Are We in the End Times, Prophetic Signs

[BigD]

PART 2

Evangelist posted:
While Israel may have been "set aside" during the times of the Gentiles, they have neither been ignored, nor forgotten.

BigD responds:
You are certainly right when you say that God has not forgotten Isreal. He remembers His promises to them and He will keep them. However, no promises that God made to Isreal are being fulfilled today, other then the fact that God gave the "slumbering eyes."

Evangelist replies:
Key in on the word "being", as in: transitory, transitional, in the process of, etc.

BigD answers:
OT prophesies are not "being" fulfilled today, however, events are happening that will lead to the fulfillment of OT prophesies.
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Evangelist posted:
I don't believe anyone here has presented the idea that we are currently in the tribulation period...ONLY that there are certain events, verifiable in prophecy, that are in flux and movement toward that final stage.

BigD responds:
Without going back to check, I do believe that some were posting that OT prophesies were being fulfilled today in this dispensation of grace. My contention is that they are not. However, there are events happening today that will lead to the fulfillment of prophesy.

Evangelist replies:
First, I'm not speaking for others....only myself. Second, your phraseology "there are events happening.....that will LEAD to....fullfillment..." is no different from saying that there are events happening that are PART OF the playing out, completion, or eventual fullfillment of those prophecies. NONE of the prophecies are going to magically and instantly appear as fulfilled in the blink of an eye (except for our translation..hehe).....they are an on-going process.

Just for a moment...let's take one small example, that being the "mark" of the beast, and buying/selling. At no time in recorded history has the ability, or technology of humankind been capable of allowing such a thing to come to pass until just a few years ago. While the "mark" has not been imposed as yet, the technology is now available, so that when the beast decides to impose it, it can be done.  True, the particular prophecy concerning the mark has NOT come to pass (it is still unfulfilled), the existence of the technology means that a small portion of the prophecy (causes them to take the mark so that no man can buy or sell without it) HAS been fulfilled.

Almost ALL prophecy is made up of a number of smaller segments...and some of those segments can, and are, either being fulfilled or ARE fulfilled.

Apply the same reasoning to the 200 million man army.  They haven't marched, but they are there...just waiting.

BigD answers:
Paul speaks about the condition of the world prior to the time of the rapture. Yet, we cannot say that the rapture is going to happen in the very near future. It is quite possible that it will, and it could be that it won't happen for another 1,000 years, or more, from now.

How does this dispensation of grace fit into you fulfillment of OT prophesy? Can you find this dispensation of grace in prophesy?

My Bible tells me that the time clock of OT prophesy has stopped during this dispensation of grace.

Just because there are modern inventions that are available that are capable for the "mark" of the beast to know who is buying and selling doesn't mean that they will be used during the Tribulation. When the Tribulation happens, there may be even better methods of doing it then what we have today.

Yes China does have a 200,000,000 man Army. Who is it fighting today. They aren't doing anything to fulfill the prophesy in the book of the Revelation. I'm not saying they won't. The 200,000,000 million man Army could also be made up of group of nations that belong to the UN or those nations in the Common Market of Europe. I haven't read about China in the book of Revelation.

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Evangelist posted:
You seem to present the notion that NONE of the OT prophecies can possibly come to pass, or even begin to come to pass, until the tribulation begins. I would submit that that is not only unreasonable, but goes a long way to attempting to put God in a box, bound from accomplishing His purpose in whatever way He sees fit.  I really don't think you believe that, but the presentation certainly leaves that impression.

BigD posted:
My contention is this. There are no OT pophesies being fulfilled in this dispensation of grace. The things that are prophesied in that OT that pertain to the "last days"/"end times", will happen in the "last days"/"end times". WE ARE NOT IN THOSE DAYS. The "last days"/"endtimes" started in Acts 2:15-20. They were interrupted. They will not resume again UNTIL the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

Evangelist posted:
Interesting.....try reading a little history. Up until roughly 350 AD, recorded sermons and writings of early church fathers and leaders made reference to "since we are in the last times," and other similar phraseology. It would seem that they considered themselves to be in the "last days."  Granted, though, that there is a distinction between "last days", or "end times" and "last days of the tribulation", or the "very end of the end times".

BigD answers:
If the recorded sermons and writings of the early church fathers and leaders wrote by inspiration of God, then I believe God would have seen to it that those writings would be in the Bible. I go by the Church history of the Bible.
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Cont'd PART 3

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

PART 3
BigD posted:
I hate to keep repeating myself, but you haven't SHOWN ME were I am wrong. You only tell me what you believe.

Evangelist responds:
ROFL....I think you're the one who keeps saying "IMHO", along with making reference to events as factual without showing how.

BigD replies:
When I use the expression "IMHO", I as saying that is what the Bible teaches.

What events have I refered to as factual without showing how?
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Evangelist posted:
Finally, in re other OT prophecies, you said "BRING IT ON". I would ask "why?", if your approach is to categorically deny that any OT prophecies could possibly be fulfilled during this dispensation of grace?

