Are We in the End Times, Prophetic Signs

[Jemidon2004]

6.        The Bible gives us over 50 descriptions about the people at the time of the end. These fit thepeople of today perfectly, but did not fit the people of fifty years ago. Here are some:  
     A.   Some would depart from the faith and go into devil worship-1 Tim 4:1. “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.” This is perfect.
    B.   People would mock about the last days and not believe-2 Pe 3:3 “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promis of his coming? For since the fathers  fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of time. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:” Jude 18 says it this way “How they that told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their on ungodly lusts.”
    C.   People would become lovers of themselves-2 Tim 3:1,2. “Know this that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedienct to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away!” Remember the TV commercials—"I do it for me"?
    D.   People would be disobeying their parents-2 Tim 3:1,2.
    E.   People would be grateful for nothing-2 Tim 3:1,2.
    F.   Homosexuality would increase-Lk 17:28,30; ref Gen 19:5; Ro 1:24,26,27.
    G.   People would be without self-control in sex-2 Tim 3:1,2,6; Rev 9:21, Lk 17:28,30; Jude 7. Is this not the great sex generation?
    H.   People would love pleasures more than God-2 Tim 3:1,2,4. This is true. Shall we go on a picnic, watch football, or sleep. Church?—we can go another time. Our American motto "In God we trust" has become a joke. Remember, these were all predicted centuries ago as part of the signs that we are at the time of the end.\
    7. There would be weapons that could destroy the world-
Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Rev 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 9:18
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths
Zech 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Malachi 4:1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
KJV
Incredibly, this prophecy was written in the days of spears and arrows, yet today it is true.  That’s 7 out of 7.
    Note: It is estimated that the combined nuclear arsenals of the USA and Russia (as of the year 2002) could kill every living thing on earth 6 times over.

    8. The Gospel must be published in all the world-
Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the Kingdome shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; then shall the end come.
 This seemingly impossible prophecy was written when there was no printing press, but today it is true. That's 8 out of 8.
    Note: In this last generation, to our knowledge, the Gospel is being
published (or is about to be published) in the primary language of every nation of the world or "among all nations." In addition, the Gospel is available by short-wave radio nearly everywhere in the world.
     9. In the "latter days" when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-
Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16. Incredible. That’s 9 out of 9.
2Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
 Note: How could the Bible have foretold the location of this nation, facts about its military, and even the time period it would come to pass and tell what nations would be allied with Russia? As was already said in Lk 24:25-O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN.

    10. There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is astounding. How could the Bible have told the location of a nation and given such a huge figure regarding the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure. That’s 10 out of 10.
Rev 16:12
12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 9:16-17
16And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
11. There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is an exact description of the European Economic Community today (the EEC), which has already adopted the one-currency system for many of their member nations. The Euro, as it is called, has been introduced and accepted by many countries of the world. It is written, IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS (these nations, which is now) SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM-Dan 2:44. That’s 11 out of 11.  We have just reached the point that seemed impossible—11 perfect predictions made thousands of years ago—with God nothing is impossible.  Certainly, at this point, even the biggest skeptic should see the Bible is true, there is a God, and we are nearing the time of the end. The times spoken up in the Bible are here.

[Jemidon2004]

Now tell me, which of you can make 11 predictions about 2000 years in the future and include the rebirth of a specific nation and exactly how it would be reborn. Include specific nations that would exist and certain nations that would be allied together, and the exact size of a nation’s army. Include what the people and church would be like. Also include the names of actual cities and name certain crops and fruit trees that would exist. Do eleven straight prophecies and be exactly correct on every single one. The Bible not only does this eleven times, but hundreds of times with absolute, perfect accuracy.  That is the beauty of it. None of us can do that. Only the Bible can. It is estimated that a person had a 1 in 8x10 to the 63rd power of doing that. You have a better chance at winning the lottery. Like that is going to happen.
·   Now the next thing that’s going to happen, and you don’t have to be a prophet or anything to see this one, is Christ the Lord is going to come back and Rapture His true Church. His Children. So my question to you is are you ready. Will you be ready so that when Jesus comes and says “Let’s Roll” you will be able to go with Him?   See Jesus on the Cross at Calvary for us. Envision this and use your imagination. Watch with your mind’s eye. The medical world, to this day still says that the crucifixion is still the worst method of torture and death ever to be invented. Imagine that. Jesus Christ, because He loved you and I suffered the worst death in the world. The greek word for love is Agape which means unconditional love. His love is still unconditional to this very day and will never die. It was because of His love for you, He suffered through the most gruesome pain and death, all for you and me. He loves you and wants to live inside of you. He wants you to depend on Him and love Him back with the same love and grace that He has extended to you. You see all it took to bridge the Gap between God and us was with a crown of thorns, 2 boards and 3 nails and the Blood of Jesus. The gift of salvation is His free gift to you. It’s your choice whether to accept it or not. It’s like my mom tells me sometimes, there ain’t nothing free in this world, and I look at her and say “Jesus’ gift is free.”

