What Happened?

[sincereheart]

"People v. Ruggles

8 Johns. R. 290 N.Y. 1811
Kent, Ch. J. delivered the opinion of the Court. The offence charged is, that the defendant below did "wickedly, maliciously, and blasphemously utter, in the presence and hearing of divers good and christian people, these false, feigned, scandalous, malicious, wicked and blasphemous words, to wit, "Jesus Christ was a bastard, and his mother must be a whore;" and the single question is, whether this be a public offence by the law of the land. After conviction, we must intend that these words were uttered in a wanton manner, and, as they evidently import, with a wicked and malicious disposition, and not in a serious discussion upon any controverted point in religion. The language was blasphemous not only in a popular, but in a legal sense; for blasphemy, according to the most precise definitions, consists in maliciously reviling God, or religion, and this was reviling christianity through its author. (Emlyn's Preface to the State Trials, p. 8. See, also, Whitlock's Speech, State Trials, vol. 2, 273.) The jury have passed upon the intent or quo animo, and if those words spoken, in any case, will amount to a misdemeanor, the indictment is good.

Such words, uttered with such a disposition, were an offence at common law. In Taylor's case, (1 Vent. 293. 3 Keb. 607. Tremaine's Pleas of the Crown, 226. S. C.) the defendant was convicted upon information of speaking similar words, and the court of K. B. said, that christianity was parcel of the law, and to cast contumelious reproaches upon it, tended to weaken the foundation of moral obligation, and the efficacy of oaths. And in the case of Rex v. Woolston, (Str. 834. Fitzg. 64.) on a like conviction, the court said they would not suffer it to be debated whether defaming christianity in general was not an offence at common law, for that whatever strikes at the root of christianity, tends manifestly to the dissolution of civil government. But the court were careful to say, that they did not intend to include disputes between learned men upon particular controverted points. The same doctrine was laid down in the late case of The King v. Williams, for the publication of Paine's "Age of Reason," which was tried before Lord Kenyon, in July, 1797. The authorities show that blasphemy against God, and contumelious reproaches and profane ridicule of Christ or the Holy Scriptures, (which are equally treated as blasphemy,) are offences punishable at common law, whether uttered by words or writings. (Taylor's case, 1 Vent. 293. 4 Blacks. Com. 59. 1 Hawk. b. 1. c. 5. 1 East's P. C. 3. Tremaine's Entries, 225. Rex v. Doyley.) The consequences may be less extensively pernicious in the one case than in the other, but in both instances, the reviling is still an offence, because it tends to corrupt the morals of the people, and to destroy good order. Such offences have always been considered independent of any religious establishment or the rights of the church. They are treated as affecting the essential interests of civil society.


The Founders' Constitution
Volume 5, Amendment I (Religion), Document 62
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions62.html
The University of Chicago Press

[JudgeNot]

sincereheart
Interesting history lesson - thanks.  
How do you think those kinds of ‘common law’ actually affected those under the rules?  The text indicates “blasphemous words…tended to weaken the foundation of moral obligation”.  Was that true then, and is it true today?  I tend to believe so, but what can be done and still be considerate of free speech?  (I have my ideas about that, but I’ll keep them to myself for now.)  
Who, at that time, defined blaspheme?  (I’m guessing it was the Church of England?)  Do you think the law was an infringement of free speech?  At the time, they probably likened it to “yelling fire in a crowded building”.
Who in our time would define blaspheme?  Muslims certainly take advantage of their narrow religious laws to kill (murder, in my opinion) whomever they deem unfavorable in their god’s eye.
Can we ever hope to return to laws of decency in light of new laws lauding sodomy as “good and natural”?
We are so far from those days – can the world hold out much longer?  Considering our current rate of decay, I really doubt it.

Thanks for making me think.
Yours in Christ,
JN

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Sincereheart,

In America, you will easily find millions of events that clearly show what America was and what it has now become. I can easily cite many examples in law enforcement, especially since it changes by almost the minute.

