DISCUSSION FORUMS
MAIN MENU
Home
Help
Advanced Search
Recent Posts
Site Statistics
Who's Online
Forum Rules
Bible Resources
• Bible Study Aids
• Bible Devotionals
• Audio Sermons
Community
• ChristiansUnite Blogs
• Christian Forums
• Facebook Apps
Web Search
• Christian Family Sites
• Top Christian Sites
• Christian RSS Feeds
Family Life
• Christian Finance
• ChristiansUnite KIDS
Shop
• Christian Magazines
• Christian Book Store
Read
• Christian News
• Christian Columns
• Christian Song Lyrics
• Christian Mailing Lists
Connect
• Christian Singles
• Christian Classifieds
Graphics
• Free Christian Clipart
• Christian Wallpaper
Fun Stuff
• Clean Christian Jokes
• Bible Trivia Quiz
• Online Video Games
• Bible Crosswords
Webmasters
• Christian Guestbooks
• Banner Exchange
• Dynamic Content

Subscribe to our Free Newsletter.
Enter your email address:

ChristiansUnite
Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
February 05, 2023, 12:21:17 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
286355 Posts in 27567 Topics by 3790 Members
Latest Member: Goodwin
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  ChristiansUnite Forums
|-+  Theology
| |-+  General Theology (Moderator: admin)
| | |-+  Have the spiritual gifts ceased or they around today?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Have the spiritual gifts ceased or they around today?  (Read 12055 times)
carlos123
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2004, 11:30:22 AM »

It's great to see some input on the thread ya all Smiley.  

Quote
The reason there is so much dissention in the Church over gifts is because people are not practicing the greatest thing of all: Love!!

Well put Felix!  Thank you.  

Quote
Small disagreement....I don't think that Paul is emphasizing that the manifestations occuring are all from God, nearly as much as he is stating the fact that that which IS from God, is given by God, and is given differently. This is an extremely important point.

I think you have a point Evangelist now that I have had a chance to think about it some more.  I can see where the emphasis is not so much that ALL  manifestations they may have been experiencing were of God but rather that those which were ascribed to God by the Corinthians were just that.  Of God.  Given as He willed to members of His Body for the common good.

Not something the Corinthians could take pride in as coming from themselves in any way.  

Carlos
Logged
carlos123
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2004, 12:33:28 PM »

I guess I will continue then.  We are now about to get to some verses that may stir up some controversy so I am going to be as careful as I can, given the context we have built up, to express what I believe Paul is saying just right.  So that disagreement and controversy won't lead us, as is so often the case, into bickering and arguing.  Please join me in praying that God will draw us toward agreement in a spirit of humility through the next sections.

As we enter the next sections please keep in mind that those of us who are Christians are brothers and sisters.  Worshipping the same God who is our common Father.  That none of us are superior to any other and that we are all unworthy before God and saved only by His grace.  

I have taken some liberty, as previously, to arrange the verses so as to make the logical progression found in them clearer.  Unfortunately my posts along with that of others will get a bit longer since there will be more to discuss in the following sections.  Hopefully one's will have the patience to read them at length.  

Quote
1 Corinthians 12:28-31
And God has appointed in the church,

first apostles,
second prophets,
third teachers,
then miracles,
then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

All are not apostles, are they?
All are not prophets, are they?
All are not teachers, are they?
All are not workers of miracles, are they?
All do not have gifts of healings, do they?
All do not speak with tongues, do they?
All do not interpret, do they?

But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

God has appointed.  Now there's a mouthful that we could chew on for a while.  It's almost as if Paul is being overly repetitious.  He keeps pointing to God.

In the next few verses Paul makes it clear that there is a varying pecking order, if you will, among the gifts.  First .... second .... and so forth.

But what does that mean?  We have seen that all the gifts came from God and that no Corinthian could boast of having a gift as though they had not
received it.  So why this distinction of first...second...and so forth?  

I personally believe that Paul's distinction refers to the varying degree to which one gift has greater or lessor influence on the Body than another gift.  Not to whether one gift is inheritantly superior to any other.  Only different in influence for the common good.  For example the gift of apostle was influential in starting churches.  Whereas the gift of administration might have been more influential at the local level within a local body of believers.  There are exceptions of course since even an apostle might have needed to have some help from those gifted in administration or to have that gift themselves but I think my point is still valid.  

