Calvinism

[David_james]

It is a given that man is born fallen from grace, and as a sinner by nature, he will thus sin, and as one dead in his sins (Gn. 2:17; Eph. 2:1), he will not seek after God unless the Father draw him, nor can he call upon God unless God grants him repentance (Jn. 6:44; Acts 11:18). By God's prevenient grace man is enabled to seek and call upon the Lord Jesus effectually for salvation, thereby be saved by grace thru faith, which is the gift of God. Of course, not today is even able to breathe apart from the grace of God, and the debate btwn the two major doctrines it whether God provides prevenient grace to all souls. It does seem based upon Rm. 9 and other texts that his is not the case, and although i am uncomfortable with having to read "of the elect" into every verse that declares God's desire that all be saved, or that Jesus will draw all of the elect to Him (Jn. 12:32), or that He is the antonment for all the world of the elect, etc., that is not my original question, which is,

 if Calvinism is correct as i understand it, then man is effectively damned because he was born with an Adamic nature as that is what makes him a sinner by nature, spiritually dead, and who cannot seek and gain acceptance with God.  I am seeking to reconcile that with the Bible's criteria for guilt, in which i do not see man ultimately  condemned for something that was not his personal fault.  Thus it would seem that all men and women must be in some mysterious way personally guilty of Adam's transgression if they are to condemned ultimately due to his fall.

God draws everyone to him. Why would he choose only some sinners?

[airIam2worship]

Hello everyone, I just want to add my 2cents 

First of all I believe that God created man to live eternally and to worship and honor and praise Him only. Adam's fall ruined it for all mankind. God already knew that this would happen. He is Omniscient, and Omnipresent so He knows all things and the end from the beginning. He made a way for the salvation of mankind, that Way is through His Son Jesus it is for all mankind not just for some. God is Love, Infinite, Undefiled, love and He is NO respecter of man. He chose all mankind, every human being is a tri-part being, he is a spirit who lives in a body and has a soul. Now, God's Holy Spirit calls each and every human being to Him, however it is up to the individual person to listen to  and hear that call. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and He will not impose on anyone anything they don want to do.

God loves all mankind, He created us. He does not want not even one of us to go to be lost or to choose satan. Mankind has freedom of choice, they can decide whether they will listen to that call or not.

Salvation is for all  who chooses Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. God did not set a limit on how many people shall be saved. He calls all of us. It is up to us to accept or reject that call. That is why if we reject that call we shall be unforgiven.

Does anyone honestly think that God would want some of His creation to sereve satan??
NO!!!!
God desires all men to be saved!

Mt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

That is why He is patient with us, that is why He gives us grace everyday.
That is why He wants the Gospel to be preached to everyone.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

[Soldier4Christ]

AMEN!

[David_james]

Hello everyone, I just want to add my 2cents 

First of all I believe that God created man to live eternally and to worship and honor and praise Him only. Adam's fall ruined it for all mankind. God already knew that this would happen. He is Omniscient, and Omnipresent so He knows all things and the end from the beginning. He made a way for the salvation of mankind, that Way is through His Son Jesus it is for all mankind not just for some. God is Love, Infinite, Undefiled, love and He is NO respecter of man. He chose all mankind, every human being is a tri-part being, he is a spirit who lives in a body and has a soul. Now, God's Holy Spirit calls each and every human being to Him, however it is up to the individual person to listen to  and hear that call. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and He will not impose on anyone anything they don want to do.

God loves all mankind, He created us. He does not want not even one of us to go to be lost or to choose satan. Mankind has freedom of choice, they can decide whether they will listen to that call or not.

Salvation is for all  who chooses Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. God did not set a limit on how many people shall be saved. He calls all of us. It is up to us to accept or reject that call. That is why if we reject that call we shall be unforgiven.

Does anyone honestly think that God would want some of His creation to sereve satan??
NO!!!!
God desires all men to be saved!

Mt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

That is why He is patient with us, that is why He gives us grace everyday.
That is why He wants the Gospel to be preached to everyone.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

AMEN!!!

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

There's always been a lot of confusion on this topic, but the answers are pretty simple.

ALMIGHTY GOD knew all in Eternity past, including the word I am typing right now. So, GOD has a "Foreknowledge" of all things. So, how confused would you be if someone said that I was "Predestined" to type the last sentence instead of saying that GOD knew what it would be a million years ago?

The above does not suggest that GOD commanded me to type a particular sentence, nor was I born as a robot programmed in advance. There are obviously things that can be added to this discussion that make it much more complex, but we can boil it down to simple terms and understand it. GOD tells us in the Holy Bible that HE doesn't wish any men to perish, rather that they would accept the free GIFT of Salvation. The Perfect Sacrifice of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS was for all mankind, and the BIBLE tells us just that. However, many will reject Salvation and JESUS CHRIST.