In Oklahoma, adultery is still on the books as a felony, but that statute has not been enforced in Oklahoma since the 60s. Certain sexual acts are listed on the books as unnatural acts and acts against nature. These acts are identical to those listed in the Holy Bible, and they are a felony. Most of them have not been enforced, except for public offenses, since the 80s. In 1976, profanity in public was a common and regularly enforced ordinance that usually resulted in a hefty fine and a few days in jail. In the 80s, the state and local ordinances were changed and limited to in the presence of women. In the late 80s, the state and local ordinances were changed and limited to in the presence of children. Today, that is a difficult offense to get filed unless it results in a fight.

What you are actually seeing used to be a slow and gradual erosion of all that was decent, moral, and Biblical in America, starting in the late 40s and early 50s. The erosion gathered speed in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. The erosion started to become a mudslide in the 90s, and it has become a flood since the year 2000. At the current rate of erosion, America will be a cesspool of filth and evil by the year 2010.

Christians still have a few champions trying to slow the flood, but they are being run over, made fun of, and usually are cast aside. It appears to me that Christians will be persecuted more and more with every passing day. We are supposed to shut up, especially in public, and retreat to our homes and churches. However, our homes and churches are also being assaulted by every imaginable evil. Some of the evil is easy to recognize, and some of the evil is veiled in deceit with very clever tricks of the devil. The tolerance of Christians to evil has risen during the same time frame to the extent that the Christians of the 50s and 60s would not recognize us. We are bombarded 24 hours a day from TV, news, and other media that has slowly desensitized our strong and loud objections into quiet and timid whimpering.

In short, America has turned its back on Almighty God and is becoming a nation of evil.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[sincereheart]

sincereheart
Interesting history lesson - thanks.  
How do you think those kinds of ‘common law’ actually affected those under the rules?  The text indicates “blasphemous words…tended to weaken the foundation of moral obligation”.  Was that true then, and is it true today?  I tend to believe so, but what can be done and still be considerate of free speech?  (I have my ideas about that, but I’ll keep them to myself for now.)  
Who, at that time, defined blaspheme?  (I’m guessing it was the Church of England?)  Do you think the law was an infringement of free speech?  At the time, they probably likened it to “yelling fire in a crowded building”.
Who in our time would define blaspheme?  Muslims certainly take advantage of their narrow religious laws to kill (murder, in my opinion) whomever they deem unfavorable in their god’s eye.
Can we ever hope to return to laws of decency in light of new laws lauding sodomy as “good and natural”?
We are so far from those days – can the world hold out much longer?  Considering our current rate of decay, I really doubt it.

Thanks for making me think.
Yours in Christ,
JN

It has been making me think, too. I can't answer all the questions you asked, which I'm guessing was more a matter of you thinking 'aloud' anyway.  
But later it does say:

The free, equal, and undisturbed, enjoyment of religious opinion, whatever it may be, and free and decent discussions on any religious subject, is granted and secured; but to revile, with malicious and blasphemous contempt, the religion professed by almost the whole community, is an abuse of that right.

I guess my biggest question is; Where and when did we let the Christian foundation go?   We had a missionary to the Phillippines speak recently and he said that America is now the 3rd largest mission field.  

[sincereheart]

Oklahoma Howdy to Sincereheart,

In America, you will easily find millions of events that clearly show what America was and what it has now become. I can easily cite many examples in law enforcement, especially since it changes by almost the minute.

In Oklahoma, adultery is still on the books as a felony, but that statute has not been enforced in Oklahoma since the 60s. Certain sexual acts are listed on the books as unnatural acts and acts against nature. These acts are identical to those listed in the Holy Bible, and they are a felony. Most of them have not been enforced, except for public offenses, since the 80s. In 1976, profanity in public was a common and regularly enforced ordinance that usually resulted in a hefty fine and a few days in jail. In the 80s, the state and local ordinances were changed and limited to in the presence of women. In the late 80s, the state and local ordinances were changed and limited to in the presence of children. Today, that is a difficult offense to get filed unless it results in a fight.