Next Paul makes a point that not all have every gift as Evangelist mentioned before.  A point made by asking questions whose obvious answer is no.  All do not ....?  No.  It's interesting to note how many times Paul uses the word "all" and how many times he asks the same question with a mention of a different gift.  It's as if Paul was trying to hit every bit of pride and arrogance on the part of any Corinthians reading this over the exercise of THEIR particular gift.  

Finally Paul concludes with the statement in the last verse "But earnestly desire the greater gifts...".  In other words he has struck down their pride but now he is bringing them back to a balanced view of the gifts and encouraging them to seek the greater gifts for the greatest common good of the Church.  Not as a way to inflate themselves.  

Note the contrast between "God has appointed" and "earnestly desire the greater gifts".  The contrast between predestination where God wills what He wills to happen such that no one can oppose His will and our free will where we are free to choose.  Let's not get into a predestination/free will debate.  I just wanted to suggest that apparently we do have some degree of influence in determining whether God will appoint us to have some gift or not.  Namely through our desires.  If we want a greater gift (as a Body and as individuals within that Body) it is very possible that God will bless us with such.

Lastly Paul says "And I show you a still more excellent way."  Now that he has tied off all of chapter 12 he now introduces what he will be talking about in chapter 13.  

Which brings us full circle back to my original questions.  What is the way that Paul is contrasting against?  To say there is a more excellent way implies that there is a another way that is not so excellent.  Without getting into the details of the more excellent way just yet, what is that previous way that is implied?  A way to what?  

Personally I think it has to do with the way in which God manifests his Presence within His Body.  The previous way, the less excellent way, has to do with God manifesting His Presence through spiritual gifts.  But there is a better, more excellent way in which God's Presence in the Body can be seen and it is that better way that Paul is about to explain.  In short the way of love.  

Would anyone care to add anything at this point?  

Carlos
Logged
felix102
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 476


Jesus Christ is Lord!


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2004, 01:53:47 AM »

I really like how this is developing! I hope I am flowing with the progression here.


In the paragraph:
Quote
1 Corinthians 12:28-31
And God has appointed in the church,

first apostles,
second prophets,
third teachers,
then miracles,
then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

All are not apostles, are they?
All are not prophets, are they?
All are not teachers, are they?
All are not workers of miracles, are they?
All do not have gifts of healings, do they?
All do not speak with tongues, do they?
All do not interpret, do they?

But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

It is even more important to note the verse right before that which is:

Quote
1 Cor 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

This is extremely important to note. We are a body of Christ. To make an analogy, look at your body. Obviously, the heart and brain are the essential parts of your body. Now your fingers and eyes aren't. You can still survive without your fingers and eyes. BUT look at your hands right now. Would you be happy if you had both of your thumbs cut off? Note what you are seeing. Suppose you couldn't see at all! You would still survive but the quality of your life would be as good as it should be.

Likewise, God appointed things that came first in the church in much the same way that our heart in our body comes first to our survivial. We would not be alive if our hearts were not working. A church would not be alive if there were not apostles to start them.

 

« Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 02:04:59 AM by felix102 » Logged
carlos123
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2004, 03:25:45 AM »

Quote
I really like how this is developing! I hope I am flowing with the progression here.

You certainly are Felix!  I appreciate your input very much.  We most certainly are a body.  We need to be reminded of that constantly.  

You know it's kind of funny as an aside but have you all ever had your eyes more opened to something of the Lord in the sharing of it with others?  Well mine were after I wrote my last post.  It dawned on me how profound the most excellent way is that Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 13.  As demonstrating the living reality of God in the midst of us, His Body.  

We all want to teach as those who are gifted to teach.  We all want to to be recognized as gifted and very spiritual.  At least we do in our flesh.  But how many of us desire to be recognized for our Christ-like love?  How many of us really walk with Christ-like love in our everyday lives?  Before our wives and children?  I don't know about you all but I am so lacking in Christ-like love for those around me that I am the worst example of Christ that I know.  I am not saying that to sound spiritual.  That's the honest to God's truth!  And I say that to my shame.  

If one were to look at my life one would not readily see Christ.  

