate 'discipline' as 'hitting'?"

Because God has.  Why put the rod in the verse if He never intended for it to be used?  Why not use the time out chair instead?  Or the no supper rule?  Or the grounding?  Or the no TV rule?  Or the...see my point?  It's there.  If not for making a point, then why?  I believe the main point is that discipline is an uncomfortable thing.  No one likes to be disciplined.  As a child, I loved being grounded!  Why?  "Go to your room and stay there until I let you come out."  Whoohooo!!!!  All my stuff was there!  It was like being punished with toys!

Hmmmmm..... God intended for children to be hit as discipline? Or was the emphasis on the fact that they need to be disciplined?

The emphasis is discipline.  The importance of and the extreme of that discipline is the rod.  God intends for children to obey.  And my spankings hurt far less than His.  

I agree that discipline will be uncomfortable. I never suggested that sending a child to a room full of toys is punishment. Of course, God never mandated that they have all those toys either.

Yes He did.  Check Proverbs 32:15.  

When our children hit their pre-teens and started getting mouthy, my husband was noted for this line:
"I see your lips moving and all I hear is 'More chores!'" That would stop them everytime.... after an initial run through with having completed a set of chores! Of course, it WOULD have been quicker to (being PC here~ ) "strike" them.

You have uncommon children!    Actually, you have well disciplined children, however you chose to do it, it worked.  I have the blessing of similiar circumstance with my oldest.  A word most always works.  My youngest requires reinforced words, coupled with loss of privilege...and a whole lot of prayer!

Why not use the time out chair instead?  Or the no supper rule?  Or the grounding?  Or the no TV rule?  Or the...see my point?  It's there.  If not for making a point, then why?
Maybe to make a point about the need for discipline knowing that the Bible would be around even when TV wasn't?  

And I also don't follow the 'no supper' rule! I won't deprive a child of sustenance.  

Ahem.  Illustration?  Ever heard of em?    My children have rarely been disciplined by the no "TV" rule.  In our house, it's more like, no videos.  Regardless, my oldest reads more than she watches, and my youngest is usually to busy getting into things she's not supposed to, to ever watch TV.  

I don't use the no supper rule much anymore.  Only have once with each child, but seeing as how neither of them eat much anyway, it's a useless discipline.  My youngest won't eat.  Can't figure that one out.  She only eats a couple of bites of every meal.  She's healthy.  Just awfully little.  Somewhat worriesome to me.  The oldest eats well.  She's just picky about what she eats.  Gets that from her mother.  

But I do agree that not every method will work for every child. That includes 'striking' them.  Might make the parents job a little more difficult in trying hard to make sure the punitive measures match the infraction.   Shouldn't it teach them NOT to repeat the infraction? Is striking them a 'fix it everytime' method?
*I wonder if I should call all mine together and just line 'em up and strike them to catch up on all those missed years?*

Yup.  Have to discipline the child according to the child.  And yes, it is to teach them not to repeat.  I think the best thing a parent can do, and this is a shame to me, is to model biblical obedience in the home.  We take too much time doing the "do as I say and not as I do" mentallity.  Never said this, but I'm sure I've acted this way.

And yes, you should whoop 'em for all the missed years.  I plan on whooping my daily for just such a reason.  Yup.  I jest.

When my oldest daughter was about 11, she wasn't real great about picking up in her room. Now I know I probably should have whooped her for it, but I wanted her to learn that she needed to do it for a variety of reasons that would carry with her through life. And not one of the life reasons had to do with being whooped if you didn't.  So I charged her a fee for each item that I picked up. A quarter an item. She lost $1.25 in one day and made an extreme effort to keep things picked up. We also discussed the fact that she had choices in life and one of those was the choice to hire a maid if she simply couldn't be bothered to pick up after herself. But a maid wouldn't do it for free. So she might as well learn early that she would need to be prepared to pay for services rendered. Now, years later, she'll pick up her room without even being asked!  

Wouldn't work with my kids.  They already freely give their money away.  You know, offerings, family needs, that sorta thing...

Yup!  It's my personal persuasion.  They take after their mother.
ROFL!   And here I thought it was always the man's fault!

Typical woman's thinking...

[sincereheart]

But the point I was making was that at the heart of salvation is being obedient to the call of the Holy Spirit to repentance and acceptance of Christ as Savior.  If I can ever teach my child anything in life, it's to obey.  They come to Him through obedience, and are conformed into His image through obedience.  It's the most important lesson (to me) that I'll ever be able to teach them.

Now see?? I do agree with you!  

And if a spanking helps show them the level of that importance, then I will lovingly use spankings.

I can even agree with this rewritten version:
And if *discipline* helps show them the level of that importance, then I will lovingly use *discipline*.  


And yes, you should whoop 'em for all the missed years.  I plan on whooping my daily for just such a reason.  Yup.  I jest.

ROFL! I'll be sure and do that and let them know that they have you to thank for it!   Though I do fear for your safety!


Let me ask you something .....
Christians that 'strike' their children quote Proverbs. Do you find that Proverbs is to be always taken literally?  

Proverbs 5:3 For the lips of an adulteress drip honey,...

Honey actually drips from her mouth?


Proverbs 30:17 "The eye that mocks a father,
that scorns obedience to a mother,
will be pecked out by the ravens of the valley,
will be eaten by the vultures.

I was quite a handful as a youngster and thankfully I wasn't eaten by vultures!