What you are actually seeing used to be a slow and gradual erosion of all that was decent, moral, and Biblical in America, starting in the late 40s and early 50s. The erosion gathered speed in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. The erosion started to become a mudslide in the 90s, and it has become a flood since the year 2000. At the current rate of erosion, America will be a cesspool of filth and evil by the year 2010.

Christians still have a few champions trying to slow the flood, but they are being run over, made fun of, and usually are cast aside. It appears to me that Christians will be persecuted more and more with every passing day. We are supposed to shut up, especially in public, and retreat to our homes and churches. However, our homes and churches are also being assaulted by every imaginable evil. Some of the evil is easy to recognize, and some of the evil is veiled in deceit with very clever tricks of the devil. The tolerance of Christians to evil has risen during the same time frame to the extent that the Christians of the 50s and 60s would not recognize us. We are bombarded 24 hours a day from TV, news, and other media that has slowly desensitized our strong and loud objections into quiet and timid whimpering.

In short, America has turned its back on Almighty God and is becoming a nation of evil.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Sadly, so many try to say our nation was not built on a Christian foundation. But a simple read through the original charters proves otherwise. But the more I find information (like the court case above), the more I SEE just how much of a Christian foundation we had. "Had" (past tense) being the operative word.  

[ollie]

I have always wondered why we send people out of America to preach and teach instead of combing the fields for harvest in our own backyard. Perhaps that is what has happened? We have concentrated on other's backyards instead of cleaning our own. The neglect is showing and the weeds are growing.

Ollie

[Jemidon2004]

Just a few thoughts. From a teenage point of view i think that the media has a great deal to do with it, but the person behind it is satan. I think this interview with Anne Graham (Billy Graham's Daughter) would go right well for this thread. So here it is:

In light of the many perversions and jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke, it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school ... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK.

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK.

Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.

Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.

Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK. And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.

Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing?

I think that best sums up what the deal is. These are the signs of the times and America claims to be a nation under GOD but our actions speak louder than our words. I think ollie hit a good point when he wrote about sending people out instead of sending them into our own back yard, The weeds are growing and it's gonna be a bad day in heaven when Christ seperates the wheat from the tares. I honestly believe that America started heading down hill when prayer was taken out of schools and God was thrown by the wayside. As said above, Being the gentleman He is, He's sort of stepped back, and sadly so i believe that's happened. Each generation gets worser and worser as satan has gained his foothold. I see many of my friends who go get drunk every weekend, come to school high, each class i have at least 1 pregnant person next to me, then other days we have those who come in high as a jaybird. Now if that doesn't get our elder generation's attention i don't know what does, but many christians today have turned a blind eye to what's going on. I see alot of talk, but very little action to correct this problem. Just a few thoughts and my opinion on the situation. God Bless and may He guide you in your walk.

In His Service,
Joshua

[nChrist]

Sincereheart,

Thanks for a very interesting topic, one that should unite all of us in thinking about what we can and should do in service for our Lord and Saviour.

Ollie,

You are completely correct about America needing missionaries. America needs a massive and long lasting revival from coast to coast. As a nation and as individuals, we need to rededicate ourselves to Jesus and pray for forgiveness.

Joshua,

I'm pretty close to that elder person you talked about. The situation has had my attention for almost my entire life. I considered police work to be my ministry and what God called me to do.  I am very encouraged when I hear young people like you talk about what they want to do for the Lord. I also enjoyed the article you shared with us. From your perspective, you may believe that the Christians in my generation failed, and I would understand that thought completely. If this situation was compared to a football game, I would tell you that I'm disabled and someone else will have to carry the ball and do the rough work. I can still talk, write, vote, sign petitions, and encourage those who will be carrying the ball. I like the idea of someone young, strong, and bright like you to carry the ball.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Reba]

SH,

What happened  in a few too short words ...

The church sat back waiting for rapture and did NOTHING. We did not occupy.