And that which is so lacking in my life is that very thing that is so lacking in the Church.  Christ-like love.  God is love.  He is not loving.  He IS love.  He is the very essence of what love is.  He cannot help but be loving.  His love is pure and unblemished by selfishness.  His love is just and true.  Pure and noble.  Kind and gentle and firm and perfect.  

And you know something?  Love...genuine love...the kind that hurts, the kind that will believe the best of others, the kind that embodies the essence of who God is, IS the surest sign of God's living presence among His people.  If we do not have that we do not have God!  Oh I don't mean not have Him as in not have relationship with Him.  I mean we do not have God visibly present in our midst.  That others might see Him through us.  

I'll tell you something.  I would travel to the far flung corners of the Earth to be with Christians who have such love if I could and drop everything to be around such love.  For to be around such love would be to experience God within His Body in a way that I cannot experience Him alone.  I have felt the touch of our loving Father within my own heart at times and it has been as a drink of cold water to a thirsty soul.  But I can recount on one hand the numbers of times in my life that I have truly felt loved within His Church.  I mean really loved just as God loves me.  

I see no such love around me now in my everyday life.  Not among the Christians.  Not in myself.  Nowhere.  Sometimes I wonder if God is really there.  I would wonder no more I think if His love were to shine through the Church to illuminate the darkness of this world.  But it doesn't and His love remains hidden.  Out of sight.  Only known by us individually within our hearts but not often displayed to others looking in.  

What a sad state of affairs we are in.  The God Almighty who loved us so much that He stooped down to send His only Son to die for our sins hidden from sight.  Obscured from view by those of us who claim to be His own.  We preach and preach and preach and teach and teach and teach on Him who died for us yet we do not love.  

My eyes wet with tears as I write this.  We are so bankrupt of love.  So devoid of that which best exhibits the living presence of God among us.  It is no wonder the world does not see Him in us.  For we do not love each other as He loves us.  

If anyone feels offended by anything I have said please don't take it personally.  It is not directed at anyone in particular.  I am just trying to express how greatly we, starting with myself first, need to hear about the most excellent way that Paul will be describing as we continue with this discussion.  

Carlos
« Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 03:33:16 AM by carlos123 » Logged
Evangelist
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 603


View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2004, 07:54:13 AM »

Carlos, Felix....thanks!

Before we go on, I think it might be a good idea to tarry for just a moment on that passage you just posted, Carlos.

While chapters 12, 13, 14 are primarily speaking (in most minds) about the charismata (spirituals), we suddenly have here an insertion of "doma", which is a different kind of gift entirely. Contrast 12:28 with the passage in Ephesians, and again in Romans concerning gifting.

The doma are the specific gifts that Jesus has given to the church, as opposed to the charismata which is bestowed on all believers by the Holy Spirit.

As noted in Ephesians, the doma are "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers".

Please note that pastors and teachers is a single classification, rather than two separate ones.

The doma are related (primarily) to administrative (for the body in general) functions that establish order and doctrine within the body, as opposed to the charismata, which are for edification and exhortation of the body (primarily).

Of further interest is that in examining all of scripture, we tend to see the "doma" gifts flowing in a large number of charismata, but we do not see those with charismata flowing in a large number (or all) of the doma.

Example: Peter (a doma) exhibits healing, miracles, prophecy, tongues, knowledge, wisdom (charismata) pretty consistently throughout his ministry. On the other hand, we don't see (or read) of Huh? (daughters of Phillip) who exhibit prophecy (charismata) doing much else.

Can we understand or learn more at this point if we were to examine and clarify the doma just a bit? One of today's big things is the "absolute necessity" for the "five-fold" ministry to be re-instituted. Some even declare that it is necessary to be exhibited in every individual church for that church to be "flowing with God", or a "true new testament church".

This might seem like a rabbit trail, but............
Logged

BroHank
John 8:12 Ministries  www.john812.com
The Beymers  www.thebeymers.org
carlos123
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2004, 12:12:10 PM »

There are indeed different words in the Greek that are used to refer to gifts and spiritual gifts Evangelist.  Thanks for pointing that out.  And there is something to be said for studying what was meant by those words and how the variences of meaning might apply in helping us understand the gifts/spiritual gifts and how they are meant by God to operate within His Body.  