BigD responds:
Well you seemed to indicate that there were many more OT prophesied that were fulfilled in this dispensation; when you really haven't shown me even one. So, If there are more OT prophesies that you believe were fulfilled in this dispensation, I envite you to "bring them on."
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Evangelist posted:
Remember, if you will, the words of Jesus when He told His disciples who had been admiring the Temple that it would be torn down. That was in roughly 32/33 AD.  Paul, who introduced (by your reckoning) the Gospel of Grace and this current dispensation, died in roughly 64 AD.

The Temple was torn down in 70 AD.  An 'OT' prophecy (given under the dispensation of the law) fulfilled 32 years later (under the dispensation of grace).

BigD responds:
I don't ever recall reading in prophesy what Jesus said in Matthew 24:1-3 about the Temple being torn down. If I am wrong in that area, PLEASE correct me. Yes, what Jesus said did happen in 70 AD.

Evangelist replies:
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.(2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I'm not quite clear on what you're saying here. Are you saying that what Jesus said was NOT a prophecy, or are you saying that this event was not spoken of by any of the OT prophets?

If it is the first, then all I can say is.....??????

If the second, please read Dan. 9:26

BigD answers:
I am saying it is the first. PLEASE SHOW ME the OT prophesy that was fulfilled in AD 70.
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Evangelist posted:
It is immaterial to the subject at hand as to whether or not any of the OT prophets saw, knew, or understood anything at all about the dispensation of Grace....certainly it would be fair to assume that God did, and He is the one who told the prophets what to say... He did NOT require them to understand, and obviously didn't give them revelation concerning it....but that in no way compromises the revelation, the prophecy, or its ultimate fulfillment.

BigD responds:
The dispensation of grace was not an after thought, but what God planned it before the world was created, and kept it a secret/mystery until it was revealed to the Aposlte Paul. It was His secret weapon to defeat satan.

One cannot find the cross and what it will do in any OT prophesies. 1Cor2:7,8 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdome, which God ordained before the world (before creation) unto our glory: Which none of the princes of the world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory."

It was the cross that defeated satan. Had he know that the cross would seal his doom, he would have "worked like the devil" to keep Christ from the cross.

Evangelist replies:
Mostly, I agree....but OTOH, I find the cross amply present throughout the OT.....but of course, I have hindsight.  

There is, though.... Num. 21:8-9 cf. John 12:32-33.  Granted that Moses did not understand it, but that lack of understanding does not prevent the parallel that Jesus drew from it.

BigD answers:
Num. 21:8-9  "And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

John 12:32-33 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

HOW did that draw a parallel that Jesus drew from it.

John 3:13,14 does have a reference to Numbers 21:8-9.

The purpose of the cross was unknown during OT times (1Cor2:7,8). Yes, we can see it now because of hind site.

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Evangelist posted:
BTW...the rending of the veil in the Temple. As Paul put it, it was the "tearing down of the wall of partition" between man and God, between Jew and Gentile, making access to God personally available to everyone. The "making of twain one for Himself". (Eph. 2:12-19)

BigD responds:
I cannot find anywhere in Scripture where the Temple veil was the middle wall of partition between the Jew and Gentile. That wall of partition was in place prior to the Temple ever being built. Hope you can come up with better "proof text" then that. Even after the veil was wrent, it was still unlawful for a Jew to go to one of another country. This was confirmed by Peter in Acts 10:28. That was at least 5-10 years the cross.

Evangelist replies:
"He who has eyes to see, let him see...he who has ears to hear, let him hear..."
You say that a "wall of partition was in place prior to the Temple ever being built."

Part of Gods original charge to Israel was to be a light unto the Gentiles, showing them the way to the one true God. It was the Israelites themselves who erected the "wall of partition" by their action and subversion of His law, and effectively separated mankind into two camps....those who could approach God (Israel) and those who could not (all others) UNLESS they came through the Jews.....and that predated the instructions to build even the tabernacle, much less the temple.

Even after the veil was rent, and at least 5-10 years after the cross, Peter dissembled.....did that make him right? Did that mean that such separation was still in effect in Gods eyes? Or does that mean that sinful misunderstanding man continued to misrepresent, misinterpret, and mishandle Gods will and Word?

38 years after the cross, it was still "unlawful" to walk more than so many paces on the Sabbath.  So?

BigD answers:
Yes, Isreal was to be a light to the Gentiles. If Israel would obey God, God would shower them with blessings. THEN the Gentiles would see the blessing that Israel had and would go to the Jews to find out why they were so blessed. The Gentiles would come to them.

When Israel returns to God then Isaiah 60:1-3 will be fulfilled. "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And The Gentiles shall COME to thy light, and the kings to the brightness of thy rising."

Zechariah 8:23 "Thus saith the Lord of Host; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will GO WITH YOU, for we have heard that God is with you.

It was God who made the distinction between the Jew and Gentile when He set the Gentiles aside in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Babel. They brough it upon himself. The only way for a Gentile to serve the true and Living God was for that Gentile to become a Jew (proselyte).

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Sulfurdolphin]

 Hi DreamWeaver thank you for the link.

I agreed with you 100% of what you said in the beginning starting thread for this forum.

 I want to add my own belief in where we are at in the end times and the Trumpet were currently in.

Revelation chapter 8

First Trumpet: was World War One

Second Trumpet: was World War Two

Third Trumpet: was the Russian Chernobyl nuclear accident in 1986 on April 26. Chernobyl in the Ukraine and in Ukrainian  means and Chernobyl means WormWood.