now keep in mind...this was written a year ago so i still have quite a bit to add to it...i hope it made sense...cause i ain't got time to re-read it...i just gotdone with a bio project that about whooped my tail... good night and God Bless.

[nChrist]

AMEN BROTHER JEMIDON2004!!!!

The Holy Bible isn't just a beautiful literary masterpiece. It is the WORD OF GOD in all perfection. I love to study the Holy Bible, and I really enjoyed your posts.

THANKS BROTHER!

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Shammu]

AMEN!! Thank you for posting your sermon, Jemidon. I learned a few things I didn't know, thank you.
Your sermon is................. WONDERFUL!!

For in the Lord I trust.
DW

[BigD]

Jemidon2004
I have read the first posting on your sermon, but have not read the rest as yet. You have put in a great deal of work into it, and for a 17 year old to do that, you have done a lot of studying. For that, I commend you.

While I was reading it, you brought to my mind the teachings of Jack Van Impe. You, like he, like to put today's happening into OT prophesy and the book of the Revelation. To do that, you must take ONLY selected verses to made them fit.

In my possession I have a booklet written by Jack Van Impe that he wrote in the early 1970's. We had gas shortages and extremely high inflation and interest rates. He equated them with Germany's financial problems during WWII and how they fit in prophesy and the "end time." Based on that, he made predictions, that fit OT prophesy, that would come happen in the 1980's. Well, they never happened. He is still saying many of the same things today that he said back then and how they are fulfilling OT prophesy. Interesting listening but that is all I get from him.

When I read the book of the Revelation, I find that what John is writing about is history to him, but still future to us. He is shown the thing that must come to pass during the "last days"/"end times." Everything he see, is the fulfillment of everything that is written about in prophesy. Prophesy ONLY applies to the nation of Israel. I cannot find the Body of Christ in it anywhere. In order to find the Church for today in the book of  the Revelation, one has to figure out a way to do that that isn't Scriptural.

When I study prophesy, I cannot find the dispensation of grace, or the Chruch, the Body of Christ. It was a mystery/secret that God revealed to the Apostle Paul, AFTER God set the nation of Israel aside.  So, God is not dealing with Israel presently, but is dealing with all mankind on equal footing and without distinction. We are "The New Creation", the "one new man" of Epehsians 2:15. IT CANNOT BE FOUND IN PROPHESY OR THE BOOK OF THE REVELATION. During the happenings of the book of the Revelation, the Chruch, the Body of Christ will be in heaven, therefore, we have no place in the book of the Revelation. We are not there yet.

Keep in mind that the  "last days"/"end times" include from the Tribulation through the mellennial reign of Christ.

The OT prophest saw all the particulars of Christ's 1st and 2nd coming, but often preceived them as one event.

In Luke 4:18-20 "Jesus said "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, TO PREACH THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD. And he closed the book..." Vs 21 "...This day is this scripture fulfilled in your eyes.

Jesus is reading from Isaiah 61:1-2. "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the open of the prison to them that are bound; TO PROCLAIM THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD, AND THE DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD; to comfort all that mourn."

In Luke 4, notice the point at which Jesus "closed the book". It was between the phrase "TO PREACH THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD" and "THE DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD".

Had Jesus read the 2nd phrase, He would not have been able to say "...This day is this scripture fulfilled in your eyes." Because "THE DAY OF VENGEANCE
OF OUR GOD" (the Tribulation) wasn't happening yet. It is still future. So only part of Isaiah 61:2 has already been fulfilled and we are still waiting for the fulfillment of the remainder of that verse.

IMHO, the dispensation of grace fits right between the 1st and 2nd phrase of Isaiah 61:2. Also, you say that Isaiah 68:8 was fulfilled in 1948. Well I don't think so. If you continue your study in Isaiah from chapter 61 on, you will find that it is only speaking of the restoration of Isreal during the Tribulation period and by the time we get to chapter 68, we are in the millennium. NOT 1948.