I think though that it might be best to continue on our present course to understanding the "perfect" in the context of 1 Cor 12, 13, and 14 as you previously suggested Evangelist.  Bypassing the issue of which category of gift/spiritual gift some might fall into. Which would involve going off to discuss verses in Ephesians and elsewhere in the Bible.  

I see a potential for getting way of course if we start discussing what categories of gifts some might fall into.  Finding ourselves not only having to contend with a difference of opinion on whether the gifts are around for today or not but also on differences of opinion on which gifts fit into what category, whether there are categories, and what that implies for us today.  A real mish mash of disagreements all tossed together into this thread which would not help us move toward agreement one step at a time.  

Many Christians reading this thread have a disagreement on the more general issue of whether some of the gifts Paul mentioned in 1 Cor 12 are still around for today or not.  If one is inclined to believe that some are not then it matters little what category of gift they might fall under and what the implications of that are for us today.  For they do not believe in such gifts being relevant for today at all.  There is no today about it for them.  

Does that make sense Evangelist?  What do you think?  Is it okay by you if we bypass this issue and keep heading toward the "perfect"? I just want to avoid bringing in too many issues into this thread that might lead us off into tangents of disagreement not directly related to the subject of this thread.  

Perhaps we could start an alternate thread to discuss the categories of the various gifts?  

Carlos


Logged
felix102
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 476


Jesus Christ is Lord!


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2004, 12:27:35 PM »

Quote
You know it's kind of funny as an aside but have you all ever had your eyes more opened to something of the Lord in the sharing of it with others?  Well mine were after I wrote my last post.  It dawned on me how profound the most excellent way is that Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 13.  As demonstrating the living reality of God in the midst of us, His Body.

Most surely this is the workings of the HOLY SPIRIT inside you. It is the counselor that reveals to you the things from God.

Quote
John 14:16-17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever- the Spirit of Truth.

John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you?? Hmm...I know what that is...love!


Quote
Can we understand or learn more at this point if we were to examine and clarify the doma just a bit?

Yes, that explains and clarifys a whole lot about the gifts in the church.
Logged
Evangelist
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 603


View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2004, 04:54:12 PM »

Carlos:
Agreed, as long as it is crystal clear that the doma and charismata are two distinct things, and not to be confused with each other, even though both are from God.

Quote
I just wanted to suggest that apparently we do have some degree of influence in determining whether God will appoint us to have some gift or not.  Namely through our desires.  If we want a greater gift (as a Body and as individuals within that Body) it is very possible that God will bless us with such

And yet, the receipt and/or use of a specific gift is totally dependent upon God...."...given to men severally (individually) as HE wills...".

While we may desire much, there is this controlling factor of HIS will, and we cannot always discern His perfect (or even permissible) will, Job being a prime example. Sometimes, we just don't know...or have the answer.

Also, Jesus pointed out that whoever is faithful in the small things will be entrusted with more.

Next.
Logged

BroHank
John 8:12 Ministries  www.john812.com
The Beymers  www.thebeymers.org
carlos123
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2004, 06:07:36 PM »

Quote
Agreed, as long as it is crystal clear that the doma and charismata are two distinct things, and not to be confused with each other, even though both are from God.

Thanks for your understanding Evangelist.  I will carry on later tonight as I only have a minute just now.  

I am not sure about the doma and charismata being two different types of gifts having different characteristics as different groups.  Opposed to just having different characteristics as individual gifts.  I will have to think about that some.  You may be entirely right Evangelist.  I am just not sure about that one.  

If you want to start a seperate thread on that maybe we could discuss that more at length?  I will watch for such a thread if you start one and join in.

Until later tonight then.  

Carlos
Logged
carlos123
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2004, 03:25:03 AM »

Continuing with 1 Corinthians....

Quote
1 Corinthians 13:1-7 (NASB)
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor,
and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

One could write a whole book on the above verses but I will try to confine myself to that which might give us some insight on the issue of whether the full list of gifts mentioned by Paul in these chapters is still around for today or whether they have ceased.  

Paul begins by saying that if we do not have love then we have nothing.  We may well be able to exercise this or that gift but if love is not the pre-iminent motivation of our hearts then all our exercising amounts to nothing and profits no one.  Paul then goes on to describe what love is.  