Fourth Trumpet: was Desert Storm war in 1991 the 1000 oil wells that Saddam destroyed burning oil wells covered the third of the sun and the third of the moon and the third of stars.


Fifth Trumpet: was again part of the Desert Storm War

Here is a website i found last night about the Desert Storm War.
However, these "horses prepared unto battle" were flying (locusts fly), and so he was shown flying war-machines, that had what looked similar to a crown of gold on their heads; faces like the faces of men; breast-plates of metal; the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle; tails like scorpions with stings in them.

Saudi Arabia is very sunny and with the sunlight on the rotor-blades, looking down on them flying, it would (and did) appear like a crown on the locust's (helicopter's) head.

Looking at them from the front with the two windows (eyes); the nose and some had a mouth with teeth like lion's teeth painted on them; they looked like a face, but also, men sit in them and they certainly have faces like the faces of men.

John said they had breast-plates like breast-plates of iron (metal) because they are made of metal (aluminium) and he didn't say aluminium because it had not been invented then and wouldn't be, for almost 2000 years into the future.

The sound of their wings was "like the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle." The only flying-machine that sounds like that is a HELICOPTER.

They had tails like scorpions (they stick up in the air) and there were stings in their tails (the tail rotor-blade).

The verse that causes the most confusion and would prevent most people from recognising the LOCUSTS as helicopters is verse 8 because of the reference to them having hair like the hair of women. Helicopters do not have hair like the hair of women - but in the Gulf War they did.

The key is in the past. In John's day all the women, except those in disgrace, had very long hair because they were not allowed to cut their hair short. If they were in disgrace their hair was cut for them, as a sign that they were in disgrace.

A lady's hair was known as her glory and her "covering". The operative word here is "covering" and that word is the key to the riddle.

John was shown the helicopters flying, with the sun on their rotor-blades which made them look like "crowns like gold", but he was also shown them on the ground, where they were kept under camouflage nets that hung down to the ground and was their "covering".

The "SCORPIONS" were armoured ground vehicles and the IRONY is that the British armoured vehicles are actually CALLED "Scorpions".


Now it is time to return to the verses (3-6) that I promised earlier on to return to once we knew what the "locusts" and "scorpions" were, and to see how accurately the prophecy fits the Iraq - Kuwait Gulf conflict of 1990/91.

The U.S.A./ U.K. and allies were building up their military capability for weeks but as soon as Sadam's forces set fire to the 1000 oil-wells and the SMOKE appeared, the allies moved immediately against the Iraquis and the LOCUSTS (helicopters) and SCORPIONS (armoured vehicles) came out of the SMOKE, just as John wrote it 2000 years before it happened.

Next we have the statement that they were commanded not to hurt the grass or any green thing or any tree and they obeyed.

During the Vietnam War the U.S.A. "carpet-bombed" and used "agent orange" (a defoliant) and "napalm" (fire) both of which caused a great deal of damage to the vegetation (greenery).

This time, using laser and video-guided weapons with precision "pin-point" accuracy, the allies hit only exactly what they aimed at and did not destroy the vegetation.

"Men shall seek death and shall not find it." During the build-up, the allies were "gung-ho" and ready to die but when the time came they did not DIE.

On the allies side virtually all of the fatal casualties, and there were only about 16 of them, were caused by "so-called" "friendly-fire". If there can be such a thing.


Never in the field of human conflict were so few killed by so many.

The torment lasted for 5 months with the combatants not knowing whether they were going to live or die.

11. "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abbadon, but in Greek his name is Apollyon."

The words Abbadon and Apollyon, both, when translated into English, mean "the Destroyer" - "the angel of the bottomless pit" - SATAN.

Sadam, like others before him (Hitler; Stalin; etc.), is merely a glove-puppet for Satan and does the bidding of his master, Lucifer, "the angel of the bottomless pit" - Satan.

Who other than Satan would be so insane as to set fire to 1000 oil-wells and tip tons of sticky, black crude-oil into the sea?

Only the "Destroyer", who wants to, and is trying to, kill YOU and has vowed to destroy ALL of you and take YOU with him into the "FIRE", would be that crazy.

In Revelation 16 v 10-12 we are told about the seat of the beast - Babylon, where the destructive "market-system" began thousands of years ago, in what is now called Iraq - "And his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, and blasphemed the God of Heaven because of their pains and their sores"---

His kingdom WAS full of darkness literally and IS full of darkness spiritually, still.

The people did gnaw their tongues because of their pains and their sores, caused by the sulphuric acid in their lungs and on their skin.

The crude-oil in that region of the world is very heavily laden with sulphur and when you mix sulphur with water you get sulphuric acid. It rained sulphuric acid-rain for thousands of miles around that area and wherever the wind blew the smoke pollution.

During W.W.1. the "mustard-gas" that was used was sulphur-gas and it burned the lungs and the skin of those exposed to it. The moisture in the lungs turns sulphur-gas into acid and sweat on the skin does the same.

The people in Kuwait were having respiratory (breathing) difficulties early on and the full details were never publicised.