Again, when I study the book of Ezekiel, which you reference, It is not talking about anything that will happen during the dispensation of grace, but will happen in "the end time"/"the last days."

When Paul speaks of the "last days" he is talking about the last day of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, prior to the rapture. The days we are presently living in. When he refers to the "trump of God" in 1Thess4:16 he is not referring to the last trumpet of the book of Revelation. The book of the Revelation was written by John in Approx AD 90 and Paul wrote his letter to the Thessalonians in approx AD 54. Paul was no longer on the sene when John wrote his book.

Before I go any further, CORRECT ME if I am wrong. I am still in the learning mode.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

[2nd Timothy]

AMEN! Jemidon2004

Great Sermon!

Grace and Peace!

[Jemidon2004]

Hiya Big...

i just read your post so i'm gonna take a minute to clear a few things up. There's a major difference between Impe and me. Jack tends to drift more toward catholic doctrine when it concerns Prophecy, I don't...i take it straight from God's Word. another thing is Impe makes predictions...i disagree with making predictions because with prophecy we cannot always be 100% sure what the form or event will spark the fulfillment. now keep in mind that I wrote that about a year and a half ago. It was a lot of studying, but it isn't nearly what I have now that i would like to add to it. John was writing down the Revelation of Christ. When He includes the churches...back then he talks about seven actual churchs...but if you pay close attention to church history you can find many similarities between the attitudes and the works of the seven churchs and the different phases the Church (Believers) have passed through. and I honestly believe that the stage we're in is VERY similar to that of the state of the church at Laodicea as you have read in my previous post. Another thing....God IS dealing with Israel as a physical nation, but not as a Spiritual nation yet. He's dealing with bringing the Jews back to Israel and the physical aspect of the nation, not the Spiritual state. I believe He will deal with the spiritual state of Israel after the Tribulation begins..not before hand. So yes God IS dealing with Israel, just not on a spiritual level...YET. lol. I made a mistake in saying that it was fulfilled completely in 1948. It was only partially fulfilled. Israel was brought forth to be a nation overnight practicallly. Also remember, that there were to be birth pangs before the end. I believe we are seeing these birth pangs, BUT the world isn't seeing the Trib. Period yet because the Rapture hasn't occured and antichrist hasn't signed the covenant with many for one week. You made mention of Paul using the phrase last days as speaking of the last days of the Church, i agree, but again, one must entertain the thought that John could have used the same meaning...I can't say 100% that i'm right on this, but i think i remember someone commenting that Paul and John both used the same word for "last days" or "beginning of end of time" Now i could be wrong, but for some reason that comes to memory...i reckon i best get back to studying and see what I can find out...i'll look into the greek and get back to ya on that. well i've about run out of things to say so i'm gonna head out...we got a pep rally at the school here in a little while...God Bless.

In His Service,
Joshua


oh yea...p.s. TY for the encouragement DW and BEEPS. I appreciate it...Like i said that stuff was written about a year and a half ago, but the message is still the same...He's coming and He's coming soon...(For those of you who like to start something...I AIN"T PUTTING A TIME TABLE ON IT!!!) Just thought i'd clear that up.

God Bless

[BigD]

Jemidon2004:

BigD posted:
"While I was reading it, you brought to my mind the teachings of Jack Van Impe. You, like he, like to put today's happening into OT prophesy and the book of the Revelation. To do that, you must take ONLY selected verses to made them fit.

When I compared you to Jack Van Impe, I was only comparing you to the fact that you use "selected verses" to prove you point. You are not quoting them in their proper context.

You must ALWAYS keep in mind that John is writing about events that take place during the Tribulation. Well, during the Tribulation period, the Chruch, the Body of Christ, will have been raptured to heaven. So how could John be writing to the Chruch, the Body of Christ. Doesn't he address the 7 churchs that are in Asia (Revelation 1:4)? The Body of Christ certainly won't be in Asia. Also, John is writing by Divine inspiration, and John is actually seeing the "last days" of prophesy.

Israel is presently in a "set aside" condition. It is a temporary condition "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25). The fulness of the Gentiles is the rapture of the Chruch. THEN "And so all Isreal will be saved; as it is written..." (vs 26).