For purposes of our discussion I would like to chew on the the following phrase, "and know all mysteries and all knowledge".  This phrase uses two words associated with knowledge.  

The first one translated in the NASB as "know" is eido (transliterated Greek word).  It is used 666 times in the New Testament and is the root word for lots of other words.  If 666 is the number of Satan then I suppose one might be able to make something of the fact that it is used 666 times Smiley.  

From what I can gather from it's definition in various online Bible tools it basically means to know as we might understand the English word.  To know all mysteries then would be to comprehend or fathom all mysteries.    The King James Version translates this word as "understand".  

The word translated as "knowledge" on the other hand is much more focused in usage.  It is the word gnosis and it is used only 29 times in the New Testament.  Some of it's uses include ....

"...knowledge of salvation..." (Luke 1:77)
"...wisdom and knowledge of God!" (Romans 11:33)
"...we know that we all have knowledge..." (1 Cor 8:1)
"...to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge..." (Ephesians 3:19)

The way I understand it, to know something is to personally comprehend or understand it whereas knowledge is a more static thing as in some knowledge that we might find in a book, be told of, or hear from others without neccessarily comprehending or understanding it.  

I guess the short of it is that to know means pretty much to know and knowledge means pretty much knowledge as we understand these English words.  

Maybe that's why the translators chose these English words to represent the Greek words in our Bibles Smiley.  

The connection between "know" and "knowledge" is most clearly brought out by 1 Corinthians 8:1 where it says...

Quote
Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know (eido) that we all have knowledge (gnosis).  Knowledge (gnosis) makes arrogant, but love edifies.

Forgive my lengthy post but it is vitally important that we come to agreement regarding what kind of knowledge Paul is talking about here.  For  in 1 Cor 13:8 Paul says that when the perfect comes prophecy, tongues, AND knowledge (gnosis) will pass away.  

If knowledge is a gift of knowledge that is somehow different than static knowledge then it might be reasonable to conclude, if the context supports it, that such a gift has passed away.  But if knowledge is just static knowledge as one might get from reading a book then it would make no sense to say that it has passed away since we still know knowledge to this day.  

One other thing I would like to point out.  Paul does not mention all the gifts he does in 1 Cor 12, at the beginning of 1 Cor 13.  He only mentions tongues, prophecy, and faith (though knowledge and giving of oneself to the poor and giving one's body to be burned might be seen as being exhibitions of some gift I suppose).  

Some believe that 1 Cor 13:8 only applies to tongues, prophecy, and knowledge as passing away when the perfect comes and not to everything else.  And yet what grounds do we have for saying that 1 Cor 13:8 only applies to what is mentioned there explicitly while saying in the next breath that love superceeds not only tongues, prophecy, and faith but all things not explicitly mentioned at the beginning of 1 Cor 13 as well.  

It seems to me that we either acknowledge that love superceeds ALL...AND ...that ALL gifts will cease or else that love superceeds ONLY that which Paul explicitly says it does and that ONLY those gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 13:8 will cease when the perfect comes.  

We cannot have both love superceding all things, even those things not mentioned, and then turn around and say that ONLY the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 13:8 will cease when the perfect comes.  That is not a very logical way to view what Paul is saying I think.  Indeed I see nothing in the context to warrant making a distinction of generality on the one hand, regarding what love superceeds, and exclusivity on the other, regarding what will pass away when the perfect comes.  

Paul is making points through these verses and using various gifts to highlight his points.  He is not stating a definite and exclusive list of gifts that are superceeded by love nor is he saying that only tongues, prophecy, and knowledge will pass away when the perfect comes.  

His point is that ALL is superceded by love and that ALL gifts will pass away when the perfect comes.  

Does that make sense?  I know I jumped ahead a bit but it seemed naturaly to expand on this a bit at this point in our thread.  

Carlos
« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 03:53:54 AM by carlos123 » Logged
Evangelist
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 603


View Profile WWW
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2004, 10:43:41 AM »

Carlos:

I'll wait to start a thread on doma until after we finish this one.

I'm in agreement with you in re: knowledge and knowing being two different things in terms of usage, the knowing being much deeper and all-encompassing than just knowledge, or book-learning.

