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| | |-+  Have the spiritual gifts ceased or they around today?
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Author Topic: Have the spiritual gifts ceased or they around today?  (Read 12054 times)
carlos123
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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2004, 04:46:43 PM »

Well put Evangelist.  I perceive that you have a way with words in terms of describing some things that I have tried to describe more clearly than I Smiley.  

I especially like the reference to 1 John 3:2.  That's an excellent verse that seems to be exactly in line with what Paul is talking about. Using even some similar terminology.  

As to the perfect being Jesus I am not sure about that myself.  Certainly Jesus is indeed the only perfect thing (if I can say thing) about all this.  As you rightly point out.  

Yet I wonder if the perfect in 1 Cor 13 refers not to Jesus per se but rather to that state of being that we will attain to on his return or something like that.  Not directly referring to Jesus but rather to something related.  

The idea that the perfect refers to the completed canon of Scripture in my thinking is entirely and completely unsupported in the context unless someone reading this can show us different of course Smiley.  Indeed I see such a belief as only supportable through the bringing into the discussion various extra biblical ideas and opinions about dispensations, supposed gender nuances of Greek words, and the like.  Certainly not from a plain reading of the Scriptures.  

Carlos

PS.  As for my long list of gifts...well...hmm...I did overdo it I guess in terms of listing them all Smiley.  It's just that some reading this thread might not have looked up the verses and I didn't want them to miss my point.  That some of the gifts are obviously still around (i.e faith, knowledge, etc.) in the midst of others that they might view as not being.  
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Evangelist
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« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2004, 05:48:29 PM »

Quote
Yet I wonder if the perfect in 1 Cor 13 refers not to Jesus per se but rather to that state of being that we will attain to on his return or something like that.  Not directly referring to Jesus but rather to something related. 

Carlos:
To a certain degree, there is agreement...however (ahem).

The word used for "to come" is erchomai, and defined well as:
1) to come
    a) of persons
1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons
    arriving and of those returning
2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

As you can see, it is very specific in reference to a person or persons, rather than as an event, or a grouping, or a command to complete an action.

In other locations, the word come is most often sunerchomai. While similar, it carries a connotation of assemblage, which would fit more closely with your postulate.

Agreed that when Jesus comes again, our "state of being" as described by Paul in 1 Cor 15, and again in Thessalonians, will match His state....but He has to come first.

 I think I'll shut up for awhile and see if the fish are biting.  Grin
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carlos123
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« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2004, 05:55:12 PM »

To be sure thar don't seem to be too many fish in this ther hole Smiley.  

Carlos
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felix102
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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2004, 12:34:49 AM »

Well put evangelist and carlos.

As a side note, there were some problems with the debate thread. I think this would be a great model for a constructive debate.
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Brother Love
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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2004, 05:06:48 AM »

THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT – THEN AND NOW

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1377

Mark Sixteen
AND THE MODERN TWISTERS


http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1377

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Brother Love Smiley

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« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2004, 10:36:16 AM »

Brother Love:

If you have anything of value to add that comes from you, and the use of scripture, we would definitely welcome it.

If not, why take up the forums valuable bandwidth by posting nothing?
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carlos123
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« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2004, 11:11:39 AM »

Quote
If you have anything of value to add that comes from you, and the use of scripture, we would definitely welcome it.

I totally agree Evangelist. Pointing us to long studies is not going to help us move toward agreement.  

Entering into the discussion, however much one may disagree, and personally bringing one's views into it supported by Scripture will.  Assuming one's come into the discussion with an attitude of humility of course.  

If you are willing Brother Love can you not comment on the verses we have been looking at in 1 Cor 13 and the meaning of the perfect as you see it?  Without bringing in material that ranges far and wide in covering other aspects of this issue?  

Thanks.  

Carlos
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Brother Love
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« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2004, 02:40:56 PM »

NOTHING Grin
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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2004, 03:28:35 PM »

Forgive me Brother Love but your response is .... well ... ahem ... rather unusual Smiley.  

A capitalized word "NOTHING" with a grimace face next to it?

Can you not be more specific?  Have my comments along with those of others on this thread being so irrefutable that all you can say is "NOTHING"?  I truly am willing to hear you out if you care to share but "NOTHING" doesn't leave me with much to work with.  It certainly does not help to bring the light of God's truth into the thread, assuming that your view - whatever that is - reflects what God thinks.  