That should tell you that God is not dealing with national Israel at this time. Also, God's promise to Abram is that the nations of the earth will be blessed THROUGH his seed - Israel.

We Gentiles are not being blessed THROUGH the nation of Israel, but we are being blessed in spite of their rejection of their King and His Kingdom. Is Isaiah 42:6 being fulfilled today? How about Isaiah 49:6? Is Isaiah 60:3 being fulfilled?
Are we living in the day of Zechariah 8:23? I don't think so.

Today, in this dispensation of grace, we are not being blessed because of the Jews as a nation. We are being blessed through the preaching of the gospel of the grace of God, according to the revelation of the mystery, that was revelated to the Apostle Paul. BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH and NOT UNDER THE LAWS OF MOSES.

It was man, (through the UN), not God, who is responsible for the present state of the Jewish nation, and there are Jews returning to the Land. However, when I read the OT prophets it says that God will restore the Land to Israel. When God does restore the land to Israel it will be in accordance with Genesis 15:18 "...from the river of Egypt (Nile) unto the great river, the river Euphartes." IMHO God is not giving it back to them by bits and pieces, or having to negotiate it with the Palistiannians. My God is much greater then that.

When God restores Isreal Jeremiah 31:31-34 will be fulfilled and God will be dealing with Israel again both physically and spiritually. The promise to Abram will then be fulfilled.

John and Paul may have used the same word for last days. That would not be a surprise to me. But, they are both speaking of different last days. Paul is speaking about times in the "last days" of this dispensation of grace, and John is speaking of the "last days" that will occur in the Tribulation and mellennial reign of Christ. Its the same words with the same meaning. They are just speaking of different last days.

Have been enjoying our exchange.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Evangelist]

BigD:

Let's try to apply a little logic and reason.

I think you'll agree that there are certain conditions spoken of in scripture that must be "in place", or at least partially fulfilled before the tribulation period actually begins.

One is that there will be a peace treaty signed between the antichrist and the nation of Israel.

For the nation to sign a peace treaty, it must exist.

That the nation of Israel now exists is a given....regardless of HOW it exists.

You try to apply the reasoning that it exists only because of a man (via the UN), and that it further does not encompass ALL of the land spoken of in Genesis.

God USED a man (many times) to accomplish chastisement and punishment of Israel, just as He used men to restore Israel after their punishment was over. Examples are Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Nehemiah and Artaxerxes. You'll also recall that it took Nehemiah a number of years to complete his task of restoration, which certainly indicates that God's prophetic word can, and will be done over a period of time that is NOT subject to our interpretation.

While Israel may have been "set aside" during the times of the Gentiles, they have neither been ignored, nor forgotten.

I don't believe anyone here has presented the idea that we are currently in the tribulation period...ONLY that there are certain events, verifiable in prophecy, that are in flux and movement toward that final stage.

You seem to present the notion that NONE of the OT prophecies can possibly come to pass, or even begin to come to pass, until the tribulation begins. I would submit that that is not only unreasonable, but goes a long way to attempting to put God in a box, bound from accomplishing His purpose in whatever way He sees fit.  I really don't think you believe that, but the presentation certainly leaves that impression.

Finally, in re other OT prophecies, you said "BRING IT ON". I would ask "why?", if your approach is to categorically deny that any OT prophecies could possibly be fulfilled during this dispensation of grace?

Remember, if you will, the words of Jesus when He told His disciples who had been admiring the Temple that it would be torn down. That was in roughly 32/33 AD.  Paul, who introduced (by your reckoning) the Gospel of Grace and this current dispensation, died in roughly 64 AD.

The Temple was torn down in 70 AD.  An 'OT' prophecy (given under the dispensation of the law) fulfilled 32 years later (under the dispensation of grace).

It is immaterial to the subject at hand as to whether or not any of the OT prophets saw, knew, or understood anything at all about the dispensation of Grace....certainly it would be fair to assume that God did, and He is the one who told the prophets what to say... He did NOT require them to understand, and obviously didn't give them revelation concerning it....but that in no way compromises the revelation, the prophecy, or its ultimate fulfillment.

BTW...the rending of the veil in the Temple. As Paul put it, it was the "tearing down of the wall of partition" between man and God, between Jew and Gentile, making access to God personally available to everyone. The "making of twain one for Himself". (Eph. 2:12-19)

[BigD]

Evangelist posted:
Let's try to apply a little logic and reason.