I also agree that Paul's point here is not to limit or exclude any gifts, but to only use certain ones (probably the most abused of them) to explain clearly the controlling factor in the use of any gift...that being love....further, the "love" spoken of here is definitively "agape", or the love of God...the one way nothing expected in return type of love that can ONLY come from Him.

This love is the only applicable controlling factor in any expression of any gift...or life itself.
Logged

BroHank
John 8:12 Ministries  www.john812.com
The Beymers  www.thebeymers.org
carlos123
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2004, 11:54:23 AM »

I have enjoyed this thread so far but mostly I think I have been discussing with those who agree with the basic premise that the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 12, 13, and 14 are still around for today.  

They may be used in ways God did not intend and they may be misunderstood but they are around for the Church in today's times.  

My hope is still that someone who disagrees with what I believe to be God's view and reads this thread might speak up and give us their alternate Scriptural viewpoint.  So that we might have a chance to discuss any difference and move toward agreement.  

I look forward to discussing the doma vs charismatic dimension of the gifts with you Evangelist when this thread wraps up at the end of 1 Cor 14.   The way I have been quoting large groups of verses and expressing what I think they say without much in the way of contrary opinion, we will be at that point quite soon Smiley.  

Carlos
Logged
Evangelist
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 603


View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2004, 12:35:21 PM »

Quote
My hope is still that someone who disagrees with what I believe to be God's view and reads this thread might speak up and give us their alternate Scriptural viewpoint.

 Grin

Oh, don't worry....we're getting close to that point, I think.    Roll Eyes
Logged

BroHank
John 8:12 Ministries  www.john812.com
The Beymers  www.thebeymers.org
carlos123
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2004, 01:32:45 PM »

Okay then...continuing ever onward we come to the heart of our topic....

Quote
1 Corinthians 13:8-10
Love never fails;

but

if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away;
if there are tongues, they will cease;
if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

For

we know in part and
we prophesy in part;

but

when the perfect comes,
the partial will be done away.

The above verses are a study in contrast.  Here's my take on what Paul is saying...

Love (agape or God's type of love as Evangelist pointed out) will never fail compared to prophecy, tongues, and knowledge (knowledge being the the Greek word gnosis here - discussed in a previous post) but more generally compared to the gifts Paul has been covering up this point.  Fail in the sense of passing away or be no more.  

Bear in mind the context.  Just previous to this Paul was highlighting the pre-iminence of love compared to the gifts.  His thoughts here just re-enforce the supremacy of love.  Not only does love supercede the gifts (1 Cor 13:1-3) but it will also never fail compared to the gifts.  

Next, with the word "For..." Paul expands on the failing nature of the gifts by pointing out that they are imperfect.  Partial.  Not complete.  In pointing to and expressing all that Christ is (based on the context we have gone over in this thread).  

Paul then, with "But...", introduces that which will take the place of what will pass away "...when the perfect comes..."   The perfect will take the place of that which will pass away (i.e. the gifts).  And unlike that which will pass away, the perfect will express and reveal the fullness of who Christ is.

It will be perfect.  Complete.  

When Paul wrote this the imperfect (or the gifts) were in operation.  The perfect (not sure what that is yet) was yet to come.  And thus Paul could say that we (in his here and now) "...know in part and we prophesy in part;".  

The perfect and the partial cannot co-exist.  When the perfect comes the partial will be done away with and cease.  If the partial is here then the perfect has not yet come.  

If any of the gifts mentioned by Paul, which are imperfect are still around today, then the perfect has not yet come.  If the perfect has come then NONE of the gifts mentioned by Paul are still around.  For the perfect has superceded them in the same sense that love is pre-iminent over everything else.  

Either Paul was lumping all gifts into the imperfect as passing away when the perfect comes or else he was singling out only tongues, prophecy, and knowledge.  Either Paul was saying that ALL gifts and ALL that we do is superceded by love or else only tongues, prophecy, knowledge, faith, giving our bodies to be burned, and giving all that we possess to feed the poor are.  

Which gifts will pass away when the perfect comes?

- faith
- tongues
- prophecy
- knowledge
- words of knowledge
- words of wisdom
- administration
- healing
- distinguishing of spirits
- effecting of miracles
- interpretation of tongues
- apostles
- teachers
- helps

This is not a definitive and exclusive list mind you.  Only those mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor 12 and 13.  