ALMIGHTY GOD knew which people would or would not accept JESUS CHRIST before the foundation of the world. This doesn't mean that GOD goes down a line of people and says, "You can accept JESUS, You can't accept JESUS". GOD left that for us to decide, but the GIFT is extended to all who will accept it.

There are many things in the Holy Bible that can make this a lengthy and difficult study if one wants to look at details, certain people, and certain times. I'll just mention a few factors that always enter into the study and discussion:  1) Israel distinct from the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, 2) Chosen, 3) Elect, 4) Foreordained, 5) Called, 6) Predestined.

I'll just give a few examples that make the discussion complex for study. However, I want to make it plain that the ultimate question is, "Did JESUS CHRIST die on the CROSS for all mankind, AND will any man or woman expressing true faith in JESUS CHRIST be rejected? First - JESUS CHRIST DID die on the Cross for all mankind. Second - NO man or woman expressing true faith in JESUS CHRIST will be rejected.

Did GOD specifically choose Moses, Peter, Paul, and Judas for a specific purpose? YES, GOD most certainly did.

Did GOD make a mistake in choosing Judas? NO, HE most certainly did NOT.

Did GOD know that Judas would betray HIM and when? YES, HE did. Did GOD make or command Judas betray HIM? NO!

Did GOD know that Peter would deny HIM three times before HIS Crucifixion? YES, HE knew, and HE told Peter before he did it, but Peter did it anyway. Did GOD make or command Peter deny HIM? NO!

David was "A man after GOD'S Own Heart", and David would be and was the King of Israel. Did GOD know that David would commit adultery? YES, HE did. Did GOD make or command David to commit adultery? NO - Most certainly NOT!

GOD chose Paul to become the Apostle to the Gentiles. Did GOD know that Paul had rejected HIM? Did GOD know that Paul had made a career out of hunting, persecuting, and killing Christians? YES, HE did. Did GOD make or command Paul to kill Christians? NO - Most certainly NOT!

Great hosts of people saw JESUS CHRIST perform miracles, signs, and wonders. Could some of the people watching think they were watching the power of the devil instead of GOD? YES, some did. Did GOD make them believe one way or the other? NO!

At the time of Paul's conversion, could he have believed the devil was dealing with him instead of GOD? YES - but Paul believed it was GOD. Did GOD make Paul believe one way or the other? NO!

Does GOD make mistakes?
NO!

I would hope that the examples will help everyone understand this. Let's talk a little bit about a modern example involving you if you are a Christian. If you are a Christian, you have the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD living in your heart. Have you ever felt a desire in your heart that you thought was from GOD to do something? If you've been a Christian very long, I'm sure that you have. As an example, have you ever felt a conviction that something is wrong and you don't want to do it? On the other side of the coin, have you ever felt a desire to do something good? I'm sure that the answer to both of these questions is yes. Could you have done the opposite of what you felt convicted to do? YES.

Think about the above paragraph again before you answer these questions for yourself:

1 - Has GOD called you to do various things in your life? Maybe you dismissed them as not coming from GOD, or maybe you decided not to do them whether they came from GOD or not. Isn't the answer to this question, "YES"?

2 - Can GOD communicate with you in various ways? If you believe that the Bible is GOD'S WORD, you should know that GOD communicates with you every time you hear, read, or study GOD'S WORD. All Christians receive guidance and direction from GOD'S WORD, but that doesn't mean that they always follow it. GOD could absolutely force you to do HIS Will, but does HE? NO. Don't you also communicate with GOD when you pray? YES.

Brothers and Sisters, if you are a Christian, you have a personal relationship with GOD and can come before HIS Throne of Grace in prayer 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. GOD extends HIS Love, Grace, and spiritual riches to us continually, but isn't it up to us how much of HIS riches we will accept? Our relationship with GOD can be anywhere from shallow to deep and weak to mature. Isn't this up to us? There are many things that GOD could make us do, but HE doesn't. As an example, does HE make us study HIS WORD? NO, but we should know that HE wants us to study HIS WORD.

Have you ever witnessed to someone and heard them say that GOD won't take them because they've done "this, this, and this" wrong in their lives? I'm sure that you have, but did they make a true statement? NO, this statement is false. JESUS CHRIST won't reject anyone who wants HIM as their LORD and SAVIOUR. If one of your friends knows that you're a Christian and they ask you to tell them about JESUS, is there a book somewhere that you need to check first to see if they can or can't have JESUS CHRIST as their SAVIOUR? NO - of course NOT! Do you need to get a list of sins they have committed first, check those sins off on a list, and see if they're eligible for Salvation or NOT first? NO - of course NOT! NOW, we're back to talking about common sense and the simple GOOD NEWS of Salvation, JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS. There is NO eligibility list, NO disqualifiers, and everyone is WELCOME!