I think you'll agree that there are certain conditions spoken of in scripture that must be "in place", or at least partially fulfilled before the tribulation period actually begins.

BigD responds:
IMHO the ONLY thing that must happen before the Tribulation that started in Acts 2:15-20, and was interrupted with the setting aside of the nation Israel, is the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.
------------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
One is that there will be a peace treaty signed between the antichrist and the nation of Israel.

BigD responds:
There was not a peace treaty with the anti-christ signed when the Tribulation started, So why does there have to be one when it resumes?
-------------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
For the nation to sign a peace treaty, it must exist.

BigD responds:
The nation of Isreal does exist now, but it is not restored Isreal. Also, after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, God will be dealing the sealed 144,000  mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8.
------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
That the nation of Israel now exists is a given....regardless of HOW it exists.

BigD responds:
Agreed.
-------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
You try to apply the reasoning that it exists only because of a man (via the UN), and that it further does not encompass ALL of the land spoken of in Genesis.

BigD responds:
It's a fact that the nation of Isreal exist because of the UN. It is not the restored Israel of prophesy and does not encompass the land that God promised Abram.
--------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
God USED a man (many times) to accomplish chastisement and punishment of Israel, just as He used men to restore Israel after their punishment was over. Examples are Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Nehemiah and Artaxerxes. You'll also recall that it took Nehemiah a number of years to complete his task of restoration, which certainly indicates that God's prophetic word can, and will be done over a period of time that is NOT subject to our interpretation.

BigD responds:
I don't really have a problem with you above statement. I will just say, when God blessed Isreal; it was when Isreal did God directed. Isreal was punished when they strayed from God. Yes God did use man to fulfill his punishment.
----------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
While Israel may have been "set aside" during the times of the Gentiles, they have neither been ignored, nor forgotten.

BigD responds:
You are certainly right when you say that God has not forgotten Isreal. He remembers His promises to them and He will keep them. However, no promises that God made to Isreal are being fulfilled today, other then the fact that God gave the "slumbering eyes."
-----------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
I don't believe anyone here has presented the idea that we are currently in the tribulation period...ONLY that there are certain events, verifiable in prophecy, that are in flux and movement toward that final stage.

BigD responds:
Without going back to check, I do believe that some were posting that OT prophesies were being fulfilled today in this dispensation of grace. My contention is that they are not. However, there are events happening today that will lead to the fulfillment of prophesy.
----------------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
You seem to present the notion that NONE of the OT prophecies can possibly come to pass, or even begin to come to pass, until the tribulation begins. I would submit that that is not only unreasonable, but goes a long way to attempting to put God in a box, bound from accomplishing His purpose in whatever way He sees fit.  I really don't think you believe that, but the presentation certainly leaves that impression.

BigD posted:
My contention is this. There are no OT pophesies being fulfilled in this dispensation of grace. The things that are prophesied in that OT that pertain to the "last days"/"end times", will happen in the "last days"/"end times". WE ARE NOT IN THOSE DAYS. The "last days"/"endtimes" started in Acts 2:15-20. They were interrupted. They will not resume again UNTIL the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

I hate to keep repeating myself, but you haven't SHOWN ME were I am wrong. You only tell me what you believe.
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Evangelist posted:
Finally, in re other OT prophecies, you said "BRING IT ON". I would ask "why?", if your approach is to categorically deny that any OT prophecies could possibly be fulfilled during this dispensation of grace?

BigD responds:
Well you seemed to indicate that there were many more OT prophesied that were fulfilled in this dispensation; when you really haven't shown me even one. So, If there are more OT prophesies that you believe were fulfilled in this dispensation, I envite you to "bring them on."
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Evangelist posted:
Remember, if you will, the words of Jesus when He told His disciples who had been admiring the Temple that it would be torn down. That was in roughly 32/33 AD.  Paul, who introduced (by your reckoning) the Gospel of Grace and this current dispensation, died in roughly 64 AD.

The Temple was torn down in 70 AD.  An 'OT' prophecy (given under the dispensation of the law) fulfilled 32 years later (under the dispensation of grace).

BigD responds:
I don't ever recall reading in prophesy what Jesus said in Matthew 24:1-3 about the Temple being torn down. If I am wrong in that area, PLEASE correct me. Yes, what Jesus said did happen in 70 AD.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
It is immaterial to the subject at hand as to whether or not any of the OT prophets saw, knew, or understood anything at all about the dispensation of Grace....certainly it would be fair to assume that God did, and He is the one who told the prophets what to say... He did NOT require them to understand, and obviously didn't give them revelation concerning it....but that in no way compromises the revelation, the prophecy, or its ultimate fulfillment.