Have all these truly passed away?  Then and only then can we say that there are grounds for believing that the perfect is now here.

One other point....

The gifts are given to His Body which is presently comprised of different members.  Namely us.  They operate together within the Church to reveal Christ.  No one of us is able to exhibit Christ through our individual body alone.  Rather Christ is best exhibited, as partial as that may still be, through all of us in His Body operating together.

When the perfect comes Christ will be revealed in such a way that there is no partiality about it.  It will be full and complete.  

It is my opinion that the partial nature of the Body such that it is comprised of different members will cease to be.  And that the fullness of God will fill all in all such that the partial nature of Christ revealed through the Church will be complete.  The partial passing away.

Would anyone care to add anything to what I have said or express any differences?  

Carlos
« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 01:50:02 PM by carlos123 » Logged
Evangelist
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 603


View Profile WWW
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2004, 02:46:54 PM »

Now we're there.

Your list of gifts, I don't think, is really necessary for consideration at this point. We are faced squarely with the necessity of acknowledging several things.

First, that any of the gifts (no matter where named or what they are) are in part, or incomplete, as they themselves are not perfect as Paul (and Carlos) point out.

Even those gifts that are expressed (manifested) in the perfect love of Christ, and can therefore be faultless, are still not the complete or whole manifestation of Christ Himself, and His love. Paul makes this abundantly clear with continual references to the fact that any ONE member of the body of Christ is just that....only one small part, and that all parts need each other to function properly.

By the same token, the gifts listed show that one gift needs another to be properly expressed and understood. Knowledge needs wisdom, or how to properly apply the knowledge gained. Tongues need an interpretation, and so on.

Where the fun begins is with trying to understand "that which is perfect".
Every study bible I have cross references this verse "when that which is perfect is come..." to

1Jo 3:2   Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The word perfect is teleos, and means:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect

Let's look at
Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished:  and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

When Jesus spoke these words, He indicated that the battle was over, the fight was finished, His assignment was absolutely complete, and there was nothing left to be done. The word "it is finished" is teleo, and is in the perfect (done deal for all time), passive voice and indicative mood.  In other words....its over, absolutely and final.

I don't think that there will be too much contention over the fact, as shown in scripture, that Jesus is the ONLY perfect, complete, and finished one (thing) that is, or will be. Not until we are glorified, and made to be like Him will we be perfect.

By the same token, there is nothing on this earth that can be considered perfect and lacking nothing to be complete.

Some apologists maintain that Paul's references here were preparatory to the point in time when the canon of scripture would be closed, and portended the replacement of the gifts with the canon, which would include all necessary revelation and prophecy that would be needed until the end of the age. As a result, they believe that the reference to "that which is perfect shall come" was direct reference to the introduction of the New Testament collected writings, or canon.

This of necessity leads to a series of questions.
1. If this is the case, then why do all (most) study bibles reference the verse to 1 Jn 3, which is direct reference to the appearing of Jesus Christ?
2. Although the canon has been closed, it must be admitted that that canon is subject (and has been for 18 centuries) to some measure of debate over what is or is not canon. Is that perfect?
3. While we have in our hands over 5000 fragments of original, or nearly original texts, there is some measure of disagreement between some of those texts. Wouldn't that which is perfect be in absolute agreement in all instances?


"When that which is perfect is come" is a direct reference to the return of Jesus Christ, at which point in time all born-again believers will be translated from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality, from partial understanding to full understanding. Simply put, only Jesus is perfect...and until He comes, imperfection will remain.  Thus, if imperfection is still present, then gifts are still present.

Notice also how Paul then goes into verses (not yet quoted) about how we are NOW looking through a glass darkly (one obscured, hazy, hard to see through, and full of dirt and grime....our imperfection), but THEN (when?) shall we see clearly.
Logged

BroHank
John 8:12 Ministries  www.john812.com
The Beymers  www.thebeymers.org
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



More From ChristiansUnite...    About Us | Privacy Policy | | ChristiansUnite.com Site Map | Statement of Beliefs



Copyright © 1999-2019 ChristiansUnite.com. All rights reserved.
Please send your questions, comments, or bug reports to the

Powered by SMF 1.1 RC2 | SMF © 2001-2005, Lewis Media