Sixth Trumpet Watch

China says Taiwan war-mongering
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3699460.stm

U.S. Calm After N. Korea Nuke Claim
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,133874,00.html

N. Korea used to justify missile system
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6126471/

On the Sixth Trumpet Watch i got the info from a Radio Station called POLITICS AND RELIGION here is there website

http://www.endtime.com/html/radiohtm.asp

http://www.endtime.com/

They have explained all the Trumpets in full detail i dont have the info as they do to explain it in full as i want to.

Michael

[Evangelist]

BigD:

t was God who made the distinction between the Jew and Gentile when He set the Gentiles aside in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Babel. They brough it upon himself. The only way for a Gentile to serve the true and Living God was for that Gentile to become a Jew (proselyte).

Don't have much time, but this one....

God did NOT set aside the "Gentiles" or make any distinction between Jew and Gentile at the tower of Babel. Jews did not come into existence until the time of Abrahams sons (the Patriarchs of the Twelve Tribes). At the time of Babel, ALL were "gentiles," if you want to call them that.

[Evangelist]

IMHO the ONLY thing that must happen before the Tribulation that started in Acts 2:15-20, and was interrupted with the setting aside of the nation Israel, is the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

Evangelist replies:
I'm glad you said IMHO.

BigD answers:
Can you name some other event that must happen prior to the rapture of the Church? Please give Scriptural support for your answer.

1. Many will come in the name of Christ, deceiving (Mat. 24:5)
2. Wars and rumors of wars (Mat. 24:6)
3. Famines, pestilence, earthquakes in diverse places (Mat. 24:7)
4. False prophets (Mat. 24:11)
5. Apostasy (Mat. 24:12, 2 Thess. 2:3)
6. When Israel (a fig tree) blossoms (puts forth young leaves) ie: is reconstituted (Mat. 24:32-33)
7. The man of sin (antichrist) is revealed (2 Thess. 2:3)

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days (Tribulation), saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and you young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will ppour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy;
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneith; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20.The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Peter at Pentecost is quoting Joel 2:28-32 almost word for word. Joel 2 is speaking of the 70th week of Dainel, the Tribulation. Here in Acts 2, the signs are beginning to appear.

I'll point out to you that you introduce the word tribulation into the scripture....that's a naughty. Shame, shame!!  The words "last days" are not now, and never have been synonymous with the Tribulation, Great Tribulation, the Time of Jacob's trouble, or the outpouring of the wrath of God.

There was no peace treaty with the anti-christ signed.

Which automatically puts your interpretation at complete odds with scripture, namely Daniel, Matthew, and Jesus.

Don't bother to tell me that Peter was mistaken. Peter knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophesy.

Why should I tell you Peter was mistaken? He knew where he was in the timetable, which is far more than can be said for you. Pay attention to the last words of Joel (and Peter).....BEFORE the great and notable day of the Lord...
And, in case you are not aware of it, the Joel passage describes the Day of the Lord, or His day of Wrath (aka Tribulation) as a TERRIBLE day, not a notable (or conspicuous) day. There was a mistranslation in the Stephanus TR from the Hebrew.

Peter is definitely describing the event prophesied by Joel of the outpouring of God's Holy Spirit during the "last days," which ENCOMPASSES the times of the Gentiles, or the dispensation of Grace.

BigD answers:
Jesus told the leaders of Israel in Matthew 22:43 "Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

In the Tribulation period we find that Isreal is represented by members of the 12 tribes. The sealed 144,000 of Revelation 7:4-8. There fruit is mentioned in vs 9.

What does that have to do with this? Are you trying to make a case for misdirection, obfuscation, or simple apples and oranges?

BigD answers:
In the OT when Isreal was driven from the land it was due to punishment. God did not discontinue His dealing with them as His favored people. During this dispensation of grace, God is not dealing with Isreal as His favored people or as a nation.

Right! That's why Israel is being regathered. And why their big war only lasted 6 days. And why they have been able to reclaim land. No blessings from God there, they did it ALL on their own.

BigD answers:
OT prophesies are not "being" fulfilled today, however, events are happening that will lead to the fulfillment of OT prophesies.

That ranks right up there with "it depends on what you mean by 'that' " (thank you, slick willie!).

BigD answers:
Paul speaks about the condition of the world prior to the time of the rapture. Yet, we cannot say that the rapture is going to happen in the very near future. It is quite possible that it will, and it could be that it won't happen for another 1,000 years, or more, from now.

And so does Jesus, and Peter, and James, and John. And most particularly, we are told that when we SEE certain signs 'coming to pass' (being fulfilled/in the process of being fulfilled/leading up to a time of fulfillment) we are to "lift up thine (our) eyes, for YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH."  Simply put, the time is close, not distant.

How does this dispensation of grace fit into you fulfillment of OT prophesy? Can you find this dispensation of grace in prophesy?

****sigh****

My Bible tells me that the time clock of OT prophesy has stopped during this dispensation of grace.

Chapter and verse, please. I was listening to my bible (KJV, 1648) and didn't hear it say that at all. Maybe it was just mumblin'.

Just because there are modern inventions that are available that are capable for the "mark" of the beast to know who is buying and selling doesn't mean that they will be used during the Tribulation. When the Tribulation happens, there may be even better methods of doing it then what we have today.

Yes...there might be....and we might be knocked out of orbit by a photon beam from the REAL Klingons, too.