Carlos
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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2004, 03:56:39 PM »


From the "Charismatic Movement-Then and Now" thread referenced by BL

Quote
Three of the temporary gifts were to cease---1. Corinthians 13:8. The total absence of tongues, healings and other signs gifts in Paul’s later, or Prison Epistles shows that they had all passed off the scene. Paul wrote in 1. Corinthians 13:9-10, “ For we know in part, and we prophecy in part. But when that which is perfect is comes then that which is in part shall be done away.” That expression “that which is perfect” does not refer to when we get to heaven, as so many think. It means that when Paul’s full revelations are all given, when the New Testament is finished, then there would be no more use of the temporary gifts. The New Testament WAS finished, and the temporary gifts DID cease.

Please note the self-contradiction contained herein. First, that in Paul's later epistles, all of the sign gifts had disappeared. Then please note that the "perfect" is being designated as when Paul's full revelations are given, when the New Testament is finished, that being when the sign gifts cease.

The New Testament was not finished until 95 AD, about 30 years after Paul died, and yet by the time Paul was in prison, the gifts had "ceased".  Which is it, please? Also, the NT as a collection was not settled as such, and canonized until 325AD, and is still in some measure contentious as to what is or is not a part of the NT.

Secondly, as noted in prior posts, the belief that it is the New Testament writings in themselves which are the "perfect" does not fit with either the word that Paul chose to use descriptively, nor does it fit with what centuries worth of noted and notable scholars cross-reference the word to.

Quote
Sign gifts had two purposes: (1) to authenticate the inspired revelations of the Apostles; (2) to prove to unbelieving Jews that “that same Jesus whom ye have crucified” is the true Messiah.

1Cr 12:7   But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Why was not the BIBLICAL reason for the gifts given? (rhetorical question). Because the reasons given don't fit with a preconceived notion.

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carlos123
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« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2004, 05:32:55 PM »

What I find truly amazing when hearing about the perfect being the Bible is the way those who believe this are not able to point out support for their position straight from the Bible.  

They make statements like in the snippet below which you quoted Evangelist ....

Quote
That expression “that which is perfect” does not refer to when we get to heaven, as so many think. It means that when Paul’s full revelations are all given, when the New Testament is finished, then there would be no more use of the temporary gifts.

And expect everyone to just believe what they have said without any kind of Scriptural support for it.  They often say that history supports the belief that the canon resulted in the loss of the gifts for their argument cannot be made from the Scriptures alone.  But using history is a very shakey and unreliable way to determine what God means in the Word.  For history is the history of man whose heart is prone to evil such that it often does not point to God's view of things.  

First we determine what God says in His Word.  In the clear and plain meaning of the words there.  Then we bring God's understanding to history.  Not the other way around.  

If anyone reading this thinks different please feel free to speak up.  Your head won't be bitten off Smiley.  Perhaps there is something in the view of the Bible being the perfect that I am not seeing or understanding.

Carlos
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felix102
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« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2004, 12:42:09 AM »

Amen. Totally agree.

I also think this a valid point for the argument.

In Revelations 11:3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.", state that there will be 2 prophets in the future. Perhaps it's logical to reason that if prophesy is still needed in the future, then the perfect has not yet come.
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carlos123
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« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2004, 02:11:37 AM »

That is very interesting about the 2 prophets Felix.  I never realized that before (probably because I rarely read Revelations).  If the perfect was the canon of Scripture then one would certainly have a hard time explaining why these two persons would not have been just quoting Scripture instead of prophesying.  

Of course to prophesy is not just to tell the future.  It can also involve speaking to men for edification, exhortation, and encouragement which can be done by quoting Scripture and explaining it.  

But the fact that the Greek word translated "prophesy" in Rev 11:3 (which has to do with end time events) is the same exact word as used in 1 Cor 14:3 when it says "But he that prophesieth..." is a powerful argument in support of the perfect not having yet come.  

Glad you pointed that out Felix!  

Carlos
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Brother Love
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« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2004, 04:32:19 AM »

We have the "COMPLETE"Word of God. Benny Hinn is out of a job Smiley

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« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2004, 07:18:48 AM »

Quote
We have the "COMPLETE"Word of God.
I completely agree. Have I said otherwise?


Quote
Benny Hinn is out of a job
Excuse me? I don't recall this thread being about an apostate modern day version of Balaam. But if you want to get technical about it, because "my people love to have it so", Benny and his ilk will continue in their "jobs" for some time.....it's just the retirement benefits that will be lacking!! Grin
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