BigD responds:
The dispensation of grace was not an after thought, but what God planned it before the world was created, and kept it a secret/mystery until it was revealed to the Aposlte Paul. It was His secret weapon to defeat satan.

One cannot find the cross and what it will do in any OT prophesies. 1Cor2:7,8 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdome, which God ordained before the world (before creation) unto our glory: Which none of the princes of the world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory."

It was the cross that defeated satan. Had he know that the cross would seal his doom, he would have "worked like the devil" to keep Christ from the cross.
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Evangelist posted:
BTW...the rending of the veil in the Temple. As Paul put it, it was the "tearing down of the wall of partition" between man and God, between Jew and Gentile, making access to God personally available to everyone. The "making of twain one for Himself". (Eph. 2:12-19)

BigD responds:
I cannot find anywhere in Scripture where the Temple veil was the middle wall of partition between the Jew and Gentile. That wall of partition was in place prior to the Temple ever being built. Hope you can come up with better "proof text" then that. Even after the veil was wrent, it was still unlawful for a Jew to go to one of another country. This was confirmed by Peter in Acts 10:28. That was at least 5-10 years AFTER the cross.

Looking forward to you reply.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

[Brother Love]

Brother BIGD, you get"TWO"Thumbs UP

             AMEN!!!!





          WHAT DO YOU SEE?

[BigD]

JESUS

THANKS brother.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Evangelist]

IMHO the ONLY thing that must happen before the Tribulation that started in Acts 2:15-20, and was interrupted with the setting aside of the nation Israel, is the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

I'm glad you said IMHO.

There was not a peace treaty with the anti-christ signed when the Tribulation started, So why does there have to be one when it resumes?

Since the tribulation (aka the time of Jacob's trouble, etc.) is conditioned upon the treaty (see Dan. 9:27), it would then appear that any supposition on your part that the tribulation began when you say it did is a false supposition and is NOT based upon scripture.   

The nation of Isreal does exist now, but it is not restored Isreal. Also, after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, God will be dealing the sealed 144,000  mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8.
Israel regathered is Israel restored (at least in part). That's called a fait accompli. What does the sealing of 144,000 have to do with this?
Evangelist posted:
That the nation of Israel now exists is a given....regardless of HOW it exists.

It's a fact that the nation of Isreal exist because of the UN. It is not the restored Israel of prophesy and does not encompass the land that God promised Abram.

There are a number of times during history when Israel did not occupy all of the lands promised to Abraham.....so? Does that then mean that they weren't Israel? I would guess, by this logic, that David was not really King of Israel for 17 years. Is that right?

I don't really have a problem with you above statement. I will just say, when God blessed Isreal; it was when Isreal did God directed. Isreal was punished when they strayed from God. Yes God did use man to fulfill his punishment.

Agreed. Simple and straightforward. God uses man to accomplish His purpose. While some may here think this is almost blasphemous, I'll venture to say it anyway. God used Hitler and Stalin to accomplish His purpose in re-awakening humanity to the existence of His chosen people, and by that awakening to further accomplish His purpose in beginning the movement to regather His people and re-establish Israel.  NOTE: I DID NOT say God CAUSED Hitler or Stalin to commit genocide....only that He USED their actions.  "ALL things work together for the good of them who love the LORD."

You are certainly right when you say that God has not forgotten Isreal. He remembers His promises to them and He will keep them. However, no promises that God made to Isreal are being fulfilled today, other then the fact that God gave the "slumbering eyes."

Key in on the word "being", as in: transitory, transitional, in the process of, etc.

BigD responds:
Without going back to check, I do believe that some were posting that OT prophesies were being fulfilled today in this dispensation of grace. My contention is that they are not. However, there are events happening today that will lead to the fulfillment of prophesy.

First, I'm not speaking for others....only myself. Second, your phraseology "there are events happening.....that will LEAD to....fullfillment..." is no different from saying that there are events happening that are PART OF the playing out, completion, or eventual fullfillment of those prophecies. NONE of the prophecies are going to magically and instantly appear as fulfilled in the blink of an eye (except for our translation..hehe).....they are an on-going process.