Love In Christ,
Tom

   

[nChrist]

GOOD NEWS!

1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

[nChrist]

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
____________________________________________

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[David_james]

THAT IS A VERY BIG AMEN

[ibTina]

Hello everyone, I just want to add my 2cents 

First of all I believe that God created man to live eternally and to worship and honor and praise Him only. Adam's fall ruined it for all mankind. God already knew that this would happen. He is Omniscient, and Omnipresent so He knows all things and the end from the beginning. He made a way for the salvation of mankind, that Way is through His Son Jesus it is for all mankind not just for some. God is Love, Infinite, Undefiled, love and He is NO respecter of man. He chose all mankind, every human being is a tri-part being, he is a spirit who lives in a body and has a soul. Now, God's Holy Spirit calls each and every human being to Him, however it is up to the individual person to listen to  and hear that call. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and He will not impose on anyone anything they don want to do.

God loves all mankind, He created us. He does not want not even one of us to go to be lost or to choose satan. Mankind has freedom of choice, they can decide whether they will listen to that call or not.

Salvation is for all  who chooses Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. God did not set a limit on how many people shall be saved. He calls all of us. It is up to us to accept or reject that call. That is why if we reject that call we shall be unforgiven.

Does anyone honestly think that God would want some of His creation to sereve satan??
NO!!!!
God desires all men to be saved!

Mt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

That is why He is patient with us, that is why He gives us grace everyday.
That is why He wants the Gospel to be preached to everyone.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 A MEN SISTER!!

[Reba]

The view of God as all loving (as man sees loving) is a nice one.

God distroyed most of His creation.

Gen 7:21  And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:


Gods Word tell us of the killing of the first born of Egypt.

Exo 4:23  And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Gods Word tell us of the sending of the serpents to the wilderness.

Num 21:6  And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

The Word speaks of much killing and damnation.

Deu 3:2  And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.
Deu 3:6  And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
 Is Gods Word just as much as :
Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


I remember many Sunday school lessons about wars death How many were drowned in the Red Sea? The above is just a few scriptures that come to mind.

I have a hard time trying to understand why so many folks who believe Israelies are the chosen people of God do not see His own, the Christians, as chosen.

[Soldier4Christ]

Think on this a minute, Reba before you answer. Why are Christians God's chosen people?

[nChrist]

Reba Said:

I remember many Sunday school lessons about wars death How many were drowned in the Red Sea? The above is just a few scriptures that come to mind.

I have a hard time trying to understand why so many folks who believe Israelies are the chosen people of God do not see His own, the Christians, as chosen.

Hello Sister Reba,

The average person doesn't have a clue about the horrible and RIGHTEOUS WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD. Some Christians have a clue because of accounts in the Old Testament, but most of them don't understand it. I'll give you an example, but I first want to boldly state that GOD is the CREATOR, and HE has every right to demand obedience. HE also has every right to put to death anyone who disobeys HIM. Bluntly, GOD does as HE pleases in Heaven and on Earth, and HE has every right to do so.

ALMIGHTY GOD doesn't need to ask anyone permission to do a single thing, and HE doesn't need to explain HIS actions - but HE does in many cases. You mentioned Old Testament wars, and I thought you might mention GOD ordering slaughters - including babies and children. BUT, you didn't take it this far, so I will. Evil was slaughtered, but many people would argue the babies and children weren't evil and were killed anyway. They're RIGHT, and the babies and children went to GOD and never did become evil. They probably would have gone the way of their parents and become evil, but GOD kept them for HIMSELF through physical death.

The GREAT FLOOD killed every living thing in the world except what GOD specifically Saved, but this is NOTHING compared to the WRATH of GOD yet to come. The terror and horror of all of the wars combined are NOTHING compared to what is YET to come. Most of the world has disobeyed and rejected ALMIGHTY GOD - THE CREATOR! Surely, people of average intelligence should know that GOD'S patience will run out, and HE will eventually pour out RIGHTEOUS WRATH! That is going to happen, and the lake of fire will be filled with people being punished for Eternity. Everything GOD told us in the BIBLE is REAL, and everything GOD Promised to do will be DONE! The rivers of human blood at the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST will be quite real and most of the population of the earth will die. WHY? - They disobeyed and rejected GOD, and GOD told us what HE WOULD most certainly do thousands of years ago. GOD told us that the greatest armies in human history will come against Israel. One of those armies is 200 million. JESUS CHRIST will defeat them in PERSON! In fact, this might happen soon.