[C C]

  I think if we as Christians UNITED all together stopped watching TV because it's so filled with garbage.

And then, in our moment of weakness when we do watch tv, TAKE CAREFUL NOTE NOT to buy any products we see advertised!!!   Especially if it was advertised during the hour before or the hour after ANYTHING that might mislead anyone to thinking bad things are good and good things are bad.

AND if we actually took down the names and addresses of the advertisers that are advertising the products we would like to buy, but they pay for advertising  while garbage is being aired, basically that product is paying for garbage to be aired.

If we all did these things, then we could make a difference.

THEN if we see a good show that is totally uplifting and giving up hope and faith and love, THEN we buy whatever product is being advertised whether we want it or not.  

It's called activism.

[Jemidon2004]

Agreeed wholeheartedly, but here's the thing i see some who get complacent in their day to day walks, that activism has no effect on them, and tom, i'd gladly carry the ball fer ya bro, that's what we're called to do, "Bear one another's burdens" in other words anything i can do to be of help i will...i got chores to finish ups, but i'm glad to see where this thread is going and i hope it continues to get attention. God Bless

In His Serivice

[ollie]

I think if we as Christians UNITED all together stopped watching TV because it's so filled with garbage.

And then, in our moment of weakness when we do watch tv, TAKE CAREFUL NOTE NOT to buy any products we see advertised!!!   Especially if it was advertised during the hour before or the hour after ANYTHING that might mislead anyone to thinking bad things are good and good things are bad.

AND if we actually took down the names and addresses of the advertisers that are advertising the products we would like to buy, but they pay for advertising  while garbage is being aired, basically that product is paying for garbage to be aired.

If we all did these things, then we could make a difference.

THEN if we see a good show that is totally uplifting and giving up hope and faith and love, THEN we buy whatever product is being advertised whether we want it or not.  

It's called activism.

Many of the commercials are unGodly in themselves along with the programs they sponser. They promote greed, selfishness, selfcenteredness, sexual promiscuity, etc., etc..

Ollie

[JudgeNot]

Many of the commercials are unGodly in themselves along with the programs they sponser. They promote greed, selfishness, selfcenteredness, sexual promiscuity, etc., etc..

Ollie

Such is life on Lucifer's world.    At least the Lord gives us "armor" against it.  

I worry so much for the kids.  

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Tornadoes, straight winds, severe thunderstorms, hail, and flash floods have been working pretty hard to tear up Oklahoma for about the last 10 days.  As a result, I've been watching weather warnings and watches on our local ABC Affiliate. I'm shocked - there is almost nothing but filth even during early prime-time when many children are still up. I'm an adult, but I don't wish to watch that garbage.

I learned a secret a couple of years ago. I got a Direct TV Satellite Channel Package, and a lot of the basic channels are completely clean. We can most definitely vote with what we buy, what we watch, and what we boycott. My wife and I belong to several organizations who use mass email to complain to advertisers about the shows they sponsor, and it works. If the advertisers don't cooperate, we quit buying their products. Several of the organizations have memberships in the millions, so they do listen to us.

Satellite is cheaper and much cleaner than cable. There's also a massive Christian network headed West from the East Coast. It is getting rave reviews and should eventually give Christians all over the country a chance to sign up and completely turn off the big boys with all of the money and dirt.

Love In Christ,
Tom  

[Heidi]

This is an interesting topic. I was just at another "Christian" website where I asserted that defaming Christ is slander. Slander is simply  a malicious intent to defame someone's character with no PROOF that the person is lying, only the desire to defmae him. It is very definitely slander to defame Christ's name, but since the Constitution subsucribes to religious freedom, I'm sure that will supercede any legal justification to prove slander in the case of Christ. One atheist actually threatened to take me to court, which I wouldn't be averse to, except that pointed out that is he wanted to spend his time and money to keep himself and others from eternal life then I had no interest in even engaging him in conversation. We simply have to expect persecution and accept that the laws of men don't take away the laws of God.