Just for a moment...let's take one small example, that being the "mark" of the beast, and buying/selling. At no time in recorded history has the ability, or technology of humankind been capable of allowing such a thing to come to pass until just a few years ago. While the "mark" has not been imposed as yet, the technology is now available, so that when the beast decides to impose it, it can be done.  True, the particular prophecy concerning the mark has NOT come to pass (it is still unfulfilled), the existence of the technology means that a small portion of the prophecy (causes them to take the mark so that no man can buy or sell without it) HAS been fulfilled.

Almost ALL prophecy is made up of a number of smaller segments...and some of those segments can, and are, either being fulfilled or ARE fulfilled.

Apply the same reasoning to the 200 million man army.  They haven't marched, but they are there...just waiting.

BigD posted:
My contention is this. There are no OT pophesies being fulfilled in this dispensation of grace. The things that are prophesied in that OT that pertain to the "last days"/"end times", will happen in the "last days"/"end times". WE ARE NOT IN THOSE DAYS. The "last days"/"endtimes" started in Acts 2:15-20. They were interrupted. They will not resume again UNTIL the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

Interesting.....try reading a little history. Up until roughly 350 AD, recorded sermons and writings of early church fathers and leaders made reference to "since we are in the last times," and other similar phraseology. It would seem that they considered themselves to be in the "last days."  Granted, though, that there is a distinction between "last days", or "end times" and "last days of the tribulation", or the "very end of the end times".

I hate to keep repeating myself, but you haven't SHOWN ME were I am wrong. You only tell me what you believe.

ROFL....I think you're the one who keeps saying "IMHO", along with making reference to events as factual without showing how.
Evangelist posted:

BigD responds:
I don't ever recall reading in prophesy what Jesus said in Matthew 24:1-3 about the Temple being torn down. If I am wrong in that area, PLEASE correct me. Yes, what Jesus said did happen in 70 AD.

Mat 24:1
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.(2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I'm not quite clear on what you're saying here. Are you saying that what Jesus said was NOT a prophecy, or are you saying that this event was not spoken of by any of the OT prophets?

If it is the first, then all I can say is.....

If the second, please read Dan. 9:26

BigD responds:
The dispensation of grace was not an after thought, but what God planned it before the world was created, and kept it a secret/mystery until it was revealed to the Aposlte Paul. It was His secret weapon to defeat satan.

One cannot find the cross and what it will do in any OT prophesies. 1Cor2:7,8 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdome, which God ordained before the world (before creation) unto our glory: Which none of the princes of the world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory."

It was the cross that defeated satan. Had he know that the cross would seal his doom, he would have "worked like the devil" to keep Christ from the cross.

Mostly, I agree....but OTOH, I find the cross amply present throughout the OT.....but of course, I have hindsight.  

There is, though.... Num. 21:8-9 cf. John 12:32-33.  Granted that Moses did not understand it, but that lack of understanding does not prevent the parallel that Jesus drew from it.

BigD responds:
I cannot find anywhere in Scripture where the Temple veil was the middle wall of partition between the Jew and Gentile. That wall of partition was in place prior to the Temple ever being built. Hope you can come up with better "proof text" then that. Even after the veil was wrent, it was still unlawful for a Jew to go to one of another country. This was confirmed by Peter in Acts 10:28. That was at least 5-10 years AFTER the cross.

"He who has eyes to see, let him see...he who has ears to hear, let him hear..."
You say that a "wall of partition was in place prior to the Temple ever being built."

Part of Gods original charge to Israel was to be a light unto the Gentiles, showing them the way to the one true God. It was the Israelites themselves who erected the "wall of partition" by their action and subversion of His law, and effectively separated mankind into two camps....those who could approach God (Israel) and those who could not (all others) UNLESS they came through the Jews.....and that predated the instructions to build even the tabernacle, much less the temple.

Even after the veil was rent, and at least 5-10 years after the cross, Peter dissembled.....did that make him right? Did that mean that such separation was still in effect in Gods eyes? Or does that mean that sinful misunderstanding man continued to misrepresent, misinterpret, and mishandle Gods will and Word?

38 years after the cross, it was still "unlawful" to walk more than so many paces on the Sabbath.  So?

[Reba]

Is it land that makes a nation?

Is it the blood line of the people?

When were the  Israelies  not a nation?

Will Israel become more of a nation if they aquireget all the land God gave to Abe?