In terms of Israel, this one is real simple. Israel is GOD'S Chosen people, and that will never change. JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF is the anointed KING of Israel, and that will never change. GOD Promised that HE would restore Israel, and HE WILL! JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF said that HE will rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1,000 years, and HE most certainly WILL! GOD won't request permission from anyone because HE is already KING of KINGS - the CREATOR - ALMIGHTY GOD - and HE will NOT be denied! JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF will lead Heavenly Hosts into battle against enemies THAT WILL come against Israel! Israel will MOST OBVIOUSLY WIN because no power in the universe can defeat JESUS CHRIST - and that most certainly includes the devil. CHRIST will also lock the devil away for HIS 1,000 year rule and reign. Evil is dead and gone for later judgment. JESUS CHRIST will TAKE HIS THRONE as KING OF ISRAEL and restore Israel.

Sister Reba, these things will be done because GOD said they would. GOD makes promises and HE keeps them. It's really just as simple as this. There's another set of Promises GOD made to Christians, and those will also be kept perfectly. Here's another Promise from GOD that I didn't mention. Those who come against or try to harm Israel are damned by GOD. Those who help or assist Israel will be Blessed by GOD.

For a short summation:  WHY and HOW?  -  GOD said so, and HE CAN and WILL!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!

[Reba]

Think on this a minute, Reba before you answer. Why are Christians God's chosen people?

Because the Word says so:

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[Reba]

The average person doesn't have a clue about the horrible and RIGHTEOUS WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD. Some Christians have a clue because of accounts in the Old Testament, but most of them don't understand it. I'll give you an example, but I first want to boldly state that GOD is the CREATOR, and HE has every right to demand obedience. HE also has every right to put to death anyone who disobeys HIM. Bluntly, GOD does as HE pleases in Heaven and on Earth, and HE has every right to do so.
 

Amen

ALMIGHTY GOD doesn't need to ask anyone permission to do a single thing, and HE doesn't need to explain HIS actions - but HE does in many cases. You mentioned Old Testament wars, and I thought you might mention GOD ordering slaughters - including babies and children. BUT, you didn't take it this far, so I will.

Yes i did   

Deu 3:6  And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

Evil was slaughtered, but many people would argue the babies and children weren't evil and were killed anyway. They're RIGHT, and the babies and children went to GOD and never did become evil. They probably would have gone the way of their parents and become evil, but GOD kept them for HIMSELF through physical death.
 

 What scriptures do you draw the above statement from?

The GREAT FLOOD killed every living thing in the world except what GOD specifically Saved, 

yup  that is just how i see it  "What God specifically saved."

This is not an 'end times' thread so i Will  hold back   

Sister Reba, these things will be done because GOD said they would. GOD makes promises and HE keeps them. It's really just as simple as this. There's another set of Promises GOD made to Christians, and those will also be kept perfectly. Here's another Promise from GOD that I didn't mention. Those who come against or try to harm Israel are damned by GOD. Those who help or assist Israel will be Blessed by GOD.
 

 

We agree     But i see Israel as the Church.

Remember  please on the political side i  believe the USA should defend the nation of Israel. On the spiritual side: The Jewish religion fits the biblical description of antichrist;

1Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

For a short summation:  WHY and HOW?  -  GOD said so, and HE CAN and WILL!

Amen 

[airIam2worship]

Because the Word says so:

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Reba go back and see what God wrote:

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

US. Not some of of us, but us ANYONE WHO READS THESE WORDS

And who is us?

WE ARE!!! EVERY PERSON WHO HAS MADEA DECISION TO ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD AND SAVIOR. EVERYONE WHO CHOOSES TO ANSWER GOD'S CALL. IT IS GOD'S GOOD PLEASURE THAT EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD ANSWER HIS CALL.

GOD'S WORD IS THE LIVING WORD IT IS FOR EVERY HUMAN BEING THAT HAS EVER BEEN BORN AND HAS YET TO BE BORN. IT WAS NOT A PRIVATE INTERPRETATION JUST FOR THE DISCIPLES. IF IT WAS NOT INTENDED FOR ALL OF HUMANITY GOD WOULD NOT HAVE INSPIRED HIS WORD AND PROTECTED IT AND MADE IT TO BE INTERPRETED INTO ALMOST EVERY KNOWN LANGUAGE ON EARTH AND CAUSE IT TO BE AVAILABLE TO EVEN THE MOST DESTITUTE PERSON. AND YET BE THE NUMBER ONE BEST SELLER FOR CENTURIES.

DOUBTING GOD'S WORD IS DOUBTING GOD,

Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.