Proverbs 6:10 A little sleep, a little slumber,
a little folding of the hands to rest-
11 and poverty will come on you like a bandit
and scarcity like an armed man.

Is this to teach us the wisdom of not being lazy? Or does it mean that we can't even get a 'little' rest?


Proverbs 7:27 Her house is a highway to the grave,
leading down to the chambers of death.

Is that the actual address of an adultress?


I have no doubt that you are a wonderful Godly father!   And I believe that we agree on the importance of discipline!


 

[Allinall]

ROFL! I'll be sure and do that and let them know that they have you to thank for it!   Though I do fear for your safety!

Naaaah.  I can run faster.  No, wait.  I'm old.  I can't run.  EEEEK!!!  

Let me ask you something .....
Christians that 'strike' their children quote Proverbs. Do you find that Proverbs is to be always taken literally?  

Proverbs 5:3 For the lips of an adulteress drip honey,...

Honey actually drips from her mouth?

Every last bit.  Yes, honey does actually drip from her mouth.  It's a sign of her slovenliness.  hehee

Proverbs 30:17 "The eye that mocks a father,
that scorns obedience to a mother,
will be pecked out by the ravens of the valley,
will be eaten by the vultures.

True.  Apparently you just weren't as mocking and scorning as you thought.  

Proverbs 6:10 A little sleep, a little slumber,
a little folding of the hands to rest-
11 and poverty will come on you like a bandit
and scarcity like an armed man.

Is this to teach us the wisdom of not being lazy? Or does it mean that we can't even get a 'little' rest?

No rest.  Ever.  It's evil.

Proverbs 7:27 Her house is a highway to the grave,
leading down to the chambers of death.

Is that the actual address of an adultress?

Yes.

Ok, so I'm being humorous!  There are literal passages, and passages with symbolic literality.  Take these passages for instance.  An adulterous woman is sweet to the man giving in to his own lusts.  And yes, the end of that road, if taken to its end is destruction and death.  "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death."  

A scorner and a mocker is a lifestyle, not a simple act.  Proverbs details this as well.  To be a scorner is the end of the line.  Destruction awaits that individual.  But there's alot of road prior to reaching the end.  

So if we're to apply a nonliteral interpretation to the rod passage, then we weaken it greatly.  Nevertheless, if the nonliteral approach is the right one, then the rod discipline speaks of what?  God's sense of importance?  If so, then why not?    Tell me, is this horse dead yet?  

I have no doubt that you are a wonderful Godly father!   And I believe that we agree on the importance of discipline!

Thank you, and likewise on your Godly mothering.  Yup, we do agree.  

[sincereheart]

ROFL! I can not even begin to respond in any seriousness!  

This is the one that did me in:
If so, then why not?

But I must respond to this:
Tell me, is this horse dead yet?

Your choice~





And now I have exceeded my maturity level for the day!  

[Allinall]

ROFL! I can not even begin to respond in any seriousness!  

This is the one that did me in:
If so, then why not?

But I must respond to this:
Tell me, is this horse dead yet?

Your choice~





And now I have exceeded my maturity level for the day!  

SIS!!![/b]  I LOVE the dude beatin' the dead horse!  Did you get that from animation factory?  And don't worry about the maturity level thing.  At least you have one!  

[grommie]

My favorite saying in this thread.

Posted by: Allinall  Posted on: August 16, 2004, 01:09:41 PM  
"
Naaaah.  I can run faster.  No, wait.  I'm old.  I can't run.  EEEEK!!!" END QUOTE   ROFLOL

i would have done that quote thingy but man i have to take a class or something.  

(please dont teach me today.)

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread topic

[Allinall]

My favorite saying in this thread.

Posted by: Allinall  Posted on: August 16, 2004, 01:09:41 PM  
"
Naaaah.  I can run faster.  No, wait.  I'm old.  I can't run.  EEEEK!!!" END QUOTE   ROFLOL

i would have done that quote thingy but man i have to take a class or something.  

(please dont teach me today.)

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread topic

  hehehee

[Tim Vaughan]

For punishment I kick over a bunch of beehives and make my kids stand there.

[Tim Vaughan]

And yes, that was a joke.

[Symphony]

Oooooo, I was just reading about honeybees.  They're great.  

Are you a beekeeper, Tim?


Spare the rod?  Of course not!

You can never guide and engineer your children enough!

If that implies a rod, then there you go.

Anything less would be insincere, for the sake of your chillun.

We must be watchful, be diligent, the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour!

[Tim Vaughan]

Yes, I keep bees. Did you know that the Bible say that honey brings joy to the soul and health to the bone?

Here are some of my bees

http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/bees

And my kids help me with the hobby, and have fun goofing off with them.

[Symphony]

That's wonderful.  Honey IS delish, and I take it for granted.


It looks like you have quite a pile of hive boxes(apiaries?) there, TV.  It looks like more than a hobby.

Have you been doing it long?

That is so neat;  I just happened to read an encyclopedia article, and was learning apparently just how sophisticated a bee colony is structured - drones do nothing but mate the queen; worker bees surround the queen, and caress her to aid in her egg-laying(but then they kill her when she grows old ); queens kill each other for dominance; the worker bees work themselves constantly - to death; it takes 5000 miles of bee travel to develop one pound of honey...

Then I guess you harvest and/or sell the honey?

Neat hobby.  Do you wear all the gear when working with them, or do you go without?