 

[BigD]

Evangelist posted:
Let's try to apply a little logic and reason.

I think you'll agree that there are certain conditions spoken of in scripture that must be "in place", or at least partially fulfilled before the tribulation period actually begins.

BigD responds:
IMHO the ONLY thing that must happen before the Tribulation that started in Acts 2:15-20, and was interrupted with the setting aside of the nation Israel, is the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

Evangelist replies:
I'm glad you said IMHO.

BigD answers:
Can you name some other event that must happen prior to the rapture of the Church? Please give Scriptural support for your answer.

------------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
One is that there will be a peace treaty signed between the antichrist and the nation of Israel.

BigD responded:
There was not a peace treaty with the anti-christ signed when the Tribulation started, So why does there have to be one when it resumes?

Evangelist replied:
Since the tribulation (aka the time of Jacob's trouble, etc.) is conditioned upon the treaty (see Dan. 9:27), it would then appear that any supposition on your part that the tribulation began when you say it did is a false supposition and is NOT based upon scripture.  

BigD answers:`
Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days (Tribulation), saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and you young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will ppour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy;
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneith; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20.The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Peter at Pentecost is quoting Joel 2:28-32 almost word for word. Joel 2 is speaking of the 70th week of Dainel, the Tribulation. Here in Acts 2, the signs are beginning to appear.

There was no peace treaty with the anti-christ signed.

Don't bother to tell me that Peter was mistaken. Peter knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophesy. In Luke 24:45 we see that Jesus had opened up the understanding of the Scriptures (Old Testament Scriptures), prior to His returning to heaven. Also, Peter and the others, at Pentecost, were speaking "AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE" (Acts 2:4).

-------------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
For the nation to sign a peace treaty, it must exist.

BigD responds:
The nation of Isreal does exist now, but it is not restored Isreal. Also, after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, God will be dealing the sealed 144,000  mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8.

Evangelist replies:
Israel regathered is Israel restored (at least in part). That's called a fait accompli. What does the sealing of 144,000 have to do with this?

That the nation of Israel now exists is a given....regardless of HOW it exists.

BigD answers:
Jesus told the leaders of Israel in Matthew 22:43 "Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

In the Tribulation period we find that Isreal is represented by members of the 12 tribes. The sealed 144,000 of Revelation 7:4-8. There fruit is mentioned in vs 9.
------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
You try to apply the reasoning that it exists only because of a man (via the UN), and that it further does not encompass ALL of the land spoken of in Genesis.

BigD responds:
It's a fact that the nation of Isreal exist because of the UN. It is not the restored Israel of prophesy and does not encompass the land that God promised Abram.

Evangelist responds:
There are a number of times during history when Israel did not occupy all of the lands promised to Abraham.....so? Does that then mean that they weren't Israel? I would guess, by this logic, that David was not really King of Israel for 17 years. Is that right?

BigD answers:
In the OT when Isreal was driven from the land it was due to punishment. God did not discontinue His dealing with them as His favored people. During this dispensation of grace, God is not dealing with Isreal as His favored people or as a nation.

--------------------------------------------

Evangelist posted:
God USED a man (many times) to accomplish chastisement and punishment of Israel, just as He used men to restore Israel after their punishment was over. Examples are Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Nehemiah and Artaxerxes. You'll also recall that it took Nehemiah a number of years to complete his task of restoration, which certainly indicates that God's prophetic word can, and will be done over a period of time that is NOT subject to our interpretation.

BigD responds:
I don't really have a problem with you above statement. I will just say, when God blessed Isreal; it was when Isreal did God directed. Isreal was punished when they strayed from God. Yes God did use man to fulfill his punishment.

Evangelist replies:
Agreed. Simple and straightforward. God uses man to accomplish His purpose. While some may here think this is almost blasphemous, I'll venture to say it anyway. God used Hitler and Stalin to accomplish His purpose in re-awakening humanity to the existence of His chosen people, and by that awakening to further accomplish His purpose in beginning the movement to regather His people and re-establish Israel.  NOTE: I DID NOT say God CAUSED Hitler or Stalin to commit genocide....only that He USED their actions.  "ALL things work together for the good of them who love the LORD."

BigD answers:
I concur with what you have posted. However, God used man (UN) to restore the present nation of Israel. It still is not "restored Israel".
----------------------------------------------
Cont'd PART 2

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!Evangelist posted: