Calvinism

[Reba]

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Where in John 3 16  are the words    "God loves everyone"?

[Reba]

Eph 1:2  Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

[Soldier4Christ]

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Where in John 3 16  are the words    "God loves everyone"?

That is an easy one that anyone can see, "For God so loved the world". When scripture uses the word "world" here it uses it in the sense of the inhabitants thereof.

[daniel1212av]

Thanks for your replies, but they are not really addressing the issue. God's sovereignty is not being contested, nor is election or salvation by grace. The issue is reconciling God's criteria for guilt and punishment with the conclusions of Calvinism.

Knowing that all men are dead in Adam and thus sin (Total depravity and are unable to seek or call upon God due to their inherited Adamic nature, then they are effectively damned because of something that could not help, like a baby being damned due to her mother being a heroin addict. But God many times declares that while we may suffer the effects of our ancestors decisions, as in the aforementioned example, He does not actually punish us for them. But if we sin ultimately due to something we were not responsible for, and cannot choose the light,  then it seems the non-elect are ultimately condemned because of Adam's sin.   

[David_james]

That is an easy one that anyone can see, "For God so loved the world". When scripture uses the word "world" here it uses it in the sense of the inhabitants thereof.

Amen and thank you

Reb, all that is saying is that, God knows who is going to be saved. Example: God knows what I am going to eat tomorrow for supper, but I am still free to choose.
I choosed to accept Jesus but can still reject but never will. 

[Reba]

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Joh 17:6  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Joh 17:7  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

Joh 17:8  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh 17:10  And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.



And in the above verses the word ' world' has the same meaning....

[Reba]

Amen and thank you

Reb, all that is saying is that, God knows who is going to be saved. Example: God knows what I am going to eat tomorrow for supper, but I am still free to choose.
I choosed to accept Jesus but can still reject but never will. 

How does a sinfull person choose God?  To Choose God is not sinfull and what is the bibical discription of mans heart?

 Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Is man, in the fallen state , even looking for God?

Daved James    This is the name my husband wanted for our son       I wanted Jr and won   

Background on me  i am 60 raised in penticostal church Dad was a A of G pastor for ever     I have spent most of my life excepting Arminsm (SP) as TRUTH. 

I am but a sinfull creature my will is one of sin, Adam and Eve proved this. How can my sinfull nature,  sinfullness is the nature of man, choose someting that is not sinfull. 

He pulls from the clay  He sets our feet on the Rock.  He quickens.  we sin   

[David_james]

Easy, the sinful person asks God to come into their life, God does and works on this person. Unfortunatly so does satan.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen, David!

Is man, in the fallen state , even looking for God?

Yes, Jesus is at the door of all men's hearts knocking. It is up to each person whether they will listen or choose to ignore that calling.

Mat 11:16  But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 11:17  And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.


Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[David_james]

Amen brother Roger 

[Reba]

To ask God into ones life is not a sinfull request. Man in his unsaved state is sinfull. Sinfull man can not do someting Godly. My salvation does not depend on me but on Jesus Christ.  He paid the price i can glory in nothing but the Cross.    

Gal 6:14  But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

My salvation is of HIM not of my choosing, not via my effort, not because i was raised in a Christian home, not because i prayed Lord Jesus come into my heart.... But because HE first loved me  HIS blood HIS death.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 1:8  Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Eph 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:


2Th 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[Reba]

Yes, Jesus is at the door of all men's hearts knocking. It is up to each person whether they will listen or choose to ignore that calling.

The one knocking on the door is doing the  looking not the person inside.

God heardens the heart

 God is in control i am not....

Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion

[Reba]

When Adam sinned he hid from GOD he was not looking for salvation but hiding from it. God kept after him...

Thanks for the exchange guys it is getting late ...  see ya in afew days   

[Soldier4Christ]

To ask God into ones life is not a sinfull request. Man in his unsaved state is sinfull. Sinfull man can not do someting Godly. My salvation does not depend on me but on Jesus Christ.  He paid the price i can glory in nothing but the Cross.   

To ask God into ones life is in fact a sinful request for if man was not sinful he would not need to ask God into his life. This is why Jesus told us to ask.

Mat 7:7  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Salvation does depend fully on Jesus Christ for we cannot achieve salvation on our own. It is His righteousness, His shed blood. He still wants us to ask Him into our lives. He wants only those that willingly worship Him. To say that we don't need to ask Him into our lives would be to say that we have no choice and are being forced to worship Him.

[daniel1212av]

It is a given that man is born fallen from grace, and as a sinner by nature, he will thus sin, and as one dead in his sins (Gn. 2:17; Eph. 2:1), he will not seek after God unless the Father draw him, nor can he call upon God unless God grants him repentance (Jn. 6:44; Acts 11:18). By God's prevenient grace man is enabled to seek and call upon the Lord Jesus effectually for salvation, thereby be saved by grace thru faith, which is the gift of God. Of course, not today is even able to breathe apart from the grace of God, and the debate btwn the two major doctrines it whether God provides prevenient grace to all souls. It does seem based upon Rm. 9 and other texts that his is not the case, and although i am uncomfortable with having to read "of the elect" into every verse that declares God's desire that all be saved, or that Jesus will draw all of the elect to Him (Jn. 12:32), or that He is the antonment for all the world of the elect, etc., that is not my original question, which is,

 if Calvinism is correct as i understand it, then man is effectively damned because he was born with an Adamic nature as that is what makes him a sinner by nature, spiritually dead, and who cannot seek and gain acceptance with God.  I am seeking to reconcile that with the Bible's criteria for guilt, in which i do not see man ultimately  condemned for something that was not his personal fault.  Thus it would seem that all men and women must be in some mysterious way personally guilty of Adam's transgression if they are to condemned ultimately due to his fall.