Yes China does have a 200,000,000 man Army. Who is it fighting today. They aren't doing anything to fulfill the prophesy in the book of the Revelation. I'm not saying they won't. The 200,000,000 million man Army could also be made up of group of nations that belong to the UN or those nations in the Common Market of Europe. I haven't read about China in the book of Revelation.

Rofl. Biiiiiiig Rofl.  Surely your bible contains the phrase "Kings of the East", doesn't it? Oh...sorry.....if it doesn't say China, then they must not be there. And the same would then apply to the Common Market, right? And Russia?

BigD answers:
If the recorded sermons and writings of the early church fathers and leaders wrote by inspiration of God, then I believe God would have seen to it that those writings would be in the Bible. I go by the Church history of the Bible.

Which said history ended in 95 AD.  So nothing has happened since? Nothing that anybody has said since then makes any difference to you? If that's the case, then why are you an Act's 9'er? Why not an Act's 2'ish? Even better, why not just a plain old Scofield/Darby Dispy? Surely as a pretrib/premil you like what Ephraem had to say...don't you?

I hate to keep repeating myself, but you haven't SHOWN ME were I am wrong. You only tell me what you believe.

Evangelist responds:
ROFL....I think you're the one who keeps saying "IMHO", along with making reference to events as factual without showing how.

BigD replies:
When I use the expression "IMHO", I as saying that is what the Bible teaches.

Then it would behoove you to begin posting actual scriptures without inserting your own words or interpretation.

What events have I refered to as factual without showing how?

As noted above, your contention that the tribulation actually began, and then was parenthesized. State a date, state the supporting scripture, and resolve it with Daniel et al.

I'm not quite clear on what you're saying here. Are you saying that what Jesus said was NOT a prophecy, or are you saying that this event was not spoken of by any of the OT prophets?

If it is the first, then all I can say is.....

If the second, please read Dan. 9:26

BigD answers:
I am saying it is the first. PLEASE SHOW ME the OT prophesy that was fulfilled in AD 70.

Methinks you may have a bit of problem reading. Jesus made a prophetic statement, circa 32/33 AD concerning the temple. It parallels the prophecy given by Daniel.  The prophecy came to pass in 70 AD.

Since you chose option 1 (the first), then you must not consider the words of Jesus to be inspired, holy or prophetic, in which case you need to do a serious rethinking of your position in Him.

BigD answers:
Num. 21:8-9  "And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

John 12:32-33 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

HOW did that draw a parallel that Jesus drew from it.

John 3:13,14 does have a reference to Numbers 21:8-9.

The purpose of the cross was unknown during OT times (1Cor2:7,8). Yes, we can see it now because of hind site.

I think you've answered your own question.

[BigD]

BigD:

t was God who made the distinction between the Jew and Gentile when He set the Gentiles aside in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Babel. They brough it upon himself. The only way for a Gentile to serve the true and Living God was for that Gentile to become a Jew (proselyte).

Don't have much time, but this one....

God did NOT set aside the "Gentiles" or make any distinction between Jew and Gentile at the tower of Babel. Jews did not come into existence until the time of Abrahams sons (the Patriarchs of the Twelve Tribes). At the time of Babel, ALL were "gentiles," if you want to call them that.

BigD responds:
Sorry about the delay in responding, but my computer crashed "big time" and had to send it to the hospital. I think the computer people sent it to the people hospital to the Expensive Care Unit. Well the bill indicated that.

Let me make myself a little more clear.

After God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel, in Genesis 11, He (God) raised up Abram to take a people unto Himself. That happened to be the nation of Israel.

Those living during the at the time of Abram and Genesis 11 were called Gentiles. See Genesis 10:5.

Tomarrow I am leaving for 1 week to go to a military reunion in Las Vages. Therefore, I will not have time to respond to the other post of yours. I WILL DO IT when I return. Being I have a great many things to do yet today, I doubt if I will get to it today. Be patient. I will be back.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Evangelist]

BigD responds:
Sorry about the delay in responding, but my computer crashed "big time" and had to send it to the hospital. I think the computer people sent it to the people hospital to the Expensive Care Unit. Well the bill indicated that.

I understand...of course, if you had a MAC  

Let me make myself a little more clear.

After God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel, in Genesis 11, He (God) raised up Abram to take a people unto Himself. That happened to be the nation of Israel.

Those living during the at the time of Abram and Genesis 11 were called Gentiles. See Genesis 10:5.

Agreed that ALL were Gentiles, but you did say that at the Tower GOD distinguised between Jew and Gentile....that did happen a bit later.

Tomarrow I am leaving for 1 week to go to a military reunion in Las Vages. Therefore, I will not have time to respond to the other post of yours.

Enjoy!! While you're there, if you can get any to do so, please pray for my son-in-law currently with 1st Cav 2/7 (Ghost Battalion) in Najaf.

I WILL DO IT when I return. Being I have a great many things to do yet today, I doubt if I will get to it today. Be patient. I will be back.

Take your time, and I'll patiently wait.
Again, enjoy!!

[BigD]

PART 1

BigD posted:
IMHO the ONLY thing that must happen before the Tribulation that started in Acts 2:15-20, and was interrupted with the setting aside of the nation Israel, is the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

Evangelist replies:
I'm glad you said IMHO.

BigD answers:
Can you name some other event that must happen prior to the rapture of the Church? Please give Scriptural support for your answer

Evangelist responded:
1. Many will come in the name of Christ, deceiving (Mat. 24:5)
2. Wars and rumors of wars (Mat. 24:6)
3. Famines, pestilence, earthquakes in diverse places (Mat. 24:7)
4. False prophets (Mat. 24:11)
5. Apostasy (Mat. 24:12, 2 Thess. 2:3)
6. When Israel (a fig tree) blossoms (puts forth young leaves) ie: is reconstituted (Mat. 24:32-33)

BigD replies:
The above verses apply during the Tribulation. The Chruch, the Body of Christ will not go through the Tribulation/Great Tribulation as per 1Thess5:9.

Evangelist continued:
7. The man of sin (antichrist) is revealed (2 Thess. 2:3)

BigD answers:
This will happen AFTER the Chruch, the Body of Christ is raptured.
-------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days (Tribulation), saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and you young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will ppour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy;
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneith; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20.The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Peter at Pentecost is quoting Joel 2:28-32 almost word for word. Joel 2 is speaking of the 70th week of Dainel, the Tribulation. Here in Acts 2, the signs are beginning to appear.

Evangelist responds:
I'll point out to you that you introduce the word tribulation into the scripture....that's a naughty. Shame, shame!!  The words "last days" are not now, and never have been synonymous with the Tribulation, Great Tribulation, the Time of Jacob's trouble, or the outpouring of the wrath of God.

BigD replies:
FYI the "last days" include both the Tribulation and the mellennial reign of Christ upon the earth. Peter is speaking of the "last days" in Acts 2:17. Peter is saying that they are appearing already.
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BigD posted:
There was no peace treaty with the anti-christ signed.

Evangelist responded:
Which automatically puts your interpretation at complete odds with scripture, namely Daniel, Matthew, and Jesus.

BigD replies:
Well Peter is telling his listeners that the "last day" have started. There was no peace treaty signed with the anti-christ signed at that time. According to your understanding, Peter is at odds with Daniel, Matthew and Jesus.
----------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
Don't bother to tell me that Peter was mistaken. Peter knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophesy.

Evangelist responded:
Why should I tell you Peter was mistaken? He knew where he was in the timetable, which is far more than can be said for you. Pay attention to the last words of Joel (and Peter).....BEFORE the great and notable day of the Lord...

And, in case you are not aware of it, the Joel passage describes the Day of the Lord, or His day of Wrath (aka Tribulation) as a TERRIBLE day, not a notable (or conspicuous) day. There was a mistranslation in the Stephanus TR from the Hebrew.

Peter is definitely describing the event prophesied by Joel of the outpouring of God's Holy Spirit during the "last days," which ENCOMPASSES the times of the Gentiles, or the dispensation of Grace.

BigD responds:
Joel and Peter are both discribing the Tribulation. It is at the end of the Tribulation that Jesus comes back as a righteous judge and judges the worl. That is "the great and notable of the Lord." Peter is describing the events that must take place prior to the return of Christ, i.e. the great and notable day of the Lord, and already beginning to appear. What part of "THIS IS THAT" don't you understand?
----------------------------------------------------
Evangelist posted:
For the nation to sign a peace treaty, it must exist.

BigD responds:
The nation of Isreal does exist now, but it is not restored Isreal. Also, after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, God will be dealing the sealed 144,000  mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8.

Evangelist replies:
Israel regathered is Israel restored (at least in part). That's called a fait accompli. What does the sealing of 144,000 have to do with this?

That the nation of Israel now exists is a given....regardless of HOW it exists.

BigD answers:
Jesus told the leaders of Israel in Matthew 22:43 "Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

In the Tribulation period we find that Isreal is represented by members of the 12 tribes. The sealed 144,000 of Revelation 7:4-8. There fruit is mentioned in vs 9.

Evangelist  comes back and asks:
What does that have to do with this? Are you trying to make a case for misdirection, obfuscation, or simple apples and oranges?

BigD comes back
No, just trying to show you that after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, God will again be dealing with the nation of Israel through the 144,000 sealed Jews during the Tribulation period. The Chruch, the Body of Christ will have been raptured to heaven during the Tribulation period.
-----------------------------------------

BigD answers:
In the OT when Isreal was driven from the land it was due to punishment. God did not discontinue His dealing with them as His favored people. During this dispensation of grace, God is not dealing with Isreal as His favored people or as a nation.

Evangelist responds:
Right! That's why Israel is being regathered. And why their big war only lasted 6 days. And why they have been able to reclaim land. No blessings from God there, they did it ALL on their own.

BigD comes back:
Yup, they did it all on their own. The nation of Israel today is not the restored Israel that God will be dealing with during the Tribulation.
-----------------------------------

BigD answers:
OT prophesies are not "being" fulfilled today, however, events are happening that will lead to the fulfillment of OT prophesies.

Evanagelist replies:
That ranks right up there with "it depends on what you mean by 'that' " (thank you, slick willie!).

BigD responds:
WOW!!! What insight you show in that response. Well, at least you said something; even though it means nothing to me.
------------------------------------

BigD answers:
Paul speaks about the condition of the world prior to the time of the rapture. Yet, we cannot say that the rapture is going to happen in the very near future. It is quite possible that it will, and it could be that it won't happen for another 1,000 years, or more, from now.

Evangelist responds:
And so does Jesus, and Peter, and James, and John. And most particularly, we are told that when we SEE certain signs 'coming to pass' (being fulfilled/in the process of being fulfilled/leading up to a time of fulfillment) we are to "lift up thine (our) eyes, for YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH."  Simply put, the time is close, not distant.

BigD replies:
What Peter, James and John are told in Luke 21:28 belong to the Tribulation period, and are told these things even prior to Paul even being saved. What Paul is speaking of is still future revelation. You are reading future revelation into past events. THAT IS A NO NO. Do you read "the Laws of Moses" into "the Garden of Eden also?"
----------------------------------

BigD asks:
How does this dispensation of grace fit into you fulfillment of OT prophesy? Can you find this dispensation of grace in prophesy?

Evangelist answers:
****sigh****

BigD responds:
When you don't know how to answer a question, just give out a sigh; maybe it will go away.

Well, I will be gone for a week, so that should give you pleanty of time to come up with an answer.

Cont'd in PART 2

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

PART 2

BigD posted:
My Bible tells me that the time clock of OT prophesy has stopped during this dispensation of grace.

Evangelist responds:
Chapter and verse, please. I was listening to my bible (KJV, 1648) and didn't hear it say that at all. Maybe it was just mumblin'.

BigD responds:
Well, the Bible is God's word for us today. It speaks to my heart and soul. Are you saying that God's only mumbles in your Bible?

When I see that all the events that started in Acts 2:15-20 are yet unfulfilled, then I come up with the conclusion that those days of prophesy have been interrupted. That is a "no brainer."
------------------------------------

BigD posted:
Just because there are modern inventions that are available that are capable for the "mark" of the beast to know who is buying and selling doesn't mean that they will be used during the Tribulation. When the Tribulation happens, there may be even better methods of doing it then what we have today.

Evangelist responds:
Yes...there might be....and we might be knocked out of orbit by a photon beam from the REAL Klingons, too.

BigD replies:
My My, what great insight you have.
---------------------------------------

BigD posted:
Yes China does have a 200,000,000 man Army. Who is it fighting today. They aren't doing anything to fulfill the prophesy in the book of the Revelation. I'm not saying they won't. The 200,000,000 million man Army could also be made up of group of nations that belong to the UN or those nations in the Common Market of Europe. I haven't read about China in the book of Revelation.

Evangelist responds:
Rofl. Biiiiiiig Rofl.  Surely your bible contains the phrase "Kings of the East", doesn't it? Oh...sorry.....if it doesn't say China, then they must not be there. And the same would then apply to the Common Market, right? And Russia?

BigD replies:
You got me on that one.
------------------------------------------

BigD answers:
If the recorded sermons and writings of the early church fathers and leaders wrote by inspiration of God, then I believe God would have seen to it that those writings would be in the Bible. I go by the Church history of the Bible.

Evangelist responded:
Which said history ended in 95 AD.  So nothing has happened since? Nothing that anybody has said since then makes any difference to you? If that's the case, then why are you an Act's 9'er? Why not an Act's 2'ish? Even better, why not just a plain old Scofield/Darby Dispy? Surely as a pretrib/premil you like what Ephraem had to say...don't you?

BigD replies:
What the Bible contains is ALL that God wanted us to know about His will. I have never said or implied that what has happened in past history means nothing to me. It is just that I don't look to past history, outside the Bible, for God's will in my life. Past history said that the world was flat too, but we know better today. Past Chruch history to many also said that Israel would never again be a nation, and that the Chruch today is spiritual Israel and would reap all the blessing promised to the nation of Israel. I know that for a fact because that I was taught in the "christian school."  No, I do not look to Church history outside the Bible for my Christian beliefs and walk.
---------------------------------------

BigD posted:
I hate to keep repeating myself, but you haven't SHOWN ME were I am wrong. You only tell me what you believe.

Evangelist responds:
ROFL....I think you're the one who keeps saying "IMHO", along with making reference to events as factual without showing how.

BigD replies:
As I have said before, "IMHO" means that is what I believe the Bible teaches. Lets compare the amount of Scriptural references that I posted to qualify what I have said and the amount of Scriptural references you have used.
-------------------------------------

BigD replies:
When I use the expression "IMHO", I as saying that is what the Bible teaches.

Evangelist comes back:
Then it would behoove you to begin posting actual scriptures without inserting your own words or interpretation.

BigD says:
Will do. I'm then counting on you to do the same. Don't require of me anything that you won't do.
--------------------------------------

BigD asks:
What events have I refered to as factual without showing how?

Evangelist answers:
As noted above, your contention that the tribulation actually began, and then was parenthesized. State a date, state the supporting scripture, and resolve it with Daniel et al.

BigD responds:
My contention comes from what Peter said in Acts 2:15-20. He is quoting Joel 2:28-32 which is speaking of the 70th week of Daniel.  You have not SHOWN me what Peter or Joel was speaking of. Peter is saying "THIS IS THAT" which is spoken of by the prophet Joes, vs 16. In verse 17, Peter is quoting Joel who was speaking of the "last day" that were beginning to appear at Pentecost.
-------------------------------------------

Evangelist asks:
I'm not quite clear on what you're saying here. Are you saying that what Jesus said was NOT a prophecy, or are you saying that this event was not spoken of by any of the OT prophets?

If it is the first, then all I can say is.....??????

If the second, please read Dan. 9:26

BigD answers:
I am saying it is the first. PLEASE SHOW ME the OT prophesy that was fulfilled in AD 70.

Evangelist replies:
Methinks you may have a bit of problem reading. Jesus made a prophetic statement, circa 32/33 AD concerning the temple. It parallels the prophecy given by Daniel.  The prophecy came to pass in 70 AD.

Since you chose option 1 (the first), then you must not consider the words of Jesus to be inspired, holy or prophetic, in which case you need to do a serious rethinking of your position in Him.

BigD responds:
What Jesus said in Matthew 24:2 cannot be found in prophesy or the book of Daniel. Again I request SHOW ME.

I HAVE NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED THAT I CONSIDERED THE WORDS OF JESUS NOT BEING INSPIRED. YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO CREATE A STRAW DUMMY.
-----------------------------------------------------

BigD answers:
Num. 21:8-9  "And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

John 12:32-33 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

HOW did that draw a parallel that Jesus drew from it?

John 3:13,14 does have a reference to Numbers 21:8-9.

The purpose of the cross was unknown during OT times (1Cor2:7,8). Yes, we can see it now because of hind site.

Evangelist responds:
I think you've answered your own question.

BigD replies:
I was just point out to you that John 3:13,14 was more of a parrallel to Numbers 21:8-9 then John a2:32-33.
---------------------------------------------
Couldn't sleep, so this is the best way to make the night go away.

Be back in a week.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and

[BigD]

I have found the following very interesting when I compare Isaiah 61:1-2 with Luke 4:17-21:

Isaiah 61
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 4
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

You will notice in Luke 4, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 61:1,2 almost in its entirety. When you read the account in Luke 4, pay particular notice where Jesus stopped reading Isaiah 61, and then closed the book.

Had Jesus read on through "and the day of vengeance of our God," He would not have been able to say, as He did in vs 21, "...This day is this scripture fulfilled in you ears." That particular phrase happens to be the Tribulation period, and it hadn't started yet when Jesus spoke those words in Luke 4.

Even today, it is still the "acceptable year of the LORD". However, "the day of vengeance of our God" has not yet been fulfilled. It still awaits future fulfillment.

Yes, it did start in Acts 2:15-20, but was interrupted by this dispensation of grace. This dispensation of grace is a (parenthetical) period within the dispensation of the Law which began with Moses and was interrupted when God set the nation of Israel aside, "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rms11:25), which is the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

Even though the dispensation of grace cannot be found in prophesy, I can look back and see a place where it fits in.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Shammu]

You know, I should have placed this thread in debate Big D. Thats what you have been doing, is debating this thread. You now have me confused, and fustrated. I am just a simple man, not a debater.

[Brother Love]

BigD your doing wonderful, keep up the good teaching Brother







<))><

[BigD]

You know, I should have placed this thread in debate Big D. Thats what you have been doing, is debating this thread. You now have me confused, and fustrated. I am just a simple man, not a debater.

Dream Weaver:
My intend on this thread was not to confuse or fustrate anyone. Forgive me if I did.

I too am jsut a "simple man" that enjoys studying the Bible. My postings represent what I do believe the Bible teaches. However, I do enjoy discussing different views of Biblical Doctrine.

Previously I was a Calvinist but became confused and fustrated when I read the Bible and it didn't jive with what I believed the Bible was teaching. My pastors and teachers only gave me "Chruch Doctrine" answers to my many questions. The were like polititians who give you answers but never answer your question.

It had caused me to go unchurched for far too many years and I even had to quit reading the Bible for fear of going crazy.

It was only when I was shown that all the Bible is FOR ME but not all TO ME. I no longer try to take the promises to Isreal and its hope of an earthly kingdom, but NOW I can see the blessings that I presently have IN CHRIST, and that I am already blessed with all spiritual blessing in heaven and one day will go to my home IN heaven. While here upon the earth, I am an ambassador for Chirst. I am here as a representative of my Heavenly Government, with God on the Throne and Jesus seated at His right hand.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

[BigD]

BigD your doing wonderful, keep up the good teaching Brother

<:)))><

I appreciate your support Borther Love.

God Bless you.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[asaph]

This is all very interesting. As saints we should be watching and waiting for His appearing (perousia). We know that antichrist is coming but his coming is simply an indication that the coming of our Lord Jesus is near. Once we see the man of sin standing in the temple proclaiming himself to be God we can be sure that the time is near. That day and hour of Christ's appearing no one knows.
Having said this I think it is good for you to know the teachings of the pre wrath rapture. I invite you to check it out. Go to: http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes.html
I believe that Christians should not divide over this issue but be Bereans and search the bible to see if these things are true. I have done a lot of research myself having read all sides of the issue and studied the Bible myself but there are still questions that go unanswered for now. I know Jesus will show us things to come as we draw closer to the end, so let us be patient with each other and allow Him to unfold truth as we go along.
God bless,
asaph